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Flu shots? For them or against ?
Replies
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Rosemary7391 wrote: »I wonder, as this thread is still rambling on on this particular website... what would the effect on public health be if all the effort expended on increasing flu vaccine uptake was put into preventing obesity?
Totally unrelated. Would lowered obesity rates prevent flu deaths?
I’m anti death in all the ways it stalks us.
There's only ever a limited budget for these sort of things. Would we prevent more deaths (all causes) by focussing on flu or obesity? Or a combination thereof? Just a thought. Someone upthread said something like if it prevents just 1 death then it's worth it. But if you could prevent more deaths by doing something else with the time/money/effort? Death from flu is not the only measure I care about...1 -
The cost benefit for vaccine programs are undisputed.0
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There’s the clogging up of emergency rooms, lengthy hospitalizations, and lost work. I can think up three examples right away.
- The UK had a season where less of the population got the jab than the rest of the EU. Let’s just say it was an expensive year.
- There’s a Toronto study where the cost benefit was worked out.
- And here in my home province a study was done after the fact for two nursing homes where one was mostly immunized and the other not. A major impact was on the staffing of the non immunized home. At times the staffing was so short that nurses had to come in if they could at least stand up. My doctor-sister witnessed patients helping their nurse walk the hallway.2 -
When you opt to be part of an organized society, a civilization, I feel you have a certain responsibility to help support that society and do what you can to add to it rather than draw from it as a net. As such I see certain things as being civic responsibilities for any adult. One of those is getting vaccinated. Preventative care is one of the best investments you can make into any society that ends up on some level having to deal with the ill be it in the form of loss of revenue/productivity or medical expenses. I don't particularly enjoy shots, I don't really like taking time out of my day to go get a shot, I don't necessarily think chances are high I will get the flu and I recognize that a flu shot is not 100% protection....I just view it as a civic duty to be part of the solution to pandemic rather than part of the problem. Similarly I feel avoiding morbid obesity or any other unnecessary self-inflicted condition that has a negative effect on ones health outcomes is part of that civic responsibility. If you are morbidly obese or you avoid vaccinations there is a certain selfishness or lack of consideration to that and I don't feel ignorance is much of an excuse there.
Society is built to provide a safety net for those who are in dire circumstances beyond their control. If you are an adult you should be holding that net, not laying in it expecting others to pick up the slack for you.14 -
LOL autocorrect glue vaccine. I wonder what Siri must think of human viruses?LOL autocorrect glue vaccine. I wonder what Siri must think of human viruses?
hahaha, didnt notice I wrote glue vaccine
I am world's worst typist - I remember I once wrote on this forum that we are all getting less excercise because we have cats.
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paperpudding wrote: »LOL autocorrect glue vaccine. I wonder what Siri must think of human viruses?LOL autocorrect glue vaccine. I wonder what Siri must think of human viruses?
hahaha, didnt notice I wrote glue vaccine
I am world's worst typist - I remember I once wrote on this forum that we are all getting less excercise because we have cats.
That's a fair statement. I've almost suffered a burst bladder from not wanting to disturb a happy lap kitty.10 -
FOR!3
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GaleHawkins wrote: »TeacupsAndToning wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »https://medsask.usask.ca/documents/newsletters/33.4%20annual_flu_immunization.pdf
".....Dr. Skowronski’s group reported that study participants who received the 2014–2015
vaccine without vaccination the year before had significant protection against influenza A(H3N2) but those who
had received the identical 2013-2014 vaccine the previous year had no increased protection and those who were
vaccinated three years in a row actually had an increased risk of contracting influenza compared with unvaccinated
participants......
This is not the first study to find an association between previous vaccination and reduced vaccine effectiveness......"
Gale,
Literally about two sentences down from where you left off the opening paragraph says this "... According to expert reviewers from the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's (CDC's) Influenza Vaccine Effectiveness Network and the Group Health Research Institute in Seattle, the research in this study was well done (3); however the study was observational in nature, therefore the role of chance, bias and confounding in the results cannot be ruled out (2)."
It's improper to only state the "facts" that support your opinion.
...I take ... the ... shots ... at both sides...
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/comment/40800422/#Comment_40800422
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jordanchamzuk wrote: »Wanna see what other people think about this topic.
I for one am very neutral on it. Working in Healthcare I see if fit. However I also see negative effects of it.
What's your thoughts?
