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Of refeeds and diet breaks
Replies
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dancefit2015 wrote: »This thread has been quiet lately... maybe in need of more cat pics?
All I have to add that's relevant is my diet break in January went well. I maintained throughout the 2 weeks (even while not tracking on vacation
) And then whooshed a couple of pounds this past week. Although I probably ate them back on my b-day (AKA Free food and drinks day) yesterday. Training has been going well, but I can always tell quite a difference in my strength/endurance when I'm in a deficit v.s. maintenance.
Good job on the diet break and happy belated bday!
Training during a deficit is usually going to take a little hit, but you can use relative strength to gauge whether the cut is too aggressive or if you're on track. Example: if your 8RM squat is 250lbs on maintenance/surplus, and you lose 5-10 lbs during your cut, and you end up squatting the same or just slightly less, like 240-245lbs, then you're still on track.
On the other hand, you can certainly gain strength during a cut, but volume may need to be slightly reduced. Periodization/undulation/autoregulation strategies are applicable to your programming. Just be mindful that overtraining is usually associated with under eating, so if your lifts start taking a nosedive, reassess diet, sleep, recovery, total volume, frequency, etc. and adjust accordingly.5 -
MegaMooseEsq wrote: »
On the cat front, the tiny panther has bounced back from the snip and is running around like a maniac again. I re-read the care instructions this morning and rolled my eyes right out of my head at the part saying to keep her calm for 7-10 days. I managed to keep her calm for maybe 36 hours, primarily because she was still doped up to the gills.
Ha, yeah, I had the same with Mario, and his was major abdominal surgery! He escaped through windows five times before I finally gave in and just started letting him out. I figured that if he was going to pull his stitches he'd have done it by then jumping down from windows. He'd also started to show his displeasure at confinement by backing up to furniture and peeing on it right in front of me.5 -
Good job on the diet break and happy belated bday!
Training during a deficit is usually going to take a little hit, but you can use relative strength to gauge whether the cut is too aggressive or if you're on track. Example: if your 8RM squat is 250lbs on maintenance/surplus, and you lose 5-10 lbs during your cut, and you end up squatting the same or just slightly less, like 240-245lbs, then you're still on track.
On the other hand, you can certainly gain strength during a cut, but volume may need to be slightly reduced. Periodization/undulation/autoregulation strategies are applicable to your programming. Just be mindful that overtraining is usually associated with under eating, so if your lifts start taking a nosedive, reassess diet, sleep, recovery, total volume, frequency, etc. and adjust accordingly.
Thanks @anubis609 !
I'm trying to do a better job at tracking my workouts and paying more attention to the numbers. My workouts are just pretty random atm because I'm mostly focusing on running/flexibility with strength training 2x/week. I think the most helpful thing has been eating a small snack before workouts. I'll usually go to bed with a decent deficit and then wake up early to workout and just feel like I'm running on empty.2 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »
If training is your primary goal, I would wait for vol. 2. Vol. 1 is mostly about nutrition, although he does touch on exercise here and there (for postmenopausal women he recommends very heavy lifting worked up to gradually and running, if can be done safely).
Either way, having read a few chapters so far, I feel the book is well worth the price for any woman of any age. It has a wealth of practical information. Not only is it very detailed information-wise, but he also explains how to apply this information, and he has made certain distinctions for women by age in some parts. Nutrition, as it pertains to body composition, is mostly discussed by body fat level not by age (as far as I skimmed - have not read that part yet), although I did hear him mention that protein needs tend to increase with age in one of his podcasts.
I cracked up at the initial titles he was talked out of: "50 Shades of Hormones" or "Not Just Little Men."
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dancefit2015 wrote: »
Thanks @anubis609 !
I'm trying to do a better job at tracking my workouts and paying more attention to the numbers. My workouts are just pretty random atm because I'm mostly focusing on running/flexibility with strength training 2x/week. I think the most helpful thing has been eating a small snack before workouts. I'll usually go to bed with a decent deficit and then wake up early to workout and just feel like I'm running on empty.
Just remember that those decent deficits add up over time, so things like feeling a bit less energetic, a little more hungry, a little more irritable, etc. are all part of the dieting process and hormonal down regulation occurs with consistent deficits, if you've dipped into the arena of "there's not enough coffee in the world that would prevent homicide" then end the diet and take a short diet break, or undulate maintenance days with deficit days. Total average weekly deficits are a better measurement for stability than making sure you have a daily deficit.
