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Flu shots? For them or against ?
Replies
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Aaron_K123 wrote: »"A systematic review found that 3% of working adults who had received influenza vaccine and 5% of those who were unvaccinated had laboratory-proven influenza per season; in healthcare workers (HCWs) these percentages were 5% and 8% respectively.Healthcare workers may transmit influenza to patients."
The literal very first sentence of what you linked states that the percentage of HCW who got flu was higher in those that were unvaccinated compared to those who were vaccinated. Not a small decrease either, a decrease of 37%. When you get the flu you are contagious for at least 24 hours before you become symptomatic at which point you can transmit the flu via aerosol to people around you. It is unlikely a healthy younger person such as yourself would die from the flu however the chances are much greater for the elderly, especially those who require care.
As for the part that said no risk was found in the specific epidemiological data they investigated it then states this "The principal sources of bias in the studies related to attrition, lack of blinding, contamination in the control groups and low rates of vaccination coverage in the intervention arms, leading us to downgrade the quality of evidence for all outcomes due to serious risk of bias." Did you miss that part? This studies conclusion is that the results of their examination did not find support for the idea that the flu vaccine helps HCW not transmit flu but they also show (in the very first sentence) that overall it does. They just say that their particular study didn't show supportive evidence, they never claim it doesn't. Read it again and pay attention to what they are saying not to what you want to hear from it.
Well, that's twice now she's linked to sites that directly contradict her beliefs. Yep, it's Friday.
eta: Oh, yeah - have to switch it to December...5 -
Eh, there’s no point in trying to rationalize with irrational people. It neithers credits, not discredits. Maybe you should go focus on dieting and exercising than wasting your time harassing me on a forum. I’m conscious of my decision. That’s my choice (again for the third time). My coworkers didn’t get the vaccine. I stated my opinion. Trust me, the day you end of in a hospital or SNF there’s going to be a lot more to be worried about that a flu vaccine. No need to “bash” my opinion. You’re a perfect example of what’s wrong with society today.12
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It neithers credits, not discredits.
Then why did you provide it as evidence that the idea that healthcare workers caring for the elderly should get flu vaccinated was discredited?
""A systematic review found that 3% of working adults who had received influenza vaccine and 5% of those who were unvaccinated had laboratory-proven influenza per season; in healthcare workers (HCWs) these percentages were 5% and 8% respectively.Healthcare workers may transmit influenza to patients.""
What does that mean Kyla? From your own link. Does that not mean that being vaccinated reduces your risk of flu by 37% in the case of HCW who can indeed spread flu to their patients? Is that not credit towards the notion that the patients of healthcare workers would benefit from healthcare workers being vaccinated? How am I misinterpreting that?
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Eh, there’s no point in trying to rationalize with irrational people. It neithers credits, not discredits. Maybe you should go focus on dieting and exercising than wasting your time harassing me on a forum. I’m conscious of my decision. That’s my choice (again for the third time). My coworkers didn’t get the vaccine. I stated my opinion. Trust me, the day you end of in a hospital or SNF there’s going to be a lot more to be worried about that a flu vaccine. No need to “bash” my opinion. You’re a perfect example of what’s wrong with society today.
You act like its a major deal to get vaccinated. It takes 5 minutes and your employer would pay for it. It costs you nothing, it takes none of your time, it causes you no harm (other than a little soreness in your arm for like 24 hours). No one is asking you to cut your arm off.8 -
People believing healthcare workers should be vaccinated = irrational. Okay.12
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The initial post asked whether people get the flu shot or not. If you do, cool. I don’t. It’s not effective in preventing influenza (especially not this year). There are plenty of people who I work with who don’t get the shot. If you want to do whatever the gov’t tells you to do, be my guest. I watch what goes in my body and that’s my choice. No need to be rude guys. Get over your drama. Haha.
First, this is in the debate forum. If you don't want people to debate your response, you probably shouldn't post in here.
Second, I'll repeat my question. Do you understand the concept of "herd immunity"?9 -
I'm very much on the fence about vaccines and meds in general. I don't even take aspirin.
I used to go to the doctor when I got sick, I would get meds and be on my way. During that time I would usually get sick several times throughout the year. Since I stopped doing that I started getting sick less and less. After about a year or two of that, it got to the point of where I am now. I get sick maybe once every 1 to 3 years.
I only got really sick once since then and it was h1n1 (I assume). It hit me hard, I was sick for what seemed like 3 weeks or a month. I'd been in a vehicle with someone who was just getting over it prior to getting it myself.
