The Importance of Willpower for Weight Loss
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In my opinion, forget willpower. You can't reply on it. You can't even rely on motivation. Rely on DISCIPLINE which means you do something even if you don't feel it. DISCIPLINE is what will move you forward in the long run. Don't feel like getting up to run when you said to yourself the night before you will? Do it anyway. That will work towards developing the discipline to do it anyway. The problem is if you skip it, it will be much easier to just skip it the next time you're supposed to do it.12
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I continue to follow the interesting discussion on here. BTW, my original post was thrown out there more as a topic of discussion than a personal plea, but my own situation does make me wonder about the limits of willpower. I have lost about 70 lbs in smaller chunks over the course of about 3-4 years despite some challenges and have mostly kept it off. So clearly, I was able to make some willpower available to get that done. I'm still a good ways from my healthy weight range, though, and just haven't been able stay focused the last couple of years to tackle the rest. (I know this is a common problem.) I still have the willpower to log daily, I still do exercise I enjoy (primarily for my mental well-being). But so far, I haven't been able to dig deep and find the willpower to regularly achieve a calorie deficit going forward . The OP seemed to possibly shine a light on that- there are many areas of my life that require extra effort to do things I don't want to be doing- and I think that could well be hindering my ability/willingness to make a sacrifice in yet another area. In my case, I know I still have a bit of wiggle room willpower-wise, at least some of the time. But it made me wonder if a person could genuinely get maxed-out in his or her ability to tackle weight loss, at least at a given time. It's very easy to say a person has a choice to stop spending their energy on other things, but life is not always so cut & dried. If it were primarily a time issue, maybe, but it's my understanding we're talking about the mental effort required here.
At any rate, it was never my intent to argue or be a downer here. I wholeheartedly agree with the principle that we need to limit the unnecessary drains on our physical, mental, & emotional energy to the extent we can in order to focus on more productive things. I also really appreciated the thought that was brought out later about the notion of willpower being strengthened through use.
Here's another question I've been thinking about... are willpower and self-discipline basically the same thing? If so, and willpower is finite, would that mean that self-discipline is finite as well? Discuss
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leonhnchan wrote: »In my opinion, forget willpower. You can't reply on it. You can't even rely on motivation. Rely on DISCIPLINE which means you do something even if you don't feel it. DISCIPLINE is what will move you forward in the long run. Don't feel like getting up to run when you said to yourself the night before you will? Do it anyway. That will work towards developing the discipline to do it anyway. The problem is if you skip it, it will be much easier to just skip it the next time you're supposed to do it.
You posted before I asked my question on this topic, but the definition I'm finding for willpower is "control exerted to do something or restrain impulses". Isn't that basically the same thing as discipline?0 -
leonhnchan wrote: »In my opinion, forget willpower. You can't reply on it. You can't even rely on motivation. Rely on DISCIPLINE which means you do something even if you don't feel it. DISCIPLINE is what will move you forward in the long run. Don't feel like getting up to run when you said to yourself the night before you will? Do it anyway. That will work towards developing the discipline to do it anyway. The problem is if you skip it, it will be much easier to just skip it the next time you're supposed to do it.
You posted before I asked my question on this topic, but the definition I'm finding for willpower is "control exerted to do something or restrain impulses". Isn't that basically the same thing as discipline?
In my simplistic opinion, willpower is something you consciously think about and it tends to be something that is limited, just like the op said. Discipline is something you don't even think about like brushing your teeth every morning without even thinking about it. But my point is, when you don't feel like exercising when you are supposed to, that is when it's especially important that you do it anyway.3 -
I really need a tl:dr version. I have no motivation to read all these words.
TL,DR - don't make it harder than you have to. Works better if you make it easier for yourself ..
Would you agree Aaron that this is your post in a nutshell?
I have said similar on here about logging - don't aim to do it perfectly, aim to do it as as lazily and easily as gets results for you.
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When I hear "discipline" I think that it implies a negative connotation about people who are struggling, as though it's something they are lacking that represents a flaw in them. It feels judgmental to me in a way that willpower doesn't.
I would rather use "habitual" for the definition of "does something without even thinking about it." And I think the optimal use of willpower is using it long enough for something to become habitual. Then you will have that willpower available in other areas. I very much agree with OP, though. Sometimes what someone really needs isn't more discipline or more willpower, what they need is help/reassessment of priorities, etc.
This has been an interesting and useful thread. Thank you, OP.13 -
leonhnchan wrote: »In my opinion, forget willpower. You can't reply on it. You can't even rely on motivation. Rely on DISCIPLINE which means you do something even if you don't feel it. DISCIPLINE is what will move you forward in the long run. Don't feel like getting up to run when you said to yourself the night before you will? Do it anyway. That will work towards developing the discipline to do it anyway. The problem is if you skip it, it will be much easier to just skip it the next time you're supposed to do it.
