Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
We're not responsible for being obese?
Options
Replies
-
.... Pain clinics sprang up, some regs were relaxed. Now we have an opioid crisis. Unrelated?...
Pain clinics are not the problem, and neither is the existence of opioids. The problem is abuse by people who use the drugs, then abuse them, then look for ways to feed their habits. It's the bad choices of the abusers that have caused the epidemic, not the existence of pain clinics.
Pain clinics use a variety of techniques to help people manage chronic pain: biofeedback, cognitive behavioral therapy, hypnotherapy, massage, meditation. They're not pill pushing stations and it does a disservice to those who work at pain clinics to blame them for the situation society finds itself in.16 -
Good_Morning_Glory wrote: »It would be so easy to blame my eighteen year drug addiction on oh let’s see, my father, my mother, society, social services, my ex and then my subsequent obesity as an after effect.
There’s only one person who is responsible here. That’s me. I look at it as Survival of the Fittest. No one made me use and no one made me stop. No one made me overeat and no one is making me stop. It’s up to ME.
+1
It may seem easier to blame others for your situation but at the end of the day the only power everyone else has over your life is what you give them. I'm glad you were able to take your power back and gain control.3 -
JillianRumrill wrote: »Basically: I'm not {overweight, jobless, balding, etc} I'm just a victim!...and not only that, the world has to change to suit MEEEEE, not the other way around!
Side note: A friend of mine lost her husband to painkillers/heroin. He wrecked his back on a construction job, doc handed the painkillers out like candy, he was so outta his mind that the doc just cut him off cold turkey, then he looked for an alternative- heroin...it wrecked their marriage, he ended up bouncing in/out of rehab, and eventually OD'd on a tainted batch of smack. This could've all been avoided if 1. The docs didn't just throw drugs at it and instead proscribed surgery/rehab 2. He admitted to having a drug problem! As my dad says: "It takes TWO to tango!"
At the risk of coming across as a cold hearted *kitten*, this still falls to personal responsibility. I could blame my dope dealer for my addiction but how would that lead to the necessary enlightenment needed for recovery?
3 -
JillianRumrill wrote: »Basically: I'm not {overweight, jobless, balding, etc} I'm just a victim!...and not only that, the world has to change to suit MEEEEE, not the other way around!
Side note: A friend of mine lost her husband to painkillers/heroin. He wrecked his back on a construction job, doc handed the painkillers out like candy, he was so outta his mind that the doc just cut him off cold turkey, then he looked for an alternative- heroin...it wrecked their marriage, he ended up bouncing in/out of rehab, and eventually OD'd on a tainted batch of smack. This could've all been avoided if 1. The docs didn't just throw drugs at it and instead proscribed surgery/rehab 2. He admitted to having a drug problem! As my dad says: "It takes TWO to tango!"
Easy to say if you have never been addicted. Esp with opioids, some of the more common drugs prescribed are qualitatively more powerful and more physically addictive than ever before. That can’t be dismissed, no matter how inconvenient it is for those who want simple solutions.
Addiction is a complex issue—physically, emotionally, behaviorally, etc. The cost to society is tremendous and dealing with it requires multifaceted interventions. Personal responsibility is one component, but to reduce it to only that is unproductive.11 -
I am over weight and it's nobody's fault but mine. Poor food choice, mindless snacking, and no portion control. All of these are things within my control.
I do not believe in fad diets so recently I pledged to myself to eat in moderation, stop snacking while driving, and layoff white rice, potatoes, and bread. I also substituted my go to morning muffin to a bowl of Harvest Crunch and the weekly calorie saving are 1000+.
Blaming the people who make the junk food is just another excuse.11 -
JillianRumrill wrote: »Basically: I'm not {overweight, jobless, balding, etc} I'm just a victim!...and not only that, the world has to change to suit MEEEEE, not the other way around!