I know some ppl swear by vaccines and some ppl wouldn't take one if they could use someone else's arm to get it. My immune system seems to do quite well on its own. The only things I take on the rare occasions I get sick are goldenseal, echinacea, vitamin c, & zinc. I take them 3 times a day from the second I notice anything and more often than not it seems to be history by the next day. I know that won't be the case with everything, but considering I got sick regularly taking meds and now I never get sick, that includes being around ppl with colds and flues, I would rather just go natural.3 -
Canadian politics is a little....different. We had the Rhino party run a few years ago, which suggested switching our car lanes to the British Standard (left lane instead of right). To minimise disruption, they proposed a phased approach where heavy trucks would switch to the new standard first.
I've been to Canada (Laval, specifically) twice. I don't remember seeing separate lanes for trucks.
So... Wouldn't this mean that the heavy trucks would be heading straight for passenger vehicles? Or am I missing something?
You missed the Canadian sense of humour. A phased approach to British roadways would result in head-on collisions. The Rhino party did not get any seats and are now defunct. They sure were fun, though.
Canadian car chase:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0id9fUYb95A 3 -
I’m sure they do, for children, elderly, or people with compromised immune systems. I don’t apply to those categories. Very diplomatic response though, I can appreciate that.
They do save the lives of the elderly - when other people take them, so as to avoid exposing the elderly to the flu. People with weak immune systems are more likely to have vaccine failure than others. The vaccine doesn't protect them well directly. It only protects them when people like you take it.
Thousands of elderly people every year die because of healthy people who refuse flu shots.6 -
suzannesimmons3 wrote: »My employer allows us to choose and that’s that. Again, you can quit “preaching” your opinion to me. The main post wanted opinions, I gave mine, and then people want to attack. People need to be less sensitive, my life has nothing to do with you, your opinion does not matter to me, but to the original poster. Please move on if you’re going to be negative.
Let us know who you work for so we can warn others.
I'd like to know also. She claims her choice has nothing to do with us - but she works with the elderly. Most of us have elderly relatives that we love very much. I'd like to know if there is any remote possibility that they might ever be treated by her so I can warn them.
I also wonder if it's really true that her current employer really doesn't care if she is refusing to be vaccinated - or if they simply don't follow up or require proof. It's hard to imagine any healthcare provider, especially one that treats the elderly would not require up to date immunizations.2 -
The initial post asked whether people get the flu shot or not. If you do, cool. I don’t. It’s not effective in preventing influenza (especially not this year). There are plenty of people who I work with who don’t get the shot. If you want to do whatever the gov’t tells you to do, be my guest. I watch what goes in my body and that’s my choice. No need to be rude guys. Get over your drama. Haha.
Here's the other thing. You are right that as a young, healthy person you probably will not get sick with the flu. But the fact of the matter is, there is a slim chance that you could. Not likely, but not completely zero. and in the first days where you have a cough and you don't feel so great, but you don't realize it's the start of the flu, you would spread it to the elderly folks around you, and it can kill them.
If you were just gambling with the very small risk that you might get the flu, I would agree with you. But the small risk you accept for yourself snowballs into an enormous risk for the people you work with. Not to mention the person standing next to you in line at the grocery store who can't get the shot for medical reasons, or the child sitting next to you on the train whose mother decided not to have him vaccinated.
I guess if you don't care about that, there really is nothing else to say.4 -
My employer allows us to choose and that’s that. Again, you can quit “preaching” your opinion to me. The main post wanted opinions, I gave mine, and then people want to attack. People need to be less sensitive, my life has nothing to do with you, your opinion does not matter to me, but to the original poster. Please move on if you’re going to be negative.
Vulnerable people dying and suffering from the flu needlessly impacts all of us.3 -
The initial post asked whether people get the flu shot or not. If you do, cool. I don’t. It’s not effective in preventing influenza (especially not this year). There are plenty of people who I work with who don’t get the shot. If you want to do whatever the gov’t tells you to do, be my guest. I watch what goes in my body and that’s my choice. No need to be rude guys. Get over your drama. Haha.
Here's the other thing. You are right that as a young, healthy person you probably will not get sick with the flu. But the fact of the matter is, there is a slim chance that you could. Not likely, but not completely zero. and in the first days where you have a cough and you don't feel so great, but you don't realize it's the start of the flu, you would spread it to the elderly folks around you, and it can kill them.
