Calorie count or Keto?
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cwolfman13 wrote: »xhunter561 wrote: »I see no reason to restrict an entire macro (which I personally would not be able to sustain) when I can just count calories and eat what I enjoy.
Calories all the way.
your not completely restricting them. your just removing basically all the simple carbs and keeping the complex ones.
mmapags: sense being on keto i have been doing a average of 30 to 40 mile runs each week when it's not sleeting, having over time, or just being busy.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/11/151117091234.htm one study but note that it was a test of high carb against keto BUT they used athletic adults on both.
http://sci-fit.net/2017/ketogenic-diet-fat-muscle-performance/#Keto_and_athletic_performance is another interesting one
but as for keto and endurance from a personal stand point using fat as a primary source of energy helps a lot, reduces burnouts, and you can just keep going and going till your legs start hurting or you get bored. but this can differ between people and their genetics and if they work better with high carb or high fat or those that cycle carbs just before a workout and cycle low to no carbs in their rest. I personally don't do go with any type of high carb diets (mainly referring to fruit only diets and vegan diets, both of which made me sick) But keto is just one type and there are going to be those that it will not help at all its just a thing of figuring out what your body works best with.
Your first link demonstrates greater fat burning not endurance performance. This is no surprise. They ingest more fat. They burn dietary fat not body fat.
A quote from the 2nd link.In one of the longest ketogenic diet studies to date, Zinn et al, used aged endurance athletes (Zinn et al., 2017). They found a decrease in performance using several tests such as time to exhaustion, Vo2 max, and peak power.
The keto endurance studies are a mixed bag. Many of them have very small sample sizes and are relatively short in duration
If it's what you prefer, great. But what you posted doesn't demonstrate an advantage of keto for endurance athletes.
I would also add to this that high end athletes are pretty much narcotic about anything that could give them even a hint of an advantage when it comes to diet and training, supplementation, and anything else...if keto truly showed a viable performance advantage, we'd see a lot more than just a handful of articles and studies...like every athlete out there would be on the band wagon.
Because of where I train, I'm around a lot of top level amateur athletes looking to go pro and a handful of pros...most of them are cyclists or BMX riders...some of the train for periods of time with keto (mostly the cyclists), but not full time...it's just a small part of their training protocol...none of them race keto. I only know one guy who races keto and he's an ultra athlete and runs like 100 miles at a pop...he doesn't have to go fast, he mostly just has to endure the miles...but even then, he's not full time keto.
Yep, Matt Fitzgerald explores this in his book "The Endurance Diet." Elite athletes get a chance to see each other's routines during international competition. If keto (or any other specialized diet) did offer an edge to elite athletes, you'd expect to see it spread through their community pretty quickly. But we haven't seen that.4 -
janejellyroll wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »xhunter561 wrote: »I see no reason to restrict an entire macro (which I personally would not be able to sustain) when I can just count calories and eat what I enjoy.
Calories all the way.
your not completely restricting them. your just removing basically all the simple carbs and keeping the complex ones.
mmapags: sense being on keto i have been doing a average of 30 to 40 mile runs each week when it's not sleeting, having over time, or just being busy.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/11/151117091234.htm one study but note that it was a test of high carb against keto BUT they used athletic adults on both.
http://sci-fit.net/2017/ketogenic-diet-fat-muscle-performance/#Keto_and_athletic_performance is another interesting one
but as for keto and endurance from a personal stand point using fat as a primary source of energy helps a lot, reduces burnouts, and you can just keep going and going till your legs start hurting or you get bored. but this can differ between people and their genetics and if they work better with high carb or high fat or those that cycle carbs just before a workout and cycle low to no carbs in their rest. I personally don't do go with any type of high carb diets (mainly referring to fruit only diets and vegan diets, both of which made me sick) But keto is just one type and there are going to be those that it will not help at all its just a thing of figuring out what your body works best with.
Your first link demonstrates greater fat burning not endurance performance. This is no surprise. They ingest more fat. They burn dietary fat not body fat.
A quote from the 2nd link.In one of the longest ketogenic diet studies to date, Zinn et al, used aged endurance athletes (Zinn et al., 2017). They found a decrease in performance using several tests such as time to exhaustion, Vo2 max, and peak power.
The keto endurance studies are a mixed bag. Many of them have very small sample sizes and are relatively short in duration
If it's what you prefer, great. But what you posted doesn't demonstrate an advantage of keto for endurance athletes.
I would also add to this that high end athletes are pretty much narcotic about anything that could give them even a hint of an advantage when it comes to diet and training, supplementation, and anything else...if keto truly showed a viable performance advantage, we'd see a lot more than just a handful of articles and studies...like every athlete out there would be on the band wagon.
Because of where I train, I'm around a lot of top level amateur athletes looking to go pro and a handful of pros...most of them are cyclists or BMX riders...some of the train for periods of time with keto (mostly the cyclists), but not full time...it's just a small part of their training protocol...none of them race keto. I only know one guy who races keto and he's an ultra athlete and runs like 100 miles at a pop...he doesn't have to go fast, he mostly just has to endure the miles...but even then, he's not full time keto.
Yep, Matt Fitzgerald explores this in his book "The Endurance Diet." Elite athletes get a chance to see each other's routines during international competition. If keto (or any other specialized diet) did offer an edge to elite athletes, you'd expect to see it spread through their community pretty quickly. But we haven't seen that.
Like wild fire...the guys I'm around are like white on rice when it looks like something could give them even just a hint of advantage over the other guy...4 -
janejellyroll wrote: »xhunter561 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »xhunter561 wrote: »I see no reason to restrict an entire macro (which I personally would not be able to sustain) when I can just count calories and eat what I enjoy.
