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Are GMOs bad for you?
Replies
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Just a couple of notes as someone with a little experience in the field:
1. Not all studies funded by industry (but conducted by a university or other outside organization) are inherently bad or biased, vice versa for independent studies. Research conducted BY industry can be tricky, but again not all of it is bad. The best thing to do would be to look at the journal it's published in and the history of the researchers involved. Is it a respectable, high-impact journal like Science, Nature, PLOS One, PNAS, etc? Are the researchers known for high-quality work? Then it's probably ok.
2. GMO is a tool. Saying all GMOs are bad is like saying all face creams are bad. Each GMO does something different. Some aim to reduce herbicide use, some make corn sweeter, some improve flavor and storage time, others provide protection from insect damage. Some even produce Bt, which is a commonly used organic pesticide with high selectivity for caterpillars.
3. Farmers aren't made of gold, and pesticides are expensive. Even using small amounts of the industrial versions (aka the stuff the farmers use not what you buy at stores) for research can get $$$ (although most companies will donate material for research if you ask). Farmers are probably not wasting hundreds or thousands of dollars on herbicides/pesticides if they don't need to due to GMO crops (which are also not necessarily cheap).
4. Agricultural companies are not evil. Yes, they want to turn a profit, but they also want to maintain effectiveness of their products and not get hit with tons of litigation for literally poisoning the global population. Sure, sometimes the research comes late (ex. DDT), but the current system of pesticide registration usually takes 10+ years before a product actually reaches the market, including extensive research on safety. GMOs have been around for a long time, much longer than people realize. And yet the most valid arguments against GMOs are not for human safety, but for ecological reasons such as having roundup-resistant weeds.
1. Agree not all industry funded studies are bad...but they are all biased. There is no way they couldn't be. Agree not all independent studies are good..nor are they all unbiased...some are biased the other way. As well as reputation of publisher/researcher, I think conflicts of interest are important to consider. Publishers and/or researchers who have conflicts of interest are much more likely to skew results in favour of whoever is throwing money at them or they have loyalty towards.
2. Yes GMO is a tool. I don't think they are all bad, I personally think that none have been proven to be good for the environment or safe for consumption. The safety testing should be at same level as tests for new drugs....right now GMOs are being introduced with zero long term studies on health impact or environmental impact. With no labelling it is impossible to trace whether any of the anecdotal reports of health issues are due to GMOs or not. Some well respected animal studies have shown health problems linked to GMOs. Even if we have been astoundingly lucky so far, we have no way to quickly find a single "bad" GMO either before or after it hits the market and no process is perfect. For the environment, GMOs have not delivered on the higher crop yield, insect repelling, less pesticide using, drought resistant, etc etc promises. In fact, US farmers are beginning to move away from GMOs as much as they can because the GMOs have higher production costs (more expensive seed, need more fertiliser, no less pesticide in some cases more pesticide, more susceptible to extreme weather conditions, etc).
3. As addressed above, yep farmers are not made of $$$, which is one reason why some are now switching from a GMO to conventional or organic crops as a result of a purely economic business decision.
4. I do think Big Agra engages in unethical business practices. I wouldn't say they are "evil" but they are certainly very willing to talk up their products beyond what there is scientific evidence, fight against consumers even having a the freedom to choose whether or not to buy/eat their products, spend millions lobbying for no regulation and immunity from poisoning innocent consumers. It's not exactly ethical neighbourly behaviour and should not be condoned.
1. To say they're all biased is flat-out wrong. I personally know people who have conducted such industry-funded research, and they didn't care what our results were, as long as they were accurate. Few agricultural research programs can exist without at least some funding from industry. The funding goes through sometimes years before the research is finished, so it's out of the company's hands once they sign it over. Plus the company is interested, financially and ethically, if results counter-indicate current usage.
2. Yes, GMOs have delivered higher crop yield, inset repelling, less pesticide-using, drought resistant crops. Ask farmers who plant corn, soy, or cotton.
3. Organic is not more economical due to losses and expensive alternative management strategies. Certain conventional crops can be, but do realize there isn't gmo everything.
4. Won't argue on this as I think it's a problem with most businesses in a free market/capitalist system. But again, no more evil than literally every other company/industry.
1. We'll have to agree to disagree on the bias issue. History tells us that the scientific studies on tobacco funded by the tobacco industry were in fact biased. So it's not outlandish to say that GMO studies funded by the GMO industry are similarly biased. For the record, I also think organic studies funded by the organic industry are also biased.
2. Ahhh well you see GMO crops have not delivered...and I'm getting my info from farmers. They say the crops worked at first, but within five years the yields were down and they needed to ramp up pesticide use dramatically. A growing number are moving away from GMOs because the yields are no different, the same pesticides are needed, the cost of seeds are much higher than non GMO, and nonGMO can sell at a premium. They're doing it purely as a business decision.
https://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/2015/02/04/money-talks-some-farmers-go-non-gmo-because-of-price-premiums-not-rejection-of-biotech/
http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/american-farmers-abandoning-genetically-modified-seeds-non-gmo-crops-productive-profitable/
3. Organic can be more profitable than GMO when you take into account all the costs of production vs. crop prices. Farmers look at maximising returns per acre...yes it may be higher cost to go organic, but the profits are higher. It is also a farming model better suited to small rural farmers..so organic supports small family businesses. I do know there isn't gmo everything since I did say farmers were moving towards organic and conventional non GMO crops.
http://www.non-gmoreport.com/articles/january-2015/more-farmers-plant-non-gmo-this-year-some-considering-organic.php
https://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/2016/11/30/usda-organic-corn-soy-profitable-conventional-crops-despite-higher-costs/
This isn't following a scientific method - you are biased in your analysis, constructing argumentum by strawman, and subscribing to conspiracy theorem rather than connecting the points of data.