If you were just gambling with the very small risk that you might get the flu, I would agree with you. But the small risk you accept for yourself snowballs into an enormous risk for the people you work with. Not to mention the person standing next to you in line at the grocery store who can't get the shot for medical reasons, or the child sitting next to you on the train whose mother decided not to have him vaccinated.
I guess if you don't care about that, there really is nothing else to say.
It is like smoking, there are clear documented health drawbacks to it but its still legal (I think it should be legal by the way) and individuals can still choose to smoke (and I support their right to do so although I disagree that they should). If you smoke outside and there is someone near you they can walk away from you. But there is a line you can't cross. If you enter a restaurant and smoke you are then exposing the waitstaff to that smoke. They cannot leave the room, they have to be there and so they have no choice but to get exposed. If lots of people smoke then waitstaff are in a sea of smoke for 8 hours a day 5 days a week or more. Same is true of any enclosed space with workers which is why there are now laws about smoking in enclosed spaces with employees. The issue is not with the individual choosing to smoke, the issue is with the person choosing to smoke not taking into consideration the people around them and their own wishes. The issue is with their rights and safety being violated, that their personal choice is being taken away by a person who is being inconsiderate. If someone in the restaurant confronted the smoker and asked them to consider others and the smokers response was to start talking about how it was their individual choice and their opinion and their right and them them them they would be completely missing the point by focusing solely on themselves.
The same is absolutely true of a health care facility. In that facility you have patients that have no choice but to be their and are in an infirm state where they are most likely in some stage of immunosuppression where vaccination is unlikely to provide protection to them. They have no choice in the matter, they rely completely on the protection provided by the safety policies and practices of those around them. They are in a situation where they have to trust those around them.
I support a persons right to smoke, but I don't think smoking should be allowed in a restaurant. I support a persons right to not vaccinate, but if you work in a healthcare facility you absolutely should get vaccinated. In both situations it isn't just your personal choice that needs to be taken into account, one needs to also consider the rights of those around you who cannot protect themselves.
You have the right to flail your fists around, but that right ends where someone elses face begins. If someone points out it might not be smart to flail your fists around in a crowded room that people cannot avoid you in they aren't trying to suppress your personal freedoms they are simply more concerned about the safety of the people around you than of your right to flail around. If that person becomes annoyed then their annoyance is likely do to the wanton display of a general lack of consideration for others sacrificed on the alter of "personal freedom". Is that being a "safety nazi" or is that being an adult? I expect to have to teach this to my children but I get flustered when adults display this kind of behavior because honestly they should know better.4 -
To be clear I believe in an individuals right to choose and I do not think it would be appropriate for the government of a nation to require vaccinations for all of its citizens as that would be an abridgment of personal freedom. I do however think that situationally there can be societal punishments for not taking actions that are supportive of that society. I think that insurance companies could raise insurance rates on the basis of vaccination status. I think employers could require vaccinations for their employees if those employees work with people who are infirm.
Its like freedom of speech. I don't think the government should intervene on a persons right to speak freely but if you "speak freely" in your workplace in a way that is offensive or creates a hostile work environment your employer has every right to fire you. That isn't somehow an abridgment of freedom of speech and them firing you isn't actually about you its about those around you that are being protected by your removal. Being fired for not being vaccinated isn't an abridgment of your freedoms either. Rights to personal choice don't mean you are immune to societal consequences from those choices.6 -
Sometimes flu vaccines are not for the current strain that is out there. Checking to be sure it was would be important to me before getting a flu shot.4
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I'm one of the people for whom flu shots don't work well, due to lupus medication. And diabetes puts me into a high risk category as far as dying if I did get it. So someone refusing to get the flu shot, while still existing in any space near enough to breathe my air, is literally deciding they are fine with me dying. I'd say that does impact me directly.8
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Sometimes flu vaccines are not for the current strain that is out there. Checking to be sure it was would be important to me before getting a flu shot.
Flu viruses are wild animals and sometimes we guess wrong which way they plan to stampede. You can't wait until the flu is out there to decide or not, because it will be too late.
So the WHO [oops, CDC - jg] makes an educated guess at the most LIKELY and most DANGEROUS viruses to hit.
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/season/vaccine-selection.htm
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Sometimes flu vaccines are not for the current strain that is out there. Checking to be sure it was would be important to me before getting a flu shot.
This is sort of reasonable, but I think their is a flaw in the logic here.
It is true that flu vaccines are effective against very specific strains of flu based directly on the type of H and N antigens that strain presents. It is also true that it takes time to mass produce the vaccine so what vaccine is made is based on a forecast, a prediction, of what strain is most likely to hit that region based on the data collected. The vaccine takes time to make and it needs to be made far enough in advance to distribute appropriately to sites and then have it deployed to the population. If the forecast is wrong then the vaccine distributed might be ineffective in which case it would be rational to not take it.