Figure that your harder training days are going to require more energy, so eating a small snack before workouts, would definitely fit that line of thought. On lighter, less intense/rest days, you can afford to eat less, assuming you're not pushing harder than you normally would. But since your schedule is to work out first thing in the morning, you're going to backload most of your calories for the remainder of the day. Which is totally fine. It acts as part recovery and leaving enough in the tank for the next day. The only foreseeable issue is that since most people weigh themselves in the morning, eating heavy towards the end of the day will shift that weight up by the next day. Don't fall into the trap that scale weight is indicative of fat gain.
The thing is, you can't really have optimal fat loss and performance at the same time if the deficit is steep. If you want to do both, then your deficit is going to have to be small. It's ideal, but extends the fat loss period. These are just some of the factors that go into deciding what goal you have as a priority.
Pure fat loss goal: performance, recovery, and mood take a hit
Pure performance goal: fat loss takes a hit
Combination of both: time takes a hit
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Another fly by check in from me. I'm eyeball deep in data analysis for my big project (18km expressway that blitzed through loads of archaeological sites, I'm currently analysing the midden data and trying to make sense of it all - aka say something a little more intelligent than 'they harvested a mega ton of shellfish, and did a little fishing on the side'). I tend to disappear down a rabbit hole when I'm at this point, don't notice time, forget to eat (cos I'm also mega angsty so my belly doesn't remind me that's a thing), which would be great if I was still trying to lose weight, but I'm not. Add on the competitive Fitbit challenges with Pav (and GottaBurn, though god knows I won't catch up with her!), and I'm looking at my leftover cals going 'hmmm...'. I may need better lab snacks. And to remember to eat them!7
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gracegettingittogether wrote: »
Oh he looks just like our dear dog who died last month. I miss him so much! Now I'm going to go cry...
I don't know how I missed this post, but I'm sorry. I can imagine what you are feeling. I'm dreading that day as well, as he is already on borrowed time, but I know I will always have the joyful memories with me and it does get better after a while. Lost two cats in the past, one loss was very traumatic and felt like I was never going to feel better, but I eventually did. Lots of virtual hugs in your direction.9 -
Just remember that those decent deficits add up over time, so things like feeling a bit less energetic, a little more hungry, a little more irritable, etc. are all part of the dieting process and hormonal down regulation occurs with consistent deficits, if you've dipped into the arena of "there's not enough coffee in the world that would prevent homicide" then end the diet and take a short diet break, or undulate maintenance days with deficit days. Total average weekly deficits are a better measurement for stability than making sure you have a daily deficit.
Figure that your harder training days are going to require more energy, so eating a small snack before workouts, would definitely fit that line of thought. On lighter, less intense/rest days, you can afford to eat less, assuming you're not pushing harder than you normally would. But since your schedule is to work out first thing in the morning, you're going to backload most of your calories for the remainder of the day. Which is totally fine. It acts as part recovery and leaving enough in the tank for the next day. The only foreseeable issue is that since most people weigh themselves in the morning, eating heavy towards the end of the day will shift that weight up by the next day. Don't fall into the trap that scale weight is indicative of fat gain.
The thing is, you can't really have optimal fat loss and performance at the same time if the deficit is steep. If you want to do both, then your deficit is going to have to be small. It's ideal, but extends the fat loss period. These are just some of the factors that go into deciding what goal you have as a priority.
Pure fat loss goal: performance, recovery, and mood take a hit
Pure performance goal: fat loss takes a hit
Combination of both: time takes a hit
Well combination of both definitely sounds like the best option for me. I did a lot of strength training in high school, then stopped for about a year. I lost enough strength in that year and would like to avoid losing much more. For most of my weight loss I was set at 1lb/week. Since finding this thread a few months ago I've been around 0.75 - 1 lb/week (added in refeeds) with the exception of the two diet breaks I've taken. Maybe it's time to go down to 0.5 lb/week. I still have about 18 lbs to lose, but it sounds like it'll be worth it to practice some patience in the long run.7 -
alteredstates175 wrote: »
Got it. Thank you. Will pick up some extra patience next time I'm at the store.