Honestly this distinction is entirely semantic. Willpower is often defined in exactly the same way you defined discipline. Call it whatever you want. The main point is you shouldn't pretend you have an infinite amount of it and you should be conscience of how you "spend" what amounts to a limited resource.6 -
It's very easy to say a person has a choice to stop spending their energy on other things, but life is not always so cut & dried. If it were primarily a time issue, maybe, but it's my understanding we're talking about the mental effort required here.
I think when people say they don't have the time to do something often they mean they don't have the will/energy to do that thing coupled with the fact that they have prioritized other things in their life. I agree that often we feel the need to prioritize things other than weight loss due to life's circumstances but ultimately it is a choice. It is a choice to have a family, it is a choice to have a career that takes a lot of ones time. Now those might be very important to you, more important than weight loss, but that just means those are higher priorities to you than weight loss...not that you don't have a choice. And that is fine, there are things in life that are in fact more important than weight loss in any given moment. My suggestion is just that people take honest stock of this and decide if they really want to lose weight that at somepoint they will have to prioritize that over something else and they are unlikely to be able to just slap that on top of everything else they are doing in a rather full life most adults lead.
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nickssweetheart wrote: »When I hear "discipline" I think that it implies a negative connotation about people who are struggling, as though it's something they are lacking that represents a flaw in them. It feels judgmental to me in a way that willpower doesn't.
I would rather use "habitual" for the definition of "does something without even thinking about it." And I think the optimal use of willpower is using it long enough for something to become habitual. Then you will have that willpower available in other areas. I very much agree with OP, though. Sometimes what someone really needs isn't more discipline or more willpower, what they need is help/reassessment of priorities, etc.
This has been an interesting and useful thread. Thank you, OP.
This was basically my point. Its all well and good to say people just need "more" willpower or "more" discipline but saying that to someone isn't going to help them conjure up "more" of that out of thin air. I think its much more useful to tell people that it is important to realize it is a limited resource, they only have so much of it and it is important to take stock of ones priorities and think hard about what one needs to do to make room for new goals in ones life (which can include something like weightloss). This post is a counterpoint to the "just believe in yourself" or "just try harder" type of posts. I don't think that sort of advice is actually useful.3 -
nickssweetheart wrote: »When I hear "discipline" I think that it implies a negative connotation about people who are struggling, as though it's something they are lacking that represents a flaw in them. It feels judgmental to me in a way that willpower doesn't.
I would rather use "habitual" for the definition of "does something without even thinking about it." And I think the optimal use of willpower is using it long enough for something to become habitual. Then you will have that willpower available in other areas. I very much agree with OP, though. Sometimes what someone really needs isn't more discipline or more willpower, what they need is help/reassessment of priorities, etc.
This has been an interesting and useful thread. Thank you, OP.
I don't know... to say that someone lacks willpower strikes me as judgmental as well
I love your statement "the optimal use of willpower is using it long enough for something to become habitual" (which I believe is just a more concise statement of what was said by the OP). It's a short-term tool, not a long-term solution.1 -
paperpudding wrote: »I really need a tl:dr version. I have no motivation to read all these words.
TL,DR - don't make it harder than you have to. Works better if you make it easier for yourself ..
Would you agree Aaron that this is your post in a nutshell?
I have said similar on here about logging - don't aim to do it perfectly, aim to do it as as lazily and easily as gets results for you.
Yeah. Don't make it harder than you have to, works better if you make it easier on yourself. Coupled with make sure you assess your priorities and realize that if you choose to prioritize weight loss in your life it likely means you have to deprioritize something else.1 -
nickssweetheart wrote: »When I hear "discipline" I think that it implies a negative connotation about people who are struggling, as though it's something they are lacking that represents a flaw in them. It feels judgmental to me in a way that willpower doesn't.
I would rather use "habitual" for the definition of "does something without even thinking about it." And I think the optimal use of willpower is using it long enough for something to become habitual. Then you will have that willpower available in other areas. I very much agree with OP, though. Sometimes what someone really needs isn't more discipline or more willpower, what they need is help/reassessment of priorities, etc.
This has been an interesting and useful thread. Thank you, OP.
I don't know... to say that someone lacks willpower strikes me as judgmental as well
I love your statement "the optimal use of willpower is using it long enough for something to become habitual" (which I believe is just a more concise statement of what was said by the OP). It's a short-term tool, not a long-term solution.
