CICO the lastest fad diet
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Obese men, like me, especially over 50 have major hormonal issues
Low T is only one element. High estrogen levels due to increased aromatase production, low dopamine,
elevated prolactin levels plus all the leptin & insulin resistance that occurs
So, in my case, in addition to controlling my calorie intake I have been using all manner of protocols to raise T, lower estradiol, lower prolactin, block aromatase, increase insulin sensitivity and I will be doing re-feeds at some point to deal with falling leptin
However, none of those things would create weight loss if I were eating more calories than I burn6 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »When I talked about hormones earlier it may have confused some.
Having a hormone imbalance doesn't invalidate the basic principles of calories in, calories out. What hormone imbalacesdo is changes the math. Because of an imbalance you may need to eat less to lose weight or you may store calories as fat easier. Calories still matter but knowing how many you burn gets way more tricky with an imbalance.
Is there a statistically significant percentage of the population with hormonal issues so pronounced that it is significantly impacting weight loss? I see it come up a lot in the forums when people want to push back about the simplicity of CICO (whether you agree with it or not) from some quarters but never see this extrapolate to the real world.
4.6 percent of the US population (over 12 yo) has hypothyroidism
And the percentage who have hypothyroidism to the point that it's an impact to weightloss is likely statistically insignificant.
Perhaps so.0 -
When people view any issue in only black and white terms they miss the bigger picture. I think people just starting might realize that if that eat a lot of sugar one time and it fills up their calories for the day and they get hungry later that maybe reducing the portion of sugar is a better idea. They learn what foods satiate them and learn portion control by learning what 100 calories of something looks like. Everything is a fad diet if you don't learn from it and don't incorporate it into a lifelong maintenance plan.
Yes, this exactly! I'm not sure there is anything wrong with telling people that they can eat whatever they want and still lose weight as long as CI<CO. It's a true statement and could be very beneficial. I've read posts from people on MFP that say they really did not know it was that simple.
As you say, even if someone did take that and try to lose weight eating only junk food they'll likely learn pretty quickly that you don't get to eat much when all your food is high calorie and learn to add other stuff in.
And if they don't, they'll still lose weight. It's better to be at a healthy weight eating junk than overweight and eating junk.4 -
does this mean I shouldn't be having french toast any more?2
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »When people view any issue in only black and white terms they miss the bigger picture. I think people just starting might realize that if that eat a lot of sugar one time and it fills up their calories for the day and they get hungry later that maybe reducing the portion of sugar is a better idea. They learn what foods satiate them and learn portion control by learning what 100 calories of something looks like. Everything is a fad diet if you don't learn from it and don't incorporate it into a lifelong maintenance plan.
Yes, this exactly! I'm not sure there is anything wrong with telling people that they can eat whatever they want and still lose weight as long as CI<CO. It's a true statement and could be very beneficial. I've read posts from people on MFP that say they really did not know it was that simple.
As you say, even if someone did take that and try to lose weight eating only junk food they'll likely learn pretty quickly that you don't get to eat much when all your food is high calorie and learn to add other stuff in.
And if they don't, they'll still lose weight. It's better to be at a healthy weight eating junk than overweight and eating junk.
This is exactly right.
When my Personal Trainer told me to eat 2000 cals a day I never thought I'd manage (I weighed 292lbs at the time)
but by learning to eat foods that fill me up and nourish me I manage it quite easily now4 -
Rickster1967 wrote: »Obese men, like me, especially over 50 have major hormonal issues
Low T is only one element. High estrogen levels due to increased aromatase production, low dopamine,
elevated prolactin levels plus all the leptin & insulin resistance that occurs
So, in my case, in addition to controlling my calorie intake I have been using all manner of protocols to raise T, lower estradiol, lower prolactin, block aromatase, increase insulin sensitivity and I will be doing re-feeds at some point to deal with falling leptin
However, none of those things would create weight loss if I were eating more calories than I burn
Yes -- this is a good illustration of how focusing on a calorie deficit by no means prevents you from also doing other good things for your health.
The idea that if someone focuses on a calorie deficit and realizes you can lose weight eating anything that they will eat a bad diet as a result is just so weird to me.2 -
I think calling CICO a way of eating is incorrect. It is an equation. CI < CO = weight loss, CI = CO = maintenance, and CI > CO = weight gain. Any WOE in which you lose weight is via CI < CO.
The actual article is a hot mess.
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Yes, this exactly! I'm not sure there is anything wrong with telling people that they can eat whatever they want and still lose weight as long as CI<CO. It's a true statement and could be very beneficial. I've read posts from people on MFP that say they really did not know it was that simple.