Calories all the way.
your not completely restricting them. your just removing basically all the simple carbs and keeping the complex ones.
mmapags: sense being on keto i have been doing a average of 30 to 40 mile runs each week when it's not sleeting, having over time, or just being busy.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/11/151117091234.htm one study but note that it was a test of high carb against keto BUT they used athletic adults on both.
http://sci-fit.net/2017/ketogenic-diet-fat-muscle-performance/#Keto_and_athletic_performance is another interesting one
but as for keto and endurance from a personal stand point using fat as a primary source of energy helps a lot, reduces burnouts, and you can just keep going and going till your legs start hurting or you get bored. but this can differ between people and their genetics and if they work better with high carb or high fat or those that cycle carbs just before a workout and cycle low to no carbs in their rest. I personally don't do go with any type of high carb diets (mainly referring to fruit only diets and vegan diets, both of which made me sick) But keto is just one type and there are going to be those that it will not help at all its just a thing of figuring out what your body works best with.
I wasn't aware that keto didn't allow simple carbohydrates -- I thought sometimes people ate berries on keto?
By the way, veganism wouldn't be classified as a high carbohydrate diet by definition. It can -- like a non-vegan diet -- be high in carbohydrates. But there are also vegans who do moderate carbohydrate or even low carbohydrate. I'm not sure how veganism -- in and of itself -- could have made you ill, although it's certainly possible for vegans (like non-vegans) to eat a diet that doesn't meet their nutritional needs and/or leads to illness.
strawberries, black berries, ect you can when your adapted. for me anything over 20g of net carb/simple carbs/sugars in general is too high or at lest for me. If I go over the 20g I normally start getting bad pains as well as bad headaches I am just the type of person who can't have that type of stuff if i want to be healthy. That and I think with the vegan diet that I tried it was high in plant proteins which i can't have in large amounts unless i want bad kidney pain. When I have days that I do workouts I can sometimes get away with a little more but that's rather rare like this week where i was at lest able to get my 40 miles in without freezing rain or work. But I normally stay away from fruits and a certain veggies because of my systems intolerance to them.
So if keto does allow one to consume fruit (which contains simple carbohydrates) in a limited quantity in some circumstances and if it restricts complex carbohydrates, I don't understand the claim that keto is "removing basically all the simple carbs and keeping the complex ones." It would probably be more accurate to stay that both simple and complex carbohydrates are limited on keto. Bread, for example, is a complex carbohydrate. But most people on keto couldn't consume very much at all before they began taking themselves out of the ketogenic state.
I'm not familiar with the mechanism that would have protein from plants -- specifically -- cause kidney pain. Protein from plants is made up of the same amino acids that make up protein from animal sources.
Vegans and non-vegans are getting their protein from the same collections of amino acids. There may be specific plant foods that individuals don't tolerate well, but the protein itself . . . I don't see how that could be an issue for you.
All to a extent would probably been better for me to have said, I normally try for removing as many as I can without skimping on my other nutrition needs. But fruits are much more likely to push someone out of keto than that of the complex carbs from veggies. Their are a lot of people out there that do keto that just don't prefer eating fruits unless it's like a hass avacodo or something lower on the Glycemic Index like strawberries. But I just can't have the high plant protein and that is the major thing in common when i do have that problem. Once it happened after trying pea protein in my shake (whole scoop) and a few hours after the pain started I peed blood. the other time was when i was trying to transfer over to more plant based proteins (hemp seeds, almond butters, ect).6 -
xhunter561 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »xhunter561 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »xhunter561 wrote: »I see no reason to restrict an entire macro (which I personally would not be able to sustain) when I can just count calories and eat what I enjoy.
Calories all the way.
your not completely restricting them. your just removing basically all the simple carbs and keeping the complex ones.
mmapags: sense being on keto i have been doing a average of 30 to 40 mile runs each week when it's not sleeting, having over time, or just being busy.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/11/151117091234.htm one study but note that it was a test of high carb against keto BUT they used athletic adults on both.
http://sci-fit.net/2017/ketogenic-diet-fat-muscle-performance/#Keto_and_athletic_performance is another interesting one
but as for keto and endurance from a personal stand point using fat as a primary source of energy helps a lot, reduces burnouts, and you can just keep going and going till your legs start hurting or you get bored. but this can differ between people and their genetics and if they work better with high carb or high fat or those that cycle carbs just before a workout and cycle low to no carbs in their rest. I personally don't do go with any type of high carb diets (mainly referring to fruit only diets and vegan diets, both of which made me sick) But keto is just one type and there are going to be those that it will not help at all its just a thing of figuring out what your body works best with.
I wasn't aware that keto didn't allow simple carbohydrates -- I thought sometimes people ate berries on keto?
By the way, veganism wouldn't be classified as a high carbohydrate diet by definition. It can -- like a non-vegan diet -- be high in carbohydrates. But there are also vegans who do moderate carbohydrate or even low carbohydrate. I'm not sure how veganism -- in and of itself -- could have made you ill, although it's certainly possible for vegans (like non-vegans) to eat a diet that doesn't meet their nutritional needs and/or leads to illness.
strawberries, black berries, ect you can when your adapted. for me anything over 20g of net carb/simple carbs/sugars in general is too high or at lest for me. If I go over the 20g I normally start getting bad pains as well as bad headaches I am just the type of person who can't have that type of stuff if i want to be healthy. That and I think with the vegan diet that I tried it was high in plant proteins which i can't have in large amounts unless i want bad kidney pain. When I have days that I do workouts I can sometimes get away with a little more but that's rather rare like this week where i was at lest able to get my 40 miles in without freezing rain or work. But I normally stay away from fruits and a certain veggies because of my systems intolerance to them.
