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Can you call an ambulance for somebody without their consent?
NorthCascades
Posts: 10,968 Member
in Debate Club
I went to the gym to spend my lunch hour swimming laps. As I was getting ready to turn into the plaza parking lot, somebody was coming down the sidewalk, about to cross the driveway. His leg was in a cast and on a walker. He stopped to let me go first, but he had the right of way, so I waved him to go. He did, or started to, a car came way too fast out of nowhere and hit him hard. I heard a terrible crunching noise.
I left my car where it was and ran to help the guy. People behind me lost their *kitten*, because they to go around.
The guy was obviously in shock. It wasn't obvious whether he was injured or not. To me, the only thing to do is go to the hospital, and that seemed really clear. But not to him. He struggled to get up, I had to lift him to his good foot. The driver was beside herself with remorse, she was real helpful too. I've been hit by a car on my bike, I know what it is to be hurt and confused and not understand what's happening, and I could see it in his face.
He just wanted to go home. I kept telling him he needs to see a doctor, they'll do x-rays, they'll have pain medicine, you might feel ok now but you'll want it in an hour. I offered to go pick up his wife or girlfriend or anyone else and bring them to to him. I took his phone, added my number as a contact with the name "witness."
I managed to talk him into going to the hospital. The lady that hit him drove, so he wouldn't have to wait for the ambulance to arrive (or pay $1,000 for the ride).
In the moment I didn't feel like I could call 911 without his permission. But it was clear that he wasn't able to make that decision at the time. I really hope I never see anything like this again, but, if I do, can I just call the ambulance immediately?
I left my car where it was and ran to help the guy. People behind me lost their *kitten*, because they to go around.
The guy was obviously in shock. It wasn't obvious whether he was injured or not. To me, the only thing to do is go to the hospital, and that seemed really clear. But not to him. He struggled to get up, I had to lift him to his good foot. The driver was beside herself with remorse, she was real helpful too. I've been hit by a car on my bike, I know what it is to be hurt and confused and not understand what's happening, and I could see it in his face.
He just wanted to go home. I kept telling him he needs to see a doctor, they'll do x-rays, they'll have pain medicine, you might feel ok now but you'll want it in an hour. I offered to go pick up his wife or girlfriend or anyone else and bring them to to him. I took his phone, added my number as a contact with the name "witness."
I managed to talk him into going to the hospital. The lady that hit him drove, so he wouldn't have to wait for the ambulance to arrive (or pay $1,000 for the ride).
In the moment I didn't feel like I could call 911 without his permission. But it was clear that he wasn't able to make that decision at the time. I really hope I never see anything like this again, but, if I do, can I just call the ambulance immediately?
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Replies
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No, you don't need his permission. Once on the scene, the patient can refuse the trip to the hospital, and if the EMTs feel comfortable releasing him, they will. He doesn't have to pay for the ride to the hospital. But they might find evidence of trauma that a lay person can't tell, so they are the best people to evaluate and make that call. So if something like that happens, no, you don't need permission. Call.36
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You can call the ambulance.
Whether he chooses to go to hospital for assessment or treatment is up to him, unless the paramedics think he is too injured (like unconscious, delerious, etc) to make up that decision in which case they can take him anyway.
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Think about it a person unconscious on the footpall can't give consent, but you can still ring an ambulance as it's a medical emergency.
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You can call 911 without their permission, whether they are alert or unconscious. They have the right to deny care when the first responders arrive.8
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Depending on where you live there may indeed be a fee for an ambulance. The cost might be covered, at least in part, by your medical insurance policy5
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Thanks everyone.zachbonner_ wrote: »yes otherwise you wouldn't be allowed to call an ambulance for a passed out person
I think it's a little different because he kept saying he thought he was ok and didn't need anything but to get out of there. But it's still a good point, and I guess it's also a good point people have raised, that he would be able to deny care when they arrived, but I still would have done my duty as a human being by calling them.1 -
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Of course you can! You should ALWAYS call 911 after you witness an accident.4
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Where are you that someone hit by a car pays for their own ambulance?
That's the obligation of the insurance of the at fault driver.8 -
As others have said, you don't need his permission. He has the right to refuse ambulance transport. You have the right to summon EMS. His rights vis EMS do not supercede your rights (and legal obligations, in some jurisdictions).2
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He was probably afraid of going bankrupt from the medical bills. Several years ago, a family member of mine received a bill for $2,400 for a ride to the hospital - less than 1.5 miles away from his house. And that's small change compared to the price of the ER visit...5
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YvetteK2015 wrote: »No, you don't need his permission. Once on the scene, the patient can refuse the trip to the hospital, and if the EMTs feel comfortable releasing him, they will. He doesn't have to pay for the ride to the hospital. But they might find evidence of trauma that a lay person can't tell, so they are the best people to evaluate and make that call. So if something like that happens, no, you don't need permission. Call.
