I do DVDs so I don't need to strength train

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  • Saving this to finish reading later; lots of great information in here though!
  • stroutman81
    stroutman81 Posts: 2,474 Member
    Thanks for tuning in guys!
  • aippolito1
    aippolito1 Posts: 4,894 Member
    I LOVELOVELOVE lifting heavy. Right now I'm nursing an injured shoulder though, and haven't been able to lift heavy for almost 3 months now. :sad: When I was, some of my exercises my trainer had me lifting so heavy I could barely do 6 reps. Others, I would go to 10, others 15. Once it becomes too light, I go up. I could tell I was getting stronger and within just a couple weeks of lifting like this, I could more easily do my regular push ups and I'd lost half an inch off my upper arms. Can't wait 'til I'm lifting heavy again! *sigh* I miss it.
  • ambermichon
    ambermichon Posts: 404 Member
    Great post! For so long I was focused on a number on the scale and not the inches I was losing from lifting. I started out light and now lift pretty heavy 2-3 times a week....now that more weight has come off I have muscle definition which is much easier on the eyes in my opinion than being skinny with none. :-)
  • stroutman81
    stroutman81 Posts: 2,474 Member
    I LOVELOVELOVE lifting heavy. Right now I'm nursing an injured shoulder though, and haven't been able to lift heavy for almost 3 months now. :sad: When I was, some of my exercises my trainer had me lifting so heavy I could barely do 6 reps. Others, I would go to 10, others 15. Once it becomes too light, I go up. I could tell I was getting stronger and within just a couple weeks of lifting like this, I could more easily do my regular push ups and I'd lost half an inch off my upper arms. Can't wait 'til I'm lifting heavy again! *sigh* I miss it.

    What happened to your shoulder?
  • stroutman81
    stroutman81 Posts: 2,474 Member
    Great post! For so long I was focused on a number on the scale and not the inches I was losing from lifting. I started out light and now lift pretty heavy 2-3 times a week....now that more weight has come off I have muscle definition which is much easier on the eyes in my opinion than being skinny with none. :-)

    Congrats. In my opinion, that's what it's all about for most people.
  • aippolito1
    aippolito1 Posts: 4,894 Member
    I LOVELOVELOVE lifting heavy. Right now I'm nursing an injured shoulder though, and haven't been able to lift heavy for almost 3 months now. :sad: When I was, some of my exercises my trainer had me lifting so heavy I could barely do 6 reps. Others, I would go to 10, others 15. Once it becomes too light, I go up. I could tell I was getting stronger and within just a couple weeks of lifting like this, I could more easily do my regular push ups and I'd lost half an inch off my upper arms. Can't wait 'til I'm lifting heavy again! *sigh* I miss it.

    What happened to your shoulder?

    I've been popping my neck for about a decade and it's finally gotten screwed up enough that it started affecting my shoulder. I have 2 discs (I guess?) that are twisted instead of laying straight and on top of each other... my shoulder got so bad, I couldn't even lift it to where my elbow was about parallel with my chest. It's a lot better now but I'm slowly trying to rebuild my strength. The other day I did 5 regular pushups but couldn't do anymore. Yesterday I could only do 2. I'm stuck doing 30 Day Shred with 3 lb weights. 5s are still too heavy. :grumble: I'm ready for my 12.5s! :sad:
  • stroutman81
    stroutman81 Posts: 2,474 Member
    I LOVELOVELOVE lifting heavy. Right now I'm nursing an injured shoulder though, and haven't been able to lift heavy for almost 3 months now. :sad: When I was, some of my exercises my trainer had me lifting so heavy I could barely do 6 reps. Others, I would go to 10, others 15. Once it becomes too light, I go up. I could tell I was getting stronger and within just a couple weeks of lifting like this, I could more easily do my regular push ups and I'd lost half an inch off my upper arms. Can't wait 'til I'm lifting heavy again! *sigh* I miss it.

    What happened to your shoulder?

    I've been popping my neck for about a decade and it's finally gotten screwed up enough that it started affecting my shoulder. I have 2 discs (I guess?) that are twisted instead of laying straight and on top of each other... my shoulder got so bad, I couldn't even lift it to where my elbow was about parallel with my chest. It's a lot better now but I'm slowly trying to rebuild my strength. The other day I did 5 regular pushups but couldn't do anymore. Yesterday I could only do 2. I'm stuck doing 30 Day Shred with 3 lb weights. 5s are still too heavy. :grumble: I'm ready for my 12.5s! :sad:

    Did you go through therapy at all?
  • stroutman81
    stroutman81 Posts: 2,474 Member
    Here's a great extension to this thread from a Q&A I was having with a fellow MFPer:

    http://body-improvements.com/2011/07/22/what-happens-when-you-reach-your-goal-weight-unsatisfied/
  • stroutman81
    stroutman81 Posts: 2,474 Member
    bump
  • FabCheeky
    FabCheeky Posts: 311
    Great info! Bumping for later reading. I'm always looking for more ways to make my strength training more efficient.
  • makena78
    makena78 Posts: 162 Member
    I do DVD's for strength training. I use Chalene Extreme which is all about building muscles. Then I add my cardio boosting videos everyday. So yes, you can use a DVD for muscle building. I started with 5lbs and now I'm at 12-15. I have learned proper forms and am so much stronger. No need for a gym.
  • Lanfear
    Lanfear Posts: 524
    Bump for reading tomorrow
  • I'm a little bit confused. I agree that resistance training is necessary. But are you saying that using my own body weight for strength training is not enough? ... I don't have time to be lifting weight at the gym... I do have 8 pound wight sat home. Is that not enough?