See, I'm one of them. Before coming here and figuring it out, there was no way in hell I was going to diet as I loathe most vegetables and wasn't about to eat a bunch of rabbit food. I'd rather be obese than have to eat salad day in and day out. And yes, I thought that was what was needed.
So seeing what kinds of food I CAN eat while losing weight was an eye opener and an big deal to me. Yes I eat more veggies than 2 years ago, but I was looking at my shopping on Saturday. Bacon, Mars bites, cheese etc. and said to my wife "look at my diet food".
7 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Rickster1967 wrote: »Obese men, like me, especially over 50 have major hormonal issues
Low T is only one element. High estrogen levels due to increased aromatase production, low dopamine,
elevated prolactin levels plus all the leptin & insulin resistance that occurs
So, in my case, in addition to controlling my calorie intake I have been using all manner of protocols to raise T, lower estradiol, lower prolactin, block aromatase, increase insulin sensitivity and I will be doing re-feeds at some point to deal with falling leptin
However, none of those things would create weight loss if I were eating more calories than I burn
Yes -- this is a good illustration of how focusing on a calorie deficit by no means prevents you from also doing other good things for your health.
The idea that if someone focuses on a calorie deficit and realizes you can lose weight eating anything that they will eat a bad diet as a result is just so weird to me.
it was the bad diet that got me sick, fat and nearly dead
anyone knows that if you're going to successfully lose weight you need to make healthier choices, after all a lot of obese / overweight people will have been yo-yo dieters (I was) before starting their current weight loss efforts
I have promised myself this is the last time I will lose weight. Get to target then maintain using CICO1 -
liftingbro wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »When I talked about hormones earlier it may have confused some.
Having a hormone imbalance doesn't invalidate the basic principles of calories in, calories out. What hormone imbalacesdo is changes the math. Because of an imbalance you may need to eat less to lose weight or you may store calories as fat easier. Calories still matter but knowing how many you burn gets way more tricky with an imbalance.
Is there a statistically significant percentage of the population with hormonal issues so pronounced that it is significantly impacting weight loss? I see it come up a lot in the forums when people want to push back about the simplicity of CICO (whether you agree with it or not) from some quarters but never see this extrapolate to the real world.
Yes, there is.
Leptin and insulin resistance are very common in obese people.
Low testosterone and PCOS are fairly common.
These things don't keep people from losing weight altogether but certainly can make it slower.
Leptin drops when you lose weight which can decrease thyroid function and increase muscle efficiency so your BMR drops quite a bir. It's one of the causes of plateaus.
Go read the refeeds and diet breaks thread.
Yes! Refeeds can help leptin levels.
And some of the people you're trying to school on leptin are the prominent posters in said 2k post refeeds thread...I think we may have a fair idea about leptin and its effects on weight loss. Leptin doesn't negate CICO, nor do thyroid or cortisol. It changes the CO part of the equation. It's still CICO, you just have to account for it (or be smart and incorporate diet breaks and refeeds into your weight loss plan...I may be biased on this...).7 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »When I talked about hormones earlier it may have confused some.
Having a hormone imbalance doesn't invalidate the basic principles of calories in, calories out. What hormone imbalacesdo is changes the math. Because of an imbalance you may need to eat less to lose weight or you may store calories as fat easier. Calories still matter but knowing how many you burn gets way more tricky with an imbalance.
Is there a statistically significant percentage of the population with hormonal issues so pronounced that it is significantly impacting weight loss? I see it come up a lot in the forums when people want to push back about the simplicity of CICO (whether you agree with it or not) from some quarters but never see this extrapolate to the real world.
Yes, there is.
Leptin and insulin resistance are very common in obese people.
Low testosterone and PCOS are fairly common.
These things don't keep people from losing weight altogether but certainly can make it slower.
Leptin drops when you lose weight which can decrease thyroid function and increase muscle efficiency so your BMR drops quite a bir. It's one of the causes of plateaus.
Go read the refeeds and diet breaks thread.
Yes! Refeeds can help leptin levels.
And some of the people you're trying to school on leptin are the prominent posters in said 2k post refeeds thread...I think we may have a fair idea about leptin and its effects on weight loss. Leptin doesn't negate CICO, nor do thyroid or cortisol. It changes the CO part of the equation. It's still CICO, you just have to account for it (or be smart and incorporate diet breaks and refeeds into your weight loss plan...I may be biased on this...).
Isn't that what he said above?2 -
liftingbro wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »When I talked about hormones earlier it may have confused some.
Having a hormone imbalance doesn't invalidate the basic principles of calories in, calories out. What hormone imbalacesdo is changes the math. Because of an imbalance you may need to eat less to lose weight or you may store calories as fat easier. Calories still matter but knowing how many you burn gets way more tricky with an imbalance.
