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Of refeeds and diet breaks

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Replies

  • Posts: 236 Member
    anubis609 wrote: »

    Good job on the diet break and happy belated bday!

    Training during a deficit is usually going to take a little hit, but you can use relative strength to gauge whether the cut is too aggressive or if you're on track. Example: if your 8RM squat is 250lbs on maintenance/surplus, and you lose 5-10 lbs during your cut, and you end up squatting the same or just slightly less, like 240-245lbs, then you're still on track.

    On the other hand, you can certainly gain strength during a cut, but volume may need to be slightly reduced. Periodization/undulation/autoregulation strategies are applicable to your programming. Just be mindful that overtraining is usually associated with under eating, so if your lifts start taking a nosedive, reassess diet, sleep, recovery, total volume, frequency, etc. and adjust accordingly.

    Thanks @anubis609 !
    I'm trying to do a better job at tracking my workouts and paying more attention to the numbers. My workouts are just pretty random atm because I'm mostly focusing on running/flexibility with strength training 2x/week. I think the most helpful thing has been eating a small snack before workouts. I'll usually go to bed with a decent deficit and then wake up early to workout and just feel like I'm running on empty.
  • Posts: 3,177 Member

    If training is your primary goal, I would wait for vol. 2. Vol. 1 is mostly about nutrition, although he does touch on exercise here and there (for postmenopausal women he recommends very heavy lifting worked up to gradually and running, if can be done safely).

    Either way, having read a few chapters so far, I feel the book is well worth the price for any woman of any age. It has a wealth of practical information. Not only is it very detailed information-wise, but he also explains how to apply this information, and he has made certain distinctions for women by age in some parts. Nutrition, as it pertains to body composition, is mostly discussed by body fat level not by age (as far as I skimmed - have not read that part yet), although I did hear him mention that protein needs tend to increase with age in one of his podcasts.

    I cracked up at the initial titles he was talked out of: "50 Shades of Hormones" or "Not Just Little Men." :lol:
  • Posts: 2,732 Member

    Got it. Thank you. Will pick up some extra patience next time I'm at the store. ;)

    So I have been aiming to eat around 2000 calories per day for about three weeks - and more some days. Averaged 2067 calories logged 1/22 through 1/28. Averaged 2223 calories logged 1/29 through 2/4. The Libra trend line is slightly upward since I ended a diet break on Jan. 4.

    Gym workouts are consistent. Have been walking some more miles because zombie apocalypse challenge. Energy levels have been higher at the gym - some days.

    Going to stay at this 2000 level through Feb 12th. Then vacay - I will do what I can, but calories will likely increase and logging will be a WAG somedays. Planning to treat the vacay as a diet break.

    Looking ahead to 2/20 when I return home. Was thinking of setting the target at 1800 and then exceeding that some days. Is a 10% cut too drastic? Or am I still too impatient?

    Thanks for your input.

  • Posts: 1,057 Member
    It's all about glycogen stores. Eat a surplus for a day with a focus on carbohydrates, at least 500 grams of pure carbs. If glycogen is restored then so will the hormones that factor into energy homeostasis.
    It's literally that simple.
  • Posts: 1,057 Member
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »

    Did you watch the video? Recent research shows that a one day refeed isn't enough to bring hormones back in line.

    But it does. if glycogen stores are saturated. I'm like living proof. To be clear, I've already done it. Lost 130 lbs over almost 15 years. And, I look for research studies to understand "why" I was able to do what I've done.

    https://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/berardi61.htm

    Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 2000 Nov;24(11):1413-8.
    Effects of short-term carbohydrate or fat overfeeding on energy expenditure and plasma leptin concentrations in healthy female subjects.

    Twenty-Four-Hour Leptin Levels Respond to Cumulative Short-Term Energy Imbalance and Predict Subsequent Intake
    Catherine Chin-Chance Kenneth S. Polonsky Dale A. Schoeller
    The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, Volume 85, Issue 8, 1 August 2000, Pages 2685–2691, https://doi.org/10.1210/jcem.85.8.6755




  • Posts: 1,057 Member
    My proof, going on 15 years. One day overeat on anything and everything but make sure carbs are over 500 grams.

    3tpcfhk2hlsq.jpg
  • Posts: 1,055 Member
    I watched the video, but now I can't remember… They said a one-day refeed is not enough, but two is. But then Lyle pondered if two days during the week would be OK, even if they were not consecutive days. For instance, deficit for 2-3 days, refeed, deficit 2-3 days, refeed. Can anyone tell me if it was determined if that works as well as two consecutive days? Thx!
  • Posts: 1,057 Member
    Lyle is wrong. I'm sorry for those that love him but he is. Personally, I am a Lyle fan.
    We need to refeed on carbohydrates and replenish glycogen stores. For most, that means 500 grams of carbs and that will do the trick. One day is enough if glycogen is full.
  • Posts: 14,666 Member
    At some point of time I don't think we have the precision measurements and long-term studies available to fully calibrate whether one day splits or two in a row is more effective. I would venture to say that either of them might be better for you long term than none and what works best for you in terms of long-term adherence is probably much more important to meeting your goals.
  • Posts: 1,055 Member
    Russellb97 wrote: »
    Lyle is wrong. I'm sorry for those that love him but he is. Personally, I am a Lyle fan.
    We need to refeed on carbohydrates and replenish glycogen stores. For most, that means 500 grams of carbs and that will do the trick. One day is enough if glycogen is full.