1. ....and? It is outlandish until proven otherwise. This is pure biased conjecture.
2. Yield of corn has quadrupled. Bushels / acre have increased from ~50 bushel/acre observed in 1960 to ~200 bushel/acre in 2010.
3. The profits are only higher as this limited scale market serves a consumer base with disposable income. The market has reached capacity and has reached maximum expansion. This is a fad and will not survive an economic downturn.
1. No, bias exists both conscious and subconscious it is part of the human condition. It has been proven that it exists many times over. Funding source does drive a bias towards the vested interest of that funding source. Bias is the reason behind most ethics laws and regulations. Most corruption investigations "follow the money trail" as corruption is simply a type of bias that affects government operations.
2. Now who is biased. You disagreed that nonGMO yields were as good as GMO yields and said to me just go ask the farmers. So, I got sources with farmers saying they get an avg of 15-30 bushels an acre more with nonGMO vs GMO corn. But that didn't match your bias that GMOs are exactly as advertised. So now you're tossing out an (unsupported) historical statistic of 1960-2010 (even though for most of that time, the majority of crops were non GMO as for the first 30yrs of that 50yr span GMOs weren't even grown). If you look closer at the causes behind the historical trend, you'll find that the yield increase is due to farming methods not GMO vs nonGMO. Farming methods are a lot more high tech than they used to be, they have also incorporated organic principles like crop rotation and no till planting. Too a recent study comparing crop yield gains in US vs Europe showed that it was the advances in farming methods not GMOs because Europe had just as much a gain as the US and they don't grow GMOs.
3. GMOs used to be a niche market....so it doesn't matter that something is a niche market or not. What matters is that the farmers are responding to consumer demand (which is what is driving prices up). Organic foods already survived and thrived through the Great Recession...so yeah they'll be around after the next economic downturn.
1. Stay on topic please. Strawman construction serves no purpose.
2. There are a multitude of variables in agriculture that have resulted in a 200% increase yield in corn production of which GMO must be included. To further refute anti-GMO nonsense can you differentiate between hybrid seed, original line and "GMO"? Substantiate your claim with data.
3. Did you mean to state organic? Market capacity is a critical business parameter. A business is either expanding, stable, or downsizing - all based on market forces. Organic farming expanded based upon faulty logic and junk science. There is no demonstrable difference between the end products. Organic is nothing more than marketing woo playing on fears of the science illiterate.
I look at the organic industry in the same light as the diet industry - much emotion, no data, little logic, but outstanding marketing preying on the ignorance of the masses through a massive disinformation campaign.
Are you attempting to get closer to the truth or trying to be right?
1. Ok agree to disagree. Calling it a straw man repeatedly doesn't make you more credible. It just means you don't have a leg to stand on, so you cry "strawman!" so you don't have to actually discuss the issue of bias.
2. How about you provide some data to back up your assertion? I've provided plenty of data to back up mine in the form of farmers reports. So far all you've done is a "no you're wrong" statement without any data to back it up. While you're at it, explain to me why farmers are switching from GMO to nonGMO or organic since you refuse to accept the message from the farmers mouths that the GMO crops are not delivering the higher yields and pest protection as advertised.
3. Now your bias against organic farming reveals itself, and this from someone who has declared that bias doesn't exist! And that my contention that bias exists is just a strawman. Lol. I am almost peeing my pants with laughter here. You expect me to take you seriously when you write stuff like "Organic farming expanded based on faulty logic and junk science"..."organic marketing is nothing more than marketing woo playing on fears of the science illiterate" I haven't spoken out for or against organic on this thread. I have merely stated that more farmers are switching from GMO to nonGMO and organic for purely economic reasons and I backed it up with data. I'm not interested in debating the pros and cons of farming methods with a fanatic...fanatics tend to be overly biased.1 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Organic food production has not actually reached maximum capacity. In fact there is a shortfall and the US is importing organic grains from places like Romania.
These two sentences don't seem to go together.
Food production reaching capacity is about how much can be produced (i.e., supply).
A shortfall is about demand.
That there is demand beyond the current point says nothing about maximum supply. It does affect price.
US wheat isn't GMO, so you seem to be mixing two separate issue, organic and non GMO. (Most US sweet corn that's eaten as corn isn't either. Lots of GMO corn is grown, but for other uses.)
I was responding to a prior poster using her terminology. The first sentence is her sentence verbatim. She was saying organic is a fad and that it will fade away. I agree she used the wrong terminology but was being polite.0 -
kaylajane11 wrote: »In the wise words of James Fell:
Pretty much sums up my feelings on GMOs.
