The Onion is really going in after this Vegas thing..
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SomebodyWakeUpHIcks wrote: »@browneyedgirl749 wrote: »To a certain extent, I do believe there should be stricter gun laws. In VA, it is not required you register a fire arm. I did, however, when I got mine, because I will be taking the class to get my conceal carry permit. The law can be stricter by making all gun owners register their guns.
Law makers can pass as many laws as they want about getting stricter gun laws, but as I said, and many others said, if people want a gun, they'll get it, legally or illegally. And people are smart. They can ban automatic weapons, but people will figure out how to turn a semi automatic into an automatic. It's the same way as people making home made bombs with simple cleaning supplies. Evil people will go to extra lengths to pull off events like this.
Here is the argument against that (not saying its right or wrong): Why would the gov't want a list of all gun owners? What purpose would that serve? It is so they track who they consider a threat? Who might resist a change in gov't?
Like I said before, I'm a gun owner...so I'm definitely not in the ban guns camp...but I think licensing and registration makes sense. Will it prevent anything from happening ever again? Of course not...no law or regulation can do that...but we still have laws and regulations.
I think registration could have advantages...like someone getting stopped or otherwise somehow involved with the police and has a gun and the police finds that individual in violation of the law because it's not registered...he might be just some guy that didn't register is gun...or he could be some evil POS who had bigger plans that were thwarted because he was caught with an unregistered gun.
I think it would be beneficial in tracking firearms...where did it come from and who was the last registered owner...this would also dissuade people from illegal gun sales and/or make them more responsible in making sure they report lost or stolen guns to the proper authorities. Any transfer would require a re-registration by the new owner...and a transfer of title or something from the seller to CYA incase the new owner isn't so responsible.
I would think a renewal process would need to be in place with another round of background checks, etc...it would be nice if they could include mental health background check, but that would likely be a HIPAA.
I would think registration would also deter "straw purchases"
IDK...these seem like common sense things to me. Not going to solve all of the problems of course, but there's more of a deterrence...it's way easier to go buy a gun than it is to buy and operate a motor vehicle...which seems weird to me.2 -
Licensing and registration would go a long way to focusing law enforcement on recovering illegal weapons.
Every "illegal" gun in the US started life as a legal purchase. At some point in its life it was stolen, lost, or sold illegally.
Making people register firearms, and holding them accountable for being lost, stolen, or sold, would reduce all of these.
People love to say "criminals will get guns" but are much more stubborn at actually looking at when and how the legal/illegal boundary is crossed.4 -
zachbonner_ wrote: »Licensing and registration would go a long way to focusing law enforcement on recovering illegal weapons.
Every "illegal" gun in the US started life as a legal purchase. At some point in its life it was stolen, lost, or sold illegally.
Making people register firearms, and holding them accountable for being lost, stolen, or sold, would reduce all of these.
People love to say "criminals will get guns" but are much more stubborn at actually looking at when and how the legal/illegal boundary is crossed.
Just admit that more stringent gun laws impact those that follow the law more than criminals. You know it's the truth.
see. You wrote this post thinking that I'm opposed to burdening legal gun owners. Hint. I'm not. As a law abiding citizen, and a responsible gun owner, I would happily take on additional burden.
I will fill out whatever form, take whatever class, and wait however long is necessary, if doing so will prevent even 1 gun death.5 -
beingmore1 wrote: »
Yes this is true, I can’t see how it would be hurtful to any lawful abiding gun owners. However. As stated previously it’s gonna do jack squat for the “bad guy” or “crazy guy” who doesn’t follow the law anyways. If this guy wanted to kill a lot of people, like another poster mentioned, he didn’t need to use guns. As we see with the suicide bombers who use buckets and nails to make bombs....they find a way. Should hardware stores be more regulated?cwolfman13 wrote: »SomebodyWakeUpHIcks wrote: »@browneyedgirl749 wrote: »To a certain extent, I do believe there should be stricter gun laws. In VA, it is not required you register a fire arm. I did, however, when I got mine, because I will be taking the class to get my conceal carry permit. The law can be stricter by making all gun owners register their guns.
Law makers can pass as many laws as they want about getting stricter gun laws, but as I said, and many others said, if people want a gun, they'll get it, legally or illegally. And people are smart. They can ban automatic weapons, but people will figure out how to turn a semi automatic into an automatic. It's the same way as people making home made bombs with simple cleaning supplies. Evil people will go to extra lengths to pull off events like this.