Yeah I think there is a certain willpower cost associated with doing something that does not feel routine. The more you do it though the more it will feel routine and therefore the less "cost" it will have. I don't think cost goes to zero though just gets smaller and by how much is hard to say.1 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »CarvedTones wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »sunfastrose wrote: »I love the OP. Too many times people fall into the trap of perfectionism - and a lot of the messaging in society encourages that idea. It's a false dichotomy of all McDonald's or all homegrown veggies, and there are so many people on this board that struggle with it because it feels like not doing everything "right" means that you are wrong and a failure. Making changes takes energy and figuring out what changes minimize energy utilized to maximize impact is really the way to go.
Thanks and yes I agree, there is an "all or nothing" attitude that seems pervasive. I think it comes from the culture embracing this "you can do whatever you set your mind to!" idea of "as long as you have a positive outlook you can do anything" that honestly is unrealistic. No, you can't do anything you set your mind to...you can only do so much, so think hard about what you want out of life and act accordingly.
With weight loss, as long as the goal isn't unreasonable I think it can be that binary. Either you're all in or you're not. You can make a single firm commitment or you can nurture your willpower everyday and accept that some days there just isn't enough to go around. It can easily turn in to a way to give yourself permission to stray from the path without accepting responsibility for it. This doesn't mean that you have to be rigid about never exceeding you calorie goal. You can give yourself permission to make an exception. But treating willpower like there is a finite amount seems like giving yourself permission to fail.
But....there is a finite amount. Since when is acknowledging reality the same as permission to fail? I don't think realism is the same as pessimism. I did not come to terms with not being able to do everything I'd ever want to do in life because I was depressed and was looking for a reason to quit, I did it because coming to terms with reality was a means of becoming actually effective in my planning. I do not find that depressing I find that empowering.
We will have to agree to disagree on that point. To me, willpower is the backbone to stand by your convictions or decisions. "I would have stayed faithful but she offered herself to me 11 times and I ran out of willpower after 10." - see how far that gets you. Maybe what we think of as willpower are different things.0 -
CarvedTones wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »CarvedTones wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »sunfastrose wrote: »I love the OP. Too many times people fall into the trap of perfectionism - and a lot of the messaging in society encourages that idea. It's a false dichotomy of all McDonald's or all homegrown veggies, and there are so many people on this board that struggle with it because it feels like not doing everything "right" means that you are wrong and a failure. Making changes takes energy and figuring out what changes minimize energy utilized to maximize impact is really the way to go.
Thanks and yes I agree, there is an "all or nothing" attitude that seems pervasive. I think it comes from the culture embracing this "you can do whatever you set your mind to!" idea of "as long as you have a positive outlook you can do anything" that honestly is unrealistic. No, you can't do anything you set your mind to...you can only do so much, so think hard about what you want out of life and act accordingly.
With weight loss, as long as the goal isn't unreasonable I think it can be that binary. Either you're all in or you're not. You can make a single firm commitment or you can nurture your willpower everyday and accept that some days there just isn't enough to go around. It can easily turn in to a way to give yourself permission to stray from the path without accepting responsibility for it. This doesn't mean that you have to be rigid about never exceeding you calorie goal. You can give yourself permission to make an exception. But treating willpower like there is a finite amount seems like giving yourself permission to fail.
But....there is a finite amount. Since when is acknowledging reality the same as permission to fail? I don't think realism is the same as pessimism. I did not come to terms with not being able to do everything I'd ever want to do in life because I was depressed and was looking for a reason to quit, I did it because coming to terms with reality was a means of becoming actually effective in my planning. I do not find that depressing I find that empowering.
We will have to agree to disagree on that point. To me, willpower is the backbone to stand by your convictions or decisions. "I would have stayed faithful but she offered herself to me 11 times and I ran out of willpower after 10." - see how far that gets you. Maybe what we think of as willpower are different things.
The way I am using willpower I am saying it is the energy required to carry out an action. Your example is a decision to not act and although the decision itself might take a bit of willpower the act of not acting doesn't. I fully admit whenever one chooses to use a word other people will assume things about your meaning that you dont mean because of how they use that word. I'd just encourage you to not rely on your definition but rather see how I defined it. If you want to call it someting other than willpower sure.
For your analogy to fit my definition that I was using it would be more like you decided to not be faithful and promised to have sex 11 times in a row but ran out of energy after 10 times and gave up because you over-committed to something you did not have enough in the tank to perform.
The act of counting calories, the act of getting yourself to drink a glass of water when you normally wouldn't, the act of meal planning, the act of exercising all require energy I am referring to as willpower. That resource is limited, you cannot do everything at somepoint you will run out of energy to do actions. Call it "energy" then. Honestly I think most people just call it "time". Oh I don't have "time" to do that.
