Yet another rant about physicians!
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I'm amazed the doctor would disregard the weight loss. o.o In any case, he sounds like he is allowing personal bias to affect his role as a doctor. As long as your nutritional needs are being met, calorie counting is definitely the way to go. Exercise *is* important for overall health, but if your weight is currently interfering with your ability to exercise than simply counting calories will suffice until you're able to do more.
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Because processed food IS processed this means you're removing parts of the original food and by processing you're also destroying the nutritional value, this means that you're eating the same amount of calories for fewer nutrients, it's just plain wrong.
No, processing does not mean you are "destroying the nutritional value," you just made that up.
Here is a good definition (from wiki):Food processing is the transformation of raw ingredients, by physical or chemical means into food, or of food into other forms. Food processing combines raw food ingredients to produce marketable food products that can be easily prepared and served by the consumer. Food processing typically involves activities such as mincing and macerating, liquefaction, emulsification, and cooking (such as boiling, broiling, frying, or grilling); pickling, pasteurization, and many other kinds of preservation; and canning or other packaging. (Primary-processing such as dicing or slicing, freezing or drying when leading to secondary products are also included.
It has it's roots in: (1) cooking food so it tastes better and nutrients are (in many cases) more easily accessible; and (2) preserving food, so those of us in northern climate or who otherwise have had less consistent access to food will have it on hand.
If not for food processing (and other much more recent innovations, like carting food in from far away), I would not be able to have produce in many months, so the idea that it makes the diet less healthy is bizarre.Eating a whole foods diet it's so easy that you can't go wrong if you don't buy any refined food.
I don't even get what this has to do with OP, who eats a mostly whole foods diet. Your thing is that you are saying she should never, ever eat anything that isn't 100% whole foods (although you are still making weird exceptions with a definition of processed that improperly excludes whatever you think is worth eating). I don't know why people are so committed to misusing the word "processed."Also, I say it again, if you're trying to lose weight you shouldn't, but I do have a cheat meal just because building up stress it's counterproductive in the weight loss process, otherwise I wouldn't.
So you ALSO don't eat 100% unprocessed, even by your definition? So how is this different than OP (or what I was talking about), except personally I think it's healthier not to demonize perfectly good foods and then eat them in a cheat meal.
(I'm not trying to lose weight, but I think it was sensible when doing so to eat basically like I would when at maintenance, but of course lower calories.)I don't know what kinds of problem you had but I do have successfully been eating this way for over a 1.5 years with no relapses.
Apparently because you have "cheat meals" and exclude some processed foods from the definition of "processed."
But in any case, NO ONE is saying it can't work for you. I'm saying your effort to tell the OP what she should do is not supported by any good reason.
[continued in the next thread so it's not so long]15 -
The theme of this is apparently why all processed foods (except the ones the poster happens to like) are bad.Eating oil, in general, it's bad and that's because it's a refined fat, it has no nutritional value more than the omega-6 that it holds (which is laughably low, grapeseed oil and flaxseed oil are way better). If you want the same amount of omega-6 why not eating nuts or seeds that have proteins, fibers, minerals, vitamins and antioxidant?
I don't "eat oil," that's a bizarre way to think about it. I use it in cooking, in salad dressings, etc. Why? Because it tastes good. Many cultures which consume lots of olive oil (no doubt more than I do) are extremely healthy traditionally. (You say you are in Italy, so presumably know that in much of the Mediterranean traditionally a significant part of calories are from olive oil. I don't consume that much since using less is an easy way to cut calories, but the idea that it must be none is bizarre and not based on any traditional pattern of eating. That's why I suspect you are following certain kinds of anti fat gurus like Fuhrman and that ilk. The funny thing is that that's really a contemporary US thing, what Michael Pollan might call nutritionism. That's not a compliment.)Canned beans are considered to be "minimally processed foods", this means it usually salted in boiled water, nothing else, could you compare it to cheese or oil?
Sure, traditionally made cheese and olive oil are ALSO considered minimally processed foods if that is now an exception. Are you unaware of that?I'm not going to say anything on meat in general other than just "It's not a way I would eat or live my life", I'm vegan and I'm not here to trying to change someone opinion on that (people already think it's cult when it's not)
I get ethical reasons for not eating meat, I'm asking about HEALTH and nutrition reasons for avoiding smoked salmon entirely (or let's expand it to any wild caught salmon -- for the record a lot of the smoked salmon I eat my dad smoked himself, it's a hobby, he lived in AK for years and is now in WA). I also eat lots of cooked fish (I cook it, that's also processing). And I sometimes eat sushi, yum! (Not prepared by me, so processed.)See what I'm saying? Also, it seems to be you're following the keto(meme) diet, which is greatly known for causing kidney and liver diseases.