So if keto does allow one to consume fruit (which contains simple carbohydrates) in a limited quantity in some circumstances and if it restricts complex carbohydrates, I don't understand the claim that keto is "removing basically all the simple carbs and keeping the complex ones." It would probably be more accurate to stay that both simple and complex carbohydrates are limited on keto. Bread, for example, is a complex carbohydrate. But most people on keto couldn't consume very much at all before they began taking themselves out of the ketogenic state.
I'm not familiar with the mechanism that would have protein from plants -- specifically -- cause kidney pain. Protein from plants is made up of the same amino acids that make up protein from animal sources.
Vegans and non-vegans are getting their protein from the same collections of amino acids. There may be specific plant foods that individuals don't tolerate well, but the protein itself . . . I don't see how that could be an issue for you.
All to a extent would probably been better for me to have said, I normally try for removing as many as I can without skimping on my other nutrition needs. But fruits are much more likely to push someone out of keto than that of the complex carbs from veggies. Their are a lot of people out there that do keto that just don't prefer eating fruits unless it's like a hass avacodo or something lower on the Glycemic Index like strawberries. But I just can't have the high plant protein and that is the major thing in common when i do have that problem. Once it happened after trying pea protein in my shake (whole scoop) and a few hours after the pain started I peed blood. the other time was when i was trying to transfer over to more plant based proteins (hemp seeds, almond butters, ect).
People on keto may prefer certain fruits over others or may prefer not to have fruit at all. That isn't really the topic though: what was being discussed was the claim that keto involved eliminating simple carbohydrates. It doesn't. If someone wants some berries (or another food with simple carbohydrates) and they choose a portion size that fits in their goals, it is perfectly compatible with staying on keto.
If there was blood in my urine, I think I would get that checked out. I wouldn't use self-diagnosis. This doesn't sound like a problem with protein, it sounds like something else may be going on.4 -
Fat cannot be utilized quick enough to fuel activities over 70% Vo2 max (basic textbook physiology). 70% VO2 max is the energy you'd expend playing shuffleboard with a vivacious granny. Carbs are king for real sportsxhunter561 wrote: »Early in the thread was some good information, IMO. You'll need to be in a calorie deficit to lose weight on a ketogenic diet - any diet really - but some people find they naturally eat less when low carb, or that there may be a very small faster rate of losing a a certain calorie level (slightly elevated calories burned).
Athletic performance tends to dip slightly in the first few months on a ketogenic diet while one becomes fat adapted. After that, it tends to even out with a possible slight advantage to endurance athletes and a possible slight disadvantage to athletes who rely on explosive, quick movements.
Atkins or Keto Clarity are easy to read places to start. For more science, try The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living or The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance (both by Phinney and Volek), and the Ketogenic Bible. Peter Attia has a great blog on why cholesterol is not a problem on a low carb diet (unless you have familial hypercholesterolemia affecting it). Tuit Nutrition is quite good too.
Also the Low Carber Daily and Keto MFP groups can help you out a lot
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/group/1143-keto
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/group/394-low-carber-daily-forum-the-lcd-group
Please post credible studies that indicate any improved performance for endurance athletes. This was discussed in depth in a thread you participated in last week where you made this same claim. All you posted in support was 1 study that did not substantiate your claim while others posted mulitple ones that disproved it. Most elite endurance athletes who practice keto, carb load before competitions due to performance fall off from keto.
keto done right has the potential to boost endurance sports the only thing is it can take a little longer to improve speed given the fact its more of a steady source of energy not so much as explosive as glucose unless the said person eats a small bit of simple carbs before the workout to get a small boost. But it takes doing keto and tracking just to see the improvements though for me their was a small dip for about two months before it went up higher.7 -
Keto is my "back up" diet. I read that it's good to have a back up diet if you feel like giving in.
I do mostly plant based foods, and have found that the most important thing for me is to get at least 25 grams of fiber per day. That's proven to be more valuable to both my weight loss and overall wellness.
However, every once in awhile I just feel "goddamn it, I don't want any more healthy food!" and I look at all my piles of concentrated veggie soups and no-dressing salads and feel this wave of disgust, lol. And on those days I just switch to keto and it doesn't throw me off my game, and it's very satisfying and enjoyable.
No idea how it works long term, though. Haven't tried it long term.2 -
Log everything. Keto or no Keto. I've done everything from high carb raw vegan, vegetarian, IF, One meal a day, to Keto, and they all have worked as long as I logged and stayed within my calorie limits. Do I have a preferred way of eating? Sure I do. Actually, it changes all the time, and that's fine as long as it's what's making me happy and helps me stick to my chosen plan of the day. If you like Keto, go for it. If you aren't "feeling it" find something that fits YOU.5
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xhunter561 wrote: »I see no reason to restrict an entire macro (which I personally would not be able to sustain) when I can just count calories and eat what I enjoy.
Calories all the way.
your not completely restricting them. your just removing basically all the simple carbs and keeping the complex ones.