Here is the argument against that (not saying its right or wrong): Why would the gov't want a list of all gun owners? What purpose would that serve? It is so they track who they consider a threat? Who might resist a change in gov't?
Like I said before, I'm a gun owner...so I'm definitely not in the ban guns camp...but I think licensing and registration makes sense. Will it prevent anything from happening ever again? Of course not...no law or regulation can do that...but we still have laws and regulations.
I think registration could have advantages...like someone getting stopped or otherwise somehow involved with the police and has a gun and the police finds that individual in violation of the law because it's not registered...he might be just some guy that didn't register is gun...or he could be some evil POS who had bigger plans that were thwarted because he was caught with an unregistered gun.
I think it would be beneficial in tracking firearms...where did it come from and who was the last registered owner...this would also dissuade people from illegal gun sales and/or make them more responsible in making sure they report lost or stolen guns to the proper authorities. Any transfer would require a re-registration by the new owner...and a transfer of title or something from the seller to CYA incase the new owner isn't so responsible.
I would think a renewal process would need to be in place with another round of background checks, etc...it would be nice if they could include mental health background check, but that would likely be a HIPAA.
I would think registration would also deter "straw purchases"
IDK...these seem like common sense things to me. Not going to solve all of the problems of course, but there's more of a deterrence...it's way easier to go buy a gun than it is to buy and operate a motor vehicle...which seems weird to me.
Like I said, it doesn't fix everything...but it's much more of a deterrent and it would help law enforcement more easily track illegal weapons and help determine where they originated and how they got into the wrong hands.
Yes, there will always be crazies...but regulations can mitigate and deter and make things more difficult for the crazies and criminals...as it is, they have it pretty friggin' easy. Just saying do nothing because there are crazies out there anyway doesn't make sense to me...why have any laws at all if we're just going to chalk it up to there will be people who don't follow the law.
Other countries have more stringent gun regulations and don't have the insane number of mass shootings and murder by gun that we have in the States.
And the, "other things can be used to kill" arguments get old...a gun serves one purpose and is a huge responsibility and it would seem common sense to have more stringent regulations on something that's purpose is to kill or mame.
And like I said before...I'm not opposed to guns...I own two...they are a huge responsibility.1 -
zachbonner_ wrote: »zachbonner_ wrote: »Licensing and registration would go a long way to focusing law enforcement on recovering illegal weapons.
Every "illegal" gun in the US started life as a legal purchase. At some point in its life it was stolen, lost, or sold illegally.
Making people register firearms, and holding them accountable for being lost, stolen, or sold, would reduce all of these.
People love to say "criminals will get guns" but are much more stubborn at actually looking at when and how the legal/illegal boundary is crossed.
Just admit that more stringent gun laws impact those that follow the law more than criminals. You know it's the truth.
see. You wrote this post thinking that I'm opposed to burdening legal gun owners. Hint. I'm not. As a law abiding citizen, and a responsible gun owner, I would happily take on additional burden.
Thanks for finally admitting it.
find me the post where I ever denied it.
Gun ownership SHOULD be burdensome. It's a huge responsibility that most people don't take seriously enough.9 -
Guns are tools whose only purpose in all of existence is to end life. Any improvised uses beyond the ending of life, human or animal, are outside the designers original intent.
My guns end the lives of many, many birds every year.
I guess I just think that the taking of life, and the purchase of tools towards that end are slight lower heavier responsibilities than you.1 -
beingmore1 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »beingmore1 wrote: »
Yes this is true, I can’t see how it would be hurtful to any lawful abiding gun owners. However. As stated previously it’s gonna do jack squat for the “bad guy” or “crazy guy” who doesn’t follow the law anyways. If this guy wanted to kill a lot of people, like another poster mentioned, he didn’t need to use guns. As we see with the suicide bombers who use buckets and nails to make bombs....they find a way. Should hardware stores be more regulated?cwolfman13 wrote: »SomebodyWakeUpHIcks wrote: »@browneyedgirl749 wrote: »To a certain extent, I do believe there should be stricter gun laws. In VA, it is not required you register a fire arm. I did, however, when I got mine, because I will be taking the class to get my conceal carry permit. The law can be stricter by making all gun owners register their guns.
