Need advice from vegans: How much protein do I really need to be consuming.... REALLY??
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Shugahhfatt wrote: »protein is the scam of the century 45 to 60 is more then enough...dont fall for this high protein non sense
If you're sitting on your *kitten* all day it is. Not if you want to gain muscle. Or lose weight. Or are old. Or...12 -
Excluding any deleterious health problems, it's probably more prudent to get more than too little, regardless of the source.
The following quote is taken from this study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5772850/Dietary protein, muscle, and healthy aging
Protein nutrition is an important component of the diet of older individuals. Protein is an essential nutrient; thus, at least a minimal amount of protein intake is necessary to support healthy living. However, older individuals are at high risk of insufficient protein intake, most probably as a consequence of aging malnutrition and anabolic resistance in aged muscle [70]. Furthermore, concomitant inflammation observed in chronic diseases leads to protein degradation and reduced skeletal muscle protein synthesis (MPS) and, consequently, to higher protein requirements [71]. Therefore, the current recommended dietary allowance (RDA) for protein of 0.8 grams of protein per kilogram of body mass per day might not be adequate for maintaining muscle and bone health in old age [72]. Recent research has provided evidence of the additional benefits of a greater dietary protein intake (i.e., 1.5 g/kg body mass/day) beyond the prevention of sarcopenia [73], most relevant in both the genesis of and recovery from fractures [74, 75]. Still, one of the major issues regarding protein intake is identifying how proteins derived from animal and plant sources differ in their capacity to enhance immunity in elderly people and how much protein is needed as the combination of exercise and protein ingestion has a positive, often synergistic effect on MPS [76-78].
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Americans in general have no lack of protein in their diet and virtually never need to worry about not getting enough, barring certain medical conditions. In fact some should to cut back on their protein levels due to kidney disease or other conditions.
The WHO did extensive studies on the minimum amounts of protein men and women need (men need more) and it is far lower than even the minimums you find recommended generally on the internet.
If you are female and get 30-40 grams of protein a day you are highly unlikely to ever suffer serious deficiency. To be perfectly safe, get 50 grams a day. But if you only get 40 you are likely perfectly fine. The US RDA is as high as it is to be absolutely sure no one ever suffers a protein deficiency but in fact most people don't even need that much.10 -
janejellyroll wrote: »dragthewaters1991 wrote: »You don't have to worry nearly as much about protein as people say you do. There are raw vegans who have eaten nothing but fruits, vegetables, nuts, and seeds for years and they haven't gotten "protein deficiency." Kwashiorkor (protein deficiency) happens in famine situations where people are getting very little of ANY food, and the little food they are getting is low in protein such as rice. I haven't heard of any cases of people getting "protein deficiency" while eating a plentiful Western vegan diet. However, if you are concerned about it, the vegan protein powder isn't going to kill you, especially if you're only eating it for as long as you're dieting. Sure it's not as healthy as eating whole foods but it's fine.
I eat a mostly plant-based diet. I do have (on average) two eggs per day, and yesterday I also decided to add back in one serving of dairy per day, but the rest is vegan (and some days are entirely vegan). My daily protein has generally been in the 80-100g per day range for 2000-2100 calories, and that's without any protein powder, protein bars, etc. It's not something I'm concerned about at all.
There are also dozens and dozens of former raw vegans who quit veganism because they felt ill or weak or developed health problems. You can feel unwell, weak, or just under the weather due to low protein intake well before a clinical protein deficiency sets in. Using a diagnosed protein deficiency as the baseline for vegan wellness does new vegans a profound disservice. We owe them better than advice that is designed to keep them just above the baseline for medical intervention.
Surely our goal should involve thriving,a feeling of wellness, and lean muscle mass growth/retention, not just avoiding an official diagnosis of protein deficiency?
When you say consuming protein powder isn't as healthy as eating whole foods, what do you mean? What specific health problems are you concerned with and what data is that based on?
Well the problem with veganism isn't generally protein deficiency. Americans are crazy about believing they need huge amounts of protein. Veganism has a host of other problems the sufferers of this unnatural lifestyle generally suffer. The most common problems are lack of sufficient fat (yes, you need fat in your diet to process many vitamins), lack of iron, and lack of b12. Protein is available from many plant sources, but iron is only easily bio available from meats, even though it is present in some vegetables.