No, you can consume simple carbs within the (low) limit, as janejellyroll noted (and as one can see if one follows real life people doing keto). You also must limit complex carbs (like roasted potatoes, oats, bread!, even legumes). Heck, some consider keto under 20 net carbs (some even do under 20 total), and I'd have to strictly limit even vegetables on that.4 -
I started out here counting calories, but stalled out. I exercise 3 or 4 days a week and in the summer bike a lot. I probably ride between 60 and 100 miles a week. I had lost around 20 pounds, then stalled. I hadn't been counting my calories as well and would really take advantage of the 1000 or so calorie burn bike rides as an excuse to eat more. I then decided to cut carbs way back, and have lost a few pounds, but not what I was expecting. Some people on the keto diets seem to lose weight so quickly. My carbs are way down, but I'm wondering if I'm eating too many calories. I also worry about cholesterol going up from long term fatty diet. I'm thinking about going back to calorie counting and being more strict. Just wondering what some of you think of as the pros and cons of calories vs keto. If I cheat with calorie counting that's a bad day, but if I cheat on the low carb diet it takes a week or so to get back to where I was and recoup.
I've gone from moderately low carb for weight loss by cutting out sweet treats (because I am lousy at moderating them) to keto (<20 carb grams) for 52 weeks as a trial for my neurological movement disorder to currently very low carb/high fat (most of 2017).
During all ways of eating I have counted calories. My experience with keto was the lchf combination was great for suppressing my hunger and cravings for sweets. That was not the case my 1st 2 years of maintenance via considerably higher carb and lower fat. I was always hungry. For this reason, I continued throughout 2017 eating ~50 grams of carbs and ~100 each of fat and protein. LCHF. Some would call it keto but I've not tested ketone levels. The hunger suppression and lack of interest in sweets is what interests me.
Eating keto or very low carb for me is fairly easy because most of my eating is at home. When eating VL carb is not practical or convenient (maybe 30 times a year), I eat "whatever" but keep calories in mind. I've not experienced significant temporary water weight gain on my higher carb days but I've never gone crazy with it either. Because calories. Calories remain important to me for maintenance. A very low carb way of eating helps me adhere to my low calorie amount as an older female who doesn't get a lot of exercise. My involuntary movement makes exercise awkward and uncomfortable but doesn't burn many calories.
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Please explain how there are slightly elevated calories burned? You are taking anecdotal, observational "evidence" based on personal experience that could be influenced by any number of factors not related to what you're claiming and extrapolating something that's not necessarily true based on scientific evidence.
In fact, in controlled lab studies, a slight fat loss advantage went to low fat diets, not low carb diets, though over time, they perform roughly equally.
You keep making claims about keto that are unfounded.
Lest anyone get me wrong here, I am not anti-keto. I am against promoting false information regarding it, and you keep trying to make it superior in some ways in order to promote it. Why?
Why can't it simply be a valid choice and preference for some people?
It is a diet of choice, but for some it also improves their health.
Conversely, why can't you accept that?
As for my "claims", the FASTER study did have a slightly elevated caloric burn. Very slight. It was not a long term study so we don't know if it falls off to zero or not. Also, when many people switch to keto, their macro nutrients change and they eat more protein which is thermogenic. I've had many "non-anti-keto'ers remind me that keto'ers may just be benefiting from extra protein. It's true. It's still keto and still a slightly faster weight loss.
And then there is my n=1. I lost slightly faster than expected, about 2-3 lbs per week on a 1500 kcal diet while sedentary. I expected to lose about 1.5 lbs a week.
It is not a huge benefit, and not everyone experiences it but it is a small increase. For some.
Perhaps others may lose faster at vegan or paleo or SAD at a deficit...
I won't bother responding to the others who addressed me since it was basically the same thing.
I don't have a bunch of studies book marked for people. Here's a bunch of LCHF studies. https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/23-studies-on-low-carb-and-low-fat-diets#section1
Some deal with people eating naturally less. People lost more on a LCHF diet in these studies. I am sure there are others out there that show people lost more when not LCHF. That's why I said some people and not all people.
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Keto is a great way to eat in so many ways. Ive lost over 100 pounds since January and i have never felt better! The thing about keto is that people wrongly assune that calories dont matter while on it. This isnt true at all. Calories always matter. What is inportant is how your macros are set up. I highly suggest checking out ketogains macro calulator and using those macros for 6 weeks before you make a decision on if it works or not. I count macros ( its calories) and i make sure to fall within them. Yes- cheat days turn into a bloated and nasty mess on keto because carbs will make you retain water etc. ive binged on carbs and also binged on keto foods as well. My diary is open and would love to help anyone/anyway i can.I started out here counting calories, but stalled out. I exercise 3 or 4 days a week and in the summer bike a lot. I probably ride between 60 and 100 miles a week. I had lost around 20 pounds, then stalled. I hadn't been counting my calories as well and would really take advantage of the 1000 or so calorie burn bike rides as an excuse to eat more. I then decided to cut carbs way back, and have lost a few pounds, but not what I was expecting. Some people on the keto diets seem to lose weight so quickly. My carbs are way down, but I'm wondering if I'm eating too many calories. I also worry about cholesterol going up from long term fatty diet. I'm thinking about going back to calorie counting and being more strict. Just wondering what some of you think of as the pros and cons of calories vs keto. If I cheat with calorie counting that's a bad day, but if I cheat on the low carb diet it takes a week or so to get back to where I was and recoup.
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Please explain how there are slightly elevated calories burned? You are taking anecdotal, observational "evidence" based on personal experience that could be influenced by any number of factors not related to what you're claiming and extrapolating something that's not necessarily true based on scientific evidence.
In fact, in controlled lab studies, a slight fat loss advantage went to low fat diets, not low carb diets, though over time, they perform roughly equally.
You keep making claims about keto that are unfounded.