The two issues of GMOs and world starvation are not related. People aren't starving to death because someone chooses to eat or not eat GMOs. There is no correlation.0 -
1. No, bias exists both conscious and subconscious it is part of the human condition. It has been proven that it exists many times over. Funding source does drive a bias towards the vested interest of that funding source. Bias is the reason behind most ethics laws and regulations. Most corruption investigations "follow the money trail" as corruption is simply a type of bias that affects government operations.
I think it's quite clear you don't understand how funding works in research/academia. As I noted before, I'm talking about outside research institutions like universities that conduct research projects partially (common) or wholly (less common) funded by industry. When we get funding for a project from industry, also realize we're probably also getting funding from taxpayers/the university, from non-industry groups (think National Science Foundation, Xerces society, etc). None of those funding sources bias our results because it is literally our job to conduct objective, quality research. There are a few instances where this is not the case, but it is certainly not the standard. Unless you're accusing all of academic research of catering to "big ag", in which case good luck with finding non-industry, non-academic science to base your views on.
Look, I had a team of four specialists and was responsible for a portfolio that averaged around 3,000 research projects going on at once. Yes, most also had industry partnering on the funding. We would have multiple Universities studying the same thing...all with different mixes/sources of funds....and most of the time there was a "coincidence" of the University results being favourable towards whatever industry funds had supported that University's research. We'd all joke about it at the office, about how when we awarded these grants we could accurately predict the results based on the funds mix before research was even underway. It happened far too often to be a coincidence. I could go on about back door crack deals that cropped up on many research projects that forced us to shut them down but those are the outliers, not the standard. So based on my experience, bias both conscious and unconscious is a very real thing.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »
That's actually an oversimplification and not technically correct at all. Cross breeding is nothing like artificial manipulation of the DNA.trainervash wrote: »everything you eat has been genetically modified technically through forced evolution via mass production & consumerism.
How about forcing mutations by exposing them to radioactive material? This is considered a "traditional", non-GMO method.
I consider mutagenesis to be a rudimentary form of GE. I don't view it as a traditional nonGMO/nonGE method.0 -
No, I do understand how funding/research works in academia. I was a Grants Officer with unlimited authority. I oversaw billions in grant money going to academia for R&D. Before that as a college student, I wrote and submitted a grant request for CMU. You have an outsiders perspective, I have an insiders perspective.
Cool, but I'm a current researcher currently managing grants and currently working in the field...so things might have changed since you were around. And if you were seeing results that indicated that there were below-table deals or changes being made to research that didn't accurately reflect the results and instead favored industry, it was your moral imperative to act and prevent them from biasing the research. As it stands, my institution and the many institutions I've worked with/know do not have such prevalent biases. Again, there's no point when the money is already in the University's system, the industry can't take it back and it would look extremely bad for them to suddenly stop funding a lab that had results that didn't suit the industry as that would be a giant red flag. If you, as the grants officer with unlimited authority, failed to stop industry from influencing research that you were tasked with overseeing, that's on you. Most institutions I know have stringent conflict of interest and academic integrity policies that would prohibit such actions.
Just some insight from another insider...
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No, I do understand how funding/research works in academia. I was a Grants Officer with unlimited authority. I oversaw billions in grant money going to academia for R&D. Before that as a college student, I wrote and submitted a grant request for CMU. You have an outsiders perspective, I have an insiders perspective.
Cool, but I'm a current researcher currently managing grants and currently working in the field...so things might have changed since you were around. And if you were seeing results that indicated that there were below-table deals or changes being made to research that didn't accurately reflect the results and instead favored industry, it was your moral imperative to act and prevent them from biasing the research. As it stands, my institution and the many institutions I've worked with/know do not have such prevalent biases. Again, there's no point when the money is already in the University's system, the industry can't take it back and it would look extremely bad for them to suddenly stop funding a lab that had results that didn't suit the industry as that would be a giant red flag. If you, as the grants officer with unlimited authority, failed to stop industry from influencing research that you were tasked with overseeing, that's on you. Most institutions I know have stringent conflict of interest and academic integrity policies that would prohibit such actions.
Just some insight from another insider...
Oh, I shut down numerous studies...but it's impossible to catch everyone who violates ethical standards...as you can't go on a witch hunt and need irrefutable proof. I think bias, personal bias, is especially bad in the GMO arena. I have never seen science so polarised and political. I'll read a scientific study supporting one side, then go read a critical review of the study by the other side. Just because I am trying to get a balanced view. Too often, and both sides do this, the review will be 60% character assassination of the researcher followed by some comments on the science itself. It's hard for me to take any scientist comments or even research as independent when they've spent a lot of text calling another scientist a "Monsanto paid shill" or "Anti-GMO activist-scientist". There is too much emotion in looking at GMOs. They're just a tool! And just because say one GMO variety isn't so good, doesn't mean they're all that way. I read an opinion piece that literally said the results of a scientific study of GMO Bt maize were contradicted by a study on a HT type of GMO soybean...what the hey? They're two different things? How can a study of one have any bearing on the study of the other? I think it's gotten to that both sides are in a winner takes all mentality...whoever wins proves all GMOs are good/bad when really each GMO should be assessed on its own merits or failings.0 -
No, I do understand how funding/research works in academia. I was a Grants Officer with unlimited authority. I oversaw billions in grant money going to academia for R&D. Before that as a college student, I wrote and submitted a grant request for CMU. You have an outsiders perspective, I have an insiders perspective.