    Does picking up a 22lb toddler every day and walking up and down the stairs with her count as strength training? =P

    Seriously... do I HAVE to use weights to properly train my muscles?
  • stroutman81
    stroutman81 Posts: 2,474 Member
    I do DVD's for strength training. I use Chalene Extreme which is all about building muscles. Then I add my cardio boosting videos everyday. So yes, you can use a DVD for muscle building. I started with 5lbs and now I'm at 12-15. I have learned proper forms and am so much stronger. No need for a gym.

    Let me be very clear. I never said you need a gym. I said you need sufficiently heavy load to maximally stimulate your muscles. In other words, if you're to optimally improve your body composition (physique), you must lift sufficiently heavy weight with adequate volume.

    What's sufficiently heavy for you obviously won't be what's sufficiently heavy for me and what's sufficiently heavy for me won't be sufficiently heavy for s powerlifter. But it has to be heavy enough for YOUR muscles. For a complete novice, the simple act of walking can present enough of a muscular challenge to stimulate muscle growth. Put differently, walking can be a form of "strength training" for a novice.

    Eventually though, in order to optimize results, people are going to have to use loads that are too heavy use in a circuit fashion. It's that simple. And it's not meant to discredit improvements you or others obtain from circuit training. But I assume you... squats with 12 lbs or whatever are well below the level of tension that your leg muscles are capable of producing.

    You said you gotten "so much stronger" but at the same time you said you went from 5 to 15 lbs. I'm currently training a woman - we started with body weight squats. We progressed each week by doing goblet squats until we reached 45 lb DBs at which point we started doing barbell squats. That was 6 months ago. Today she's squatting 145 lbs for 5 sets of 5 reps.

    This isn't about "right" or "wrong." It's just that some people are missing the point I'm trying to make... which isn't a knock on them. It's likely my poor communication.

    Anyhow, thanks for furthering the conversation.
  • stroutman81
    stroutman81 Posts: 2,474 Member
    I'm a little bit confused. I agree that resistance training is necessary. But are you saying that using my own body weight for strength training is not enough?

    Enough for what? Everything in context.

    If you're looking to get stronger and to maximize your muscle maintenance (while losing fat) or growth (while eating in a surplus)... then eventually your body weight won't be sufficient.

    Think of it like this...

    Your muscles respond to challenges they're unaccustomed to by getting stronger and getting bigger (or maintaining while dieting). If the load isn't a challenge... then you won't see the associated adaptations.

    Most people around here are in the process of losing weight. Therefore the load or challenge is decreasing over time. That's the exact opposite that's required to improve muscle quality. To improve muscle quality, we need to progressively apply greater challenges to the muscles as it gets accustomed to higher and higher loads.

    Sure, you could increase the load by doing more reps over time. Eventually though you'd be doing cardio. Sure, you might be squatting for instance... but it's not the movement that makes something effective at improving muscle quality... rather it's the load. As you get used to your body weight, which shouldn't take very long at all... maybe a few weeks at most in general... what was once a stimulus for muscle quality will eventually become a stimulus for muscle endurance. Which is fine if you're looking for muscle endurance.

    But most people in the physique improvement game aren't shooting for that.

    Does that clarify things?
    ... I don't have time to be lifting weight at the gym... I do have 8 pound wight sat home. Is that not enough?

    Again, as I noted in the previous post... I never claimed you need to be going to the gym. You do need progressively heavier loads over time though for optimal body composition results. So 8 lbs might be enough right now. But next month or whatever it likely won't be as your body gets used to the load.
    Does picking up a 22lb toddler every day and walking up and down the stairs with her count as strength training? =P

    Haha, sure.

    See the story of Milo of Croton:

    http://www.oldtimestrongman.com/blog/2008/01/milo-and-bull.html
  • bump
  • End6ame
    End6ame Posts: 903
    Haha, sure.

    See the story of Milo of Croton:

    http://www.oldtimestrongman.com/blog/2008/01/milo-and-bull.html

    I love the story of Milo. Although it is potentially fabricated, it is a perfect example of progressive overload.
  • TTHdred
    TTHdred Posts: 380 Member
    Steve, I was hanging on to every word of this thread as if it were a new mystery novel!

    First let me say I am so glad to finally stumble upon a thread that is not about arguing semantics or hashing out some blanket rules with no explanations. Real constructive "support"

    Thank you so much for the information. And, I am actually glad that someone disagreed with you because it made you explain more and helped me better understand.

    I am a DVD/video kinda girl, so in addition to circuit training, I do have some that are true strength training. Where, there is no cardio in between and plenty of time for rest between sets. Each one focuses on different parts so upper, lower, chest etc and these are where I usually learn about form. BUT since I am usually not exerting myself (feeling dead tired), and the calories burned are so low, I tend to not do them as often. I feel sort of felt like it was a waste. So post times I pick the circuit or cardio training videos.