Side note: A friend of mine lost her husband to painkillers/heroin. He wrecked his back on a construction job, doc handed the painkillers out like candy, he was so outta his mind that the doc just cut him off cold turkey, then he looked for an alternative- heroin...it wrecked their marriage, he ended up bouncing in/out of rehab, and eventually OD'd on a tainted batch of smack. This could've all been avoided if 1. The docs didn't just throw drugs at it and instead proscribed surgery/rehab 2. He admitted to having a drug problem! As my dad says: "It takes TWO to tango!"
Easy to say if you have never been addicted. Esp with opioids, some of the more common drugs prescribed are qualitatively more powerful and more physically addictive than ever before. That can’t be dismissed, no matter how inconvenient it is for those who want simple solutions.
Addiction is a complex issue—physically, emotionally, behaviorally, etc. The cost to society is tremendous and dealing with it requires multifaceted interventions. Personal responsibility is one component, but to reduce it to only that is unproductive.
I am going to have to disagree. All the intervention on the planet isn’t going to stop an addict from using. On the other hand, all the intervention on the planet isn’t going to stop an addict from recovery. It takes personal choices and personal responsibility.
I agree it’s a tremendous drain. Policy for reform is *kitten* up.
As a recovering addict, I’m in a bit of a unique position here. I MOSTLY know (eighteen years of spending lots of ‘quality time’ with other addicts) where the mindset is in the case of an active user. I say let natural selection take its course instead of throwing good money after bad. Is that the right way to term that quote?
The obesity crisis is a bit of a parallel situation.
It’s going to take personal responsibility and personal change. Yes get help. But there will come a time (multiple times of intervention and draining the system) in which it’s going to take personal responsibility and the realization that it takes YOU doing the work. The system can only help so much.
5 -
.... Pain clinics sprang up, some regs were relaxed. Now we have an opioid crisis. Unrelated?...
Pain clinics are not the problem, and neither is the existence of opioids. The problem is abuse by people who use the drugs, then abuse them, then look for ways to feed their habits. It's the bad choices of the abusers that have caused the epidemic, not the existence of pain clinics.
Pain clinics use a variety of techniques to help people manage chronic pain: biofeedback, cognitive behavioral therapy, hypnotherapy, massage, meditation. They're not pill pushing stations and it does a disservice to those who work at pain clinics to blame them for the situation society finds itself in.
I think I've not clearly communicated what I think (but your initial ellipsis does serve your point better than it fairly presents mine).
I believe in pain clinics, and know first-hand about the importance of non-drug modalities (I've benefitted). At the same time, I strongly support appropriate availability of opioid drugs for acute, chronic or terminal-illness pain.
I was grateful that when my 45 y/o husband was in profound pain, dying in our living room of esophageal cancer, I had access to ample Fentanyl patches, plus additional liquid opioids I could administer through his stomach tube, because all of this was happening after the crazy-tight rein on opioids had been relaxed.
My point was the pendulum swings in public opinion and how those drive policy, how we collectively contribute to that via our individual opinions and actions. We often get the system we clamor for, and it has unintended consequences. Our clamor is a relevant causal factor.
Out of the anti-drug extremes of the post WW2 period (roughly), when people with severe pain were cruelly undertreated, came a liberalizing swing in the other direction, which brought solutions (such as mainstream pain clinics). But it also introduced a willingness across our medical systems to be generous with pain drugs because "people with pain don't become addicted". (@lemurcat12 posted insightfully about that, quite a few posts above). It also brought the reflex over-prescribing of strong drugs for routine pain that some others above have described.
And, yes, the drug companies whipped the horses pulling that bandwagon when they could, partly cynically, partly because individuals in those companies shared the common perspective that pain drugs should be widely available for compassionate reasons, while underestimating risks. (Corporations are "us", too, as "we" are employees and shareholders (individually or through institutions like unions, etc.) as wel as customers.)
That liberalizing pendulum swing brought us where we are now, with too many opioid deaths, too much opioid addiction, and leaving me (and others) concerned that hysterical over-correction, fueled in part by public outrage, may again leave people in unnecessary pain through too-tight restriction.