Is there a statistically significant percentage of the population with hormonal issues so pronounced that it is significantly impacting weight loss? I see it come up a lot in the forums when people want to push back about the simplicity of CICO (whether you agree with it or not) from some quarters but never see this extrapolate to the real world.
Yes, there is.
Leptin and insulin resistance are very common in obese people.
Low testosterone and PCOS are fairly common.
These things don't keep people from losing weight altogether but certainly can make it slower.
Leptin drops when you lose weight which can decrease thyroid function and increase muscle efficiency so your BMR drops quite a bir. It's one of the causes of plateaus.
Go read the refeeds and diet breaks thread.
Yes! Refeeds can help leptin levels.
They also help T3 and cortisol.
You're talking to a lot of people who implement refeeds and diet breaks as part of their strategy to offset the hormonal down regulations that occur with dieting.
Those hormonal down regulations don't change CICO to a significant extent to muddy the waters of the discussion. They often make dietary compliance harder, and they can mask scale movement due to water retention issues (this specifically applies to cortisol).
Your points regarding insulin resistance and leptin resistance in the obese can be addressed through exercise and macro balancing. This is still secondary to energy balance, as the video I posted by Mike Israetel shows. He sifted through the data. The main driver will always be calories.6 -
VintageFeline wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »When I talked about hormones earlier it may have confused some.
Having a hormone imbalance doesn't invalidate the basic principles of calories in, calories out. What hormone imbalacesdo is changes the math. Because of an imbalance you may need to eat less to lose weight or you may store calories as fat easier. Calories still matter but knowing how many you burn gets way more tricky with an imbalance.
Is there a statistically significant percentage of the population with hormonal issues so pronounced that it is significantly impacting weight loss? I see it come up a lot in the forums when people want to push back about the simplicity of CICO (whether you agree with it or not) from some quarters but never see this extrapolate to the real world.
I accidentally posted it in the debate forum last week, but long story short I got too busy with work to go get an update on my thyroid meds. Went 10 days without and could barely hold my head up. Even after I got back on my meds it took 2 weeks for my weight to start moving again even counting and weighing and doing everything right. So there is a lot of truth in the hormones cause hell argument.
5 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »When I talked about hormones earlier it may have confused some.
Having a hormone imbalance doesn't invalidate the basic principles of calories in, calories out. What hormone imbalacesdo is changes the math. Because of an imbalance you may need to eat less to lose weight or you may store calories as fat easier. Calories still matter but knowing how many you burn gets way more tricky with an imbalance.
Is there a statistically significant percentage of the population with hormonal issues so pronounced that it is significantly impacting weight loss? I see it come up a lot in the forums when people want to push back about the simplicity of CICO (whether you agree with it or not) from some quarters but never see this extrapolate to the real world.
Yes, there is.
Leptin and insulin resistance are very common in obese people.
Low testosterone and PCOS are fairly common.
These things don't keep people from losing weight altogether but certainly can make it slower.
Leptin drops when you lose weight which can decrease thyroid function and increase muscle efficiency so your BMR drops quite a bir. It's one of the causes of plateaus.
Go read the refeeds and diet breaks thread.
Yes! Refeeds can help leptin levels.
And some of the people you're trying to school on leptin are the prominent posters in said 2k post refeeds thread...I think we may have a fair idea about leptin and its effects on weight loss. Leptin doesn't negate CICO, nor do thyroid or cortisol. It changes the CO part of the equation. It's still CICO, you just have to account for it (or be smart and incorporate diet breaks and refeeds into your weight loss plan...I may be biased on this...).
Not trying to school anyone. Just putting facts out there because there seem to be a few confused people.
Also, I did say in my.posts that it doesn't negate CICO, just changes the math.2 -
Rickster1967 wrote: »Obese men, like me, especially over 50 have major hormonal issues
Low T is only one element. High estrogen levels due to increased aromatase production, low dopamine,
elevated prolactin levels plus all the leptin & insulin resistance that occurs
So, in my case, in addition to controlling my calorie intake I have been using all manner of protocols to raise T, lower estradiol, lower prolactin, block aromatase, increase insulin sensitivity and I will be doing re-feeds at some point to deal with falling leptin
However, none of those things would create weight loss if I were eating more calories than I burn
It makes me wonder though--do people become obese because of the hormone issues, or do they have the hormone issues because they are obese?3 -
liftingbro wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »When I talked about hormones earlier it may have confused some.
Having a hormone imbalance doesn't invalidate the basic principles of calories in, calories out. What hormone imbalacesdo is changes the math. Because of an imbalance you may need to eat less to lose weight or you may store calories as fat easier. Calories still matter but knowing how many you burn gets way more tricky with an imbalance.