    My question: I tend work out around 5 times a week. Based on this and my new found knowledge, how often do you think I should do strength training….2/5?? Each week I try to make it more than 5times, but I really never go over this. Maybe I can’t do 6 times a week because I am burned out form so much cardiovascular and I can make it to 6 once strength training is added? Dunno.

    Thanks in advance (p.s. I can post to the Q&A on your website too if you prefer)
  • Lanfear
    Lanfear Posts: 524
    I have been focusing on cardio, but am aware that I really need to start strength-training if I am going to tone up the body fat that I have. According to my scales at home (which I know are not the most accurate things on the planet, but the only thing I have!) my BF% is 25.3 (or it was this morning). I am about 137 lbs and I don't want to lose much more weight (maybe another 5lbs) but I sure as hell want to sort out that fat!!!!!

    My question is, at the moment I don't have and can't afford gym membership. Like others here, I own resistance bands (set of 5, graded from 10-50lbs resistance) and I have various workout DVDs including ChaLean Extreme. I currenlty own one teeny-tiny kBell (haha) and a set of 3 dumbells, the biggest of which is only 2.2kg. Thing is though, the bands don't feel like they really do the ChaLean workouts justice, and sometimes I find it difficult to get them in the right place to do the exercises in time.

    What sort of thing can I be looking at doing at home, without having to spend a lot of money on weights? My main problem areas are my upper arms (triceps) and stomach. I know you can't "spot reduce" fat but can you "spot tone"???

    Thanks for any advice you can give :smile:

    PS - thought this article was interesting/funny!!

    http://www.mikemahler.com/articles/things_that_are_good_for_you.html
  • stroutman81
    stroutman81 Posts: 2,474 Member
    Steve, I was hanging on to every word of this thread as if it were a new mystery novel!

    First let me say I am so glad to finally stumble upon a thread that is not about arguing semantics or hashing out some blanket rules with no explanations. Real constructive "support"

    Thank you so much for the information. And, I am actually glad that someone disagreed with you because it made you explain more and helped me better understand.

    I am a DVD/video kinda girl, so in addition to circuit training, I do have some that are true strength training. Where, there is no cardio in between and plenty of time for rest between sets. Each one focuses on different parts so upper, lower, chest etc and these are where I usually learn about form. BUT since I am usually not exerting myself (feeling dead tired), and the calories burned are so low, I tend to not do them as often. I feel sort of felt like it was a waste. So post times I pick the circuit or cardio training videos.

    My question: I tend work out around 5 times a week. Based on this and my new found knowledge, how often do you think I should do strength training….2/5?? Each week I try to make it more than 5times, but I really never go over this. Maybe I can’t do 6 times a week because I am burned out form so much cardiovascular and I can make it to 6 once strength training is added? Dunno.

    Thanks in advance (p.s. I can post to the Q&A on your website too if you prefer)

    You bring up some good points...

    First I feel that it's important to explain the thread title. I worded it in such a way that it'd stir up controversy and draw views. In reality we can't generalize about ALL DVDs strength training programs being suboptimal. I've seen ones that are just fine... such as p90x. It's not something I'd ever do myself or recommend to a friend... but it utilizes traditional strength training paired with the foundational principles that drive optimal results in terms of muscle.

    So of course not all DVDs are created equal.

    Secondly, you brought up a great point about how strength training feels. It doesn't get you all jacked up in terms of heart and sweat rates. It doesn't leave you gasping for breath, generally speaking. And here's the kicker... it's not SUPPOSED TO. It challenges your body differently compared to more continuous forms of exercise.

    The problem is, everyone equates "success" to exercise that feels like conditioning and that's unfortunate. Everyone's listening to their bodies yet they don't speak the language.

    And I get it... intuition would tell you that hard, productive exercise leaves you sweaty with a high heart rate and a burning sensation in your muscles. It's just that there's a whole lot more to it... it being an optimum body composition.

    I might do 5-10 sets of 2-5 reps of very heavy deadlifts. It's going to feel entirely different than, say, H.I.I.T. or some circuit training. Both can be productive. But the productiveness is specific to the mode of exercise. Put differently... each of the varying approaches will lead to unique results.

    I've found that many people are too focused on the calories expended and the number on the scale. They're taking a numbers oriented approach over a results oriented approach.

    Proper nutrition AND exercise (cardio AND resistance training) work in synergy.

    Good nutrition = A
    Resistance training = B
    Cardio = C
    Total Health and Good Physique = D

    A+B+C=D

    Take A, B, or C out of the equation and you are operating sub-optimally and giving up unique benefits associated only with the dropped variable.

    Can you lose weight without lifting weights?

    Certainly. Losing weight is a function of being in a chronic/consistent energy deficit, meaning, more calories out than in. This deficit can be established however you see fit.... less food, more activity, a combo, etc.

    Will you look good only eating less without exercising?

    Probably not, unless you are genetically gifted. And if you were, you probably wouldn't be here.