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I am WFPB, based on my height I should get about 42g of protein a day. The calculation of what you need is 0.37g per pound of body weight @ your ideal weight. If you are trying to lose weight you would calculate based on your goal weight not current weight.
I rarely miss my protein target, I eat about 1.5 cups of beans per day, 1/8 to 1/4 cup of seeds, lots of greens and other fruits and veggies. I shoot for 1.5-2 cups of whole grains a day.
I don’t do protein powders, I prefer to stick with Whole Foods. You could add some white beans to a smoothie and not see a difference in taste. I use white beans often as the base for dressings.4 -
PrincessTinyheart wrote: »Wow, there's been a lot of information shared here.... Sorry for not responding to everyone but I'll try to summarize...
I feel great physically and mentally on my existing diet - energetic, no digestive issues or known health issues at all. I have a fairly active lifestyle.... I have a desk job but walk around frequently. I also go to the gym 2 times a week for weight training and P90X classes and belly dance 1 - 2 hours a week on average (this past weekend I belly danced for 10 hours.... not 10 hours straight, of course
). I also throw a pole dancing class in there a few times a month.Typical woman-in-midlife-crisis exercise routine.
I personally don't have a problem with protein powders but I keep hearing from all of these sources that say you should avoid processed foods whenever possible.... but I am getting better at eating raw or cooking at home and using whole ingredients, so if I can strive for "continuous improvement" instead of trying to be 100% perfect, maybe I'll be fine.
The sources that are telling you to avoid processed foods whenever possible are ironically benefitting from a modern, industrialized food market, that allows them to get fresh food that is out of season locally (or would not thrive at all locally outside of a greenhouse). Most of the people in most parts of the world throughout human history haven't had the luxury of turning up their noses at food that was dried, smoked, salted, fermented, or otherwise processed so it would still be edible when fresh food was scarce or unavailable. Cooking also makes some nutrients more available in some foods, so insisting on eating them raw because it's "healthier" is just wrong-headed.
Sure, read labels on processed food to see if stuff you don't want to eat has been added, or if parts of the foods that you want to eat have been removed, but a blanket restriction on processed food, especially when accompanied by the implication of moral superiority that so many of those "sources" impose on the avoidance of processed foods is unjustifiable.
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That’s my struggle is well I find it so hard but I’m trying to add more beans and more food with more protein and less powder0
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lemurcat12 wrote: »
That's not a protein *isolate* which is what is in commercial powders. That's just roasted blended peas.
Also once again I never said protein powders are *BAD* just because they are processed in my initial post. In fact I said the opposite, I said they are fine. I don't know why everyone is intent on putting words in my mouth. But OP seemed to want to avoid processed foods due to health concerns which is why I even mentioned that.
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dragthewaters1991 wrote: »You don't have to worry nearly as much about protein as people say you do. There are raw vegans who have eaten nothing but fruits, vegetables, nuts, and seeds for years and they haven't gotten "protein deficiency." Kwashiorkor (protein deficiency) happens in famine situations where people are getting very little of ANY food, and the little food they are getting is low in protein such as rice. I haven't heard of any cases of people getting "protein deficiency" while eating a plentiful Western vegan diet. However, if you are concerned about it, the vegan protein powder isn't going to kill you, especially if you're only eating it for as long as you're dieting. Sure it's not as healthy as eating whole foods but it's fine.
I eat a mostly plant-based diet. I do have (on average) two eggs per day, and yesterday I also decided to add back in one serving of dairy per day, but the rest is vegan (and some days are entirely vegan). My daily protein has generally been in the 80-100g per day range for 2000-2100 calories, and that's without any protein powder, protein bars, etc. It's not something I'm concerned about at all.
The OP is trying to increase her protein intake on a much lower calorie goal. Protein is important to maintain muscle mass while in a deficit. This post doesn’t really address the OP’s situation.3 -
dragthewaters1991 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
That's not a protein *isolate* which is what is in commercial powders. That's just roasted blended peas.
Also once again I never said protein powders are *BAD* just because they are processed in my initial post. In fact I said the opposite, I said they are fine. I don't know why everyone is intent on putting words in my mouth. But OP seemed to want to avoid processed foods due to health concerns which is why I even mentioned that.
you specifically all out industrial processing.