Not sure where you live but where I'm from there is a pretty hefty fee for a ride in an ambulance. The injured person may not have to pay, but someone will.5 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »YvetteK2015 wrote: »No, you don't need his permission. Once on the scene, the patient can refuse the trip to the hospital, and if the EMTs feel comfortable releasing him, they will. He doesn't have to pay for the ride to the hospital. But they might find evidence of trauma that a lay person can't tell, so they are the best people to evaluate and make that call. So if something like that happens, no, you don't need permission. Call.
Not sure where you live but where I'm from there is a pretty hefty fee for a ride in an ambulance. The injured person may not have to pay, but someone will.
I had an ambulance show up on scene after the police called them to triage after I fell in the street and got a nasty gash in my forehead (I just tripped over my feet and fell flat on my face one day while I was out walking).
That triage to tell me to go to a $35 urgent care visit where I got stitched up cost us $150.
I didn't want an ambulance called, but it was standard police procedure. I kind of wish the police hadn't been passing by!
Then there was the time I fell and broke my ankle very badly. You bet I was happy for the ambulance at that point. That was a bill we happily paid. It was a really bad fracture and I broke it going down the steps into the swimming pool. There was no way I could move on my own. I was happy people called for one then.
Oh, I just remembered another one. I was pregnant with my first and had hyperemesis. I was so sick I couldn't even stand up. My husband was over an hour away at work and the only nearby help was my elderly mother in law and her sister.
I needed to get to the ER to get IV fluids. She and her sister weren't strong enough to support me to get me to the car. Ambulance time! I didn't want it, she insisted and said she'd pay for it.2 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »YvetteK2015 wrote: »No, you don't need his permission. Once on the scene, the patient can refuse the trip to the hospital, and if the EMTs feel comfortable releasing him, they will. He doesn't have to pay for the ride to the hospital. But they might find evidence of trauma that a lay person can't tell, so they are the best people to evaluate and make that call. So if something like that happens, no, you don't need permission. Call.
Not sure where you live but where I'm from there is a pretty hefty fee for a ride in an ambulance. The injured person may not have to pay, but someone will.
I had an ambulance show up on scene after the police called them to triage after I fell in the street and got a nasty gash in my forehead (I just tripped over my feet and fell flat on my face one day while I was out walking).
That triage to tell me to go to a $35 urgent care visit where I got stitched up cost us $150.
I didn't want an ambulance called, but it was standard police procedure. I kind of wish the police hadn't been passing by!
Unfortunately, in this day and age of lawyers and 'sue happy' people, even the cops have to cover their *kitten* in situations like this. The same thing happened to my stepson - he got in a fight and punched out a window, the cops were called, an ambulance was called and it cost us $600 dollars...1 -
Someone should also have called the police. A pedestrian was hit by a car. You always call the police for anything like that.
The woman who hit the pedestrian should also have called her insurance company. If something happens to this man later and he decides to sue she can have a much, much bigger problem on her hands with the police and her insurance not covering anything. You just never know.10 -
Great stuff in this thread. Sad that this is the kind of thing you have to be prepared to deal with in modern life. The town I work in seems to have especially aggressive drivers. The guy probably wasn't trying to let me go out of politeness, he probably thought I'd hit him if he didn't give up his right of way. It's a sickening irony that if I had gone and have him wait, he would have been out of harm's way when the other driver came around.2
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I've had to take Red Cross first aid/cpr training several times for my job. You might find this helpful.
http://www.redcross.org/take-a-class/first-aid/perfoming-first-aid/first-aid-steps
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Call 911, and they'll send the police & ambulance. Someone can refuse care, but there'll at least be a police report of the incident. The driver's insurance should cover his medical expenses.
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You absolutely have the right to activate emergency response, but in this case the patient went to the hospital on their own. You did well - please continue to do so.
People in accidents (or any traumatic event) are rarely in their right minds due to the body's response to trauma. Blood to the extremities is limited, so people lose peripheral vision, hearing, cognitive thought, fine motor skills, and all higher reasoning.
Most Local/State laws have some manner of Good Samaritan laws in place to protect civilians from liability from taking reasonable actions to aid the injured. Need to check with your area to see what your laws are.3 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »YvetteK2015 wrote: »No, you don't need his permission. Once on the scene, the patient can refuse the trip to the hospital, and if the EMTs feel comfortable releasing him, they will. He doesn't have to pay for the ride to the hospital. But they might find evidence of trauma that a lay person can't tell, so they are the best people to evaluate and make that call. So if something like that happens, no, you don't need permission. Call.