    As for your question...

    I'm assuming that your goal is fat loss and muscle preservation. If that's the case, it takes more volume to build an attribute than it does to maintain an attribute. Meaning, if maximizing muscle growth was the goal, you'd like want to be hitting the weights 3-7 days per week. If maintenance is the goal though, you can get away with 2 full body sessions per week.
  • stroutman81
    stroutman81 Posts: 2,474 Member
    I have been focusing on cardio, but am aware that I really need to start strength-training if I am going to tone up the body fat that I have.

    For clarity's sake... please know that you don't tone up the fat that you have with strength training. Strength training works your muscles. Fat and muscle are separate tissues. I don't want you or anyone else thinking that lifting weights turns your fa into muscle because that's not how things work.
    My question is, at the moment I don't have and can't afford gym membership. Like others here, I own resistance bands (set of 5, graded from 10-50lbs resistance) and I have various workout DVDs including ChaLean Extreme. I currenlty own one teeny-tiny kBell (haha) and a set of 3 dumbells, the biggest of which is only 2.2kg. Thing is though, the bands don't feel like they really do the ChaLean workouts justice, and sometimes I find it difficult to get them in the right place to do the exercises in time.

    What sort of thing can I be looking at doing at home, without having to spend a lot of money on weights?

    Best bet would be to invest in adjustable dumbbells. i know most sporting good stores have them. This will help you progress to a certain point and hopefully at that point you'll be able to afford other alternative.

    Heck, I've even recommended that people use gallon jugs. Fill them up to a certain point that's challenging for a given movement. As you get stronger... add.
    My main problem areas are my upper arms (triceps) and stomach. I know you can't "spot reduce" fat but can you "spot tone"???

    Spot reducing is the same as spot toning in my mind. Where I come from, toning isn't a verb. It's an adjective, as in toned, that describes what someone looks like when they've minimized their fat stores while ensuring the maintenance of muscle. Less fat covering an equal or even greater amount of muscle gives you that shaped look.

    But if you're asking if you can target certain muscles with weights... you certainly can. You could target your tricep muscles (the ones on the back of your arms) with things like bench press, skull crushers. pressdowns, close grip pushups, dips, etc. And if you progressively overload them, they'll respond. But that's not going to have a significant impact on the fat that's covering them.
  • Lanfear
    Lanfear Posts: 524
    I have been focusing on cardio, but am aware that I really need to start strength-training if I am going to tone up the body fat that I have.

    For clarity's sake... please know that you don't tone up the fat that you have with strength training. Strength training works your muscles. Fat and muscle are separate tissues. I don't want you or anyone else thinking that lifting weights turns your fa into muscle because that's not how things work.
    My question is, at the moment I don't have and can't afford gym membership. Like others here, I own resistance bands (set of 5, graded from 10-50lbs resistance) and I have various workout DVDs including ChaLean Extreme. I currenlty own one teeny-tiny kBell (haha) and a set of 3 dumbells, the biggest of which is only 2.2kg. Thing is though, the bands don't feel like they really do the ChaLean workouts justice, and sometimes I find it difficult to get them in the right place to do the exercises in time.

    What sort of thing can I be looking at doing at home, without having to spend a lot of money on weights?

    Best bet would be to invest in adjustable dumbbells. i know most sporting good stores have them. This will help you progress to a certain point and hopefully at that point you'll be able to afford other alternative.

    Heck, I've even recommended that people use gallon jugs. Fill them up to a certain point that's challenging for a given movement. As you get stronger... add.
    My main problem areas are my upper arms (triceps) and stomach. I know you can't "spot reduce" fat but can you "spot tone"???

    Spot reducing is the same as spot toning in my mind. Where I come from, toning isn't a verb. It's an adjective, as in toned, that describes what someone looks like when they've minimized their fat stores while ensuring the maintenance of muscle. Less fat covering an equal or even greater amount of muscle gives you that shaped look.

    But if you're asking if you can target certain muscles with weights... you certainly can. You could target your tricep muscles (the ones on the back of your arms) with things like bench press, skull crushers. pressdowns, close grip pushups, dips, etc. And if you progressively overload them, they'll respond. But that's not going to have a significant impact on the fat that's covering them.

    Thanks for the reply :smile:

    I know you can't "tone" fat and that it doesn't turn into muscle - sorry, that was particularly bad phrasing on my part!!! I know what I meant, I just failed to say it in any way that made sense.... d'oh!

    What I want to do is REDUCE my body fat. I can feel some muscles (upper abs, for example) developing, or coming through, but they're still covered by that layer of squidgy fat. That's what I want to get rid of, so that instead of a bit that wobbles when I jump up and down, it's flat and - well - er - the word I would normallly use is "toned" but I can't think of what should go in there instead now! I don't expect to have a washboard stomach or a 6-pack but I would like something that isn't a flabby mass.

    One point you make above is that certain exercises will make the muscles respond but won't have a significant effect on the fat that covers them. What would?