That was my point: That we, in the form of "society," drive these swings in significant measure, as well as being harmed by them at the extremes (becoming their "victims", if we must use that term).
Again, repeating Walt Kelly's Pogo: " We have met the enemy, and he is us." <<<<<==== Main point.
You, @vingogly, didn't say/imply this next bit, but others did - and I am changing sub-topics here:
I'm not very sympathetic to the idea that we first-world moderns have uniquely meaningless lives, and that that's a reason/excuse for addiction. It's a simple explanation, therefore likely incomplete at best.
I suspect my peasant ancestors, sleeping in insect-ridden hovels and scrabbling for food while half their babies died in infancy, had pretty meaningless lives. Perhaps that mere struggle to survive and breed brought sufficient meaning and purpose to their lives, but few among us would trade our easier "meaningless" lives for their lot in life.
They didn't expect much expect "self actualization", I'd speculate. They didn't expect a fulfilling job or a comfortable life. Perhaps it's that we modern first-worlders came to implicitly expect that life would deliver, to our increasingly passive spectator selves, not only a higher-than-peasant-level standard of living, but also purpose and meaning.
But I admit I haven't thought about that part very much. Speaking only for myself now, I find purpose and meaning overrated.
13 -
.... Pain clinics sprang up, some regs were relaxed. Now we have an opioid crisis. Unrelated?...
Pain clinics are not the problem, and neither is the existence of opioids. The problem is abuse by people who use the drugs, then abuse them, then look for ways to feed their habits. It's the bad choices of the abusers that have caused the epidemic, not the existence of pain clinics.
Pain clinics use a variety of techniques to help people manage chronic pain: biofeedback, cognitive behavioral therapy, hypnotherapy, massage, meditation. They're not pill pushing stations and it does a disservice to those who work at pain clinics to blame them for the situation society finds itself in.
I agree with this.
@AnnPT77 I’d hope that if I were in a terminal situation, I’d have access to opiates. I’ll be honest, there are situations in which it has its place. I’m so sorry for your loss.
1 -
While I agree that there is some government responsibility to help educate people I 100% believe that we are responsible for our OWN actions. I gained 25 lbs. during my pregnancy, but no one made me gain more weight or kept me from losing the weight but myself and my own choices. It was my own stupid decisions.2
-
Good_Morning_Glory wrote: ».... Pain clinics sprang up, some regs were relaxed. Now we have an opioid crisis. Unrelated?...
Pain clinics are not the problem, and neither is the existence of opioids. The problem is abuse by people who use the drugs, then abuse them, then look for ways to feed their habits. It's the bad choices of the abusers that have caused the epidemic, not the existence of pain clinics.
Pain clinics use a variety of techniques to help people manage chronic pain: biofeedback, cognitive behavioral therapy, hypnotherapy, massage, meditation. They're not pill pushing stations and it does a disservice to those who work at pain clinics to blame them for the situation society finds itself in.
I agree with this.
@AnnPT77 I’d hope that if I were in a terminal situation, I’d have access to opiates. I’ll be honest, there are situations in which it has its place. I’m so sorry for your loss.
With the way the pendulum is swinging, you may not.3 -
Again, I think some people are conflating two different types of questions.
Do you have a problem (whether with drugs or obesity or something else)? Best to realize you can do something about it and take control, of course.
Can we, as "society" make choices that will affect how common particular problems are? And, if so, is that worth discussing and understanding? IMO, yes to that too.5 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Again, I think some people are conflating two different types of questions.
Do you have a problem (whether with drugs or obesity or something else)? Best to realize you can do something about it and take control, of course.
Can we, as "society" make choices that will affect how common particular problems are? And, if so, is that worth discussing and understanding? IMO, yes to that too.