So I have been aiming to eat around 2000 calories per day for about three weeks - and more some days. Averaged 2067 calories logged 1/22 through 1/28. Averaged 2223 calories logged 1/29 through 2/4. The Libra trend line is slightly upward since I ended a diet break on Jan. 4.
Gym workouts are consistent. Have been walking some more miles because zombie apocalypse challenge. Energy levels have been higher at the gym - some days.
Going to stay at this 2000 level through Feb 12th. Then vacay - I will do what I can, but calories will likely increase and logging will be a WAG somedays. Planning to treat the vacay as a diet break.
Looking ahead to 2/20 when I return home. Was thinking of setting the target at 1800 and then exceeding that some days. Is a 10% cut too drastic? Or am I still too impatient?
Thanks for your input.
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It's all about glycogen stores. Eat a surplus for a day with a focus on carbohydrates, at least 500 grams of pure carbs. If glycogen is restored then so will the hormones that factor into energy homeostasis.
It's literally that simple.4 -
Russellb97 wrote: »It's all about glycogen stores. Eat a surplus for a day with a focus on carbohydrates, at least 500 grams of pure carbs. If glycogen is restored then so will the hormones that factor into energy homeostasis.
It's literally that simple.
Did you watch the video? Recent research shows that a one day refeed isn't enough to bring hormones back in line.8 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »
Did you watch the video? Recent research shows that a one day refeed isn't enough to bring hormones back in line.
But it does. if glycogen stores are saturated. I'm like living proof. To be clear, I've already done it. Lost 130 lbs over almost 15 years. And, I look for research studies to understand "why" I was able to do what I've done.
https://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/berardi61.htm
Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 2000 Nov;24(11):1413-8.
Effects of short-term carbohydrate or fat overfeeding on energy expenditure and plasma leptin concentrations in healthy female subjects.
Twenty-Four-Hour Leptin Levels Respond to Cumulative Short-Term Energy Imbalance and Predict Subsequent Intake
Catherine Chin-Chance Kenneth S. Polonsky Dale A. Schoeller
The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, Volume 85, Issue 8, 1 August 2000, Pages 2685–2691, https://doi.org/10.1210/jcem.85.8.6755
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My proof, going on 15 years. One day overeat on anything and everything but make sure carbs are over 500 grams.
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I watched the video, but now I can't remember… They said a one-day refeed is not enough, but two is. But then Lyle pondered if two days during the week would be OK, even if they were not consecutive days. For instance, deficit for 2-3 days, refeed, deficit 2-3 days, refeed. Can anyone tell me if it was determined if that works as well as two consecutive days? Thx!1
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Lyle is wrong. I'm sorry for those that love him but he is. Personally, I am a Lyle fan.
We need to refeed on carbohydrates and replenish glycogen stores. For most, that means 500 grams of carbs and that will do the trick. One day is enough if glycogen is full.4 -
At some point of time I don't think we have the precision measurements and long-term studies available to fully calibrate whether one day splits or two in a row is more effective. I would venture to say that either of them might be better for you long term than none and what works best for you in terms of long-term adherence is probably much more important to meeting your goals.3
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This is only because researchers have refused to study the obvious.
As a guy who has struggled with his weight his entire life and once weighed over 330 lbs, I tell you with 100% confidence that one day is enough. this summer I will hit the 15-year anniversary of my journey and one day of refeeding was the key.7 -
Russellb97 wrote: »This is only because researchers have refused to study the obvious.
As a guy who has struggled with his weight his entire life and once weighed over 330 lbs, I tell you with 100% confidence that one day is enough. this summer I will hit the 15-year anniversary of my journey and one day of refeeding was the key.
Several other people in this thread have lost equally impressive amounts of weight, @pav8888 being one of them. Your method worked for you, and that's great, but you can't conclude based on that that two day refeeds wouldn't have worked better. I'm really not sure what your aim is here tbh. To tell us we're doing it wrong?8 -
Russellb97 wrote: »Lyle is wrong. I'm sorry for those that love him but he is. Personally, I am a Lyle fan.
We need to refeed on carbohydrates and replenish glycogen stores. For most, that means 500 grams of carbs and that will do the trick. One day is enough if glycogen is full.
What percentage of your total calories is that? I'm doing awesome to hit 250 g carbs. I'm 5'6", 148 lbs, and would be having 2000-2200 calories on a refeed day.2 -
lightenup2016 wrote: »
What percentage of your total calories is that? I'm doing awesome to hit 250 g carbs. I'm 5'6", 148 lbs, and would be having 2000-2200 calories on a refeed day.
Yep, the point that women simply don't have the calorie allowance to achieve that seems to have been overlooked by the PP.
FWIW, same height as you, my cals for refeeds were higher than yours due to higher TDEE, but I was aiming for min 300g of carbs based on what I'd gleaned from various podcasts Lyle has done. A quick look at his new book (which I've still only had time to have a brief look at
) says I got that about right, but y'know, he only spent three years researching and writing that thing, so we maybe shouldn't put too much stock in it. I kept fat around 50g for refeeds, and my protein was probably higher than it needed to be (the aforementioned shake consumption). That worked fine for me. 6 -
At some point of time I don't think we have the precision measurements and long-term studies available to fully calibrate whether one day splits or two in a row is more effective. I would venture to say that either of them might be better for you long term than none and what works best for you in terms of long-term adherence is probably much more important to meeting your goals.
I've been splitting mine up because I'm finding it's better for adherence. For me, adherence trumps everything. If it's not optimal, so what? It's better than binging.14 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »
Several other people in this thread have lost equally impressive amounts of weight, @pav8888 being one of them. Your method worked for you, and that's great, but you can't conclude based on that that two day refeeds wouldn't have worked better. I'm really not sure what your aim is here tbh. To tell us we're doing it wrong?
I'm saying that leptin has less to do with body-fat and far more to do with energy homeostasis. Glycogen depletion and saturation are tremendous signs of that. One day is enough. Two days work too.5 -
Russellb97 wrote: »This is only because researchers have refused to study the obvious.
As a guy who has struggled with his weight his entire life and once weighed over 330 lbs, I tell you with 100% confidence that one day is enough. this summer I will hit the 15-year anniversary of my journey and one day of refeeding was the key.
I think this is a silly argument. Lyle's 2 day is keeping to a calorie limit and likely topping stores while your recommendation of 500 g of carbs would put many people over calorie limits in one day.
Whether you're consuming enough carbs in one day or two, the points you're making are the same -- consume enough carbs to top off your glycogen.
Additionally, whether topping glycogen is in and of itself what upregulates the hormones depleted from eating at deficit is something that I forget from listening to the podcasts. That hormonal upregulation is what you're really after, not glycogen replenishment.
7 -
lightenup2016 wrote: »
What percentage of your total calories is that? I'm doing awesome to hit 250 g carbs. I'm 5'6", 148 lbs, and would be having 2000-2200 calories on a refeed day.
Restore your glycogen and all will be good. Personally, I think if you hit 50% of your BMR from carbs and you'll be fine. But, that is just my opinion.4 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
I think this is a silly argument. Lyle's 2 day is keeping to a calorie limit and likely topping stores while your recommendation of 500 g of carbs would put many people over calorie limits in one day.
Whether you're consuming enough carbs in one day or two, the points you're making are the same -- consume enough carbs to top off your glycogen.
Additionally, whether topping glycogen is in and of itself what upregulates the hormones depleted from eating at deficit is something that I forget from listening to the podcasts. That hormonal upregulation is what you're really after, not glycogen replenishment.
Yep, pretty sure most people in this thread are aware that it's the increase in carbs that's key.4 -
There is so much information in this thread, I wish I could read through all of the info here. Is there a "magic" percentage of maintenance calories that seems to work to replenish glycogen? PP stated maybe half of BMR, but if my calculations are correct, that only puts me at 165g carbs, which I hit pretty often even at a deficit.
I'm new to this whole refeed concept, having in the past cycled my calories (1450 cal x6 days, 2000 x1 day) but not paid attention to macros. Is it very important to keep fat lower than usual? When pre-logging for today, I played around with the numbers for quite a while, but with what I'll have for dinner with my family, plus what I feel like I need for satiety (ie, protein), I found it difficult to get carbs very high, fat very low, and protein where I'm comfortable. I settled at 257g carbs and about 61g fat, but only 74g protein. My usual default number of fat grams would be 69g for this number of calories.