    The running I've been doing has helped to some degree - my lower stomach is certainly a lot tighter (?) than it was and my legs are leaner. However there are still those problem areas, that I guess we all have to some degree, that I am struggling with. I will also admit that some of the exercises you've named (skullcrushers??? goblet squats??) I have never heard of! :embarassed:

    Does that make a bit more sense? :smile:

    thank you.
  • stroutman81
    stroutman81 Posts: 2,474 Member
    One point you make above is that certain exercises will make the muscles respond but won't have a significant effect on the fat that covers them. What would?

    A calorie deficit.

    Which comes from controlled intake paired with reasonable amounts of structured exercise.

    The deficit taps into the stored energy (fat), and the strength training influences the quality of weight loss by helping promote muscle maintenance while being in said deficit.

    To expand a bit, let's look at what maintenance calories really means and go from there...

    The body is in a constant flux of building up and breaking down. The maintenance level is the amount of energy it takes to fuel the building up so that it balances out the breaking down. This is vastly oversimplified, of course, but sufficient for the conversation.

    At any rate, maintenance assumes that you have exactly enough energy to support all the energy you're expending in a given day (basal metabolism, activity, and digestion/utilization of food). Conservation of energy and all that good stuff that you never paid attention to in physics class, haha... energy output = energy input, so there's no net change to the system. Weight stays the same.

    When you're eating under maintenance, you're providing less energy than is required to maintain that balance. The body needs that energy, so it gets it from the only choice it has: the existing tissues. In a perfect world, this is fat. In the real world, it's fat and muscle (another reason high protein is important while dieting).

    In terms of energy requirements, muscle building is a very intensive process. Heck, even maintaining muscle is metabolically costly relative to fat. When your body is short-changed on energy, especially when you're relatively lean already, your body's starvation avoidance systems help to shed muscle.

    Your body sees muscle as a wasteful resource (beyond the bare bones minimum) and fat as an energy depot to help ensure survival during times of energy shortfalls.

    All of this to make the point that in order to give you best chances of reaching your goal physique, you need to let the deficit take care of the fat loss, which will occur in a genetically predetermined pattern.... and let the strength training take care of the muscle.

    Does that clear things up at all?
  • Lanfear
    Lanfear Posts: 524
    One point you make above is that certain exercises will make the muscles respond but won't have a significant effect on the fat that covers them. What would?

    A calorie deficit.

    Which comes from controlled intake paired with reasonable amounts of structured exercise.

    The deficit taps into the stored energy (fat), and the strength training influences the quality of weight loss by helping promote muscle maintenance while being in said deficit.

    To expand a bit, let's look at what maintenance calories really means and go from there...

    The body is in a constant flux of building up and breaking down. The maintenance level is the amount of energy it takes to fuel the building up so that it balances out the breaking down. This is vastly oversimplified, of course, but sufficient for the conversation.

    At any rate, maintenance assumes that you have exactly enough energy to support all the energy you're expending in a given day (basal metabolism, activity, and digestion/utilization of food). Conservation of energy and all that good stuff that you never paid attention to in physics class, haha... energy output = energy input, so there's no net change to the system. Weight stays the same.

    When you're eating under maintenance, you're providing less energy than is required to maintain that balance. The body needs that energy, so it gets it from the only choice it has: the existing tissues. In a perfect world, this is fat. In the real world, it's fat and muscle (another reason high protein is important while dieting).

    In terms of energy requirements, muscle building is a very intensive process. Heck, even maintaining muscle is metabolically costly relative to fat. When your body is short-changed on energy, especially when you're relatively lean already, your body's starvation avoidance systems help to shed muscle.

    Your body sees muscle as a wasteful resource (beyond the bare bones minimum) and fat as an energy depot to help ensure survival during times of energy shortfalls.

    All of this to make the point that in order to give you best chances of reaching your goal physique, you need to let the deficit take care of the fat loss, which will occur in a genetically predetermined pattern.... and let the strength training take care of the muscle.

    Does that clear things up at all?

    Yes, it certainly makes sense. How I apply it to me is where I struggle a bit. Currently my calorie goal here is set to 1460 (this follows something you posted in another thread, I think it was about "frantic to adhere to the right calorie intake?". I worked out the calculation you had there for roughly what I wanted to do at the time, which was lose 20lbs. Initially my calories were set by MFP to the world-wide 1200 so I have upped them a little from the initial goal. I also eat most of my exercise calories back, where I can (not always possible if I do a run at night) which I know is a massive debate in and of itself.

    Now I'm on the "home stretch" as such; I've remained consistently at the same point now for approx 6-8 weeks, and although I have lost 20lbs, my muscle definition is sadly lacking, if that's the right term - not sure what is. "Skinny fat" comes to mind as the best description probably!!

    I want to lose/reduce fat while maintaining the muscle I already have. I am assuming that with 14-1500 cals there is still a deficit built in so presumably I don't need to reduce that back down again - so that cover the last thing you mention - "let the deficit take care of the fat".

    In the meantime I would say that currently virtually all my excercise (running, biking, horseriding) is cardio-based and I do no resistance training of any type - through a combination of (a) being clueless and (b) lack of equipment/money. I know I should be doing it, I just don't know quite how and what.... d'oh!
  • stroutman81
    stroutman81 Posts: 2,474 Member
    Yes, it certainly makes sense.