Is there a statistically significant percentage of the population with hormonal issues so pronounced that it is significantly impacting weight loss? I see it come up a lot in the forums when people want to push back about the simplicity of CICO (whether you agree with it or not) from some quarters but never see this extrapolate to the real world.
Yes, there is.
Leptin and insulin resistance are very common in obese people.
Low testosterone and PCOS are fairly common.
These things don't keep people from losing weight altogether but certainly can make it slower.
Leptin drops when you lose weight which can decrease thyroid function and increase muscle efficiency so your BMR drops quite a bir. It's one of the causes of plateaus.
Go read the refeeds and diet breaks thread.
Yes! Refeeds can help leptin levels.
And some of the people you're trying to school on leptin are the prominent posters in said 2k post refeeds thread...I think we may have a fair idea about leptin and its effects on weight loss. Leptin doesn't negate CICO, nor do thyroid or cortisol. It changes the CO part of the equation. It's still CICO, you just have to account for it (or be smart and incorporate diet breaks and refeeds into your weight loss plan...I may be biased on this...).
Not trying to school anyone. Just putting facts out there because there seem to be a few confused people.
Also, I did say in my.posts that it doesn't negate CICO, just changes the math.
What does this have to do with the posted article?4 -
maggibailey wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »When I talked about hormones earlier it may have confused some.
Having a hormone imbalance doesn't invalidate the basic principles of calories in, calories out. What hormone imbalacesdo is changes the math. Because of an imbalance you may need to eat less to lose weight or you may store calories as fat easier. Calories still matter but knowing how many you burn gets way more tricky with an imbalance.
Is there a statistically significant percentage of the population with hormonal issues so pronounced that it is significantly impacting weight loss? I see it come up a lot in the forums when people want to push back about the simplicity of CICO (whether you agree with it or not) from some quarters but never see this extrapolate to the real world.
I accidentally posted it in the debate forum last week, but long story short I got too busy with work to go get an update on my thyroid meds. Went 10 days without and could barely hold my head up. Even after I got back on my meds it took 2 weeks for my weight to start moving again even counting and weighing and doing everything right. So there is a lot of truth in the hormones cause hell argument.
So that would be an untreated medical condition. Decreased energy will have significantly reduced your NEAT which will of course impact your caloric needs and slow or stop losses depending on what deficit you were aiming for.
But I am pleased you're sorted out again now.
I am not saying some people don't have hormonal issues but it is brought up with such regularity as a major factor to weight loss sometimes that is beyond reasonable. There are very few people for whom hormonal imbalances will stop weight loss altogether and even fewer if they are diagnosed and treated. It's something that I don't think needs to be brought up with the genpop when it comes to explanation and implementation of CICO whatever method is chosen.
How often do we see threads where someone insists they are doing everything right, has even been to the doctor for a battery of tests so convinced are they that they can't lose on 1200 calories. Dig a little deeper and it's a logging issue. Very very rarely does someone come back and say it's a medical issue.
I don't think it's helpful to the wider discussion to pop up with "BUT HORMONES" when the impact is not nearly as significant as the one shouting it wants it to be.8 -
Rickster1967 wrote: »Obese men, like me, especially over 50 have major hormonal issues
Low T is only one element. High estrogen levels due to increased aromatase production, low dopamine,
elevated prolactin levels plus all the leptin & insulin resistance that occurs
So, in my case, in addition to controlling my calorie intake I have been using all manner of protocols to raise T, lower estradiol, lower prolactin, block aromatase, increase insulin sensitivity and I will be doing re-feeds at some point to deal with falling leptin
However, none of those things would create weight loss if I were eating more calories than I burn
It makes me wonder though--do people become obese because of the hormone issues, or do they have the hormone issues because they are obese?
Adipose tissue is hormonally active, that's for sure. A lot of obese people with hormone issues no longer have them after becoming active and losing weight.9 -
Rickster1967 wrote: »Obese men, like me, especially over 50 have major hormonal issues
Low T is only one element. High estrogen levels due to increased aromatase production, low dopamine,
elevated prolactin levels plus all the leptin & insulin resistance that occurs
So, in my case, in addition to controlling my calorie intake I have been using all manner of protocols to raise T, lower estradiol, lower prolactin, block aromatase, increase insulin sensitivity and I will be doing re-feeds at some point to deal with falling leptin
However, none of those things would create weight loss if I were eating more calories than I burn
It makes me wonder though--do people become obese because of the hormone issues, or do they have the hormone issues because they are obese?
in my own case, I developed all the hormonal problems after becoming obese
i.e I didn't have them before I put on a lot of weight4 -
I would have been highly disappointed if a straightforward discussion of CICO didn't end up becoming a discussion about outlying medical issues that realistically affect a relatively small population.16
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