Lest anyone get me wrong here, I am not anti-keto. I am against promoting false information regarding it, and you keep trying to make it superior in some ways in order to promote it. Why?
Why can't it simply be a valid choice and preference for some people?
It is a diet of choice, but for some it also improves their health.
Conversely, why can't you accept that?
As for my "claims", the FASTER study did have a slightly elevated caloric burn. Very slight. It was not a long term study so we don't know if it falls off to zero or not. Also, when many people switch to keto, their macro nutrients change and they eat more protein which is thermogenic. I've had many "non-anti-keto'ers remind me that keto'ers may just be benefiting from extra protein. It's true. It's still keto and still a slightly faster weight loss.
And then there is my n=1. I lost slightly faster than expected, about 2-3 lbs per week on a 1500 kcal diet while sedentary. I expected to lose about 1.5 lbs a week.
It is not a huge benefit, and not everyone experiences it but it is a small increase. For some.
Perhaps others may lose faster at vegan or paleo or SAD at a deficit...
I won't bother responding to the others who addressed me since it was basically the same thing.
I don't have a bunch of studies book marked for people. Here's a bunch of LCHF studies. https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/23-studies-on-low-carb-and-low-fat-diets#section1
Some deal with people eating naturally less. People lost more on a LCHF diet in these studies. I am sure there are others out there that show people lost more when not LCHF. That's why I said some people and not all people.
You moved the goal posts bringing in health which was never part of your argument in the first place, and that is a silly argument to introduce because saying keto is something that NEEDS to be used for health only applies to a very small handful of people with intractable insulin resistance like you.
Most people, including diabetics, can improve their health with weight loss. Diabetics don't need to low carb, they can just manage their carbs. Keto can be a choice, but it doesn't HAVE to be. This is down to preference. Which is all I am saying.
To the main point, moving your cherry picked resource of poorly conducted studies aside, every study that equates for calories AND protein (yes, it's the TEF of protein, not the magic of keto) shows equal weight loss over time.
Your desperation to show some superiority for keto is just laughable at this point.13 -
If you are going to include data on performance as it relates to keto vs other diets: http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10611377/anyone-read-the-latest-research-on-keto-by-alan-aragon/p1
There is a lot of theoretical benefits to eating keto as it relates to performance. Unfortunately, the evidence doesn't support that theoretical benefit.10 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Please explain how there are slightly elevated calories burned? You are taking anecdotal, observational "evidence" based on personal experience that could be influenced by any number of factors not related to what you're claiming and extrapolating something that's not necessarily true based on scientific evidence.
In fact, in controlled lab studies, a slight fat loss advantage went to low fat diets, not low carb diets, though over time, they perform roughly equally.
You keep making claims about keto that are unfounded.
Lest anyone get me wrong here, I am not anti-keto. I am against promoting false information regarding it, and you keep trying to make it superior in some ways in order to promote it. Why?
Why can't it simply be a valid choice and preference for some people?
It is a diet of choice, but for some it also improves their health.
Conversely, why can't you accept that?
As for my "claims", the FASTER study did have a slightly elevated caloric burn. Very slight. It was not a long term study so we don't know if it falls off to zero or not. Also, when many people switch to keto, their macro nutrients change and they eat more protein which is thermogenic. I've had many "non-anti-keto'ers remind me that keto'ers may just be benefiting from extra protein. It's true. It's still keto and still a slightly faster weight loss.
And then there is my n=1. I lost slightly faster than expected, about 2-3 lbs per week on a 1500 kcal diet while sedentary. I expected to lose about 1.5 lbs a week.
It is not a huge benefit, and not everyone experiences it but it is a small increase. For some.
Perhaps others may lose faster at vegan or paleo or SAD at a deficit...
I won't bother responding to the others who addressed me since it was basically the same thing.
I don't have a bunch of studies book marked for people. Here's a bunch of LCHF studies. https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/23-studies-on-low-carb-and-low-fat-diets#section1
Some deal with people eating naturally less. People lost more on a LCHF diet in these studies. I am sure there are others out there that show people lost more when not LCHF. That's why I said some people and not all people.
You moved the goal posts bringing in health which was never part of your argument in the first place, and that is a silly argument to introduce because saying keto is something that NEEDS to be used for health only applies to a very small handful of people with intractable insulin resistance like you.
Most people, including diabetics, can improve their health with weight loss. Diabetics don't need to low carb, they can just manage their carbs. Keto can be a choice, but it doesn't HAVE to be. This is down to preference. Which is all I am saying.
To the main point, moving your cherry picked resource of poorly conducted studies aside, every study that equates for calories AND protein (yes, it's the TEF of protein, not the magic of keto) shows equal weight loss over time.
Your desperation to show some superiority for keto is just laughable at this point.
It is both laughable and pathetic. It's almost like a used car salesman. Parroting ONE single study, funded by Atkins lol, that is an anomaly against the ENTIRE body of research just shows her extreme lack of scientific knowledge or background.7 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Please explain how there are slightly elevated calories burned? You are taking anecdotal, observational "evidence" based on personal experience that could be influenced by any number of factors not related to what you're claiming and extrapolating something that's not necessarily true based on scientific evidence.
In fact, in controlled lab studies, a slight fat loss advantage went to low fat diets, not low carb diets, though over time, they perform roughly equally.
You keep making claims about keto that are unfounded.
Lest anyone get me wrong here, I am not anti-keto. I am against promoting false information regarding it, and you keep trying to make it superior in some ways in order to promote it. Why?
Why can't it simply be a valid choice and preference for some people?