Here is the issue though. The vaccine doesn't give you protection immediately, you aren't protected until several weeks after you receive the vaccine. So if you wait until the strain hits the region and we know what strain it is and then you get vaccinated you aren't actually protecting yourself. If you instead go off the forecast then that is the same forecast that is being used to choose what vaccine to produce so the vaccine being produced will match the forecast.
It would be like waiting for it to rain and then ordering an umbrella on amazon using the slowest shipping method. It isn't going to help you. If you instead order it weeks in advance based on a weather forecast then that would be analogous to using the same forecast that those producing the vaccine are using so in that case you would always choose to get vaccinated.
Either way it ends up that you should probably just get vaccinated. I agree though there is a chance the forecast is wrong and the vaccine you receive is ineffective. But if that is the case then what did you lose exactly other than like 5-30 minutes of time.1 -
As long as you don't have allergies or are one of the few immune suppressed people who can't safely take them, I see no downside to trading an arm prick for lowered likelihood of various illnesses.2
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Having an autoimmune disease, my body can't handle the chemicals used to make the vaccine. So I don't get one and I try my best to stay clear of people that are sick. I take all precautions to stay as well as I can.2
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GlassslippersAndFairyDust wrote: »Having an autoimmune disease, my body can't handle the chemicals used to make the vaccine. So I don't get one and I try my best to stay clear of people that are sick. I take all precautions to stay as well as I can.
I fully support your position on not getting the jab, the problem is (and what this entire thread has been trying to point out) is that a person can be a carrier of the flu and not be affected by the flu - it is even possible to have the flu and never be symptomatic beyond a mild case of the sniffles or some such. With this being the case, there really is no way to protect yourself (besides living in a completely sterile environment with no contact to the the outside world) - avoiding people who are obviously symptomatic helps, but in no way insures that you will be protected.
You are one of the ones that the pro-jab crowd is trying to protect and why the pro-jab folks keep arguing about herd immunity - as long as we are protected, folks like you will be protected as well.2 -
I am retired so I have very little contact with the outside world and when I do, I take precautions that protect me as well as others. I have no choice, I can't get the flu shot or my body will have a very nasty flareup due to the chemicals. I haven't had a flu shot in more than 20 yrs, so far so good, so it's working for me.1
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maura_tasi wrote: »I'm having a really hard time imagining any place of healthcare, especially ones involving a majority of elderly, little ones, and immunocompromised, wouldn't require their employees who have direct contact with the patients to get their flu shot. I'm equally as shocked that someone who is well trained in the healthcare field would even risk not getting one knowing that they are exposed to those who are more vulnerable everyday. Come the end of September the first thing I do is get my flu shot and the same goes for everyone I know who works in healthcare along side me. It's part of my job to protect those who cannot protect themselves. I understand the anger Aaron and others are displaying. Quite frankly, the decision to not get the flu shot as an active healthcare worker (I think everyone who can should get them but that's another argument) is extremely irresponsible.
One reason for the pushback from healthcare insiders?
philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2017/11/30/flu-shots-flu-season-2017/7 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »maura_tasi wrote: »I'm having a really hard time imagining any place of healthcare, especially ones involving a majority of elderly, little ones, and immunocompromised, wouldn't require their employees who have direct contact with the patients to get their flu shot. I'm equally as shocked that someone who is well trained in the healthcare field would even risk not getting one knowing that they are exposed to those who are more vulnerable everyday. Come the end of September the first thing I do is get my flu shot and the same goes for everyone I know who works in healthcare along side me. It's part of my job to protect those who cannot protect themselves. I understand the anger Aaron and others are displaying. Quite frankly, the decision to not get the flu shot as an active healthcare worker (I think everyone who can should get them but that's another argument) is extremely irresponsible.
One reason for the pushback from healthcare insiders?
philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2017/11/30/flu-shots-flu-season-2017/
I especially like the last paragraph:While the outlook for the U.S. flu season is grim, Dr. Fauci maintained that Americans should still take the time to get a vaccination. “Vaccines remain a valuable public health tool, and it is always better to get vaccinated than not to get vaccinated.” According to the CDC, 40,000 lives were saved by flu vaccines from 2005 to 2014.
Also, while 10% effectiveness is not the best, it is certainly better than zero.8 -
This discussion is now closed.
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This discussion has been closed.
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