Cool, but I'm a current researcher currently managing grants and currently working in the field...so things might have changed since you were around. And if you were seeing results that indicated that there were below-table deals or changes being made to research that didn't accurately reflect the results and instead favored industry, it was your moral imperative to act and prevent them from biasing the research. As it stands, my institution and the many institutions I've worked with/know do not have such prevalent biases. Again, there's no point when the money is already in the University's system, the industry can't take it back and it would look extremely bad for them to suddenly stop funding a lab that had results that didn't suit the industry as that would be a giant red flag. If you, as the grants officer with unlimited authority, failed to stop industry from influencing research that you were tasked with overseeing, that's on you. Most institutions I know have stringent conflict of interest and academic integrity policies that would prohibit such actions.
Just some insight from another insider...
Sorry about calling you an outsider..I missed that you were a researcher the first time around.1 -
http://academicsreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Academics-Review_Organic-Marketing-Report1.pdf
CONCLUSION
This review of more than 100 published academic and market
research studies clearly shows that food safety and health concerns
are the primary drivers of consumer organic purchasing. Further,
research reveals that other factors, such as sustainability, environmental
claims and even organic certification, do not motivate general
consumers to purchase organic products in the absence of health
risk claims. Research by USDA, the organic industry and independent
academic organizations also confirms that the use of the USDA
Organic Seal is critical to conveying confidence in organic labeling
claims, which the majority of consumers mistakenly believe to mean
healthier and safer food products.
This research is well known and shared throughout the organic
marketing industry via trade shows, market research publication,
trade and mainstream media publications. Organic industry CEO’s,
marketing directors and research consultants are quoted in sales
presentations, financial analyst meetings and news interviews acknowledging
consumer food scares and health risk concerns are key
components to organic market growth. Some openly acknowledge
that the industry should engage in fear-based marketing. Extensive,
annually published trade and market research materials document
the need to broaden organic sales growth to consumer segments for
whom creating concerns about personal health and food safety are
requirements to get them to switch from more affordable conventional
to higher priced organic foods.
This research is translated into organic marketing campaigns that
imply or directly assert food health and safety risks with foods produced
using competing conventional practices. Our review of the
top 50 organic food marketers finds these practices to be pervasive
throughout the industry and not simply by a few bad actors.
This disparagement marketing via absence claims with direct and
implied health risk allegations is found on food packaging and labeling
claims, in-store marketing displays, online campaigns, media
relations, and extensive advertising in print, radio and television. Additionally,
research reveals that anti-GMO and anti-pesticide advocacy
groups promoting organic alternatives have combined annual
budgets exceeding $2.5 billion annually and that organic industry
funders are found among the major donors to these groups.
This review of published research, documented organic and natural
produce industry practices and advocacy collaborations shows
widespread, collaborative and pervasive industry marketing activities,
both transparent and covert, disparaging competing conventional
foods and agriculture practices. Further, these activities have
contributed to false and misleading consumer health and safety
perceptions influencing food purchase decisions. These findings
suggest a widespread organic and natural products industry pattern
of research-informed and intentionally-deceptive marketing and
advocacy related practices that have generated hundreds of billions
in revenues.
Finally, the findings strongly suggest that this multi-decade public
disinformation campaign has been conducted with the implied use
and approval of the U.S. government endorsed USDA Organic Seal in
direct contradiction to U.S. government stated policy for use of said
seal. USDA’s own research confirms that food safety and health risk
concerns associated with conventional foods combined with consumer
trust and confidence in the USDA Organic Seal are responsible
for the significant growth and corresponding profits enjoyed by
the organic industry since the seal’s launch in 2001. This use of the
USDA Organic Seal to convey superior food nutrition, safety or quality
attributes of organic over conventional foods contradicts both the
stated USDA intention for the National Organic Standards Program
and the extensive body of published academic research which show
conventional foods to be as safe and nutritious as higher priced organic
products.
As a result, the American taxpayer funded national organic program
is playing an ongoing role in misleading consumers into
spending billions of dollars in organic purchasing decisions based on
false and misleading health, safety and quality claims. Further, U.S.
government agencies, including the U.S. Food and Drug Administration,
Federal Trade Commission and U.S. Department of Agriculture,
which entrusted with the authority to enforce truthful, non-misleading
consumer protections against such abuses have either ignored
or become complicit in these marketing abuses.
These combined marketing and advocacy expenditures disparaging
conventional food health and safety by organic food marketers
can be estimated to be in the billions of dollars annually. However,
it would be interesting to see what would happen if a corresponding
product disparagement campaign by conventional food industry
competitors was run. It is likely any similar types of disparagement
marketing and use of false or misleading health claims to increase
conventional sales would result in condemning media headlines and
editorials, mass tort litigation and congressional hearings.