It is a diet of choice, but for some it also improves their health.
Conversely, why can't you accept that?
As for my "claims", the FASTER study did have a slightly elevated caloric burn. Very slight. It was not a long term study so we don't know if it falls off to zero or not. Also, when many people switch to keto, their macro nutrients change and they eat more protein which is thermogenic. I've had many "non-anti-keto'ers remind me that keto'ers may just be benefiting from extra protein. It's true. It's still keto and still a slightly faster weight loss.
And then there is my n=1. I lost slightly faster than expected, about 2-3 lbs per week on a 1500 kcal diet while sedentary. I expected to lose about 1.5 lbs a week.
It is not a huge benefit, and not everyone experiences it but it is a small increase. For some.
Perhaps others may lose faster at vegan or paleo or SAD at a deficit...
I won't bother responding to the others who addressed me since it was basically the same thing.
I don't have a bunch of studies book marked for people. Here's a bunch of LCHF studies. https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/23-studies-on-low-carb-and-low-fat-diets#section1
Some deal with people eating naturally less. People lost more on a LCHF diet in these studies. I am sure there are others out there that show people lost more when not LCHF. That's why I said some people and not all people.
You moved the goal posts bringing in health which was never part of your argument in the first place, and that is a silly argument to introduce because saying keto is something that NEEDS to be used for health only applies to a very small handful of people with intractable insulin resistance like you.
Most people, including diabetics, can improve their health with weight loss. Diabetics don't need to low carb, they can just manage their carbs. Keto can be a choice, but it doesn't HAVE to be. This is down to preference. Which is all I am saying.
To the main point, moving your cherry picked resource of poorly conducted studies aside, every study that equates for calories AND protein (yes, it's the TEF of protein, not the magic of keto) shows equal weight loss over time.
Your desperation to show some superiority for keto is just laughable at this point.
I find your aggressive rudeness quite funny, myself.
I am not saying that keto is the best nor will it benefit everyone.
Yes, I added it can improve some people's health to the statement that the ketogenic diet is a diet of choice (all of them are except in isolated areas or those who live in poverty). I (apparently unfortunately) did not expand upon that enough to say that most people who choose to stick with it do so because of the benefits. Most won't skip out on tasty foods, and restrict their diets, unless they have too. It was not an outrageous or false statement.
Your problem is that it did not address the OP's original question? Those few words were too far off topic?
Yes, I know diabetics can improve their health with weight loss. Never said it didn't... I don't believe I brought insulin resistance up, or argued against anything you said. Your nit-picking is getting old.
It's become tedious to read over and over how keto is not magic when no said it was. I generally only answer threads with questions about keto but I keep seeing this over and over, and from the same people over and over. Typing "yes, I know" or "I never wrote that" in threads where we cross (and always a keto thread - go figure) is tiresome. I doubt I'll respond to your comments anymore.
Best of luck in the future.12 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Please explain how there are slightly elevated calories burned? You are taking anecdotal, observational "evidence" based on personal experience that could be influenced by any number of factors not related to what you're claiming and extrapolating something that's not necessarily true based on scientific evidence.
In fact, in controlled lab studies, a slight fat loss advantage went to low fat diets, not low carb diets, though over time, they perform roughly equally.
You keep making claims about keto that are unfounded.
Lest anyone get me wrong here, I am not anti-keto. I am against promoting false information regarding it, and you keep trying to make it superior in some ways in order to promote it. Why?
Why can't it simply be a valid choice and preference for some people?
It is a diet of choice, but for some it also improves their health.
Conversely, why can't you accept that?
As for my "claims", the FASTER study did have a slightly elevated caloric burn. Very slight. It was not a long term study so we don't know if it falls off to zero or not. Also, when many people switch to keto, their macro nutrients change and they eat more protein which is thermogenic. I've had many "non-anti-keto'ers remind me that keto'ers may just be benefiting from extra protein. It's true. It's still keto and still a slightly faster weight loss.
And then there is my n=1. I lost slightly faster than expected, about 2-3 lbs per week on a 1500 kcal diet while sedentary. I expected to lose about 1.5 lbs a week.
It is not a huge benefit, and not everyone experiences it but it is a small increase. For some.
Perhaps others may lose faster at vegan or paleo or SAD at a deficit...
I won't bother responding to the others who addressed me since it was basically the same thing.
I don't have a bunch of studies book marked for people. Here's a bunch of LCHF studies. https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/23-studies-on-low-carb-and-low-fat-diets#section1
Some deal with people eating naturally less. People lost more on a LCHF diet in these studies. I am sure there are others out there that show people lost more when not LCHF. That's why I said some people and not all people.
You moved the goal posts bringing in health which was never part of your argument in the first place, and that is a silly argument to introduce because saying keto is something that NEEDS to be used for health only applies to a very small handful of people with intractable insulin resistance like you.
Most people, including diabetics, can improve their health with weight loss. Diabetics don't need to low carb, they can just manage their carbs. Keto can be a choice, but it doesn't HAVE to be. This is down to preference. Which is all I am saying.
To the main point, moving your cherry picked resource of poorly conducted studies aside, every study that equates for calories AND protein (yes, it's the TEF of protein, not the magic of keto) shows equal weight loss over time.
Your desperation to show some superiority for keto is just laughable at this point.
I find your aggressive rudeness quite funny, myself.
I am not saying that keto is the best nor will it benefit everyone.
Yes, I added it can improve some people's health to the statement that the ketogenic diet is a diet of choice (all of them are except in isolated areas or those who live in poverty). I (apparently unfortunately) did not expand upon that enough to say that most people who choose to stick with it do so because of the benefits. Most won't skip out on tasty foods, and restrict their diets, unless they have too. It was not an outrageous or false statement.
Your problem is that it did not address the OP's original question? Those few words were too far off topic?
Yes, I know diabetics can improve their health with weight loss. Never said it didn't... I don't believe I brought insulin resistance up, or argued against anything you said. Your nit-picking is getting old.
It's become tedious to read over and over how keto is not magic when no said it was. I generally only answer threads with questions about keto but I keep seeing this over and over, and from the same people over and over. Typing "yes, I know" or "I never wrote that" in threads where we cross (and always a keto thread - go figure) is tiresome. I doubt I'll respond to your comments anymore.
Best of luck in the future.
That won't stop me from pointing out your outrageous claims.
If you keep making statements along the lines of "increased calorie burning", I will continue to point them out.
As for me popping up in keto/low carb threads, you forget that I have a history of having low carbed in the past for far longer than you have currently been eating this way. And I never once had high carb foods while I ate low carb for those ten years.
I think I can speak to people's questions on the issue of sustainability.
Furthermore, I find it downright pathetic that you were left with nothing but an ad hominem attack in your arsenal to use against me. Calling your attempts to boost keto's status laughable isn't an attack on you personally. It's arguing your opinions. You've already lost the debate when you resort to insulting your opponent instead of their position.
The fact remains that you can't substantiate your claim of "increased calorie burning".17 -
janejellyroll wrote: »xhunter561 wrote: »I see no reason to restrict an entire macro (which I personally would not be able to sustain) when I can just count calories and eat what I enjoy.
Calories all the way.
your not completely restricting them. your just removing basically all the simple carbs and keeping the complex ones.
mmapags: sense being on keto i have been doing a average of 30 to 40 mile runs each week when it's not sleeting, having over time, or just being busy.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/11/151117091234.htm one study but note that it was a test of high carb against keto BUT they used athletic adults on both.
http://sci-fit.net/2017/ketogenic-diet-fat-muscle-performance/#Keto_and_athletic_performance is another interesting one
but as for keto and endurance from a personal stand point using fat as a primary source of energy helps a lot, reduces burnouts, and you can just keep going and going till your legs start hurting or you get bored. but this can differ between people and their genetics and if they work better with high carb or high fat or those that cycle carbs just before a workout and cycle low to no carbs in their rest. I personally don't do go with any type of high carb diets (mainly referring to fruit only diets and vegan diets, both of which made me sick) But keto is just one type and there are going to be those that it will not help at all its just a thing of figuring out what your body works best with.
I wasn't aware that keto didn't allow simple carbohydrates -- I thought sometimes people ate berries on keto?
By the way, veganism wouldn't be classified as a high carbohydrate diet by definition. It can -- like a non-vegan diet -- be high in carbohydrates. But there are also vegans who do moderate carbohydrate or even low carbohydrate. I'm not sure how veganism -- in and of itself -- could have made you ill, although it's certainly possible for vegans (like non-vegans) to eat a diet that doesn't meet their nutritional needs and/or leads to illness.
I was a vegan for 3 years (about 20 years ago). Everything I ate was a plant or plant derivative: fruit, vegetable or legume, nuts. How can a vegan diet NOT be high carbohydrate? Is the person subsisting on olive oil? peanut butter?? avocados? What does a moderate or lo carb vegan diet look like?0 -
lucerorojo wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »xhunter561 wrote: »I see no reason to restrict an entire macro (which I personally would not be able to sustain) when I can just count calories and eat what I enjoy.
Calories all the way.
your not completely restricting them. your just removing basically all the simple carbs and keeping the complex ones.
mmapags: sense being on keto i have been doing a average of 30 to 40 mile runs each week when it's not sleeting, having over time, or just being busy.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/11/151117091234.htm one study but note that it was a test of high carb against keto BUT they used athletic adults on both.
http://sci-fit.net/2017/ketogenic-diet-fat-muscle-performance/#Keto_and_athletic_performance is another interesting one
but as for keto and endurance from a personal stand point using fat as a primary source of energy helps a lot, reduces burnouts, and you can just keep going and going till your legs start hurting or you get bored. but this can differ between people and their genetics and if they work better with high carb or high fat or those that cycle carbs just before a workout and cycle low to no carbs in their rest. I personally don't do go with any type of high carb diets (mainly referring to fruit only diets and vegan diets, both of which made me sick) But keto is just one type and there are going to be those that it will not help at all its just a thing of figuring out what your body works best with.
I wasn't aware that keto didn't allow simple carbohydrates -- I thought sometimes people ate berries on keto?
By the way, veganism wouldn't be classified as a high carbohydrate diet by definition. It can -- like a non-vegan diet -- be high in carbohydrates. But there are also vegans who do moderate carbohydrate or even low carbohydrate. I'm not sure how veganism -- in and of itself -- could have made you ill, although it's certainly possible for vegans (like non-vegans) to eat a diet that doesn't meet their nutritional needs and/or leads to illness.
I was a vegan for 3 years (about 20 years ago). Everything I ate was a plant or plant derivative: fruit, vegetable or legume, nuts. How can a vegan diet NOT be high carbohydrate? Is the person subsisting on olive oil? peanut butter?? avocados? What does a moderate or lo carb vegan diet look like?
A ketogenic vegan diet is tough but can be done. Vegetarian is somewhat easier... from what I understand. My diet is fairly animal product heavy so I have not tried this out.
