Of refeeds and diet breaks
Replies
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News on the post bulk.
Two weeks at deficit (almost, as have been really hungry trying to cut down to 2250 instead of 3000 per day and first week was zero deficit) and I am losing again. 1.6 lbs down, 32 or so to go. Have been playing with eating 2710ish training days and 1600ish rest days. Ooof, no matter which way I slice it my belly wants more food! My maintenance cals are 2600ish so the deficit is not steep! But am soldiering on. Next diet break not too far off, holiday in Easter break end of March.
Maybe 14 days at maintenance post bulk would have been a more gradual approach?3 -
nexangelus wrote: »News on the post bulk.
Two weeks at deficit (almost, as have been really hungry trying to cut down to 2250 instead of 3000 per day and first week was zero deficit) and I am losing again. 1.6 lbs down, 32 or so to go. Have been playing with eating 2710ish training days and 1600ish rest days. Ooof, no matter which way I slice it my belly wants more food! My maintenance cals are 2600ish so the deficit is not steep! But am soldiering on. Next diet break not too far off, holiday in Easter break end of March.
Maybe 14 days at maintenance post bulk would have been a more gradual approach?
Dang. Wish I could eat that much. I'm on the poverty macros for life team.6 -
I'm still here! I'm still very much focusing on behaviors and compliance, as I still am finding that stepping on the scale and dealing with fluctuations was playing into my "getting into disordered territory" thinking.
One major on the cusp of victory I've managed to eke out of myself is forcing myself to log my off piste behavior, even if it was retroactive logging. I have found that to be a game changer in several ways.
The first time I logged it, I was surprised to find out I was only over maintenance by 400 calories.
The second time I logged it, I did it after I ate the whole bag of chocolate nutty bites, but on the same day, and I managed my behavior the rest of the day, fighting the "eff it, might as well go all in now" voice in the back of my head that usually wins on those occasions. I logged the rest of the day and somehow managed, in spite of those 1100 calories of chocolate bliss, to have a small deficit for the day. I also managed to have my full protein intake. We won't tell my doctor about my fat intake, though.
The third time I was tempted to go off piste, I had two potato chips, logged them and decided I didn't want any more because I really wanted the popcorn I had planned later that night, so I told my inner binge girl to stfu. This was just yesterday. The popcorn was awesome, btw.13 -
nexangelus wrote: »News on the post bulk.
Two weeks at deficit (almost, as have been really hungry trying to cut down to 2250 instead of 3000 per day and first week was zero deficit) and I am losing again. 1.6 lbs down, 32 or so to go. Have been playing with eating 2710ish training days and 1600ish rest days. Ooof, no matter which way I slice it my belly wants more food! My maintenance cals are 2600ish so the deficit is not steep! But am soldiering on. Next diet break not too far off, holiday in Easter break end of March.
Maybe 14 days at maintenance post bulk would have been a more gradual approach?
Are your workouts in the morning to benefit from increased eating that day?
If in the evening, may I suggest increased level the 24 hrs after the workout.
Get the 24 hrs reduced level prior to workout. Except for whatever is needed to have a good workout.
Since recovery and repair happens 24-48 hr after a good workout, that could be why you are hungry.8 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »I'm still here! I'm still very much focusing on behaviors and compliance, as I still am finding that stepping on the scale and dealing with fluctuations was playing into my "getting into disordered territory" thinking.
One major on the cusp of victory I've managed to eke out of myself is forcing myself to log my off piste behavior, even if it was retroactive logging. I have found that to be a game changer in several ways.
The first time I logged it, I was surprised to find out I was only over maintenance by 400 calories.
The second time I logged it, I did it after I ate the whole bag of chocolate nutty bites, but on the same day, and I managed my behavior the rest of the day, fighting the "eff it, might as well go all in now" voice in the back of my head that usually wins on those occasions. I logged the rest of the day and somehow managed, in spite of those 1100 calories of chocolate bliss, to have a small deficit for the day. I also managed to have my full protein intake. We won't tell my doctor about my fat intake, though.
The third time I was tempted to go off piste, I had two potato chips, logged them and decided I didn't want any more because I really wanted the popcorn I had planned later that night, so I told my inner binge girl to stfu. This was just yesterday. The popcorn was awesome, btw.
That's very much my approach - my off pistes tend to be too much wine then screw it food related. I have a TDEE estimation spreadsheet courtesy of r/loseit, and I've made it my goal to log an accurate count from MFP in there as far as I am able, even if it contains too much booze and Marmite on toast!2 -
nexangelus wrote: »News on the post bulk.