Law makers can pass as many laws as they want about getting stricter gun laws, but as I said, and many others said, if people want a gun, they'll get it, legally or illegally. And people are smart. They can ban automatic weapons, but people will figure out how to turn a semi automatic into an automatic. It's the same way as people making home made bombs with simple cleaning supplies. Evil people will go to extra lengths to pull off events like this.
Here is the argument against that (not saying its right or wrong): Why would the gov't want a list of all gun owners? What purpose would that serve? It is so they track who they consider a threat? Who might resist a change in gov't?
Like I said before, I'm a gun owner...so I'm definitely not in the ban guns camp...but I think licensing and registration makes sense. Will it prevent anything from happening ever again? Of course not...no law or regulation can do that...but we still have laws and regulations.
I think registration could have advantages...like someone getting stopped or otherwise somehow involved with the police and has a gun and the police finds that individual in violation of the law because it's not registered...he might be just some guy that didn't register is gun...or he could be some evil POS who had bigger plans that were thwarted because he was caught with an unregistered gun.
I think it would be beneficial in tracking firearms...where did it come from and who was the last registered owner...this would also dissuade people from illegal gun sales and/or make them more responsible in making sure they report lost or stolen guns to the proper authorities. Any transfer would require a re-registration by the new owner...and a transfer of title or something from the seller to CYA incase the new owner isn't so responsible.
I would think a renewal process would need to be in place with another round of background checks, etc...it would be nice if they could include mental health background check, but that would likely be a HIPAA.
I would think registration would also deter "straw purchases"
IDK...these seem like common sense things to me. Not going to solve all of the problems of course, but there's more of a deterrence...it's way easier to go buy a gun than it is to buy and operate a motor vehicle...which seems weird to me.
Like I said, it doesn't fix everything...but it's much more of a deterrent and it would help law enforcement more easily track illegal weapons and help determine where they originated and how they got into the wrong hands.
Yes, there will always be crazies...but regulations can mitigate and deter and make things more difficult for the crazies and criminals...as it is, they have it pretty friggin' easy. Just saying do nothing because there are crazies out there anyway doesn't make sense to me...why have any laws at all if we're just going to chalk it up to there will be people who don't follow the law.
Other countries have more stringent gun regulations and don't have the insane number of mass shootings and murder by gun that we have in the States.
Good points. But the illegal stuff that’s out there isn’t going to be reported or trackable or preventable by Tom GoodCitizen filling out more forms. More regulation will certainly my help them track better what they have. Or to know that Tom’s gun was stolen then used in a shooting spree. So I see the point in having gun owners be more regulated. It’s a good thing. But I hope others see the point that it’s not the be all end all of this issue. It’s just not that black and white of an issue.
framing ANY gun control regulation as nothing able to end ALL gun crime is the oldest trick in the book. One that I don't put an ounce of stock in.
Traffic laws don't stop all car accidents, but they reduce them significantly.
OSHA regulations don't stop all workplace deaths, but they reduce them significantly
Food safety laws don't stop all deaths from food poisoning....
you see where this is going?3 -
To quote Ronald Reagan:
"While we recognize that assault weapon legislation will not stop all assault weapon crime, statistics prove that we can dry up the supply of these guns, making them less accessible to criminals."
and
"… If the passage of the Brady bill were to result in a reduction of only 10 or 15 percent of those numbers (and it could be a good deal greater), it would be well worth making it the law of the land."
Ronald.
Reagan.1 -
deleted0
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cabronlobos wrote: »I'm not trying to bait anyone here, I seriously would like to know, what gun law could have prevented that man from killing and injuring all those people in Las Vegas? I am for anyway from preventing something like that from ever happening again.....but I know of no law that matters if you plan on breaking it anyway.