There is nothing inherently wrong with industrial. Industrial simply means on a larger, more robust scale- it doesn't make it bad.
you can't move the goal posts around and then blame other people for "putting words in your mouth"."dragthewaters1991 wrote: »You're going to die of something anyway- I fail to see the level of concern here.
secondly- that's not what the article says exactly.
specifically it says long term impact hasn't been established.Their impact on long-term health may not have been fully established and they cannot be assumed to be without risk.
so- incorrect.
Now you're just arguing with me for the sake of arguing with me. If you don't care what you eat or how long you live then why are you even on MFP?
I am not- the article you claimed said X- doesn't say X. I'm merely pointing out a mistake you made.
As for your second part- forgive me for being a little nihilistic- but the time I have here- is the time I have. I want to make the best of it even if it's trivial and temporal. I use MFP because I want to make sure I stay in good weight (replacing all your wardrobe from weight flux is expensive) but being said-my health markers are fine- I believe in better living through chemistry- so I'll go ahead eating chemicals and processed things I don't' believe have a truly adverse impact on me- certainly not in the meager 60ish years I have on this earth.
Can't be bothered to worry about 1-2 years extra if it means I miss out on oreos. eff that. it's called perspective- maybe you might go to walmart and pick some up?
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dragthewaters1991 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
That's not a protein *isolate* which is what is in commercial powders. That's just roasted blended peas.
Also once again I never said protein powders are *BAD* just because they are processed in my initial post. In fact I said the opposite, I said they are fine. I don't know why everyone is intent on putting words in my mouth. But OP seemed to want to avoid processed foods due to health concerns which is why I even mentioned that.
Not all commercial powders use isolate, not that there's any evidence-based harm with isolate. Here's the ingredients from the main powder I use (it's a meal replacer, so it has more ingredients than a powder that just has protein).
PEA PROTEIN, FLAXSEED, ORGANIC ACACIA GUM, PEA STARCH, HEMP PROTEIN, SACHA INCHI PROTEIN, ORGANIC GELATINIZED MACA ROOT, ORGANIC BROCCOLI, INULIN (FROM CHICORY ROOT), ORGANIC SPIRULINA NATURAL FLAVORS, DRIED FRUIT AND VEGETABLE BLEND (NUTRIENTS EXTRACTED FROM SPINACH BROCCOLI, CARROT, BEET, TOMATO, APPLE, CRANBERRY, ORANGE, CHERRY, BLUEBERRY, STRAWBERRY, SHITAKE MUSHROOM), ORGANIC KALE, ORGANIC MARINE ALGAE, PROBIOTICS (BACILLUS COAGULANS), CHLORELLA VULGARIS, PAPAIN, SILICON DIOXIDE, DRIED FRUIT BLEND (GRAPE SEED EXTRACT, ORGANIC POMEGRANATE, ACAI, MANGOSTEEN, ORGANIC GOJI, ORGANIC MAQUI)
As for taking a whole food and removing parts of it and consuming a partial product...we've been doing that for much of our history. Wheat gluten has been consumed since the 6th century, and under goes a similar process.3 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »dragthewaters1991 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »On the not as healthy as "whole foods" thing, is this a reason to give up tofu and tempeh (eat only edamame)? To give up nut milks (except for the kind that contains the whole nut, which my homemade cashew milk does, but most do not, not even homemade almond milks normally)?
I would agree that a diet largely made up of highly processed foods and thus low in fiber isn't ideal and it's important to include a variety of whole foods, especially since that basically means eat things like produce and beans/lentils and grains (which aren't really whole foods, of course), and -- if one eats meat, which OP does not, meat. But it does not follow that including any processed foods is bad or that a diet is better if it's 100% whole foods, and convenience can be important. The idea that eating some pea protein with oats and fruit and having veg on sides=bad but eating sufficient peas to get the same amount of protein is great (even if you prefer the oats and veg and fruit to peas) makes no sense to me, and I don't think any nutrition expert worth their salt would say that's what they mean.
Those are wildly different levels of processing. You could make tofu, tempeh, and nut/soy milks at home, if you wanted to. In fact, people have done so for centuries. Protein powders are made using industrial processing.
https://www.wikihow.com/Make-Pea-Protein-Powder
Bigger issue, it's basically similar to eating egg whites or low fat dairy (yes, those are not vegan! but easy analogy). Or, heck, a juice or peanut powder.