I'm for, but not for me. I don't get sick, really at all, so I don't unless forced (Vet/USN medical)...BUT if you are predisposed to ailments, allergies or otherwise immune suppressed: YES (& I have lived all over the world/ multiple climates; native Great Laker) I understand the push for all, but we still don't understand the viruses quite that well. I leave my nasal shot for the person who needs it more. It's the only time I "get sick", so take it!6 -
Rosemary7391 wrote: »I wonder, as this thread is still rambling on on this particular website... what would the effect on public health be if all the effort expended on increasing flu vaccine uptake was put into preventing obesity?
What would it mean to focus that effort (which I think means money) on preventing obesity?
People become obese when they eat too many calories for a prolonged period. Everybody knows eating less and moving more is there way to prevent obesity. But most people don't want to do that. There isn't a shot to prevent obesity like there is with the flu. Are we going to put signs up saying "don't get fat?" Obesity has been going on for a while and we've been trying to stem it but not a lot of luck so far, what is it about not having flu shots that would suddenly make obesity prevention a success?0 -
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jordanchamzuk wrote: »Wanna see what other people think about this topic.
I for one am very neutral on it. Working in Healthcare I see if fit. However I also see negative effects of it.
What's your thoughts?
I'm for, but not for me. I don't get sick, really at all, so I don't unless forced (Vet/USN medical)...BUT if you are predisposed to ailments, allergies or otherwise immune suppressed: YES (& I have lived all over the world/ multiple climates; native Great Laker) I understand the push for all, but we still don't understand the viruses quite that well. I leave my nasal shot for the person who needs it more. It's the only time I "get sick", so take it!
If you've read through this thread you'll have seen several of us pointing out that the vaccine is *less effective * for people who are immunosuporessed (of which I am one) What helps to protect us is healthy people minimising/reducing the risk of infection, by (amongst other things ) getting vaccinated2 -
NorthCascades wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »I wonder, as this thread is still rambling on on this particular website... what would the effect on public health be if all the effort expended on increasing flu vaccine uptake was put into preventing obesity?
What would it mean to focus that effort (which I think means money) on preventing obesity?
People become obese when they eat too many calories for a prolonged period. Everybody knows eating less and moving more is there way to prevent obesity. But most people don't want to do that. There isn't a shot to prevent obesity like there is with the flu. Are we going to put signs up saying "don't get fat?" Obesity has been going on for a while and we've been trying to stem it but not a lot of luck so far, what is it about not having flu shots that would suddenly make obesity prevention a success?
I kinda meant the advertising bit. Obviously stopping flu shots for everyone would be a bad idea and that isn't what I meant. But if, say, 90%* of people are gonna get them anyway then the advertising money can probably be used more usefully to advertise or fund weight loss support for instance, instead of chasing a 95%* flu shot rate.
*These numbers are probably wrong; but there will be a pair of numbers for which this is true!
I don't know the specifics about how to prevent obesity in the general population... but that's another interesting question to ponder and probably a precursor to answering my first one, since we'd have to know how effective the alternative might be to make a proper comparison.0 -
The statistics are pretty conclusive about the costs of vaccine refusal.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3720046/0 -
Worked in NIH Clinical Center for years and exposed to patients, flu shot required. After retirement and having a c immune system weakness, absolutely get flu shots.0
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The statistics are pretty conclusive about the costs of vaccine refusal.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3720046/
That link doesn't have much to do with the flu. No one is trying to eradicate flu. If they were I'd be all for it since it's a one off cost that would prevail throughout and beyond our lifetime. Flu shots are a yearly thing, quite a different proposal. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, just a different one that needs to be evaluated differently to things like smallpox or polio.0 -
The link I provided talked about how resistance arises that results in lower compliance rates. Ironically vaccination compliance goes down as incidence of the disease goes down. People do not see the benefits as easily. The one eradication campaign that worked was for smallpox, because we managed to wipe it out before vaccine resistance had a chance to develop.
This applies very well to the whole problem of flu vaccine compliance. People may not have personal experience of family members who have died from the flu. As the danger recedes, so does the compliance.
I do happen to have a close family member who could die from a single exposure to the flu, and has been hospitalized several times to recover from the flu. You betcha I'm getting vaccinated before I visit my dad.
The article goes on to talk about where to spend the efforts to improve compliance, which is where you were questioning where to invest funding, @Rosemary7391 . Vaccination is kind of an obvious win, because compliance will get us the win.
How to overcome obesity through education and advertising, however, is less clear cut. Would converting an entire nation to be sugar-averse, for instance, result in lower obesity rates? I'm curious to see how Brazil's food guide will affect that nation's obesity rates (since it's approach is a radical departure, say, from the US, Australia, Canada, and the UK).