I'm not, actually -- I did it for a while, but not when losing weight and not now. But that's neither here nor there, as we are talking about why ALL processed foods must be avoided for health and your advice to OP. We can talk about the (lack of) evidence that my own personal way of eating is bad for me later!Simply put, the more volume you eat, the more full you feel, it's easier to sustain.
I know this is a Fuhrman claim and probably some other WFPB gurus, but it's simply not true for everyone (and even in the volume eaters thread they don't avoid all processed foods). It's funny because this thread started about OP's doctor giving her one-size-fits-all advice and ignoring her actual diet choices, what she has found helpful, etc. And then you jump in and do the same thing.
This is the really important point I want to make here. Different things work for different people.I don't know why you should be, but it's refined fat, look up again.
Dairy is NOT refined fat. How is the fat refined, that's weird. (And a lot of the greek yogurt I consume is skim, which means the fat is skimmed off of the milk used to make it so it has no fat -- which makes it MORE processed, of course, although unimportantly so.)The point here is: if you do things yourself a.k.a buying the nuts and prepare the walnut butter, it's way healthier than buying the processed product w a ton of stuff added (like sugar or whatever they add, to be clear, I'm referring to the label behind a food item).
I know how to read labels. It's easy to find nut butters without any ingredients but nuts. It's weird you don't know this and assume lots of stuff was added. Especially weird since you make judgments without asking -- precisely the issue this thread was originally complaining about!
Walnut butter IS high cal, because walnuts are high cal. (I often to make nut butters and nut milks myself -- for the record, storebought nutmilk (which I don't purchase) is LOW cal, because it's basically processed nut flavored water with some vitamins added, sometimes protein too. And that's fine. I make it myself because I like the taste better and like the fat as I eat higher fat right now (not keto, but lower carb), and so all the processing I do myself, which is why all the fat you hate so much, LOL.Spices have pretty much 0 calories and they add way more flavor than any other condiment, you should try, they also have fibers and antioxidants.
Why would you assume I don't know about or use spices (or that OP does not)? Again, that's really weird and presumptuous.I didn't say that Balsamic vinegar is high in calories, but condiments like oils are, but anyway, 94% of vinegar is sugar, so it is, processed sugar.
Um, yes you did, you said my list of condiments is high sugar. This is really an absurd reason to be anti vinegar. Look at how much sugar is in a serving of vinegar some time. (There are also positives to pickled and fermented foods, of course.)
Finally, it's cute that you think you have it all figured out because you've done something for 1.5 years, but that's really not a very long time.21 -
You are completely derailing the OP's thread in order to lecture us. OP says they have lost 13.5 lbs in 40 days and wanted to complain about their doctor's lack of knowledge. They didn't ask for advice and they are already eating a mostly whole foods diet based on what they posted.
If you'd like to tell us all we lost weight and improved our health the wrong way, perhaps you should start your own debate thread?23 -
OP seems to have a pretty good handle of what she is doing, and I applaud her for being confident enough in her own weight loss approach to defend it. As far as the whole processed/unprocessed thing, people can argue all day long but weight loss still comes down to a very simple formula:CICO.
Personally, I find it annoying when people preach in these forums about how unprocessed is better, or carbs and sugar are evil, or how fat should be avoided at all costs. There are so many different views on what the best recipe for losing weight is, and the truth is there is no one perfect way. Each person is different, and each person has different likes and needs, so anyone who says their way is best is just arrogant and wrong.
The sad thing is, people come to these forums looking for advice, or for the magic formula, and it just seems like everyone ends up arguing about who's way is best instead of providing actual support. Don't get me wrong, I find it entertaining, but I am also not overweight and looking for help. I do appreciate the people who have taken the time to research and post relevant links instead of just "assuming it was common knowledge."9 -
I'm a volume eater, but I tend to strike a balance between volume and foods that sate me and yes, I eat processed foods like cottage cheese and yogurt, and I consider these minimally processed. I could make them myself I suppose, but I already spend plenty of time in the kitchen and prefer not to.
As to the claim that processing removes nutrients, I admit that's a head scratcher. Okay, I'll give you that on the yogurt I eat since it's 2% yogurt, some fat is skimmed off, but it's just 2% milk and yogurt culture. They are the only ingredients. (I eat Fage 2%). I eat full fat cottage cheese. There's skim milk, whole milk, cream, and a few vegetable gums which don't really bother me added in there. I suppose that if I were willing to pay more money I could find a product without the gums, but we're on a budget. The point is that there's no nutrition removed from the milk to make the cottage cheese.