You are using part of the pea (the protein) and removing the starch and fiber. (Here's an explanation: https://legionathletics.com/pea-protein/)
Now, obviously, I think starch and fiber are generally desirable in a diet, but we aren't talking about eliminating them, we are talking about using the protein so it can be added to other things.
Again, my example of someone PREFERRING a smoothie or oats with fruit (and veg on the side) in the morning, but also wanting protein. The idea that adding protein to those foods = bad, but eating peas and getting the same number of calories and protein from them = good is not actually a very sensible approach to nutrition. It places simplistic rules (processed = bad) over reality (look at the actual make up of the foods and how you feel and what will help you get a good diet).
I don't care if anyone consumes protein powder (I try not to rely on it excessively since I prefer having a varied diet and I like beans and lentils and tofu -- which again is processed too), but if people are being told it's bad for them or not a good thing to consume, I think that ought to be based on reality. Saying that "processed foods" are always bad, also, includes a whole lot more than protein powder and, of course, is not even true. That's why I think it's important to push back.
A good, nutrient dense diet is important, but thinking that avoiding processed foods is the best way to get there isn't correct. You need to understand nutrition at least some, and if you do you may find that some processed foods can be helpful and make life easier and your dietary choices easier to sustain.
Amazing link -- I love trying stuff at home and it never occurred to me that I could try making my own protein powder! Thank you!1 -
seekingdaintiness wrote: »Well the problem with veganism isn't generally protein deficiency. Americans are crazy about believing they need huge amounts of protein. Veganism has a host of other problems the sufferers of this unnatural lifestyle generally suffer. The most common problems are lack of sufficient fat (yes, you need fat in your diet to process many vitamins), lack of iron, and lack of b12. Protein is available from many plant sources, but iron is only easily bio available from meats, even though it is present in some vegetables.
There are a lot of fats in: avocadoes, coconuts, flaxseeds, chia seeds, olive oil, nuts, legumes like peanuts, and soy. Vegans generally don't have a problem with fat. Omega-3s are also present in algal oil and algae. Iron is present in every plant food. Again, nuts, legumes, soy, dark leafy greens, spirulina, dark chocolate and cocoa powder, oats, quinoa, molasses. The only thing I can agree with is that it's easy to not get B12, but it's also hard to not get it these days because of nutritional yeast, fortified plant milks, and just a good ol' B12 supplement. I get enough from nooch and plant milk in my own diet. And I wouldn't say that it's an unnatural lifestyle, considering a person following a whole food vegan diet literally eats things that are naturally found.... in nature.7 -
seekingdaintiness wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »dragthewaters1991 wrote: »You don't have to worry nearly as much about protein as people say you do. There are raw vegans who have eaten nothing but fruits, vegetables, nuts, and seeds for years and they haven't gotten "protein deficiency." Kwashiorkor (protein deficiency) happens in famine situations where people are getting very little of ANY food, and the little food they are getting is low in protein such as rice. I haven't heard of any cases of people getting "protein deficiency" while eating a plentiful Western vegan diet. However, if you are concerned about it, the vegan protein powder isn't going to kill you, especially if you're only eating it for as long as you're dieting. Sure it's not as healthy as eating whole foods but it's fine.
I eat a mostly plant-based diet. I do have (on average) two eggs per day, and yesterday I also decided to add back in one serving of dairy per day, but the rest is vegan (and some days are entirely vegan). My daily protein has generally been in the 80-100g per day range for 2000-2100 calories, and that's without any protein powder, protein bars, etc. It's not something I'm concerned about at all.
There are also dozens and dozens of former raw vegans who quit veganism because they felt ill or weak or developed health problems. You can feel unwell, weak, or just under the weather due to low protein intake well before a clinical protein deficiency sets in. Using a diagnosed protein deficiency as the baseline for vegan wellness does new vegans a profound disservice. We owe them better than advice that is designed to keep them just above the baseline for medical intervention.
Surely our goal should involve thriving,a feeling of wellness, and lean muscle mass growth/retention, not just avoiding an official diagnosis of protein deficiency?