Very interesting. I had thought only the antiGMO camp had conspiracy theorists in it but it seems that I was mistaken.0 -
Not everybody gets their information from yogurt ads. Instead of spending time listing all of the reasons why that article says nothing of substance related to the safety or lack thereof of conventional produce vs organic (no data to support either side), I looked into the so called non-profit organization and authors who wrote it. All that needs to be said is that the non-profit puppets who wrote that piece of propaganda had their funding arranged by Monsanto. Academics review existed solely for the purpose of writing that 'article' and they died in 2015 when this truth came out.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stacy-malkan/monsanto-fingerprints-fou_b_10757524.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/06/us/food-industry-enlisted-academics-in-gmo-lobbying-war-emails-show.html3 -
CorneliusPhoton wrote: »
Not everybody gets their information from yogurt ads. Instead of spending time listing all of the reasons why that article says nothing of substance related to the safety or lack thereof of conventional produce vs organic (no data to support either side), I looked into the so called non-profit organization and authors who wrote it. All that needs to be said is that the non-profit puppets who wrote that piece of propaganda had their funding arranged by Monsanto. Academics review existed solely for the purpose of writing that 'article' and they died in 2015 when this truth came out.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stacy-malkan/monsanto-fingerprints-fou_b_10757524.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/06/us/food-industry-enlisted-academics-in-gmo-lobbying-war-emails-show.html
Ahhh, Huffington Post and New York Times. Two well-known and highly respected scientific journals.
/sarcasm7 -
kaylajane11 wrote: »In the wise words of James Fell:
Pretty much sums up my feelings on GMOs.
The two issues of GMOs and world starvation are not related. People aren't starving to death because someone chooses to eat or not eat GMOs. There is no correlation.
The point of the Fell quote is that GMOs are being used to more affordably and quickly feed starving or malnourished people. It's easy to be anti-GMO when you are shopping at WF and farmer's markets. When your kids are starving in a poor village somewhere, your life may very well depend on GMOs. #firstworldproblems10 -
I have never seen science so polarised and political. I'll read a scientific study supporting one side, then go read a critical review of the study by the other side. Just because I am trying to get a balanced view. Too often, and both sides do this, the review will be 60% character assassination of the researcher followed by some comments on the science itself. It's hard for me to take any scientist comments or even research as independent when they've spent a lot of text calling another scientist a "Monsanto paid shill" or "Anti-GMO activist-scientist". There is too much emotion in looking at GMOs. They're just a tool! And just because say one GMO variety isn't so good, doesn't mean they're all that way. I read an opinion piece that literally said the results of a scientific study of GMO Bt maize were contradicted by a study on a HT type of GMO soybean...what the hey? They're two different things? How can a study of one have any bearing on the study of the other? I think it's gotten to that both sides are in a winner takes all mentality...whoever wins proves all GMOs are good/bad when really each GMO should be assessed on its own merits or failings.
I'm 100% ok with this as I feel it reflects a more balanced approach to the gmo issue. I think your earlier statements sounded more like "all research scientists are in the back pocket of big ag", which I'm sure we've both heard about a million times and over which I tend to get defensive. My research mainly deals with ag chemical companies, so we constantly have to battle the perception that we're sitting in our offices cooking up biased data while drinking espressos from a machine sent to us by "big ag". It's also why my lab and others are really trying to avoid the smear campaign when writing papers, because while there are people with extreme biases (both ways) in my field, it's not worth it within the scientific community to constantly be at each other's throats.
Couldn't agree with you more, which is why I like the tool analogy. You can have a crappy nails that will give you tetanus, or you can have good nails that will hold for years and never rust. GMOs aren't inherently bad or good, just like pesticides, medicine, food, etc.when really each GMO should be assessed on its own merits or failings.2 -
CorneliusPhoton wrote: »
Not everybody gets their information from yogurt ads. Instead of spending time listing all of the reasons why that article says nothing of substance related to the safety or lack thereof of conventional produce vs organic (no data to support either side), I looked into the so called non-profit organization and authors who wrote it. All that needs to be said is that the non-profit puppets who wrote that piece of propaganda had their funding arranged by Monsanto. Academics review existed solely for the purpose of writing that 'article' and they died in 2015 when this truth came out.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stacy-malkan/monsanto-fingerprints-fou_b_10757524.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/06/us/food-industry-enlisted-academics-in-gmo-lobbying-war-emails-show.html
Ahhh, Huffington Post and New York Times. Two well-known and highly respected scientific journals.
/sarcasm
Can you comment on the actual content of the post?
Should "Academics Review" be respected? And Why?0 -
CorneliusPhoton wrote: »
Not everybody gets their information from yogurt ads. Instead of spending time listing all of the reasons why that article says nothing of substance related to the safety or lack thereof of conventional produce vs organic (no data to support either side), I looked into the so called non-profit organization and authors who wrote it. All that needs to be said is that the non-profit puppets who wrote that piece of propaganda had their funding arranged by Monsanto. Academics review existed solely for the purpose of writing that 'article' and they died in 2015 when this truth came out.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stacy-malkan/monsanto-fingerprints-fou_b_10757524.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/06/us/food-industry-enlisted-academics-in-gmo-lobbying-war-emails-show.htmlJust a couple of notes as someone with a little experience in the field:
1. Not all studies funded by industry (but conducted by a university or other outside organization) are inherently bad or biased, vice versa for independent studies. Research conducted BY industry can be tricky, but again not all of it is bad. The best thing to do would be to look at the journal it's published in and the history of the researchers involved. Is it a respectable, high-impact journal like Science, Nature, PLOS One, PNAS, etc? Are the researchers known for high-quality work? Then it's probably ok.