[Edited to correct, dad could die from a single exposure to the flu, not the flu vaccine. Duh]1 -
@jgnatca, I thought that article was talking more about attempts to eradicate diseases - which obviously does need a very high level of compliance, but also brings great benefits. It's not so obvious to me that flu is in the same category. You'd need the high level of compliance every year, at the right time of year, and you'll still have folks catching the flu anyway because the thing mutates so fast they can't vaccinate against every strain. Those sorts of things all work against compliance with the flu vaccine specifically; it's even more of an uphill struggle than the standard childhood vaccines. I'm just not sure it's worth really fighting that uphill battle every single year; you come back to the same place again next year.
FWIW I totally agree you should get vaccinated before you see your dad. If I had contact with those sorts of vunerable people I'd go out of my way to get the flu shot too. Ditto if it was suggested I get it by my doctor (it's only suggested for vunerable groups in the UK). I'm just wondering what the cut off is for making it worthwhile to really push vaccinating the population as a whole as opposed to something else. Obesity was just a MFP relevant suggestion. You could even compare it to pushing vaccinating for something else, like the newish HPV vaccine. Or a "let's eradicate X in our country" campaign. 'Twould be an interesting policy experiment for one year - and if it really went badly, you can swiftly revert to the previous level of flu vaccine advertising the next year, or alternate between flu and something else.
PS You say experience of people dying from the flu - I only know one person who has even had it, and it wasn't the seasonal flu. If that's what you're fighting against you really are onto a losing battle with the average person. I guess the situation is different where you are and most people will know plenty who have had the flu, even if they didn't die/need hospitalization.
I like the look of Brazil's guidelines! I think if they're followed they'll bring more benefits than just lower rates of obesity; there will be social benefits to people taking a bit of time out and eating together too. Not a fan of the ban on cake though (but I love baking and decorating cakes, so there's my bias! And no, it isn't what made me fat.).0 -
Rosemary7391 wrote: »The statistics are pretty conclusive about the costs of vaccine refusal.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3720046/
That link doesn't have much to do with the flu. No one is trying to eradicate flu. If they were I'd be all for it since it's a one off cost that would prevail throughout and beyond our lifetime. Flu shots are a yearly thing, quite a different proposal. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, just a different one that needs to be evaluated differently to things like smallpox or polio.
Uh just because we haven't been successful at eradication does not mean it isn't being tried. Truly eradicating a disease is a monumental task that has only been achieved a very few number of times in all of human history.2 -
Well, the discussion is about vaccinations. My approach to weight loss (which is successful) is highly conservative and science based. My approach to vaccinations (all kinds) is the same.
It boggles my mind that a very natural approach to disease prevention - vaccination - isn't embraced by the all-natural crowd. After all, it's not like antibiotics which are discovered bacterial poisons. It's alerting our very own natural defences to genuine threats. Kind of like fire drills for our bodies.
I think the reasons for resistance, when and why it shows up, is very well described in the article. Resistance develops because of a skewed perception of risk, fear of lab coats, and big government. Just because the government decides something is good for us doesn't automatically make it suspect, does it?
Brazil's guidelines are interesting but untested. We'll know in a decade or so if their approach is superior.1 -
Rosemary7391 wrote: »@jgnatca, I thought that article was talking more about attempts to eradicate diseases - which obviously does need a very high level of compliance, but also brings great benefits. It's not so obvious to me that flu is in the same category. You'd need the high level of compliance every year, at the right time of year, and you'll still have folks catching the flu anyway because the thing mutates so fast they can't vaccinate against every strain. Those sorts of things all work against compliance with the flu vaccine specifically; it's even more of an uphill struggle than the standard childhood vaccines. I'm just not sure it's worth really fighting that uphill battle every single year; you come back to the same place again next year.
FWIW I totally agree you should get vaccinated before you see your dad. If I had contact with those sorts of vunerable people I'd go out of my way to get the flu shot too. Ditto if it was suggested I get it by my doctor (it's only suggested for vunerable groups in the UK). I'm just wondering what the cut off is for making it worthwhile to really push vaccinating the population as a whole as opposed to something else. Obesity was just a MFP relevant suggestion. You could even compare it to pushing vaccinating for something else, like the newish HPV vaccine. Or a "let's eradicate X in our country" campaign. 'Twould be an interesting policy experiment for one year - and if it really went badly, you can swiftly revert to the previous level of flu vaccine advertising the next year, or alternate between flu and something else.