Thanks for any advice--I'd like to be proactive about not getting too low in leptin, high in cortisol, etc.1 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »
Yep, the point that women simply don't have the calorie allowance to achieve that seems to have been overlooked by the PP.
FWIW, same height as you, my cals for refeeds were higher than yours due to higher TDEE, but I was aiming for min 300g of carbs based on what I'd gleaned from various podcasts Lyle has done. A quick look at his new book (which I've still only had time to have a brief look at ) says I got that about right, but y'know, he only spent three years researching and writing that thing, so we maybe shouldn't put too much stock in it. I kept fat around 50g for refeeds, and my protein was probably higher than it needed to be (the aforementioned shake consumption). That worked fine for me.
Thanks for the info! I haven't quite figured out my maintenance calories, but I'm losing a little over a lb/week at an average of 1550 net cals/day, so I'm assuming maintenance at about 2000-2100 net. I'd also like to keep my protein higher, but I need to play around with the foods/numbers more (haven't tried the shake thing).1 -
lightenup2016 wrote: »There is so much information in this thread, I wish I could read through all of the info here. Is there a "magic" percentage of maintenance calories that seems to work to replenish glycogen? PP stated maybe half of BMR, but if my calculations are correct, that only puts me at 165g carbs, which I hit pretty often even at a deficit.
I'm new to this whole refeed concept, having in the past cycled my calories (1450 cal x6 days, 2000 x1 day) but not paid attention to macros. Is it very important to keep fat lower than usual? When pre-logging for today, I played around with the numbers for quite a while, but with what I'll have for dinner with my family, plus what I feel like I need for satiety (ie, protein), I found it difficult to get carbs very high, fat very low, and protein where I'm comfortable. I settled at 257g carbs and about 61g fat, but only 74g protein. My usual default number of fat grams is would be 69g.
Thanks for any advice--I'd like to be proactive about not getting too low in leptin, high in cortisol, etc.
Keeping fat lower for refeeds is really so you have plenty of room for carbs (there's some other stuff, but my brain has just decided to stop firing, I think it's covered in the first 10 pages or so of the thread though, we did discuss it early on - skim through looking for Anubis's posts and you'll find it).
The amount needed to replenish glycogen is really going to depend on how depleted it is to start with, based on what sort and amount of exercise you do, and your normal carb intake at a deficit. For someone who tends towards lower carbs in a deficit it's going to take more than for someone eating higher amounts. So if 165g is fairly normal for you, you're not going to be as depleted as say I would be at a deficit, because I tend towards lower then and am fairly active.3 -
Okay, thanks Nony_Mouse! I usually run for exercise, up to half-marathon distance, but here lately I've been mostly walking. I've felt pretty good so far at my deficit since restarting weight loss, and it sounds like the refeeds would be more important when I'm running more. Which might explain why it became much harder to keep to my deficit last go-around, coinciding with when I began running harder and more often.
I will go back and read the first several pages of this thread tonight--thanks again!1 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »
Keeping fat lower for refeeds is really so you have plenty of room for carbs (there's some other stuff, but my brain has just decided to stop firing, I think it's covered in the first 10 pages or so of the thread though, we did discuss it early on - skim through looking for Anubis's posts and you'll find it).
The amount needed to replenish glycogen is really going to depend on how depleted it is to start with, based on what sort and amount of exercise you do, and your normal carb intake at a deficit. For someone who tends towards lower carbs in a deficit it's going to take more than for someone eating higher amounts. So if 165g is fairly normal for you, you're not going to be as depleted as say I would be at a deficit, because I tend towards lower then and am fairly active.
and I would be the least depleted 'cause even during my highest deficits I was averaging 282g (44% of calories) from carbs.
If I recall correctly, and I am sure Anubis will correct me if I am wrong, there were two components to controlling fats: a) you make room for carbs which is what you're trying to spike and b) in the presence of sufficient carbs to possibly cause a temporary over-abundance the fat will go straight to storage at a zero conversion cost and c)... well you're also trying for big **kitten** meals to give you the psychological feeling of the re-feed in addition to the physical effects of spiking leptin... fat is expensive in terms of volume (maybe I am projecting my own bias a bit on that last one?
In the end I think the main issue is that in the presence of a finite amount of calories and in order to maximize carbs your first macro to take a hit, if one has a hit for you to achieve your goals, would be fat ahead of protein.6
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