2. GMO is a tool. Saying all GMOs are bad is like saying all face creams are bad. Each GMO does something different. Some aim to reduce herbicide use, some make corn sweeter, some improve flavor and storage time, others provide protection from insect damage. Some even produce Bt, which is a commonly used organic pesticide with high selectivity for caterpillars.
3. Farmers aren't made of gold, and pesticides are expensive. Even using small amounts of the industrial versions (aka the stuff the farmers use not what you buy at stores) for research can get $$$ (although most companies will donate material for research if you ask). Farmers are probably not wasting hundreds or thousands of dollars on herbicides/pesticides if they don't need to due to GMO crops (which are also not necessarily cheap).
4. Agricultural companies are not evil. Yes, they want to turn a profit, but they also want to maintain effectiveness of their products and not get hit with tons of litigation for literally poisoning the global population. Sure, sometimes the research comes late (ex. DDT), but the current system of pesticide registration usually takes 10+ years before a product actually reaches the market, including extensive research on safety. GMOs have been around for a long time, much longer than people realize. And yet the most valid arguments against GMOs are not for human safety, but for ecological reasons such as having roundup-resistant weeds.
1. Agree not all industry funded studies are bad...but they are all biased. There is no way they couldn't be. Agree not all independent studies are good..nor are they all unbiased...some are biased the other way. As well as reputation of publisher/researcher, I think conflicts of interest are important to consider. Publishers and/or researchers who have conflicts of interest are much more likely to skew results in favour of whoever is throwing money at them or they have loyalty towards.
2. Yes GMO is a tool. I don't think they are all bad, I personally think that none have been proven to be good for the environment or safe for consumption. The safety testing should be at same level as tests for new drugs....right now GMOs are being introduced with zero long term studies on health impact or environmental impact. With no labelling it is impossible to trace whether any of the anecdotal reports of health issues are due to GMOs or not. Some well respected animal studies have shown health problems linked to GMOs. Even if we have been astoundingly lucky so far, we have no way to quickly find a single "bad" GMO either before or after it hits the market and no process is perfect. For the environment, GMOs have not delivered on the higher crop yield, insect repelling, less pesticide using, drought resistant, etc etc promises. In fact, US farmers are beginning to move away from GMOs as much as they can because the GMOs have higher production costs (more expensive seed, need more fertiliser, no less pesticide in some cases more pesticide, more susceptible to extreme weather conditions, etc).
3. As addressed above, yep farmers are not made of $$$, which is one reason why some are now switching from a GMO to conventional or organic crops as a result of a purely economic business decision.
4. I do think Big Agra engages in unethical business practices. I wouldn't say they are "evil" but they are certainly very willing to talk up their products beyond what there is scientific evidence, fight against consumers even having a the freedom to choose whether or not to buy/eat their products, spend millions lobbying for no regulation and immunity from poisoning innocent consumers. It's not exactly ethical neighbourly behaviour and should not be condoned.
1. To say they're all biased is flat-out wrong. I personally know people who have conducted such industry-funded research, and they didn't care what our results were, as long as they were accurate. Few agricultural research programs can exist without at least some funding from industry. The funding goes through sometimes years before the research is finished, so it's out of the company's hands once they sign it over. Plus the company is interested, financially and ethically, if results counter-indicate current usage.
2. Yes, GMOs have delivered higher crop yield, inset repelling, less pesticide-using, drought resistant crops. Ask farmers who plant corn, soy, or cotton.
3. Organic is not more economical due to losses and expensive alternative management strategies. Certain conventional crops can be, but do realize there isn't gmo everything.
4. Won't argue on this as I think it's a problem with most businesses in a free market/capitalist system. But again, no more evil than literally every other company/industry.
1. We'll have to agree to disagree on the bias issue. History tells us that the scientific studies on tobacco funded by the tobacco industry were in fact biased. So it's not outlandish to say that GMO studies funded by the GMO industry are similarly biased. For the record, I also think organic studies funded by the organic industry are also biased.
2. Ahhh well you see GMO crops have not delivered...and I'm getting my info from farmers. They say the crops worked at first, but within five years the yields were down and they needed to ramp up pesticide use dramatically. A growing number are moving away from GMOs because the yields are no different, the same pesticides are needed, the cost of seeds are much higher than non GMO, and nonGMO can sell at a premium. They're doing it purely as a business decision.
https://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/2015/02/04/money-talks-some-farmers-go-non-gmo-because-of-price-premiums-not-rejection-of-biotech/
http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/american-farmers-abandoning-genetically-modified-seeds-non-gmo-crops-productive-profitable/
3. Organic can be more profitable than GMO when you take into account all the costs of production vs. crop prices. Farmers look at maximising returns per acre...yes it may be higher cost to go organic, but the profits are higher. It is also a farming model better suited to small rural farmers..so organic supports small family businesses. I do know there isn't gmo everything since I did say farmers were moving towards organic and conventional non GMO crops.
http://www.non-gmoreport.com/articles/january-2015/more-farmers-plant-non-gmo-this-year-some-considering-organic.php
https://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/2016/11/30/usda-organic-corn-soy-profitable-conventional-crops-despite-higher-costs/
This isn't following a scientific method - you are biased in your analysis, constructing argumentum by strawman, and subscribing to conspiracy theorem rather than connecting the points of data.
