WANTED: Opinions on vegetarian/vegan diet
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@nevadavis1 that's awesome!!! My goal is to be eating healthy Whole Foods as well, I have come a long way from the last time I tried to be vegan0
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Thank you, this is good advice. I never label myself politically, religiously, etc so I shouldn't here either.jhildebrandt73 wrote: »I don't think you should label yourself as one thing or another. Just be aware of what you are putting in your body and the way it affects you. Just care about yourself.
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janejellyroll wrote: »jhildebrandt73 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »jhildebrandt73 wrote: »I don't think you should label yourself as one thing or another. Just be aware of what you are putting in your body and the way it affects you. Just care about yourself.
"Just care about yourself" seems like a potentially empty way to go through life. What if I also want to care about other individuals and the impact I have on them?
You mistook my meaning. By no means only care about yourself. But if you have a child, and you love them, you want the best for them. You care about them. Why would you not do the same for yourself. We all need to love each other more.
Apologies for misunderstanding you.
As someone who claims the label "vegan," I do it because I think it's important to have a word that describes opposition to unnecessary animal exploitation. When it comes to movements for political, ideological, or social change, having terms to describe different positions can be useful.
As a minor point of personal convenience, having a label to describe a lifestyle of avoiding animal products also makes it easier for me to purchase food, clothing, and personal care products. So I like it for that reason also.
Good point. I just don't like labels as they are a way to segregate people. To put them in a box and stereotype the lot. But that is the way we are hardwired. Before you even get to know someone you have already labelled them. For instance I could tell you I'm a white, male, 3x divorcee, veteran, vegan, Jehovah's Witness and immediately you will subconsciously create a profile of me based on your previous experiences with any of those groups.1 -
dancefit2015 wrote: »To everyone who has said they don't like these kinds of documentaries, can you please explain? This one it seemed that every statement made either came out of the mouth of a doctor or another highly qualified individual, or from the context of a scientific journal that was written based off of studies. Please don't just say it's wrong because you eat meat everyday and have perfect health... I would never bet my health on a study that involved one person. So what do you think is true about meat and health? Why? What are your sources? Evidence? Give me something real.
Here is what we know is true from broad population evidence: the "blue zones," where people live longest, include populations that eat meat, dairy, and eggs. This makes it unlikely that these foods -- in and of themselves -- are harmful to people instead of it being some other factor. (There is one "blue zone" in Loma Linda, California that includes many vegetarians and vegans, which means that these foods probably aren't *required* for a long and healthy life either).
These documentaries tend to cherry-pick facts or make extrapolations that aren't supported by the studies they are citing.
They hurt veganism when people dig into the claims and find how shallow most of them are. This plants the impression that vegans are deceptive and it also dilutes the message of veganism, which is is about animal exploitation. Many of these documentaries promote additional restrictions on top of veganism (like no oil, no processed food, no sugar, etc), setting people up for failure or potential health problems from over-restriction.
What is true about meat and health? I don't think we know yet. We know that people (not just one person, but big populations of people) can live long and healthy lives while eating meat. I think it's certainly possible that too much meat could be harmful, but that's very different than what these films claim. From looking at general populations, it seems undeniable that there are healthy diet patterns that can include meat (or, if people prefer, healthy diet patterns that can leave it out -- it works both ways).9 -
dancefit2015 wrote: »@YvetteK2015 awesome advice and I completely agree! I have already decided I will be vegetarian, it's vegan that is hard. Last time I was vegan I was very unhealthy as there are many junk foods that are vegan *ahem* Oreos...
So if anyone has any delicious vegan recipes please share those here as well!
I watched a documentary on veganism before. Someone was just starting out the lifestyle. And this woman who had been a vegan for some time was taking this new girl around the supermarket showing her everything that was "vegan". I remember the first thing she showed her was Oreo cookies. Thinking back on it, she showed her a lot of what would be considered "junk food" when really she should have been showing her things like great sources of protein. However, I do remember her showing the girl soy yogurt. But for the most part, she was being shown treats, basically to say, I think, "look at all the yummy things you can have as a vegan".
I guess that's not completely bad, but I do remember thinking that I wish they showed more nutritious food as well.0 -
dancefit2015 wrote: »To everyone who has said they don't like these kinds of documentaries, can you please explain? This one it seemed that every statement made either came out of the mouth of a doctor or another highly qualified individual, or from the context of a scientific journal that was written based off of studies. Please don't just say it's wrong because you eat meat everyday and have perfect health... I would never bet my health on a study that involved one person. So what do you think is true about meat and health? Why? What are your sources? Evidence? Give me something real.