    Good.
    How I apply it to me is where I struggle a bit. Currently my calorie goal here is set to 1460 (this follows something you posted in another thread, I think it was about "frantic to adhere to the right calorie intake?". I worked out the calculation you had there for roughly what I wanted to do at the time, which was lose 20lbs. Initially my calories were set by MFP to the world-wide 1200 so I have upped them a little from the initial goal. I also eat most of my exercise calories back, where I can (not always possible if I do a run at night) which I know is a massive debate in and of itself.

    Now I'm on the "home stretch" as such; I've remained consistently at the same point now for approx 6-8 weeks, and although I have lost 20lbs, my muscle definition is sadly lacking, if that's the right term - not sure what is. "Skinny fat" comes to mind as the best description probably!!

    I want to lose/reduce fat while maintaining the muscle I already have. I am assuming that with 14-1500 cals there is still a deficit built in so presumably I don't need to reduce that back down again - so that cover the last thing you mention - "let the deficit take care of the fat".

    This is how I go about calories.

    I set maintenance at 14-16 calories per pound. Most tend to start most women or people who've already lost a considerable amount of weight at 14 and most men and highly active people at 16. Of course there are always those outliers who seem to have a sluggish metabolism or seem to be mostly sedentary... and in those cases, I might slide the entire spectrum down slightly, to say, 12-14 cals/lb. On the other side of the fence, there are always those who seem to be gifted in the metabolism department or they're highly highly active and I might slide their maintenance spectrum up to 16-18.

    It all depends on the individual and circumstances.... but it's just a starting point anyhow... so not all that important. It's how they adapt their approach according to what's happening in response to the starting point that is important.

    Once a reasonable estimate has been made about maintenance, I subtract 25-35% from it to reach a daily calorie target. There are cases where I'll go above or below this range... but by and large this is the range I work with. I'll typically hover on the lower end of that range for lighter folks and the higher end of the range for heavier folks.

    With this method, you don't have to worry about eating exercise calories back or not. Here's why...

    The 14-16 calories per pound for maintenance assumes the person is exercising most days of the week. So exercise calories are already factored in. Meaning anything below this maintenance intake should be a "raw" deficit... meaning it doesn't need any manipulation. It's net, in other words.

    Make sense?
    In the meantime I would say that currently virtually all my excercise (running, biking, horseriding) is cardio-based and I do no resistance training of any type - through a combination of (a) being clueless and (b) lack of equipment/money. I know I should be doing it, I just don't know quite how and what.... d'oh!

    Here's a resource you might consider checking out:

    http://www.amazon.com/Mens-Health-Home-Workout-Bible/dp/1579546579

    But look... start with some basic movements using solely your body weight where you're focusing more on form/execution than anything else. Do this for a few weeks until you're 100% comfortable with each movement. Then you can start loading the movements with whatever your have available... dumbbells, bands, gallon jogs, babies, books, or whatever!

    From there though, progression of the load is very important. Which is why asking if "8 lb dumbbells is enough" is sort of silly. They're enough for right now, maybe. But your body will grow accustomed to this load and at that point will stop responding to it.

    You could do something as simple as:

    Body weight squats 3x15
    Single Leg Romanian Deadlifts - 2x8 each leg
    Pullups or assisted pullups - 3x12 (pullup bars are cheap and easy to install)
    Pushups or modified pushups - 3x12

    You could throw some accessory stuff in at the end for your core, arms and shoulders if you'd like, but it's really not necessary.

    On another day you could simply repeat that workout or you could do something like:

    Hip Thrusts
    Reverse Lunges
    Inverted Rows
    Pushups or modified pushups

    Using the same sets and reps as above.

    You really have to get created when you're limited to little to no tools (DBs, bars, weight plates, benches, racks, etc).

    Here are some videos of the exercises I listed above:

    Squats: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9W2jnmUXdo

    Single Leg Romanian Deads: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umqj_m8J2vw

    Assisted Pullups and Pushups: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-mGDKS-13c

    Or you could do the basic modified pushup: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpj_hL_m0tA

    Or you could do eccentric/jump pullups: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrZ2P2XoSNA

    Hip Thrusts: http://www.youtube.com/user/bretcontreras1#p/u/60/4w9JN9XRc_c (with this you could simply lean back against a low table - you'd need to put a towel under you for padding - or you could even lay back against a chair. You could eventually load the movement by putting weights on your waist area... books, dumbbells, or whatever)

    Reverse Lunge: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqpYfzQvsdI

    Inverted Rows: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYUxXMGVuuU

    For more advanced folks, you can check my buddy's (Bret Contreras) video out here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQYukgzj_kU

    Realize that all the exercises Bret demonstrates in that video can be progressively loaded.

    You are hopefully getting the idea here. And don't think of the above as a rigid program... it's just a quick example of what can be done. There are many ways of structuring things.

    Once you graduate to "real" weights, I'd suggest reading through Mark Rippetoe's books titled Practical Programming and Starting Strength.

    For the record... a beginner program for one of my clients coming to my gym might be as simple as this:

    Squat
    Bench Press
    Deadlift
    Pullups

    Start with the bar, do 5-8 reps. Add 5-10 lbs. Repeat. Do this for a total of 4-6 sets for each exercise. Workout over.