More gun control means that these types of weapons will not be as easily obtained. Those with a mental health issues may not be as willing to consult with the type of people that can obtain these deadly weapons illegally in a more controlled environment. Yes, some "bad" ones will be able to get a hold of these type of weapons but under more control it makes it much harder. Make it tough for people to get these in their hands and the killings will decrease.0 -
beingmore1 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »beingmore1 wrote: »
Yes this is true, I can’t see how it would be hurtful to any lawful abiding gun owners. However. As stated previously it’s gonna do jack squat for the “bad guy” or “crazy guy” who doesn’t follow the law anyways. If this guy wanted to kill a lot of people, like another poster mentioned, he didn’t need to use guns. As we see with the suicide bombers who use buckets and nails to make bombs....they find a way. Should hardware stores be more regulated?cwolfman13 wrote: »SomebodyWakeUpHIcks wrote: »@browneyedgirl749 wrote: »To a certain extent, I do believe there should be stricter gun laws. In VA, it is not required you register a fire arm. I did, however, when I got mine, because I will be taking the class to get my conceal carry permit. The law can be stricter by making all gun owners register their guns.
Law makers can pass as many laws as they want about getting stricter gun laws, but as I said, and many others said, if people want a gun, they'll get it, legally or illegally. And people are smart. They can ban automatic weapons, but people will figure out how to turn a semi automatic into an automatic. It's the same way as people making home made bombs with simple cleaning supplies. Evil people will go to extra lengths to pull off events like this.
Here is the argument against that (not saying its right or wrong): Why would the gov't want a list of all gun owners? What purpose would that serve? It is so they track who they consider a threat? Who might resist a change in gov't?
Like I said before, I'm a gun owner...so I'm definitely not in the ban guns camp...but I think licensing and registration makes sense. Will it prevent anything from happening ever again? Of course not...no law or regulation can do that...but we still have laws and regulations.
I think registration could have advantages...like someone getting stopped or otherwise somehow involved with the police and has a gun and the police finds that individual in violation of the law because it's not registered...he might be just some guy that didn't register is gun...or he could be some evil POS who had bigger plans that were thwarted because he was caught with an unregistered gun.
I think it would be beneficial in tracking firearms...where did it come from and who was the last registered owner...this would also dissuade people from illegal gun sales and/or make them more responsible in making sure they report lost or stolen guns to the proper authorities. Any transfer would require a re-registration by the new owner...and a transfer of title or something from the seller to CYA incase the new owner isn't so responsible.
I would think a renewal process would need to be in place with another round of background checks, etc...it would be nice if they could include mental health background check, but that would likely be a HIPAA.
I would think registration would also deter "straw purchases"
IDK...these seem like common sense things to me. Not going to solve all of the problems of course, but there's more of a deterrence...it's way easier to go buy a gun than it is to buy and operate a motor vehicle...which seems weird to me.
Like I said, it doesn't fix everything...but it's much more of a deterrent and it would help law enforcement more easily track illegal weapons and help determine where they originated and how they got into the wrong hands.
Yes, there will always be crazies...but regulations can mitigate and deter and make things more difficult for the crazies and criminals...as it is, they have it pretty friggin' easy. Just saying do nothing because there are crazies out there anyway doesn't make sense to me...why have any laws at all if we're just going to chalk it up to there will be people who don't follow the law.
Other countries have more stringent gun regulations and don't have the insane number of mass shootings and murder by gun that we have in the States.
Good points. But the illegal stuff that’s out there isn’t going to be reported or trackable or preventable by Tom GoodCitizen filling out more forms. More regulation will certainly my help them track better what they have. Or to know that Tom’s gun was stolen then used in a shooting spree. So I see the point in having gun owners be more regulated. It’s a good thing. But I hope others see the point that it’s not the be all end all of this issue. It’s just not that black and white of an issue.
framing ANY gun control regulation as nothing able to end ALL gun crime is the oldest trick in the book. One that I don't put an ounce of stock in.
Traffic laws don't stop all car accidents, but they reduce them significantly.
OSHA regulations don't stop all workplace deaths, but they reduce them significantly
Food safety laws don't stop all deaths from food poisoning....
you see where this is going?
Agreed...
This seems like common sense to me...0 -
You can't stop all crime, so why is anything illegal at all? why even have a government, and laws? bad people are going to do bad things no matter what right?5
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beingmore1 wrote: »beingmore1 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »beingmore1 wrote: »
Yes this is true, I can’t see how it would be hurtful to any lawful abiding gun owners. However. As stated previously it’s gonna do jack squat for the “bad guy” or “crazy guy” who doesn’t follow the law anyways. If this guy wanted to kill a lot of people, like another poster mentioned, he didn’t need to use guns. As we see with the suicide bombers who use buckets and nails to make bombs....they find a way. Should hardware stores be more regulated?cwolfman13 wrote: »SomebodyWakeUpHIcks wrote: »@browneyedgirl749 wrote: »To a certain extent, I do believe there should be stricter gun laws. In VA, it is not required you register a fire arm. I did, however, when I got mine, because I will be taking the class to get my conceal carry permit. The law can be stricter by making all gun owners register their guns.