Most of these kind of documentaries cherry pick information that lines up with the agenda. Many, if not most studies out there are correlation studies and are a pretty mixed bag and generally fail to address other diet and lifestyle issues or variables...i.e someone who eats a lot of red meat and processed meat is more likely to not particularly care about their diet in general and is more likely to have a crappier overall diet than someone who is plant based...so a summary would suggest it's the meat rather than the actual overall diet and/or lack of exercise, etc.
Also, a lot of Dr.s and whatnot cherry pick...Dr. Campbell for example (China Study) cherry picked the results of his own study to sell a book that was in line with his agenda rather than accurately publishing the results of the actual study and he has been blasted by others within the scientific community, etc.
In general (not just this documentary) you have to be careful with documentaries...they usually have a huge agenda bias in regards to the subject matter.
There's nothing at all wrong with being vegan...but the fear mongering with these kinds of things is quite annoying. When can have a very healthy diet and lifestyle all the while eating fish, poultry, meat, etc.
@janejellyroll is one of the people who mentioned not liking these kind of documentaries, and she's a vegan...so it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with it just being someone who eats meat.5 -
YvetteK2015 wrote: »dancefit2015 wrote: »@YvetteK2015 awesome advice and I completely agree! I have already decided I will be vegetarian, it's vegan that is hard. Last time I was vegan I was very unhealthy as there are many junk foods that are vegan *ahem* Oreos...
So if anyone has any delicious vegan recipes please share those here as well!
I watched a documentary on veganism before. Someone was just starting out the lifestyle. And this woman who had been a vegan for some time was taking this new girl around the supermarket showing her everything that was "vegan". I remember the first thing she showed her was Oreo cookies. Thinking back on it, she showed her a lot of what would be considered "junk food" when really she should have been showing her things like great sources of protein. However, I do remember her showing the girl soy yogurt. But for the most part, she was being shown treats, basically to say, I think, "look at all the yummy things you can have as a vegan".
I guess that's not completely bad, but I do remember thinking that I wish they showed more nutritious food as well.
Many people are under the impression that being vegan means giving up tasty foods, which is why you'll see this focus in some outreach materials. Not that meeting your nutritional needs isn't important (it is), but if I was eating cookies or chips as a non-vegan, showing me which cookies and chips I can eat as a vegan will be an important part of a successful transition.0 -
I think regardless of how meat affects our bodies, we have to look at how unsustainable the meat industry is becoming. Agriculture isn't doing much better with it's dependence on Corn and Soy. Something has to change.1
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janejellyroll wrote: »YvetteK2015 wrote: »dancefit2015 wrote: »@YvetteK2015 awesome advice and I completely agree! I have already decided I will be vegetarian, it's vegan that is hard. Last time I was vegan I was very unhealthy as there are many junk foods that are vegan *ahem* Oreos...
So if anyone has any delicious vegan recipes please share those here as well!
I watched a documentary on veganism before. Someone was just starting out the lifestyle. And this woman who had been a vegan for some time was taking this new girl around the supermarket showing her everything that was "vegan". I remember the first thing she showed her was Oreo cookies. Thinking back on it, she showed her a lot of what would be considered "junk food" when really she should have been showing her things like great sources of protein. However, I do remember her showing the girl soy yogurt. But for the most part, she was being shown treats, basically to say, I think, "look at all the yummy things you can have as a vegan".
I guess that's not completely bad, but I do remember thinking that I wish they showed more nutritious food as well.
Many people are under the impression that being vegan means giving up tasty foods, which is why you'll see this focus in some outreach materials. Not that meeting your nutritional needs isn't important (it is), but if I was eating cookies or chips as a non-vegan, showing me which cookies and chips I can eat as a vegan will be an important part of a successful transition.
I do agree with you 100% in what you just said. But being that this was a "documentary" showing a new person how to pick food for someone who is new to the lifestyle (I'm sure hoping people would watch this and also consider making the switch) it just occurred to me that focus was more on the treats, but where was the rest of the diet? lol
Like I said, they did show some things, but it definitely wasn't a 50-50 split. More like 80-20. But I guess there are other sources of info out there for just that reason.0 -
Thank you everyone for your responses, very insightful0
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My ex is vegan for animal rights reasons. I respect that but I can see that you can eat vegan and still not eat in a healthy way. Her hair is falling out.0
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orangegato wrote: »My ex is vegan for animal rights reasons. I respect that but I can see that you can eat vegan and still not eat in a healthy way. Her hair is falling out.