1. ....and? It is outlandish until proven otherwise. This is pure biased conjecture.
2. Yield of corn has quadrupled. Bushels / acre have increased from ~50 bushel/acre observed in 1960 to ~200 bushel/acre in 2010.
3. The profits are only higher as this limited scale market serves a consumer base with disposable income. The market has reached capacity and has reached maximum expansion. This is a fad and will not survive an economic downturn.
1. No, bias exists both conscious and subconscious it is part of the human condition. It has been proven that it exists many times over. Funding source does drive a bias towards the vested interest of that funding source. Bias is the reason behind most ethics laws and regulations. Most corruption investigations "follow the money trail" as corruption is simply a type of bias that affects government operations.
2. Now who is biased. You disagreed that nonGMO yields were as good as GMO yields and said to me just go ask the farmers. So, I got sources with farmers saying they get an avg of 15-30 bushels an acre more with nonGMO vs GMO corn. But that didn't match your bias that GMOs are exactly as advertised. So now you're tossing out an (unsupported) historical statistic of 1960-2010 (even though for most of that time, the majority of crops were non GMO as for the first 30yrs of that 50yr span GMOs weren't even grown). If you look closer at the causes behind the historical trend, you'll find that the yield increase is due to farming methods not GMO vs nonGMO. Farming methods are a lot more high tech than they used to be, they have also incorporated organic principles like crop rotation and no till planting. Too a recent study comparing crop yield gains in US vs Europe showed that it was the advances in farming methods not GMOs because Europe had just as much a gain as the US and they don't grow GMOs.
3. GMOs used to be a niche market....so it doesn't matter that something is a niche market or not. What matters is that the farmers are responding to consumer demand (which is what is driving prices up). Organic foods already survived and thrived through the Great Recession...so yeah they'll be around after the next economic downturn.
1. Stay on topic please. Strawman construction serves no purpose.
2. There are a multitude of variables in agriculture that have resulted in a 200% increase yield in corn production of which GMO must be included. To further refute anti-GMO nonsense can you differentiate between hybrid seed, original line and "GMO"? Substantiate your claim with data.
3. Did you mean to state organic? Market capacity is a critical business parameter. A business is either expanding, stable, or downsizing - all based on market forces. Organic farming expanded based upon faulty logic and junk science. There is no demonstrable difference between the end products. Organic is nothing more than marketing woo playing on fears of the science illiterate.
I look at the organic industry in the same light as the diet industry - much emotion, no data, little logic, but outstanding marketing preying on the ignorance of the masses through a massive disinformation campaign.
Are you attempting to get closer to the truth or trying to be right?
1. Ok agree to disagree. Calling it a straw man repeatedly doesn't make you more credible. It just means you don't have a leg to stand on, so you cry "strawman!" so you don't have to actually discuss the issue of bias.
2. How about you provide some data to back up your assertion? I've provided plenty of data to back up mine in the form of farmers reports. So far all you've done is a "no you're wrong" statement without any data to back it up. While you're at it, explain to me why farmers are switching from GMO to nonGMO or organic since you refuse to accept the message from the farmers mouths that the GMO crops are not delivering the higher yields and pest protection as advertised.
3. Now your bias against organic farming reveals itself, and this from someone who has declared that bias doesn't exist! And that my contention that bias exists is just a strawman. Lol. I am almost peeing my pants with laughter here. You expect me to take you seriously when you write stuff like "Organic farming expanded based on faulty logic and junk science"..."organic marketing is nothing more than marketing woo playing on fears of the science illiterate" I haven't spoken out for or against organic on this thread. I have merely stated that more farmers are switching from GMO to nonGMO and organic for purely economic reasons and I backed it up with data. I'm not interested in debating the pros and cons of farming methods with a fanatic...fanatics tend to be overly biased.
Continue to use the strategy of constructing strawmen I will happily call you out. You could of course choose to stick to the points of the debate.
It is difficult to understand where you stand at this point - you continually deflect, spin, and shift position to appear to be right, despite leaving evidence in print of previous stances.
You are free to label me as you wish. I am fanatic when it comes to proof and repeatable data - it comes with the profession. You are free to provide reproduceable data supporting your claims...I'll wait patiently.
0 -
kaylajane11 wrote: »In the wise words of James Fell:
Pretty much sums up my feelings on GMOs.
The two issues of GMOs and world starvation are not related. People aren't starving to death because someone chooses to eat or not eat GMOs. There is no correlation.