Yeah, I don't feel we have the stark "either/or" situation here that (some) posts seem to be referencing.4 -
Good_Morning_Glory wrote: ».... Pain clinics sprang up, some regs were relaxed. Now we have an opioid crisis. Unrelated?...
Pain clinics are not the problem, and neither is the existence of opioids. The problem is abuse by people who use the drugs, then abuse them, then look for ways to feed their habits. It's the bad choices of the abusers that have caused the epidemic, not the existence of pain clinics.
Pain clinics use a variety of techniques to help people manage chronic pain: biofeedback, cognitive behavioral therapy, hypnotherapy, massage, meditation. They're not pill pushing stations and it does a disservice to those who work at pain clinics to blame them for the situation society finds itself in.
I agree with this.
@AnnPT77 I’d hope that if I were in a terminal situation, I’d have access to opiates. I’ll be honest, there are situations in which it has its place. I’m so sorry for your loss.
I should've said explicitly: I mostly agree with @vingogly's point, too. I certainly do about pain clinics!
I wouldn't go quite as far in the "all the abuser's fault" direction as I'm perceiving you each going. I think it's a complicated , multifactor situation, of which abusers' will and character is one factor - and I believe that each of our characters are both in our control, and shaped by things outside our control. Nothing is simple!
Thank you for the sympathy . . . but I hope you can understand that I mentioned it to sharpen my point that my concern about pain drugs is far from theoretical, much like your experience with addiction.
Past is past, now. We are here, not there.
0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Again, I think some people are conflating two different types of questions.
Do you have a problem (whether with drugs or obesity or something else)? Best to realize you can do something about it and take control, of course.
Can we, as "society" make choices that will affect how common particular problems are? And, if so, is that worth discussing and understanding? IMO, yes to that too.
I 100% agree with both pieces.
Pithy summation from you, as is so often the case.
Thanks for that - and for that earlier bit of history from econtalk, too, BTW.1 -
I don’t think it’s an either/or, myself. They both happen to be related in my situation. Whether or not there is someone or something to blame regarding addiction AND obesity. I’ve experience with both. Turns out it was all me lol.
I don’t think it’s a ‘fault’ situation. I was just sharing what I know in regards to whether or not we can or should place blame elsewhere. I’m only going on my own education and experience regarding both obesity and addiction. Different situations produce differing reactions. It’s relative.
I’m so glad I’m neither using nor obese these days. Farther from the using than the obesity though. Work in progress. 4 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Again, I think some people are conflating two different types of questions.
Do you have a problem (whether with drugs or obesity or something else)? Best to realize you can do something about it and take control, of course.
Can we, as "society" make choices that will affect how common particular problems are? And, if so, is that worth discussing and understanding? IMO, yes to that too.
Thank you. I keep reading replies thinking to myself... "There's plenty of blame/responsibility to go around, on both sides of the issue" and thought I was missing something.0 -
The only "choice" made in drug addiction is the choice to use the drug in the first place. Because physiological addiction is an overriding demand that the brain convinces the body that it MUST HAVE the drug or the person will die. It's a compulsion far beyond good or bad choices.
And opioids are really addictive. But pain is really awful, too. So we play a dangerous game of roulette with addiction. It turns out the gamble was built on a poor premise. "If you're in pain you can't get addicted" was wrong. It was biochemically wrong. The receptors in your nervous system are altered by the presence of opioids. We are only in the infancy of understanding the neurobiology of this but it appears that opioids act in a widely distributed manner throughout the brain, activating multiple pathways.
Yes, addicts can make choices that will make staying away from the addictive substances more possible (I hesitate to say "easier"). But once you're addicted, your brain is going to tell you that you need that drug or you will die. It doesn't matter how rationally untrue you know this to be. It becomes one of the most compelling biological drives.
And yet, again, pain is tremendously bad. Chronic pain can make life difficult or even impossible. The prescription of opiods for pain was, I believe, rooted in compassion and a lack of good alternatives.