Here are some links that the Low Carber Daily group put together for those who are interested in vegan or vegetarian very LCHF:
https://www.reddit.com/r/veganketo
http://www.healthfulpursuit.com/2015/04/video-low-carb-vegan-keto-plant-based/
http://veganhealth.org/
http://ketomotive.com/vegan-ketogenic-diet/
http://www.theketogenicdiet.org/low-carb-dieting-for-vegetarians-and-vegans-is-it-possible/
http://healthygamergirl.com/
http://www.theveganrd.com/
https://www.dietdoctor.com/new-vegetarian-meal-plan
https://www.dietdoctor.com/vegetarian-low-carb-keto-inspiration
https://www.reddit.com/r/vegetarianketo
http://ketodietapp.com/Blog/post/2015/07/05/2-week-vegetarian-keto-diet-plan
http://vegetarianketo.blogspot.com/
http://ketodietapp.com/Blog/post/2015/05/27/81-delicious-savory-low-carb-vegetarian-recipes
https://vegetarianketo.wordpress.com/
1 -
lucerorojo wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »xhunter561 wrote: »I see no reason to restrict an entire macro (which I personally would not be able to sustain) when I can just count calories and eat what I enjoy.
Calories all the way.
your not completely restricting them. your just removing basically all the simple carbs and keeping the complex ones.
mmapags: sense being on keto i have been doing a average of 30 to 40 mile runs each week when it's not sleeting, having over time, or just being busy.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/11/151117091234.htm one study but note that it was a test of high carb against keto BUT they used athletic adults on both.
http://sci-fit.net/2017/ketogenic-diet-fat-muscle-performance/#Keto_and_athletic_performance is another interesting one
but as for keto and endurance from a personal stand point using fat as a primary source of energy helps a lot, reduces burnouts, and you can just keep going and going till your legs start hurting or you get bored. but this can differ between people and their genetics and if they work better with high carb or high fat or those that cycle carbs just before a workout and cycle low to no carbs in their rest. I personally don't do go with any type of high carb diets (mainly referring to fruit only diets and vegan diets, both of which made me sick) But keto is just one type and there are going to be those that it will not help at all its just a thing of figuring out what your body works best with.
I wasn't aware that keto didn't allow simple carbohydrates -- I thought sometimes people ate berries on keto?
By the way, veganism wouldn't be classified as a high carbohydrate diet by definition. It can -- like a non-vegan diet -- be high in carbohydrates. But there are also vegans who do moderate carbohydrate or even low carbohydrate. I'm not sure how veganism -- in and of itself -- could have made you ill, although it's certainly possible for vegans (like non-vegans) to eat a diet that doesn't meet their nutritional needs and/or leads to illness.
I was a vegan for 3 years (about 20 years ago). Everything I ate was a plant or plant derivative: fruit, vegetable or legume, nuts. How can a vegan diet NOT be high carbohydrate? Is the person subsisting on olive oil? peanut butter?? avocados? What does a moderate or lo carb vegan diet look like?
Probably depends on how one is defining "high carb." You can certainly eat within the normally recommended range for carbs (which I wouldn't call high carb), while getting enough fat to be not low fat, and moderate (not low) protein, which is more along the lines of what I thought janejellyroll was talking about, not low carbing.1 -
lucerorojo wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »xhunter561 wrote: »I see no reason to restrict an entire macro (which I personally would not be able to sustain) when I can just count calories and eat what I enjoy.
Calories all the way.
your not completely restricting them. your just removing basically all the simple carbs and keeping the complex ones.
mmapags: sense being on keto i have been doing a average of 30 to 40 mile runs each week when it's not sleeting, having over time, or just being busy.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/11/151117091234.htm one study but note that it was a test of high carb against keto BUT they used athletic adults on both.
http://sci-fit.net/2017/ketogenic-diet-fat-muscle-performance/#Keto_and_athletic_performance is another interesting one
but as for keto and endurance from a personal stand point using fat as a primary source of energy helps a lot, reduces burnouts, and you can just keep going and going till your legs start hurting or you get bored. but this can differ between people and their genetics and if they work better with high carb or high fat or those that cycle carbs just before a workout and cycle low to no carbs in their rest. I personally don't do go with any type of high carb diets (mainly referring to fruit only diets and vegan diets, both of which made me sick) But keto is just one type and there are going to be those that it will not help at all its just a thing of figuring out what your body works best with.
I wasn't aware that keto didn't allow simple carbohydrates -- I thought sometimes people ate berries on keto?
By the way, veganism wouldn't be classified as a high carbohydrate diet by definition. It can -- like a non-vegan diet -- be high in carbohydrates. But there are also vegans who do moderate carbohydrate or even low carbohydrate. I'm not sure how veganism -- in and of itself -- could have made you ill, although it's certainly possible for vegans (like non-vegans) to eat a diet that doesn't meet their nutritional needs and/or leads to illness.
I was a vegan for 3 years (about 20 years ago). Everything I ate was a plant or plant derivative: fruit, vegetable or legume, nuts. How can a vegan diet NOT be high carbohydrate? Is the person subsisting on olive oil? peanut butter?? avocados? What does a moderate or lo carb vegan diet look like?
Vegan keto can be done if protein powder is used, I would think. Fats would come from avocado, nut butters, and you could have greens and olive oil to round out the diet and keep carbs to keto levels.
Vegetarian low carb would be a lot easier with eggs and dairy and keeping carbs around 100 or so net grams. I sometimes hit that just on days when I have a migraine naturally from not feeling well and having a low calorie allowance and wanting to eat all my veggies.0
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