Law makers can pass as many laws as they want about getting stricter gun laws, but as I said, and many others said, if people want a gun, they'll get it, legally or illegally. And people are smart. They can ban automatic weapons, but people will figure out how to turn a semi automatic into an automatic. It's the same way as people making home made bombs with simple cleaning supplies. Evil people will go to extra lengths to pull off events like this.
Here is the argument against that (not saying its right or wrong): Why would the gov't want a list of all gun owners? What purpose would that serve? It is so they track who they consider a threat? Who might resist a change in gov't?
Like I said before, I'm a gun owner...so I'm definitely not in the ban guns camp...but I think licensing and registration makes sense. Will it prevent anything from happening ever again? Of course not...no law or regulation can do that...but we still have laws and regulations.
I think registration could have advantages...like someone getting stopped or otherwise somehow involved with the police and has a gun and the police finds that individual in violation of the law because it's not registered...he might be just some guy that didn't register is gun...or he could be some evil POS who had bigger plans that were thwarted because he was caught with an unregistered gun.
I think it would be beneficial in tracking firearms...where did it come from and who was the last registered owner...this would also dissuade people from illegal gun sales and/or make them more responsible in making sure they report lost or stolen guns to the proper authorities. Any transfer would require a re-registration by the new owner...and a transfer of title or something from the seller to CYA incase the new owner isn't so responsible.
I would think a renewal process would need to be in place with another round of background checks, etc...it would be nice if they could include mental health background check, but that would likely be a HIPAA.
I would think registration would also deter "straw purchases"
IDK...these seem like common sense things to me. Not going to solve all of the problems of course, but there's more of a deterrence...it's way easier to go buy a gun than it is to buy and operate a motor vehicle...which seems weird to me.
Like I said, it doesn't fix everything...but it's much more of a deterrent and it would help law enforcement more easily track illegal weapons and help determine where they originated and how they got into the wrong hands.
Yes, there will always be crazies...but regulations can mitigate and deter and make things more difficult for the crazies and criminals...as it is, they have it pretty friggin' easy. Just saying do nothing because there are crazies out there anyway doesn't make sense to me...why have any laws at all if we're just going to chalk it up to there will be people who don't follow the law.
Other countries have more stringent gun regulations and don't have the insane number of mass shootings and murder by gun that we have in the States.
Good points. But the illegal stuff that’s out there isn’t going to be reported or trackable or preventable by Tom GoodCitizen filling out more forms. More regulation will certainly my help them track better what they have. Or to know that Tom’s gun was stolen then used in a shooting spree. So I see the point in having gun owners be more regulated. It’s a good thing. But I hope others see the point that it’s not the be all end all of this issue. It’s just not that black and white of an issue.
framing ANY gun control regulation as nothing able to end ALL gun crime is the oldest trick in the book. One that I don't put an ounce of stock in.
Traffic laws don't stop all car accidents, but they reduce them significantly.
OSHA regulations don't stop all workplace deaths, but they reduce them significantly
Food safety laws don't stop all deaths from food poisoning....
you see where this is going?
I simply said that I see more gun control as a good thing however it must still be recognized that it is not the ONLY thing. Maybe you don’t see the point. Seems like it is a black or white issue for you. Better Gun control is part of the answer but certainly by no means the only answer. However many people choose to think with blinders on, on both sides of the argument and refuse to listen to others opinions. This gets all of us nowhere.
more gun control, better mental health care, literally anything else to reduce deaths by gunshot and incidences of mass shooting.