    Do this for a few weeks, or even months if the progress keeps up. Try to beat your weights each time. You can start adding some variety then, maybe this:

    Workout A

    Squat
    Bench Press
    Barbell Row
    Dips

    Workout B

    Front Squat
    Military Press
    Deadlift
    Pullups

    Alternate between those 2-3 times a week, stick to sets of 5 on the barbell lifts and do 4-6 sets. You can do higher rep stuff on the dips and pullups. I'll also throw in some accessory stuff here and there for single limb work, core, and arms.
  • Lanfear
    Lanfear Posts: 524
    Yes, it certainly makes sense.

    Good.
    How I apply it to me is where I struggle a bit. Currently my calorie goal here is set to 1460 (this follows something you posted in another thread, I think it was about "frantic to adhere to the right calorie intake?". I worked out the calculation you had there for roughly what I wanted to do at the time, which was lose 20lbs. Initially my calories were set by MFP to the world-wide 1200 so I have upped them a little from the initial goal. I also eat most of my exercise calories back, where I can (not always possible if I do a run at night) which I know is a massive debate in and of itself.

    Now I'm on the "home stretch" as such; I've remained consistently at the same point now for approx 6-8 weeks, and although I have lost 20lbs, my muscle definition is sadly lacking, if that's the right term - not sure what is. "Skinny fat" comes to mind as the best description probably!!

    I want to lose/reduce fat while maintaining the muscle I already have. I am assuming that with 14-1500 cals there is still a deficit built in so presumably I don't need to reduce that back down again - so that cover the last thing you mention - "let the deficit take care of the fat".

    This is how I go about calories.

    I set maintenance at 14-16 calories per pound. Most tend to start most women or people who've already lost a considerable amount of weight at 14 and most men and highly active people at 16. Of course there are always those outliers who seem to have a sluggish metabolism or seem to be mostly sedentary... and in those cases, I might slide the entire spectrum down slightly, to say, 12-14 cals/lb. On the other side of the fence, there are always those who seem to be gifted in the metabolism department or they're highly highly active and I might slide their maintenance spectrum up to 16-18.

    It all depends on the individual and circumstances.... but it's just a starting point anyhow... so not all that important. It's how they adapt their approach according to what's happening in response to the starting point that is important.

    Once a reasonable estimate has been made about maintenance, I subtract 25-35% from it to reach a daily calorie target. There are cases where I'll go above or below this range... but by and large this is the range I work with. I'll typically hover on the lower end of that range for lighter folks and the higher end of the range for heavier folks.

    With this method, you don't have to worry about eating exercise calories back or not. Here's why...

    The 14-16 calories per pound for maintenance assumes the person is exercising most days of the week. So exercise calories are already factored in. Meaning anything below this maintenance intake should be a "raw" deficit... meaning it doesn't need any manipulation. It's net, in other words.

    Make sense?
    In the meantime I would say that currently virtually all my excercise (running, biking, horseriding) is cardio-based and I do no resistance training of any type - through a combination of (a) being clueless and (b) lack of equipment/money. I know I should be doing it, I just don't know quite how and what.... d'oh!

    Here's a resource you might consider checking out:

    http://www.amazon.com/Mens-Health-Home-Workout-Bible/dp/1579546579

    But look... start with some basic movements using solely your body weight where you're focusing more on form/execution than anything else. Do this for a few weeks until you're 100% comfortable with each movement. Then you can start loading the movements with whatever your have available... dumbbells, bands, gallon jogs, babies, books, or whatever!

    From there though, progression of the load is very important. Which is why asking if "8 lb dumbbells is enough" is sort of silly. They're enough for right now, maybe. But your body will grow accustomed to this load and at that point will stop responding to it.

    You could do something as simple as:

    Body weight squats 3x15
    Single Leg Romanian Deadlifts - 2x8 each leg
    Pullups or assisted pullups - 3x12 (pullup bars are cheap and easy to install)
    Pushups or modified pushups - 3x12

    You could throw some accessory stuff in at the end for your core, arms and shoulders if you'd like, but it's really not necessary.

    On another day you could simply repeat that workout or you could do something like:

    Hip Thrusts
    Reverse Lunges
    Inverted Rows
    Pushups or modified pushups

    Using the same sets and reps as above.

    You really have to get created when you're limited to little to no tools (DBs, bars, weight plates, benches, racks, etc).

    Here are some videos of the exercises I listed above:

    Squats: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9W2jnmUXdo

    Single Leg Romanian Deads: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umqj_m8J2vw

    Assisted Pullups and Pushups: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-mGDKS-13c

    Or you could do the basic modified pushup: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpj_hL_m0tA

    Or you could do eccentric/jump pullups: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrZ2P2XoSNA

    Hip Thrusts: http://www.youtube.com/user/bretcontreras1#p/u/60/4w9JN9XRc_c (with this you could simply lean back against a low table - you'd need to put a towel under you for padding - or you could even lay back against a chair. You could eventually load the movement by putting weights on your waist area... books, dumbbells, or whatever)

    Reverse Lunge: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqpYfzQvsdI

    Inverted Rows: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYUxXMGVuuU

    For more advanced folks, you can check my buddy's (Bret Contreras) video out here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQYukgzj_kU

    Realize that all the exercises Bret demonstrates in that video can be progressively loaded.