Two weeks at deficit (almost, as have been really hungry trying to cut down to 2250 instead of 3000 per day and first week was zero deficit) and I am losing again. 1.6 lbs down, 32 or so to go. Have been playing with eating 2710ish training days and 1600ish rest days. Ooof, no matter which way I slice it my belly wants more food! My maintenance cals are 2600ish so the deficit is not steep! But am soldiering on. Next diet break not too far off, holiday in Easter break end of March.
Maybe 14 days at maintenance post bulk would have been a more gradual approach?
Are your workouts in the morning to benefit from increased eating that day?
If in the evening, may I suggest increased level the 24 hrs after the workout.
Get the 24 hrs reduced level prior to workout. Except for whatever is needed to have a good workout.
Since recovery and repair happens 24-48 hr after a good workout, that could be why you are hungry.
Cool, a new insight for me! I'm never particularly hungry after strenuous cardio like running or biking, but I'm ravenous the next day (which was really screwing with my head when I was trying to go by daily calories rather than weekly). And I knew about the 24 - 48 hour post-exercise recovery period, but didn't really put the two things together. Duh!6 -
Ya, I'm always good about having a great recovery evening meal, so body can really do something with it overnight during the major repair time. But it can be hard when not feeling hungry.
But the next day refill many times going on still.
Especially if a major calorie burn from endurance cardio - I'll still be refilling muscle stores the next day, prior to another likely workout that evening.3 -
bmeadows380 wrote: »I'm struggling with myself at the moment. I've had the same deficit level for a couple of months now, but lately, I haven't been able to limit myself to that level, and I find myself hungry and feeling a little deprived. I haven't lost anything in over 2 weeks and instead have been bouncing around the same 0.5 lb gain, and my measurements haven't changed in a month. It's almost like my body is forcing me into a diet break or has decided to take one for itself!
I'm still trying to get to the point where I can mentally accept that, though. I'm having a hard time giving myself that permission for a long term break, especially as I still haven't hit my current short goal of 260 lbs. I had told myself that once I hit 260, I'd take a month or two diet break; well, my body seems to have decided it didn't want to wait lol I guess its still trying to play catch-up with the major changes that has happened to it this year!
Though I'm still not sure if I should officially raise my calorie limit to a maintenance level. I'm eating over my 1400 calorie limit pretty much every day, but find that since I hate seeing a red number, once it the negative part gets to 100 or so, its easier to stop. I'd be afraid that if I raised it to say 2000 that I'd still end up going over.
I swear that the mental war is so much harder than the actual physical one!
This is a good example of what I've mentioned previously, where a response to hormonal down regulation will manifest in all dieters, not just lean. And the more aggressive the deficit, the harder those effects will be, and the shorter the dieting period will have to be.
The diet break does not have to be so extended, though it can if that's your choice. Diet breaks are usually 2 weeks between dieting phases. So, after 2 weeks assess where you're at mentally, and if you would like to do another round of dieting, you can create a much more sustainable strategy.
This is actually a very good segue into an article I just came across this morning, and it drives the point hard that leptin, and subsequent hormone cascade, does indeed take more than several days to return to baseline, and that reverse dieting (gradually increasing calories until maintenance is achieved) is doing nothing except just prolonging the deficit period:
My advice would be to prioritize getting rid of the urges as opposed to maintaining your post-diet weight. However, the following advice may be able to accomplish both to some degree. The first step is to immediately return to a surplus for a few days post diet. It’s been shown that high carbohydrate intake has the ability to temporarily boost leptin levels in the short term [15-16] which is the science behind the concept of high-carb refeeds on a diet. Give yourself at least 3 days at a surplus with a hefty amount of carbs and then drop calories to maintenance levels once hunger levels and urges begin to subside. Those surplus days can be untracked (recommended) or tracked depending on your comfort level. But it must be a surplus followed by a maintenance period.
As many times as Lyle's articles have been cited, this is just as good:
http://stackingplates.com/2018/02/how-reverse-dieting-can-negatively-impact-bingeing/8 -
bmeadows380 wrote: »I'm struggling with myself at the moment. I've had the same deficit level for a couple of months now, but lately, I haven't been able to limit myself to that level, and I find myself hungry and feeling a little deprived. I haven't lost anything in over 2 weeks and instead have been bouncing around the same 0.5 lb gain, and my measurements haven't changed in a month. It's almost like my body is forcing me into a diet break or has decided to take one for itself!