    What percentage of your total calories is that? I'm doing awesome to hit 250 g carbs. I'm 5'6", 148 lbs, and would be having 2000-2200 calories on a refeed day.
  • Posts: 1,057 Member

    What percentage of your total calories is that? I'm doing awesome to hit 250 g carbs. I'm 5'6", 148 lbs, and would be having 2000-2200 calories on a refeed day.

    Restore your glycogen and all will be good. Personally, I think if you hit 50% of your BMR from carbs and you'll be fine. But, that is just my opinion.
  • Posts: 5,646 Member

    I think this is a silly argument. Lyle's 2 day is keeping to a calorie limit and likely topping stores while your recommendation of 500 g of carbs would put many people over calorie limits in one day.

    Whether you're consuming enough carbs in one day or two, the points you're making are the same -- consume enough carbs to top off your glycogen.

    Additionally, whether topping glycogen is in and of itself what upregulates the hormones depleted from eating at deficit is something that I forget from listening to the podcasts. That hormonal upregulation is what you're really after, not glycogen replenishment.

    Yep, pretty sure most people in this thread are aware that it's the increase in carbs that's key.
  • Posts: 1,055 Member
    edited February 2018
    There is so much information in this thread, I wish I could read through all of the info here. Is there a "magic" percentage of maintenance calories that seems to work to replenish glycogen? PP stated maybe half of BMR, but if my calculations are correct, that only puts me at 165g carbs, which I hit pretty often even at a deficit.

    I'm new to this whole refeed concept, having in the past cycled my calories (1450 cal x6 days, 2000 x1 day) but not paid attention to macros. Is it very important to keep fat lower than usual? When pre-logging for today, I played around with the numbers for quite a while, but with what I'll have for dinner with my family, plus what I feel like I need for satiety (ie, protein), I found it difficult to get carbs very high, fat very low, and protein where I'm comfortable. I settled at 257g carbs and about 61g fat, but only 74g protein. My usual default number of fat grams would be 69g for this number of calories.

    Thanks for any advice--I'd like to be proactive about not getting too low in leptin, high in cortisol, etc.
  • Posts: 1,055 Member
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »

    Yep, the point that women simply don't have the calorie allowance to achieve that seems to have been overlooked by the PP.

    FWIW, same height as you, my cals for refeeds were higher than yours due to higher TDEE, but I was aiming for min 300g of carbs based on what I'd gleaned from various podcasts Lyle has done. A quick look at his new book (which I've still only had time to have a brief look at :( ) says I got that about right, but y'know, he only spent three years researching and writing that thing, so we maybe shouldn't put too much stock in it. I kept fat around 50g for refeeds, and my protein was probably higher than it needed to be (the aforementioned shake consumption). That worked fine for me.

    Thanks for the info! I haven't quite figured out my maintenance calories, but I'm losing a little over a lb/week at an average of 1550 net cals/day, so I'm assuming maintenance at about 2000-2100 net. I'd also like to keep my protein higher, but I need to play around with the foods/numbers more (haven't tried the shake thing).
  • Posts: 5,646 Member
    There is so much information in this thread, I wish I could read through all of the info here. Is there a "magic" percentage of maintenance calories that seems to work to replenish glycogen? PP stated maybe half of BMR, but if my calculations are correct, that only puts me at 165g carbs, which I hit pretty often even at a deficit.

    I'm new to this whole refeed concept, having in the past cycled my calories (1450 cal x6 days, 2000 x1 day) but not paid attention to macros. Is it very important to keep fat lower than usual? When pre-logging for today, I played around with the numbers for quite a while, but with what I'll have for dinner with my family, plus what I feel like I need for satiety (ie, protein), I found it difficult to get carbs very high, fat very low, and protein where I'm comfortable. I settled at 257g carbs and about 61g fat, but only 74g protein. My usual default number of fat grams is would be 69g.

    Thanks for any advice--I'd like to be proactive about not getting too low in leptin, high in cortisol, etc.

    Keeping fat lower for refeeds is really so you have plenty of room for carbs (there's some other stuff, but my brain has just decided to stop firing, I think it's covered in the first 10 pages or so of the thread though, we did discuss it early on - skim through looking for Anubis's posts and you'll find it).

    The amount needed to replenish glycogen is really going to depend on how depleted it is to start with, based on what sort and amount of exercise you do, and your normal carb intake at a deficit. For someone who tends towards lower carbs in a deficit it's going to take more than for someone eating higher amounts. So if 165g is fairly normal for you, you're not going to be as depleted as say I would be at a deficit, because I tend towards lower then and am fairly active.
  • Posts: 1,055 Member
    Okay, thanks Nony_Mouse! I usually run for exercise, up to half-marathon distance, but here lately I've been mostly walking. I've felt pretty good so far at my deficit since restarting weight loss, and it sounds like the refeeds would be more important when I'm running more. Which might explain why it became much harder to keep to my deficit last go-around, coinciding with when I began running harder and more often.

    I will go back and read the first several pages of this thread tonight--thanks again!

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