    You are hopefully getting the idea here. And don't think of the above as a rigid program... it's just a quick example of what can be done. There are many ways of structuring things.

    Once you graduate to "real" weights, I'd suggest reading through Mark Rippetoe's books titled Practical Programming and Starting Strength.

    For the record... a beginner program for one of my clients coming to my gym might be as simple as this:

    Squat
    Bench Press
    Deadlift
    Pullups

    Start with the bar, do 5-8 reps. Add 5-10 lbs. Repeat. Do this for a total of 4-6 sets for each exercise. Workout over.

    Do this for a few weeks, or even months if the progress keeps up. Try to beat your weights each time. You can start adding some variety then, maybe this:

    Workout A

    Squat
    Bench Press
    Barbell Row
    Dips

    Workout B

    Front Squat
    Military Press
    Deadlift
    Pullups

    Alternate between those 2-3 times a week, stick to sets of 5 on the barbell lifts and do 4-6 sets. You can do higher rep stuff on the dips and pullups. I'll also throw in some accessory stuff here and there for single limb work, core, and arms.

    That's amazing, thank you so much for your help and time in typing all this out! I will print this off and read/digest properly.

    I imagine it will help others as well as I have seen a few posts about people new to weights and lifting etc so this should benefit a whole lot of people.

    Much appreciated! :smile:
  • lovetowrite73
    lovetowrite73 Posts: 1,244 Member
    Wow. I just spent the past several minutes reading this entire thread. Thank you so much for taking the time to address the questions that have been posted in layman's terms. I too am doing ChaLEAN Extreme (maybe one day you could review that too :smile:) and really love how powerful the workouts make me feel. And now with the knowledge I have gained from this thread, I am looking forward to even better results! Thanks again.
  • Lanfear
    Lanfear Posts: 524
    This is how I go about calories.

    I set maintenance at 14-16 calories per pound. Most tend to start most women or people who've already lost a considerable amount of weight at 14 and most men and highly active people at 16. Of course there are always those outliers who seem to have a sluggish metabolism or seem to be mostly sedentary... and in those cases, I might slide the entire spectrum down slightly, to say, 12-14 cals/lb. On the other side of the fence, there are always those who seem to be gifted in the metabolism department or they're highly highly active and I might slide their maintenance spectrum up to 16-18.

    It all depends on the individual and circumstances.... but it's just a starting point anyhow... so not all that important. It's how they adapt their approach according to what's happening in response to the starting point that is important.

    Once a reasonable estimate has been made about maintenance, I subtract 25-35% from it to reach a daily calorie target. There are cases where I'll go above or below this range... but by and large this is the range I work with. I'll typically hover on the lower end of that range for lighter folks and the higher end of the range for heavier folks.

    With this method, you don't have to worry about eating exercise calories back or not. Here's why...

    The 14-16 calories per pound for maintenance assumes the person is exercising most days of the week. So exercise calories are already factored in. Meaning anything below this maintenance intake should be a "raw" deficit... meaning it doesn't need any manipulation. It's net, in other words.

    Make sense?

    Errmmmmm...... no..... Sorry, I'm being really thick about this (I've never quite got to grips with this stuff and numbers are not my strong point LOL).

    So with regards to the above - for me, at 137lbs x 14cals, that comes to 1918 for maintenance per day. If I subtract 25% from 1918 to give me a deficit, that sets me 1438.5 as a daily goal. If I then go for a run that uses, say, 500 cals, BUT my daily goal is 1438, does that not mean that I am only actually giving my body 938 calories to sort itself out on from actual food/drink consumed?

    *Puts on dunce hat and waits*
  • stroutman81
    stroutman81 Posts: 2,474 Member
    Wow. I just spent the past several minutes reading this entire thread. Thank you so much for taking the time to address the questions that have been posted in layman's terms. I too am doing ChaLEAN Extreme (maybe one day you could review that too :smile:) and really love how powerful the workouts make me feel. And now with the knowledge I have gained from this thread, I am looking forward to even better results! Thanks again.

    You're welcome. Thanks for following along!

    I'll likely never see ChaLEAN unless one of my clients gives me a copy for review.

    Here's the thing though...

    As long as a strength training program has you using big movements (think squat variations, lunge variations, hip-hinge variations such as dealifts and hip thrusts, pressing and pulling) with weight that keeps you under 15 reps... it's probably okay. More importantly, it has to have said weight increasing over time.

    Which is one of the big problems I've encountered. I've found that most women following DVDs from home have a couple sets of light dumbbells that aren't adjustable. So they never really wind up increasing the load, which is, at the end of the day, the most important variable when it comes to strength training and the adaptations we're hoping to achieve from it.

    But if you're doing big movements with relatively heavy weights and increasing those weights over time.... you're probably on an okay course. If ChaLEAN has you doing this... good.

    You know it's a problem though when they have people squatting and overhead pressing the same weight.
This discussion has been closed.