When you say consuming protein powder isn't as healthy as eating whole foods, what do you mean? What specific health problems are you concerned with and what data is that based on?
Well the problem with veganism isn't generally protein deficiency. Americans are crazy about believing they need huge amounts of protein. Veganism has a host of other problems the sufferers of this unnatural lifestyle generally suffer. The most common problems are lack of sufficient fat (yes, you need fat in your diet to process many vitamins), lack of iron, and lack of b12. Protein is available from many plant sources, but iron is only easily bio available from meats, even though it is present in some vegetables.
There's no indication in the OP that fat, iron, and B12 are a concern in her diet. In any event, these are very easy to address. Fat can be found in all sorts of plant foods (I actually tend to eat what many would consider a high fat diet and lately have been averaging 80 grams a day), iron *is* available in many plant foods and can be processed by human bodies, and B12 is incredibly easy and affordable to supplement (and is found in many fortified foods).
I've been vegan for over ten years and don't have an issue with any of them. I appreciate you taking a break from your completely natural lifestyle to warn us via computer though . . .3 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Amazing link -- I love trying stuff at home and it never occurred to me that I could try making my own protein powder! Thank you!
in theory regular protein powder could be made at home too- but Its like greek yogurt- sure you can make it at home- but why when the big tub is only 4.99$. I cant' be bothered. #toomuchwork #lazylifter
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janejellyroll wrote: »Amazing link -- I love trying stuff at home and it never occurred to me that I could try making my own protein powder! Thank you!
in theory regular protein powder could be made at home too- but Its like greek yogurt- sure you can make it at home- but why when the big tub is only 4.99$. I cant' be bothered. #toomuchwork #lazylifter
It's the kind of project I like to try once just to do it . . . before I go back to buying it.
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janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Amazing link -- I love trying stuff at home and it never occurred to me that I could try making my own protein powder! Thank you!
in theory regular protein powder could be made at home too- but Its like greek yogurt- sure you can make it at home- but why when the big tub is only 4.99$. I cant' be bothered. #toomuchwork #lazylifter
It's the kind of project I like to try once just to do it . . . before I go back to buying it.
I hear that.
I tried the yogurt thing 2x. It works- I mean- I can do it- but yeah- #lazy.
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dragthewaters1991 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
That's not a protein *isolate* which is what is in commercial powders. That's just roasted blended peas.
Also once again I never said protein powders are *BAD* just because they are processed in my initial post. In fact I said the opposite, I said they are fine. I don't know why everyone is intent on putting words in my mouth. But OP seemed to want to avoid processed foods due to health concerns which is why I even mentioned that.
Yes, I addressed the more typical pea protein later in my post, as I am sure you know, so I'm not sure why you are pretending I did not.
You are using "processed" in an atypical way also. I still want to know why pea protein used as I described would be "unhealthy" or something to avoid (and if you don't think so, just say that).0 -
dragthewaters1991 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »It's also worth noting that the concern really seems to be "you don't need huge amounts of protein" (which is not what is being discussed here)
Literally the title of the original post is "how much protein do I really need to be consuming?" My answer was "not as much as the current obsession with protein would have you believe" and there were other answers along those lines before mine, so I'm not sure why everyone is picking a fight with me.You're going to die of something anyway- I fail to see the level of concern here.
secondly- that's not what the article says exactly.
specifically it says long term impact hasn't been established.Their impact on long-term health may not have been fully established and they cannot be assumed to be without risk.
so- incorrect.
Now you're just arguing with me for the sake of arguing with me. If you don't care what you eat or how long you live then why are you even on MFP?
Except for the scientific literature disagrees that you don't need as much protein. It's not an obsession, it is scientific fact.
http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/pdf/10.1139/apnm-2015-0549
There are countless studies and meta-analyses that support higher levels of protein when a person is active and/or losing weight. Even more so, if a person cares about leanness or metabolic functions, than they should care about protein.
1.5 to 2.2g/kg is a solid recommendation that is backed through evidence; actual science not blogs by uninformed athletes.
But for a person who is 150 lbs/68kg, they should consume between 102 to 150g of protein. And there is a possibility that would have to be higher.
Given the OP workouts out a lot and appears fairly lean, it would benefit her from being at the higher end of that spectrum.7
This discussion has been closed.
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