I'm all for it. All of them, any of them. Whatever works, whatever might work, whatever we can try to see if it works.
enough is enough.1 -
beingmore1 wrote: »beingmore1 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »beingmore1 wrote: »
Yes this is true, I can’t see how it would be hurtful to any lawful abiding gun owners. However. As stated previously it’s gonna do jack squat for the “bad guy” or “crazy guy” who doesn’t follow the law anyways. If this guy wanted to kill a lot of people, like another poster mentioned, he didn’t need to use guns. As we see with the suicide bombers who use buckets and nails to make bombs....they find a way. Should hardware stores be more regulated?cwolfman13 wrote: »SomebodyWakeUpHIcks wrote: »@browneyedgirl749 wrote: »To a certain extent, I do believe there should be stricter gun laws. In VA, it is not required you register a fire arm. I did, however, when I got mine, because I will be taking the class to get my conceal carry permit. The law can be stricter by making all gun owners register their guns.
Law makers can pass as many laws as they want about getting stricter gun laws, but as I said, and many others said, if people want a gun, they'll get it, legally or illegally. And people are smart. They can ban automatic weapons, but people will figure out how to turn a semi automatic into an automatic. It's the same way as people making home made bombs with simple cleaning supplies. Evil people will go to extra lengths to pull off events like this.
Here is the argument against that (not saying its right or wrong): Why would the gov't want a list of all gun owners? What purpose would that serve? It is so they track who they consider a threat? Who might resist a change in gov't?
Like I said before, I'm a gun owner...so I'm definitely not in the ban guns camp...but I think licensing and registration makes sense. Will it prevent anything from happening ever again? Of course not...no law or regulation can do that...but we still have laws and regulations.
I think registration could have advantages...like someone getting stopped or otherwise somehow involved with the police and has a gun and the police finds that individual in violation of the law because it's not registered...he might be just some guy that didn't register is gun...or he could be some evil POS who had bigger plans that were thwarted because he was caught with an unregistered gun.
I think it would be beneficial in tracking firearms...where did it come from and who was the last registered owner...this would also dissuade people from illegal gun sales and/or make them more responsible in making sure they report lost or stolen guns to the proper authorities. Any transfer would require a re-registration by the new owner...and a transfer of title or something from the seller to CYA incase the new owner isn't so responsible.
I would think a renewal process would need to be in place with another round of background checks, etc...it would be nice if they could include mental health background check, but that would likely be a HIPAA.
I would think registration would also deter "straw purchases"
IDK...these seem like common sense things to me. Not going to solve all of the problems of course, but there's more of a deterrence...it's way easier to go buy a gun than it is to buy and operate a motor vehicle...which seems weird to me.
Like I said, it doesn't fix everything...but it's much more of a deterrent and it would help law enforcement more easily track illegal weapons and help determine where they originated and how they got into the wrong hands.
Yes, there will always be crazies...but regulations can mitigate and deter and make things more difficult for the crazies and criminals...as it is, they have it pretty friggin' easy. Just saying do nothing because there are crazies out there anyway doesn't make sense to me...why have any laws at all if we're just going to chalk it up to there will be people who don't follow the law.
Other countries have more stringent gun regulations and don't have the insane number of mass shootings and murder by gun that we have in the States.
Good points. But the illegal stuff that’s out there isn’t going to be reported or trackable or preventable by Tom GoodCitizen filling out more forms. More regulation will certainly my help them track better what they have. Or to know that Tom’s gun was stolen then used in a shooting spree. So I see the point in having gun owners be more regulated. It’s a good thing. But I hope others see the point that it’s not the be all end all of this issue. It’s just not that black and white of an issue.
framing ANY gun control regulation as nothing able to end ALL gun crime is the oldest trick in the book. One that I don't put an ounce of stock in.
Traffic laws don't stop all car accidents, but they reduce them significantly.
OSHA regulations don't stop all workplace deaths, but they reduce them significantly
Food safety laws don't stop all deaths from food poisoning....
you see where this is going?
I simply said that I see more gun control as a good thing however it must still be recognized that it is not the ONLY thing. Maybe you don’t see the point. Seems like it is a black or white issue for you. Better Gun control is part of the answer but certainly by no means the only answer. However many people choose to think with blinders on, on both sides of the argument and refuse to listen to others opinions. This gets all of us nowhere.
Mental health care in this country is atrocious...it's definitely something that needs to be addressed in regards to this kind of gun violence. Someone who shoots into a crowd randomly isn't right in the head.
Mental health care in general needs to be addressed...but maybe have some kind of mental health evaluation done as part of the process of gun ownership as well...we do it for eyes and driving.2
This discussion has been closed.
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