I eat brown rice. I eat rolled oats. They are processed. There is nothing removed from them. I eat bean pasta. It is processed. No nutrition is removed from the beans to make the pasta.
I eat frozen vegetables. They are processed. They are picked and frozen, and they are often more nutritious than fresh. The only ingredient on the bag is the vegetables. There is nothing removed from them.
I eat flax meal. It's processed. It's also easier to digest the nutrients and essential oils in the seed in ground form than eating it whole. I suppose I could grind it myself, but I can't be bothered since Bob's Red Mill already does it for me. Nothing is removed there.
I agree with the pp. It's cute that you've been doing something for 1 1/2 years and think you've got everything all sussed. I felt the same way when I low carbed. I did that for 10 years.
Hint: I'm not a low-carber any more.10 -
stanmann571 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Why is eating nuts and seeds only and NO olive oil, no walnut (or almond or pistachio) butter, no dairy, no smoked salmon, so on "healthier" than a good, balanced, nutrient dense diet that includes those things?
Because the negatives of eating processed food it's greater than its benefits, if you're still not sure about this, google yourself some research like I did for the past few years instead of listening to some said "guru".
How about this. You produce your sources and we'll eat them for lunch instead of the smoked salmon.
Right now, you're presenting yourself as the guru we should listen to and providing no evidence to support your ultimately absurd assertions.
It is known Khaleesi.8 -
poweredbychai wrote: »Open up your app and show your physician your diary. Show him you are putting in the effort and logging your food - that might give him pause to criticize your eating habits (or he'll find something to harp on like your sodium intake).
Also, keep in mind that exercise has other health/wellness benefits besides contributing to weight loss, so he'll probably keep bringing it up for those reasons.
I recommend this to many people, especially in the hypothyroid forums. Doctors (and all professionals) do well with data and have difficulty making proper diagnosis on subjective feelings. Bringing data at least brings a foundation to debate on.1 -
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clicketykeys wrote: »
LOL... I had to read that comment 3 times when sand55mfp made it to realize he wasn't shilling an actual book.
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Off-topic but temporarily relevant: isn't "shilling" a delightful verb??11
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poweredbychai wrote: »Open up your app and show your physician your diary. Show him you are putting in the effort and logging your food - that might give him pause to criticize your eating habits (or he'll find something to harp on like your sodium intake).
Also, keep in mind that exercise has other health/wellness benefits besides contributing to weight loss, so he'll probably keep bringing it up for those reasons.
I recommend this to many people, especially in the hypothyroid forums. Doctors (and all professionals) do well with data and have difficulty making proper diagnosis on subjective feelings. Bringing data at least brings a foundation to debate on.
My primary care (a nurse practitioner aka APNP) loves me. When I come in for a regular visit, I show up with my spreadsheets where I record my daily blood glucose readings and weigh-ins, along with notes like the days I was on vacation or had an especially long hike, etc. I also print out the 90 day reports from MFP showing my daily carbs, iron, protein, and total and net calories (all of which are pertinent to my specific ongoing health needs)
She has (with my permission) shown them to other patients as examples 1) Yes, losing weight and lowering A1C can be done and 2) There is so much information available to really get a feel for what is working and what isn't.6 -
Several people have mentioned correctly that the average doctor only gets around 20 contact hours of instruction on nutrition in med school. I would agree there should be more emphasis placed on it. The number may be somewhat misleading though due to the number of chemistry, biology, anatomy, etc classes they take and that some overlap with nutrition studies. Plus it would not include anything they took in undergrad.
However, not disrespecting anyone but I bet I would be safe to assume the average internet forum poster that posts on nutrition has 0 contact hours of nutrition instruction.
BTW, I haven't started reading it yet, but I picked up a used college nutrition textbook. They play the game of new editions with little change in content to force the kids to buy new books.
Here's the link to the 14th (current) edition, at $236 new, there is a link in the page to buy the 13th edition for $16 (copyright 2012 so pretty current). IMO a good way to get some reading.
https://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Nutrition-Eleanor-Noss-Whitney/dp/128587434X3 -
Nutrition classes should be mandatory for anyone claiming to be an internet expert. I DONT claim to be an expert, but I did have a minor in nutrition in University. There's so much to learn and even more false information out there.3
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poweredbychai wrote: »Open up your app and show your physician your diary. Show him you are putting in the effort and logging your food - that might give him pause to criticize your eating habits (or he'll find something to harp on like your sodium intake).
Also, keep in mind that exercise has other health/wellness benefits besides contributing to weight loss, so he'll probably keep bringing it up for those reasons.
I recommend this to many people, especially in the hypothyroid forums. Doctors (and all professionals) do well with data and have difficulty making proper diagnosis on subjective feelings. Bringing data at least brings a foundation to debate on.
My primary care (a nurse practitioner aka APNP) loves me. When I come in for a regular visit, I show up with my spreadsheets where I record my daily blood glucose readings and weigh-ins, along with notes like the days I was on vacation or had an especially long hike, etc. I also print out the 90 day reports from MFP showing my daily carbs, iron, protein, and total and net calories (all of which are pertinent to my specific ongoing health needs)
She has (with my permission) shown them to other patients as examples 1) Yes, losing weight and lowering A1C can be done and 2) There is so much information available to really get a feel for what is working and what isn't.
Isn't it amazing? I'm on a high dose of Synthroid which holds a higher risk for heart palpitations, so I allay my treating endocrinologist's fears by providing EKG and stress test data...otherwise if I was the litigious sort I could file suit. I've produced my MFP data along with other supporting data so that we both are making sound decisions.
I wonder this every time I hear complaints about medical professionals. Are you descriptive and specific with your symptoms? Are you allowing a foundation to be built or are you leading questions/answers based on confirmation bias?0 -
Nutrition classes should be mandatory for anyone claiming to be an internet expert. I DONT claim to be an expert, but I did have a minor in nutrition in University. There's so much to learn and even more false information out there.
Never claimed to be one, I just said how things are for me and how what I read and tried worked, we might have different views of life but under the skin we're all the same, if you don't try you'll never knowlemurcat12 wrote: »I don't "eat oil," that's a bizarre way to think about it. I use it in cooking, in salad dressings, etc. Why? Because it tastes good. Many cultures which consume lots of olive oil (no doubt more than I do) are extremely healthy traditionally. (You say you are in Italy, so presumably know that in much of the Mediterranean traditionally a significant part of calories are from olive oil. I don't consume that much since using less is an easy way to cut calories, but the idea that it must be none is bizarre and not based on any traditional pattern of eating. That's why I suspect you are following certain kinds of anti fat gurus like Fuhrman and that ilk. The funny thing is that that's really a contemporary US thing, what Michael Pollan might call nutritionism. That's not a compliment.)
I'm not going to reply again to that wall of text. Only this one and I will un-bookmark this post from my bar, we're way off topic here.
I live in Italy, and if you ever been here (especially in the southern part), obesity is striving like in America, it's an epidemic that is going worst and worst every year, most of them follow a "healthy" Mediterranean diet and some don't, but the only point I was making about oils and refined fat, in general, they're unhealthy because of the nutritional value and because it's literally a waste of calories, you can say that they're good but this doesn't change anything.
Btw, no, the bulk of the calories in the Mediterranean diet is usually all through the meal, some get starters like olives followed from a 1st of pasta and a 2nd of fish (which nobody ever wants, trust me on that) and maybe, i say, a salad w tomatoes and evoo (which also you'll never see someone eating) maybe 50 years ago was different, but not today.
I do not follow any of those crazy gurus and until now I didn't even know who "Fuhrman" is, but I do follow someone w a medical background, and I do eat fats in my diet, I love too much my hair to actually seeing them falling, and I also care about having a healthy heart, I eat both (omega-3 and omega-6), that's why I mentioned flaxseed oil and grapeseed (I only consume grapeseed because it's super convenient for omega-6 while cutting), the only way to know how much you're eating each is to use cronometer which is way more complete than mfp in this regards.
Now going back from what I said before -- " health and weight loss for some seem to be two different things."
When you're trying to lose weight you have to eat less food in general and move more, this is the general rule, right?
The real problem w calories restricting for a really long term (+8 weeks) is that you're going to be deficient in some nutrients. You can supplement but, studies have shown that supplementing most of the time it's not effective or even worst.
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/some-dietary-supplements-may-be-more-than-a-waste-of-money/
That's why eating at BMR should be the norm and never less if you're not under the supervision of a nutritionist.
Good luck.
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Nutrition classes should be mandatory for anyone claiming to be an internet expert. I DONT claim to be an expert, but I did have a minor in nutrition in University. There's so much to learn and even more false information out there.
Never claimed to be one, I just said how things are for me and how what I read and tried worked, we might have different views of life but under the skin we're all the same, if you don't try you'll never know
I wasn't commenting on you, just a general comment. No need to take it personally
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I am a nurse practitioner. Some of the comments on this thread made me smile. I can honestly say I DO listen to my patients and not only do I recommend tools such as myfitnesspal, I refer my patients to a dietician if, at any point, I feel unable to provide sound advice. Health should be a team approach and I am not afraid to reach out at any time.
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Ah. Nutritionfacts. It makes sense now. You realize that's all vegan propaganda, right?10
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