What you are defining I'd probably called discipline. You use some will to make the decision but then you rely on discipline to stick to your conviction since the conviction itself doesn't require any actual action. Would being repeatedly tempted require more and more will? I don't know maybe, I guess I could see that. I agree with you though it seems unlikely you would cave just by being asked over and over again so I think at somepoint discipline takes over and it becomes automatic.1 -
I do think of willpower and discipline as synonyms; not exact ones but pretty close. But I think sticking to the diet is a matter of discipline also.0
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CarvedTones wrote: »I do think of willpower and discipline as synonyms; not exact ones but pretty close. But I think sticking to the diet is a matter of discipline also.
Yeah I mean you raised some good points. In my own example I talked about not wasting energy on avoiding drinking diet soda which would be me claiming you spend willpower avoiding something. Your point regarding a scenario of infidelity about whether that means if someone repeatedly tempts you it will eventually wear you down is well made and I guess my answer is I'm not entirely sure. I mean to some degree I think it would wear you down, not if the person asked you 11 times in a row on the same day that would just be annoying but if it was repeated temptations over time I could see that how likely one was to succumb to temptation might very well be related to how overwhelmed one is with other activities. That doesn't make it an excuse, just an explanation. Yeah I guess I do think you can be worn down to the point of being more susceptible to failures in character.
Overall though I think this is sort of a deep dive on focusing on word meanings when really all I am saying is "Hey, if you have had trouble in the past losing weight maybe take stock of what you are spending your time on and make sure you have provided enough to be able to make the life changes necessary for weight loss....don't try to do everything you could possible do all at once, just pick a few simple things and focus on consistency."2 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »CarvedTones wrote: »I do think of willpower and discipline as synonyms; not exact ones but pretty close. But I think sticking to the diet is a matter of discipline also.
Overall though I think this is sort of a deep dive on focusing on word meanings when really all I am saying is "Hey, if you have had trouble in the past losing weight maybe take stock of what you are spending your time on and make sure you have provided enough to be able to make the life changes necessary for weight loss....don't try to do everything you could possible do all at once, just pick a few simple things and focus on consistency."
I already brought this out, but I do think it's inaccurate to equate time management & willpower. For many, prioritizing their time may well be the only issue, but as your original post detailed, the bigger cost generally comes from our attitude about a particular obligation, and that's very difficult to quantify. But again, I'm not disagreeing, I just think the two things are different, albeit related, issues.1 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »CarvedTones wrote: »I do think of willpower and discipline as synonyms; not exact ones but pretty close. But I think sticking to the diet is a matter of discipline also.
Overall though I think this is sort of a deep dive on focusing on word meanings when really all I am saying is "Hey, if you have had trouble in the past losing weight maybe take stock of what you are spending your time on and make sure you have provided enough to be able to make the life changes necessary for weight loss....don't try to do everything you could possible do all at once, just pick a few simple things and focus on consistency."
I already brought this out, but I do think it's inaccurate to equate time management & willpower. For many, prioritizing their time may well be the only issue, but as your original post detailed, the bigger cost generally comes from our attitude about a particular obligation, and that's very difficult to quantify. But again, I'm not disagreeing, I just think the two things are different, albeit related, issues.
Yeah fair enough I guess I slipped into saying "time" myself. I think people use the word "time" when they really mean something more like willpower or energy. Honestly I don't think anyone spends literally every second of everyday doing nothing but productive activities so really there always is more "time" you could be doing something productive in. It is energy we run out of, not time....there is only so much we can do productively in a given day and I think the limit is the willpower and ability to focus not the clock.4 -
CarvedTones wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »sunfastrose wrote: »I love the OP. Too many times people fall into the trap of perfectionism - and a lot of the messaging in society encourages that idea. It's a false dichotomy of all McDonald's or all homegrown veggies, and there are so many people on this board that struggle with it because it feels like not doing everything "right" means that you are wrong and a failure. Making changes takes energy and figuring out what changes minimize energy utilized to maximize impact is really the way to go.
Thanks and yes I agree, there is an "all or nothing" attitude that seems pervasive. I think it comes from the culture embracing this "you can do whatever you set your mind to!" idea of "as long as you have a positive outlook you can do anything" that honestly is unrealistic. No, you can't do anything you set your mind to...you can only do so much, so think hard about what you want out of life and act accordingly.
With weight loss, as long as the goal isn't unreasonable I think it can be that binary. Either you're all in or you're not. You can make a single firm commitment or you can nurture your willpower everyday and accept that some days there just isn't enough to go around. It can easily turn in to a way to give yourself permission to stray from the path without accepting responsibility for it. This doesn't mean that you have to be rigid about never exceeding you calorie goal. You can give yourself permission to make an exception. But treating willpower like there is a finite amount seems like giving yourself permission to fail.
You could take it as permission to fail. Or, you could look at it as insight, and then sweet yourself up to succeed, which involves knowing and mitigating your weaknesses.
I've lost about 70 pounds and kept it off a few years now. I'm not all or nothing about it.3
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