I'm still trying to get to the point where I can mentally accept that, though. I'm having a hard time giving myself that permission for a long term break, especially as I still haven't hit my current short goal of 260 lbs. I had told myself that once I hit 260, I'd take a month or two diet break; well, my body seems to have decided it didn't want to wait lol I guess its still trying to play catch-up with the major changes that has happened to it this year!
Though I'm still not sure if I should officially raise my calorie limit to a maintenance level. I'm eating over my 1400 calorie limit pretty much every day, but find that since I hate seeing a red number, once it the negative part gets to 100 or so, its easier to stop. I'd be afraid that if I raised it to say 2000 that I'd still end up going over.
I swear that the mental war is so much harder than the actual physical one!
Remind me what size deficit that is for you? It may simply be too aggressive for you, even if all the general rules of thumb on what you should be able to sustain say otherwise. I say take a break, even just for a couple of weeks, then restart with a higher calorie limit.1 -
nexangelus wrote: »News on the post bulk.
Two weeks at deficit (almost, as have been really hungry trying to cut down to 2250 instead of 3000 per day and first week was zero deficit) and I am losing again. 1.6 lbs down, 32 or so to go. Have been playing with eating 2710ish training days and 1600ish rest days. Ooof, no matter which way I slice it my belly wants more food! My maintenance cals are 2600ish so the deficit is not steep! But am soldiering on. Next diet break not too far off, holiday in Easter break end of March.
Maybe 14 days at maintenance post bulk would have been a more gradual approach?
Dang. Wish I could eat that much. I'm on the poverty macros for life team.
Just what I was thinking! Only on the rarest of my most active days ...0 -
Terebynthia wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »I'm still here! I'm still very much focusing on behaviors and compliance, as I still am finding that stepping on the scale and dealing with fluctuations was playing into my "getting into disordered territory" thinking.
One major on the cusp of victory I've managed to eke out of myself is forcing myself to log my off piste behavior, even if it was retroactive logging. I have found that to be a game changer in several ways.
The first time I logged it, I was surprised to find out I was only over maintenance by 400 calories.
The second time I logged it, I did it after I ate the whole bag of chocolate nutty bites, but on the same day, and I managed my behavior the rest of the day, fighting the "eff it, might as well go all in now" voice in the back of my head that usually wins on those occasions. I logged the rest of the day and somehow managed, in spite of those 1100 calories of chocolate bliss, to have a small deficit for the day. I also managed to have my full protein intake. We won't tell my doctor about my fat intake, though.
The third time I was tempted to go off piste, I had two potato chips, logged them and decided I didn't want any more because I really wanted the popcorn I had planned later that night, so I told my inner binge girl to stfu. This was just yesterday. The popcorn was awesome, btw.
That's very much my approach - my off pistes tend to be too much wine then screw it food related. I have a TDEE estimation spreadsheet courtesy of r/loseit, and I've made it my goal to log an accurate count from MFP in there as far as I am able, even if it contains too much booze and Marmite on toast!
Marmite?0 -
Terebynthia wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »I'm still here! I'm still very much focusing on behaviors and compliance, as I still am finding that stepping on the scale and dealing with fluctuations was playing into my "getting into disordered territory" thinking.
One major on the cusp of victory I've managed to eke out of myself is forcing myself to log my off piste behavior, even if it was retroactive logging. I have found that to be a game changer in several ways.
The first time I logged it, I was surprised to find out I was only over maintenance by 400 calories.
The second time I logged it, I did it after I ate the whole bag of chocolate nutty bites, but on the same day, and I managed my behavior the rest of the day, fighting the "eff it, might as well go all in now" voice in the back of my head that usually wins on those occasions. I logged the rest of the day and somehow managed, in spite of those 1100 calories of chocolate bliss, to have a small deficit for the day. I also managed to have my full protein intake. We won't tell my doctor about my fat intake, though.
The third time I was tempted to go off piste, I had two potato chips, logged them and decided I didn't want any more because I really wanted the popcorn I had planned later that night, so I told my inner binge girl to stfu. This was just yesterday. The popcorn was awesome, btw.
That's very much my approach - my off pistes tend to be too much wine then screw it food related. I have a TDEE estimation spreadsheet courtesy of r/loseit, and I've made it my goal to log an accurate count from MFP in there as far as I am able, even if it contains too much booze and Marmite on toast!
Marmite?
It's a yeast spread, and people either love it or hate it. In NZ there's a whole Marmite vs Vegemite 'thing' as to which is better (and our Marmite is different to the UK's Marmite, which is called something else here due to trademarking stuff). During the big Christchurch earthquake in 2011, the factory that makes Marmite was damaged, so there was none produced for ages, Marmitaggedon. People were selling both opened and unopened jars online for exorbitant prices. I actually didn't discover that I prefer Marmite to Vegemite until after the fact, so was unaffected.
But yeah, marmite and butter on a good grainy toast can chew through some serious cals (the Marmite being almost none of them). One of those things that I now don't eat because I refuse to believe there is such a thing as good gluten-free bread, so those food intolerances of mine are handy for some things!4 -
Oh yeah, me update. Still working the long hours. Having a day off today to get caught up on stuff around the house etc. Have actually managed to eat all my cals the past two days, helped by restocking lab snacks and generally lower TDEE from shorter evening walks and sitting on my butt 10-12 hours a day (quite seriously the only steps in work hours are pretty much the 250 my Fitbit demands from me each hour). Fairly exhausted, but only one more week and then a three day break while one of my best friends is visiting whilst home from the UK for a holiday. Then back to it for the last grind on my uber project. It's going to be weird when it's finished.
I've been on this project for over three years, which is practically unheard of in development-driven archaeology. It's going to be weird when it's over. Of course then I start work on the material for the new highway to the south of this one (really not much for that, may take a month tops), and then for the continuation of the expressway to the north (unknown at this point how much midden material will come out of that, but not nearly as much as for the uber project), though I don't know when that material will be coming my way (I'm not involved in the fieldwork for that project, just doing the faunal analysis).7 -
So you're a commercial archaeologist? Cool!
Nony has already covered Marmite, apart from it's the food of the gods. Fight me
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marmite
(the British version is very strong - a bit like Gentleman's Relish (although it tastes nothing like it), it has very divided opinions. You either love it or hate it, it's not a foodstuff that inspires meh). It's vegan, and fortified with various stuff so useful for vegans. I've tried the New Zealand Marmite (and the Australian Vegemite) but the UK version has the place in my heart - it tastes more intense to me. What you grow up with, I guess.1 -
I'm a Marmite XO girl though. I like the hard stuff
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Terebynthia wrote: »So you're a commercial archaeologist? Cool!
Yup indeed. Most archaeology here (as in many places) is development-driven. Faunal analysis is my specialty area, and my happy place, though the occasional bit of fieldwork to mix things up is good. I much prefer sub-contracting for others on that though, then they have to deal with all the grief and I can just do the fun bit. In reality, the 'fun bit' is often standing around watching diggers move dirt, and thinking 'oh dear god, could you just uncover a site before I poke my eyeballs out from boredom??'. Development archaeology is quick and dirty, and you never feel like you're doing as good a job of it as you should be, because you simply can't do as detailed work in that context, unless the values of the site are such that they warrant a fuller investigation. Even with the lab work I do, I can't do nearly as much with the material as I'd like to, because you can't expect developers to pay for that level of detail. And often you're dealing with such (comparatively) small samples that you just can't say a lot about them. That's the joy of this uber project - we basically have an 18km test trench up the coast, with samples the whole way from multiple sites, so even though a lot of my samples for individual sites are only 10 litres, I can group them to form a better picture of resource use in that area. I'm now up to four Excel workbooks, and god knows how many sheets. Tables and charts coming out my ears (because I'm looking at site individually, grouped into geographic areas, and over the whole project). Fifty-four sites, most with at least a 10 litre sample, several from bigger sites with much more because we sampled more than one area, often with bigger samples from each area. It is an unholy amount of data to analyse. 5 -
Are your workouts in the morning to benefit from increased eating that day?
If in the evening, may I suggest increased level the 24 hrs after the workout.
Get the 24 hrs reduced level prior to workout. Except for whatever is needed to have a good workout.
Since recovery and repair happens 24-48 hr after a good workout, that could be why you are hungry.
I train in the gym for an hour to ninety mins three days per week (usually Tues, Thurs and Sat), evenings post work. I cycle to and from work, so have cardio sorted for the week. Sometimes I take extra walks (an hour plus) for relaxation and extra deficit, etc.