Not sure where you live but where I'm from there is a pretty hefty fee for a ride in an ambulance. The injured person may not have to pay, but someone will.
Yep. My husband was hit by a car and the ambulance ride to the hospital was $1800. We had to pay up front, and wait two years before a settlement from the driver's insurance company paid us back.9 -
I mean, you CAN, but then they get stuck paying for the ambulance. It's about two grand where I live.2
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Was there a reason why no-one called the police to report the incident, though (even if the alleged driver was sorry and stayed to help)? Isn't that the right thing to do?
(I witnessed a car accident once and called 911 before I could even get out of my car to see if the lady was ok (her car tipped over/low speed/stuff from inside her car was all over the road... the lady was super scared, but unharmed).3 -
Pretty sure someone should have called 911 to report the accident. The driver probably should have stayed put until police arrived to take a report and deal with it.
A person can refuse treatment or refuse to be transported in the ambulance if they are conscious and aware. Just because you call doesn't mean they have to get in.2 -
Pretty sure someone should have called 911 to report the accident. The driver probably should have stayed put until police arrived to take a report and deal with it.
A person can refuse treatment or refuse to be transported in the ambulance if they are conscious and aware. Just because you call doesn't mean they have to get in.
Agreed. Where I live, if you don't get transported, you don't pay anything for the ambulance.2 -
I know a lot of you Americans consider our NHS here in the UK a commie abomination, but the thought of calling an ambulance being a tough moral decision is almost incomprehensible to me. It sounds like that guy was lucky you were there. Well done.30
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I am not a lawyer so I can't reproduce the actual law, but here (in Germany), you are actually "per definition" not liable for anything you do in good will of help as a first responder. Because otherwise people would be scared to do CPR (it might fail, the patient might get broken ribs) or help people which are confused or intoxicated. This means you can (and should) always call an ambulance unless you are 100% sure it is not needed. No matter what the patient says (they might be in shock, confused, intoxicated or in other ways not of good judgement of their own health).
I am sure other countries should have similar laws.4 -
It's the law here that you must call the police if a pedestrian is struck.
You can call an ambulance and if the patient has been unconscious for even one second, the hospital can detain them without their permission on the grounds that they are not in their right mind and capable of making decisions. If they have not been unconscious they can refuse care.
Something to remember if you are ever in this situation and DON'T feel like spending the night in the hospital - never admit you were unconscious, or say you aren't sure whether or not you were unconscious.4 -
rheddmobile wrote: »It's the law here that you must call the police if a pedestrian is struck.
You can call an ambulance and if the patient has been unconscious for even one second, the hospital can detain them without their permission on the grounds that they are not in their right mind and capable of making decisions. If they have not been unconscious they can refuse care.
Something to remember if you are ever in this situation and DON'T feel like spending the night in the hospital - never admit you were unconscious, or say you aren't sure whether or not you were unconscious.
I'm not sure where you are, but here in Texas I developed lactic acidosis from my metformin, and spent two days in the hospital. I made the mistake of saying I felt like I might pass out earlier that day when I felt unwell. I was never ever in any danger of actually passing out or falling, but they took my random comment very very seriously. For two days I had to be escorted to the bathroom every time I needed to get up.
And the treatment for lactic acidosis is running a *kitten*load of fluids through you. So I had to go a lot. Those poor nurses.
Always be careful what you say in a hospital.
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Wow - does this thread make me glad I live in the uk, with our (generally pretty admirable) nhs.
Fancy having to worry about which individual foots the bill for an ambulance.
We do lots of things wrong over here - and I respect (and have lived in) the States - but this one we surely have right.
I hope all concerned recovered ok...
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »YvetteK2015 wrote: »No, you don't need his permission. Once on the scene, the patient can refuse the trip to the hospital, and if the EMTs feel comfortable releasing him, they will. He doesn't have to pay for the ride to the hospital. But they might find evidence of trauma that a lay person can't tell, so they are the best people to evaluate and make that call. So if something like that happens, no, you don't need permission. Call.
Not sure where you live but where I'm from there is a pretty hefty fee for a ride in an ambulance. The injured person may not have to pay, but someone will.
Sorry, the way I stated it made it sound as if I was saying that people don't need to pay for the ambulance ride. What I was trying to say was that you don't need permission to call. Once on the scene, the person can refuse the transport, thus not having to pay for the ride. However, it may not be prudent to turn down that transport, especially if you have just been hit by a car.0
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