Even being a vegan, you still have to hit a minimum calorie goal (which she might not be doing if her hair is falling out) and hit your macros for good health.0 -
her calories were high. Don't think macros were looked at.....0
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Documentaries are entertainment. They only show you experts that agree with their idea and they show you dramatic stories that play with your emotions while NOT showing you anything that doesn't 100% agree.
I actually make it a point NOT to watch documentaries, because I know my emotions are very easily affected by video media (I will actually sometimes cry at product commercials lol) and I don't want to be manipulated into changing my opinion on something.
I've never seen any unbiased evidence that a vegetarian diet is inherently healthier than an omnivore's, though I do think many people would be healthier if they ate more veggies and fiber and less meat and cheese.4 -
orangegato wrote: »her calories were high. Don't think macros were looked at.....
When I started on MFP (mind you, i'm not a vegan) I was only concerned about hitting my calorie goal. I never, ever looked at my macros. Now, almost a year later, I realize how important they are. I think I probably never hit my protein goal in the beginning, because I know I have to really work to hit it now. I also have to work to hit my fat goal. I could hit my calorie goal, but still be under in my protein, so I have to work to make sure that doesn't happen.
I hope your gf can get this straightened out. I wish her the best of luck. She may want to see a registered dietician.0 -
orangegato wrote: »her calories were high. Don't think macros were looked at.....
It could be not getting enough lysine. It's an essential amino acid, a type of protein. Vegans who don't eat legumes often don't get enough of it. Someone could be getting enough protein on paper, but still be short in a specific amino acid and this could cause issues. For vegans who eat a well-rounded diet including sources of lysine, it's not something to worry about (I track all my amino acids because I'm a nerd and I've never had a day where I haven't met the need). But it's possible for other vegans to fall short in it. Lysine is needed to metabolize iron and zinc, so not getting enough can lead to additional issues.
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Documentaries are entertainment. They only show you experts that agree with their idea and they show you dramatic stories that play with your emotions while NOT showing you anything that doesn't 100% agree.
I actually make it a point NOT to watch documentaries, because I know my emotions are very easily affected by video media (I will actually sometimes cry at product commercials lol) and I don't want to be manipulated into changing my opinion on something.
I've never seen any unbiased evidence that a vegetarian diet is inherently healthier than an omnivore's, though I do think many people would be healthier if they ate more veggies and fiber and less meat and cheese.
The documentaries that I tend to watch the most are on cancer, because I had cancer at one time. I've seen a few where doctors have put patients on specific vegan diets (and I'm not blasting the vegan diet here, I'm blasting the doctors) to "cure" the cancer. I think in at least one of these, the woman didn't want chemo because she was so sure the diet was going to work. The first 2 years she didn't look too bad, but she wasn't getting better. Year 3 she was looking bad, and by year 4 she died. I don't mind doctors recommending an "anti-cancer" diet to help PREVENT certain types of cancers, but once you prescribe one as treatment, it makes me want to scream. There is so much hope in these patients at the beginning, and you just see the hope slowly fade away. It's so sad. I don't know how these doctors get away with it. I don't know how it's not malpractice.2 -
How do you track your amino acids?janejellyroll wrote: »orangegato wrote: »her calories were high. Don't think macros were looked at.....
It could be not getting enough lysine. It's an essential amino acid, a type of protein. Vegans who don't eat legumes often don't get enough of it. Someone could be getting enough protein on paper, but still be short in a specific amino acid and this could cause issues. For vegans who eat a well-rounded diet including sources of lysine, it's not something to worry about (I track all my amino acids because I'm a nerd and I've never had a day where I haven't met the need). But it's possible for other vegans to fall short in it. Lysine is needed to metabolize iron and zinc, so not getting enough can lead to additional issues.
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dancefit2015 wrote: »
How do you track your amino acids?janejellyroll wrote: »orangegato wrote: »her calories were high. Don't think macros were looked at.....
It could be not getting enough lysine. It's an essential amino acid, a type of protein. Vegans who don't eat legumes often don't get enough of it. Someone could be getting enough protein on paper, but still be short in a specific amino acid and this could cause issues. For vegans who eat a well-rounded diet including sources of lysine, it's not something to worry about (I track all my amino acids because I'm a nerd and I've never had a day where I haven't met the need). But it's possible for other vegans to fall short in it. Lysine is needed to metabolize iron and zinc, so not getting enough can lead to additional issues.
You can check it on some websites like nutritiondata.self.com for the things you eat. While most meat is complete protein (i.e. has all the essential amino acids), many vegetables are not, making variety important.0 -
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