The point of the Fell quote is that GMOs are being used to more affordably and quickly feed starving or malnourished people. It's easy to be anti-GMO when you are shopping at WF and farmer's markets. When your kids are starving in a poor village somewhere, your life may very well depend on GMOs. #firstworldproblems
I was curious about this so found a neat history piece on World Hunger and food production. There is this slide show...but it doesn't say anything about GMOs being the reason world hunger is declining...only that better seeds and fertilizer have done it and then it shows charts of lots of countries with their food productivity sky rocketing. Can you explain the gmo link?
https://ourworldindata.org/slides/hunger-and-food-provision/#/title-slide.0 -
ladyannique2017 wrote: »kaylajane11 wrote: »In the wise words of James Fell:
Pretty much sums up my feelings on GMOs.
The two issues of GMOs and world starvation are not related. People aren't starving to death because someone chooses to eat or not eat GMOs. There is no correlation.
The point of the Fell quote is that GMOs are being used to more affordably and quickly feed starving or malnourished people. It's easy to be anti-GMO when you are shopping at WF and farmer's markets. When your kids are starving in a poor village somewhere, your life may very well depend on GMOs. #firstworldproblems
I was curious about this so found a neat history piece on World Hunger and food production. There is this slide show...but it doesn't say anything about GMOs being the reason world hunger is declining...only that better seeds and fertilizer have done it and then it shows charts of lots of countries with their food productivity sky rocketing. Can you explain the gmo link?
https://ourworldindata.org/slides/hunger-and-food-provision/#/title-slide.
"Better seeds" didn't just happen. They're the result of research and development, including GMOs.9 -
janejellyroll wrote: »ladyannique2017 wrote: »kaylajane11 wrote: »In the wise words of James Fell:
Pretty much sums up my feelings on GMOs.
The two issues of GMOs and world starvation are not related. People aren't starving to death because someone chooses to eat or not eat GMOs. There is no correlation.
The point of the Fell quote is that GMOs are being used to more affordably and quickly feed starving or malnourished people. It's easy to be anti-GMO when you are shopping at WF and farmer's markets. When your kids are starving in a poor village somewhere, your life may very well depend on GMOs. #firstworldproblems
I was curious about this so found a neat history piece on World Hunger and food production. There is this slide show...but it doesn't say anything about GMOs being the reason world hunger is declining...only that better seeds and fertilizer have done it and then it shows charts of lots of countries with their food productivity sky rocketing. Can you explain the gmo link?
https://ourworldindata.org/slides/hunger-and-food-provision/#/title-slide.
"Better seeds" didn't just happen. They're the result of research and development, including GMOs.
Agree, the better seeds are part of what the slide show said was modernizing of farming. So are all these better seeds GMO seeds? I look at the country productivity charts and they're almost identical...well except for some weirdos like Algeria. But the major countries all look the same. Is the increase due to GMOs? I know we here in the US are at the forefront of GMO technology, but I'm not seeing a difference...I kind of expected to see us way outperforming everyone else. So I'm still scratching my head...how have GMOs made a difference to World Hunger?
I know you're not the person that said this, but they haven't responded so can I ask you the follow up question I had about their comment? Kimny said something about GMOs being more affordable...are they cheaper? And that they are faster? I assume it must mean they grow faster because I don't think it matters whether a ship to Africa has gmo corn on it or not, it's going to sail at the same speed. I have never heard of GMOs growing faster than non GMOs...what's your thoughts on that?1 -
ladyannique2017 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »ladyannique2017 wrote: »kaylajane11 wrote: »In the wise words of James Fell:
Pretty much sums up my feelings on GMOs.
The two issues of GMOs and world starvation are not related. People aren't starving to death because someone chooses to eat or not eat GMOs. There is no correlation.
The point of the Fell quote is that GMOs are being used to more affordably and quickly feed starving or malnourished people. It's easy to be anti-GMO when you are shopping at WF and farmer's markets. When your kids are starving in a poor village somewhere, your life may very well depend on GMOs. #firstworldproblems
I was curious about this so found a neat history piece on World Hunger and food production. There is this slide show...but it doesn't say anything about GMOs being the reason world hunger is declining...only that better seeds and fertilizer have done it and then it shows charts of lots of countries with their food productivity sky rocketing. Can you explain the gmo link?
https://ourworldindata.org/slides/hunger-and-food-provision/#/title-slide.
"Better seeds" didn't just happen. They're the result of research and development, including GMOs.
Agree, the better seeds are part of what the slide show said was modernizing of farming. So are all these better seeds GMO seeds? I look at the country productivity charts and they're almost identical...well except for some weirdos like Algeria. But the major countries all look the same. Is the increase due to GMOs? I know we here in the US are at the forefront of GMO technology, but I'm not seeing a difference...I kind of expected to see us way outperforming everyone else. So I'm still scratching my head...how have GMOs made a difference to World Hunger?
I know you're not the person that said this, but they haven't responded so can I ask you the follow up question I had about their comment? Kimny said something about GMOs being more affordable...are they cheaper? And that they are faster? I assume it must mean they grow faster because I don't think it matters whether a ship to Africa has gmo corn on it or not, it's going to sail at the same speed. I have never heard of GMOs growing faster than non GMOs...what's your thoughts on that?
I am not a GMO expert and I don't feel qualified to answer your questoins, but if you want to investigate what GMO advocates/experts have to say on some of these questions, I suggest this site: https://gmoanswers.com/
The cool thing about that site is that if your question isn't already answered, you can submit it for consideration.1
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