PS You say experience of people dying from the flu - I only know one person who has even had it, and it wasn't the seasonal flu. If that's what you're fighting against you really are onto a losing battle with the average person. I guess the situation is different where you are and most people will know plenty who have had the flu, even if they didn't die/need hospitalization.
I like the look of Brazil's guidelines! I think if they're followed they'll bring more benefits than just lower rates of obesity; there will be social benefits to people taking a bit of time out and eating together too. Not a fan of the ban on cake though (but I love baking and decorating cakes, so there's my bias! And no, it isn't what made me fat.).
Once again I would like to reiterate that the situation is not different where you are. Where you are has the highest rate of death from flu of any country in Europe. The fact that you don't personally know any of those people has skewed your perspective, and you should not mistake your perspective for reality.2 -
jordanchamzuk wrote: »Wanna see what other people think about this topic.
I for one am very neutral on it. Working in Healthcare I see if fit. However I also see negative effects of it.
What's your thoughts?
I'm for, but not for me. I don't get sick, really at all, so I don't unless forced (Vet/USN medical)...BUT if you are predisposed to ailments, allergies or otherwise immune suppressed: YES (& I have lived all over the world/ multiple climates; native Great Laker) I understand the push for all, but we still don't understand the viruses quite that well. I leave my nasal shot for the person who needs it more. It's the only time I "get sick", so take it!
The reason perfectly healthy people get flu shots and other vaccinations is to keep up herd immunity. Herd immunity protects those who cannot get certain vaccinations for any reason and for those who are immunocompromised. It doesn't matter if you don't get sick often, by protecting yourself you are protecting those who are more susceptible to illness.1 -
maura_tasi wrote: »jordanchamzuk wrote: »Wanna see what other people think about this topic.
I for one am very neutral on it. Working in Healthcare I see if fit. However I also see negative effects of it.
What's your thoughts?
I'm for, but not for me. I don't get sick, really at all, so I don't unless forced (Vet/USN medical)...BUT if you are predisposed to ailments, allergies or otherwise immune suppressed: YES (& I have lived all over the world/ multiple climates; native Great Laker) I understand the push for all, but we still don't understand the viruses quite that well. I leave my nasal shot for the person who needs it more. It's the only time I "get sick", so take it!
The reason perfectly healthy people get flu shots and other vaccinations is to keep up herd immunity. Herd immunity protects those who cannot get certain vaccinations for any reason and for those who are immunocompromised. It doesn't matter if you don't get sick often, by protecting yourself you are protecting those who are more susceptible to illness.
I don't support the idea of not getting vaccinated because you think you won't get sick but speaking just in terms of pure logic if you 100% believe you will not get the flu whether or not you get vaccinated then you believe you will not be a vector for transmission and therefore someone pointing out herd immunity would not change your mind since in your mind you aren't going to get sick therefore you aren't going to act as a vector.3 -
I am for them but totally against them being tied to a job. If they are tied to a job they need to say it in the interview. People need jobs!3
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I've never had the shot, and most people I know wouldn't have had it either.
Seems to depend a bit on what country you live in apparently.3 -
Predators tend to focus on those herd members who are exceptional or noticebly different and not using the protection of the herd.
Just sayn4 -
I work in health care and have to have it or wear a mask for 7 months around patients. I've never gotten sick from it but only had it a couple of times so far because I take breaks from working in health care related work. I'm not completely sure about it but I've been told the dangers and I do think it could cause nerve issues. I had headaches last time I got it that were nerve related and my carpal tunnel worsened the first year I got a flu shot, but then again it could be coincidence.1
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The influenza (flu) epidemic of 1918 killed more people than WWI (1914-1918).
So yeah. I'm all for the flu shot.5 -
The influenza (flu) epidemic of 1918 killed more people than WWI (1914-1918).
So yeah. I'm all for the flu shot.
time.com/3731745/spanish-flu-history/
"..... And understanding the full story of Spanish flu could help develop vaccines to protect us from the next flu epidemic — an epidemic that is inevitable, as Hultin told TIME in 1998. In the meantime, there’s only one surefire method of surviving pandemic flu, according to Hultin: Isolate yourself in a mountain hideaway until the outbreak subsides. TIME explains: “It was a tactic… successfully used in 1918 by a village just 30 miles from Brevig. Its elders, after learning of the advancing plague, stationed armed guards at the village perimeter with orders to shoot anyone who tried to enter. The village survived unscathed.”....."
That is an interesting case you brought up. I did not know the professionals were calling for another flu epidemic.4
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