11 -
Good_Morning_Glory wrote: »JillianRumrill wrote: »Basically: I'm not {overweight, jobless, balding, etc} I'm just a victim!...and not only that, the world has to change to suit MEEEEE, not the other way around!
Side note: A friend of mine lost her husband to painkillers/heroin. He wrecked his back on a construction job, doc handed the painkillers out like candy, he was so outta his mind that the doc just cut him off cold turkey, then he looked for an alternative- heroin...it wrecked their marriage, he ended up bouncing in/out of rehab, and eventually OD'd on a tainted batch of smack. This could've all been avoided if 1. The docs didn't just throw drugs at it and instead proscribed surgery/rehab 2. He admitted to having a drug problem! As my dad says: "It takes TWO to tango!"
Easy to say if you have never been addicted. Esp with opioids, some of the more common drugs prescribed are qualitatively more powerful and more physically addictive than ever before. That can’t be dismissed, no matter how inconvenient it is for those who want simple solutions.
Addiction is a complex issue—physically, emotionally, behaviorally, etc. The cost to society is tremendous and dealing with it requires multifaceted interventions. Personal responsibility is one component, but to reduce it to only that is unproductive.
I am going to have to disagree. All the intervention on the planet isn’t going to stop an addict from using. On the other hand, all the intervention on the planet isn’t going to stop an addict from recovery. It takes personal choices and personal responsibility.
I agree it’s a tremendous drain. Policy for reform is *kitten* up.
As a recovering addict, I’m in a bit of a unique position here. I MOSTLY know (eighteen years of spending lots of ‘quality time’ with other addicts) where the mindset is in the case of an active user. I say let natural selection take its course instead of throwing good money after bad. Is that the right way to term that quote?
The obesity crisis is a bit of a parallel situation.
It’s going to take personal responsibility and personal change. Yes get help. But there will come a time (multiple times of intervention and draining the system) in which it’s going to take personal responsibility and the realization that it takes YOU doing the work. The system can only help so much.
I suspect the more we discussed this topic, we would agree more than disagree. As in most of these discussion, we are emphasizing those aspects of the issue we feel are most important. That emphasis doesn’t mean I don’t disagree entirely with your thoughts.
I would just say that, from my reference point, in the long run, the cost of non-intevention is much, much higher than “throwing the good money” at a very, very difficult problem. Not everything can be solved by “willing” it to be so.2 -
I am normally not a big conspiracy person, and I am not an expert on this subject by any means. But with the opioid epidemic, I do think there have been some larger forces at work that make this more than a “weak people making bad choices” issue.
Here is one story for reference: http://www.businessinsider.com/opioid-crisis-conspiracy-2017-9
I also don’t think you can make the blanket assertion that because Person X was able to “recover” from their addiction, and Person Y was not, Person X is automatically “better” and Person Y is a weak person who deserves their fate. Some people are just broken. I completely understand if you are a friend or a family member and you get to the point where you just have to cut the person off. I have never had to live for extended periods with someone who was addicted (my sister died two years ago of conditions associated with opioid overuse, but she was a recluse who I only communicated with a few times in the last 25 years). I can imagine if you have that first-hand experience, you might have a different view. But I also think that, as a society, we can take a larger view and continue to work to improve things, even if it seems hopeless at times.4 -
I never said that anyone who isn’t able to overcome addiction is weak or deserves their fate. I don’t think I’m better than the people I care about who are still out there using. I just didn’t have any more blame to give or excuses to make. I’m no better than anyone. No worse either.
Edited to say: Again I only shared my experience and education to stand by my conviction that there is no one to blame for something that I did to myself. And I’m not alone.2
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 391.4K Introduce Yourself
- 43.5K Getting Started
- 259.7K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.6K Food and Nutrition
- 47.3K Recipes
- 232.3K Fitness and Exercise
- 390 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.4K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 152.7K Motivation and Support
- 7.8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.2K MyFitnessPal Information
- 22 News and Announcements
- 922 Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.3K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions