August 2017 Running Challenge

@MobyCarp I pray your ankle and Achilles are healed quickly and completely!

wishiwasarunner wrote: »

PastorVincent wrote: »

Basically, I told the trainer that if I was out running and fell in a hole I was not sure I could pull myself back out! So we will see how this goes. I really need to make myself stick with it.

The trainer did say the lower back and core parts of it will help with the running too, so there is that.

I could feel a real difference in my form and fatigue level from strengthening my core with weight training. I knew it would help but was quite surprised at how big of a difference it made. Good luck with your new plan!

Cool. Hope something like that happens for me. It is always a little easier to stick with something when I get some tangible benefit from it. Just really not a fan of picking up heavy things and putting them back down.

@_nikkiwolf_ my solution was to only do longer cruise intervals. Those are supposed to be stamina runs, it necessarily for speed, they are supposed to help with LT pace. The speed ones are supposed to be for VO2 max. You're supposed to struggle with the last two on the speed intervals, if that helps. The reason there is overlap is because some days are good days and some are bad, so aim for the fast end but know you might hit the slow end.

@MobyCarp Hope you are feeling better soon

KatieJane83 wrote: »

MNLittleFinn wrote: »

Pace for me was roughly 5k pace, for perspective.


Have a Runderful day everyone!

Ok, Disclaimer: I am NOT an expert and I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will chime in. But, I think short intervals are supposed to be run at a faster pace. My last summer track workout was 2x 2400m long intervals and the coach told us we should be pushing slightly faster than our 5k pace for those. When we've done shorter interval workouts he's told us to push pretty hard. I know, vague and non-specific, lol.

Again, I could be totally wrong. Some of our awesomely experienced brethren will, I'm sure, chime in with better info than I have, lol.

I missed the original post, so I don't know how long the intervals @MNLittleFinn refers to were. However, there are different paces used for different purposes in training, and you don't necessarily run all the shorter intervals hard.

For reference, Coach has us train to the Jack Daniels system of R (rep) pace, approximately your one mile race pace; I (interval) pace, approximately your 5K race pace; T (threshold) pace, approximately lactic threshold; MP (marathon pace), pace to achieve goal marathon finish time. Sometimes he throws in non-standard paces, like Goal Race Pace (which will vary based on the length of the target race) or, in training for a short race, something even faster than R.

Example: Tuesday's workout for people training for a mile race was 3-4 x 800 at R with 400 recovery, then 4 x 200 at "R-2 seconds" with 200 recovery. In other words, whatever your R goal is for 200 meters, he wanted you to run those 4 200's 2 seconds faster.

In various workouts for various goals, I've seen R pace ranging from 200m to 800m, with 200 or 400 most common; I pace ranging from 200 to 2000m, with 800, 1000, and 1200m being common; T pace ranging from 800m to 4 miles; and MP ranging from one mile to 13 miles.

Oh, yeah. E (easy) pace is also in the system. I've seen that assigned from 200m (recovery intervals) all the way up to 22 miles.

So, while in general shorter intervals tend to be run faster than longer intervals, it's not a simple formula of X length implies Y pace. There is considerable overlap. My standard joke that I tell to 5K runners is that from a marathon runner's perspective, a 5K is just an interval workout: 4800m at I, plus 200m at R.

@MobyCarp I ran 12x400 with 200m recovery at ~1:51(7:27 pace) per interval, with a hammer drop to 1:38 for the last interval. It actually felt pretty easy Slowest interval was the first at 1:55. Had a 1 mile warm up in z1 and a 1 mile cool down in z1. My 5k PR last november was a 7:31 pace, for reference.

I'm going with Ian Torrence's notion that doing speedwork, while good for all around fitness also pays dividends for Long distance in increast VO2 max and such.... I kind of felt like today's workout was too easy, I felt GREAT after I was done.

kristinegift wrote: »

MNLittleFinn wrote: »

@MobyCarp I ran 12x400 with 200m recovery at ~1:51(7:27 pace) per interval, with a hammer drop to 1:38 for the last interval. It actually felt pretty easy Slowest interval was the first at 1:55. Had a 1 mile warm up in z1 and a 1 mile cool down in z1. My 5k PR last november was a 7:31 pace, for reference.

I'm going with Ian Torrence's notion that doing speedwork, while good for all around fitness also pays dividends for Long distance in increast VO2 max and such.... I kind of felt like today's workout was too easy, I felt GREAT after I was done.

@MNLittleFinn That is why 12x400 is one of my favorite workouts. It's fun to go fast and not feel totally wiped out afterward!! I'm hoping my friend's Hanson plan has another one on the agenda before our race in October (I'm not DOING Hanson's... just doing all her Hanson's workouts with her).

I'll admit, I really thought that 12x400 was going to wipe me out. Very pleasantly surprised at how good it felt. The last rep at 1:38 made me wonder if I could have gone faster, since even on thr last one, dropping 12 seconds from my my rep time didn't feel like anything.

Crazy week going on... I will be back later to read all the activity and post some comments!
Date........Miles.......Total
08/01......5.49........5.49 - + Strength Training
08/02......0.00........5.49
08/03......5.13......10.62 - Treadmill
08/04......0.00......10.62 - + kr30dc day 1, Strength Training
08/05......9.69......20.31 - + kr30dc day 2
08/06......0.00......20.31 - + kr30dc day 3
08/07......4.47......24.78 - + kr30dc day 4, Agility
08/08......0.00......24.78 - + kr30dc day 5, Strength Training
08/09......5.09......29.87 - + kr30dc day 6
08/10......0.00......29.87 - + kr30dc day 7, Strength Training
08/11......4.44......34.31
08/12......4.91......39.22
08/13......0.00......39.22
08/14......3.52......42.74 - + kr30dc day 8, Agility
08/15......0.00......42.74 - + kr30dc day 9, Strength Training
08/16......0.00......42.74 - + kr30dc day 10
08/17......5.50......48.24 - + kr30dc day 11, Strength Training



My completed and upcoming Races - Let me know if you will be running too!
02/05/17 - Surf City Half Marathon
07/23/17 - San Francisco 1st Half Marathon
10/14/17 - AIM for the Cure Melanoma 5K Walk/Run
12/16/17 - San Diego Holiday Half Marathon
07/22/18 - San Francisco 2nd Half Marathon

MobyCarp wrote: »

_nikkiwolf_ wrote: »

Regarding intervals, one question to everyone: If I look at the McMillan calculator, what time should I use for intervals? He has different ones for "speed" and "cruise" intervals, and despite watching the explanation videos, I couldn't figure out which one I should use.

For example when I entered a 5k time of 26:54 which I ran in April, under speed paces it gave me "1:53-2:00 min for 400m" , while the cruise intervals listed above that are "2:08 to 2:13" for 400m.
Or for 800m, it would be either "3:55-4:05 min for 800m" or "4:16-4:26 min".

Last week I did 12x400m, and my times were between 2:05 and 2:14 minutes (and one in 2:24, but that was in a section of a park at night with no streetlights and some obstacles on the ground, so I'm not worried about that one). I know you should aim for even paces over all repetitions, but some of those 400m intervals had up to ~10m elevation gain, some up to 15m elevation loss, and some were mixed (like +9/-4 or +3/-4), which I use as a handy excuse for why I don't manage to hit the same pace for all of them...
The week before that I did 6x800m, and I ended up between 4:14 - 4:32min, again depending on surface and slope.
Naively, I would guess I should use the "speed paces" for speedwork. But while I hope on a flat, smooth track I would manage more even splits, even then I don't think I could hit the pace listed in the speed pace category of the calculator, for sure not for a number of intervals in a row!
On the other hand, I ran a 5km parkrun last Saturday in 26:26, 28s faster than the old PR which I used to calculate my interval paces, so I don't think my failure to hit the speed paces is due to decreased fitness...?

@_nikkiwolf_

In the context of the Jack Daniels system I'm more familiar with, it looks like the McMilan "cruise intervals" are the equivalent of the Jack Daniels I pace, roughly equivalent to your 5K race pace. It looks like the "speed paces" are the equivalent of the Jack Daniels R pace, roughly your one mile race pace. So you're a European; based off your 26:54 5K time, that would predict you could run a 1600m race in about 8 minutes flat, perhaps a few seconds faster. And that's the pace the system is asking you to use to run speed intervals. I would not expect those speed intervals to be longer than 800m, and probably most of them are 400 or 200.

I would expect the cruise intervals to be longer, usually no shorter than 800m but 1000, 1200, or 1600 could be used as you get into more intense training. You wouldn't want to do 1600m intervals at the speed interval pace, because that would be just like running a race of the same distance. For 6x800m, the speed interval pace would be brutally hard. I'd expect that workout to be designed for the cruise interval pace, unless you're in very heavy training for a competitive 1500m or 1600m race.

@MobyCarp Thanks a lot for these explanations! The comparison to 1600m race pace is really helpful, I didn't think of it like that.
My best estimated time according to Strava for a mile is indeed close to 8 minutes, a bit faster (7:36) - but that was during a completely misguided race warmup where they were looking for adult volunteers to run with the 1mi race kids (the organisers didn't want the kids on the road alone, not all parents were runners, and one of them told me it would be a great warm-up - yeah, right, I won't fall for that one again this year!). The ~12 year old boy whom I was supposed to follow was insanely fast, and it all but killed me to try and keep up with him. You don't want to see my splits in the second half of the "real" race that I ran after that...
The pace for that mile was 4:44min/km; the "speed paces" at the Mcmillan calculator start at 4:42-5:00 for 400. "Brutally hard" is a very accurate description. There's no way I would ever be able to run a 12x400m training workout at that pace. I think during that kids race I just managed it out of pure desparation because I knew I was not supposed to lose that kid

So I guess I'll aim for the cruise interval paces for now. My next race will be a half marathon end of September, and with the one exception two weeks ago, all intervals on the training plan are between 800m to 1600m, so nothing too short.