I managed to lose fine and with not much hunger, before the bulk, just doing 2250 plus or minus the extra exercise cals...daily...now I seem to be ravenous no matter which combo I try. I adjusted today's 1600 to 2710 as I have pulled my lower back (one arm rows, wth?!) and cannot stop the hunger urges. Do not want to binge, as have been binge free for a long, long time now. Am I thirsty instead of hungry? I drink 2 litres at least daily of liquids, so I do not think it is that...
To the ladies who wish they could eat more...I am a larger lady (172lbs at the moment). I decided to eat at a surplus whilst not so lean, to deal with the psychological remnants of my ED. It helped loads, while I had eaten up to 3000 cals in a controlled manner, training for a sprint triathlon a few years before, my mind had not quite caught up with the body at that stage.
Thanks @heybales for the tips!
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Having just spent an hour and a half dealing to my very overgrown lawns, I'm going to concede that I should have just paid someone else to do that. Crossing fingers that with a couple of antihistamines, a few hours of feeling wretched will be the worst of it.8
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So did the thread ever get nominated for sticky-dom and did we end up with any new nuggets out of the women's book?3
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Just saying hello to all. Haven't had much to add to the discussion but have been following....4
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Did it again. Had a hungry day yesterday. Ate some potato chips, logged them. Still had room for the pizza I had planned for dinner and managed a small deficit for the day while still hitting protein targets.
I will be happy once the chips aren't in the house any more, though. I do have to say that. My son wanted them. They are a weakness of mine. I'm glad I'm giving in in a somewhat controlled fashion, though.
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So did the thread ever get nominated for sticky-dom and did we end up with any new nuggets out of the women's book?
We were nominated months ago, my guess is it isn't gonna happen.
Have not had time to even think about reading the Women's Book (still think he should have gone with Fifty Shades of Hormones ). 3 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »So did the thread ever get nominated for sticky-dom and did we end up with any new nuggets out of the women's book?
We were nominated months ago, my guess is it isn't gonna happen.
Have not had time to even think about reading the Women's Book (still think he should have gone with Fifty Shades of Hormones ).
How does one vote for sticky dom? For example...I haven't voted!
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Nony_Mouse wrote: »So did the thread ever get nominated for sticky-dom and did we end up with any new nuggets out of the women's book?
We were nominated months ago, my guess is it isn't gonna happen.
Have not had time to even think about reading the Women's Book (still think he should have gone with Fifty Shades of Hormones ).
How does one vote for sticky dom? For example...I haven't voted!
You don't vote, just nominate. Since there are several other nominations on the list, dating back months, I'm not taking it personally Our thread is awesome. http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10260479/nominate-posts-for-announcement-status-stickies#latest
In other news, my signed copy of the Women's Book arrived today!!!!!!! Still don't have time to read it...5 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
I will be happy once the chips aren't in the house any more, though. I do have to say that. My son wanted them. They are a weakness of mine. I'm glad I'm giving in in a somewhat controlled fashion, though.
Chips are one of my favorite food groups in this whole world! Counting out 13 chips sucks, but I do it...
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
I will be happy once the chips aren't in the house any more, though. I do have to say that. My son wanted them. They are a weakness of mine. I'm glad I'm giving in in a somewhat controlled fashion, though.
Chips are one of my favorite food groups in this whole world! Counting out 13 chips sucks, but I do it...
Yep, I end up destroying half a family sized bag if I don't pay attention. Measuring them out by weight is sometimes even more disappointing because they don't match the chip count, depending on the brand and if the chips aren't uniformly cut lol.5 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »1
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I started reading this thread way late so I’m nowhere near caught up on the discussion but just wanted to report:
I started my first diet break on Sunday. It’s only Thursday and, while I feel like it’s easy from the standpoint of I have enough calories that I don’t struggle to stay under and if I’m low for the day I just have some Oreos before bed, I feel like this is so much more mentally taxing than eating at a deficit.
I find myself longing for the two weeks to be over (I seriously have more than another week to go?!?!) so I can get back to a deficit and start losing again.12 -
I think I’m also pretty anxious to see how accurate I’ve been in gauging maintenance.4
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Carlos_421 wrote: »I think I’m also pretty anxious to see how accurate I’ve been in gauging maintenance.
I felt like you the first week of my diet break. Then the second week I got pretty comfortable (and happy with the extra calories!) So much so that I extended it another 3 days through the weekend
I was pleasantly surprised that my results seemed to bear out both my calculated maintenance and my logging were fairly accurate (or offset each other enough that in the end it didn't matter).4
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