Of refeeds and diet breaks
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dancefit2015 wrote: »How accurate are 7 point caliper tests for BF% ? Really, I have no need for extreme accuracy, but it's something I've been wondering. Last test I had put me at 25.5% (about 10 lbs ago) but when I look at the comparison pics I feel like mine must be much higher than that. But I don't know if it's just my brain confusing me, or different body shapes or what.
All BF Tests are inaccurate but the 7 point caliper is just about as good as any other IMHO. Many feel the Dexa is the gold standard but James Krieger has written up each method and they all can have their issues. Most will give you a good "ballpark" but none should be takes as dead accurate.
For me, when I get tested, I am as much interested in muscle mass change as BF change and calipers won't really give you that. Some of the more technological methods do.
Yup. True bf% and actual skeletal muscle mass accuracy could really only be done via autopsy because residual fluid can be accounted for.
Remember lean body mass is also known as fat free mass (FFM), so that includes everything that isn’t fat mass. A dexa scan would measure skeletal and organ fat mass then take what’s not covered in fat as lbm. If you have a large deuce hanging around your colon, that’s considered lbm also.
Dexa results can also be manipulated via hydration levels, bowel impaction, missing limbs, etc.3 -
Just for fun, if anyone wants to see how I injure myself almost daily... lol
https://youtu.be/654hbiJBmEo 8 -
Our cats have the same scratcher. Which mine ignore. Aside from that, are you lifting on a tiled floor!? Isn't that asking to cost yourself money when you crack one or 20?1
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dancefit2015 wrote: »The trainer that did mine seemed pretty experienced. She tested each point 2-3 times and took the average.dancefit2015 wrote: »How accurate are 7 point caliper tests for BF% ? Really, I have no need for extreme accuracy, but it's something I've been wondering. Last test I had put me at 25.5% (about 10 lbs ago) but when I look at the comparison pics I feel like mine must be much higher than that. But I don't know if it's just my brain confusing me, or different body shapes or what.
All BF Tests are inaccurate but the 7 point caliper is just about as good as any other IMHO. Many feel the Dexa is the gold standard but James Krieger has written up each method and they all can have their issues. Most will give you a good "ballpark" but none should be takes as dead accurate.
For me, when I get tested, I am as much interested in muscle mass change as BF change and calipers won't really give you that. Some of the more technological methods do.
Thanks, what methods would that be?
When I look at the built lean photo charts I feel like I am in-between the 30 - 35 % pictures, could it range that far? I'm probably just over thinking it all. I'd just like a good idea of my LBM.
Dexa, Hydrostatic and the Tanita BI units all do that. So does Bodpod but I've had quirky experiences with Bodpod that came in about 5% higher than other method. I've seen others here say things like that about Bodpod also.
All methods that give more detail are affected by the kinds of things anubis mentions. Hydration, body waste ect. I've gotten 2 scans in a row at my gym with a Tanita BI body composition monitor that I've been fairly impressed with. Whether the numbers were dead accurate or not, at least the changes were consistent and there was no crazy outlying numbers. It did body water, bone mass, muscle mass, body fat and visceral fat and it gave overall totals but also broke it down by body part, eg. arms, legs, trunk etc. Even if I don't trust the absolute numbers completely, it gives me the overall trends.
Some of us here can give you pretty good guesses based on visual if you'd be comfortable posting pics. Would totally get it if you weren't. If you do decide to do that, front view relaxed and flexed and side view relaxed and flexed and head to foot are most helpful to be able to assess.4 -
Mmapags is gentle in his assessments, I can assure you
That Anubis guy will tell you you're fat though 
(jks, they actually both came in fairly similar, and I will be asking them both to assess again once I do new pics).
I tend to find the online BF% pics pretty useless really, because none of them are really designed for that purpose. The lower end ones are more useful (but that is not me), but once you hit mid 20s it's just women in bikinis, not taken for the purpose of assessing body fat, and only give one example of each, therefore not showing different body types/shapes. I'm guessing 25% on someone who's straight up and down looks a lot different than 25% on someone who is curvy.2 -
VintageFeline wrote: »Our cats have the same scratcher. Which mine ignore. Aside from that, are you lifting on a tiled floor!? Isn't that asking to cost yourself money when you crack one or 20?
Mine ignores it as well lol. I have bumper plates and portable lifting mats I place underneath them but yes you’re right, the risk of cracking due to the repeated impact is real.. so I still need to be mindful of not dumping the weights onto the floor. But having bumper plates is more of a relief just in case.. I’m also cleaning out the garage to create a proper space. There’s just a literal crap ton of stuff in there lol0 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »Mmapags is gentle in his assessments, I can assure you That Anubis guy will tell you you're fat though (jks, they actually both came in fairly similar, and I will be asking them both to assess again once I do new pics).
I tend to find the online BF% pics pretty useless really, because none of them are really designed for that purpose. The lower end ones are more useful (but that is not me), but once you hit mid 20s it's just women in bikinis, not taken for the purpose of assessing body fat, and only give one example of each, therefore not showing different body types/shapes. I'm guessing 25% on someone who's straight up and down looks a lot different than 25% on someone who is curvy.
I believe the term I used is “unforgivingly objective” lol but yes, different body fat distribution will look different at the same percentage.
ETA: apparently using an iPhone emoji cuts off all text after it2 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »Mmapags is gentle in his assessments, I can assure you That Anubis guy will tell you you're fat though (jks, they actually both came in fairly similar, and I will be asking them both to assess again once I do new pics).
I tend to find the online BF% pics pretty useless really, because none of them are really designed for that purpose. The lower end ones are more useful (but that is not me), but once you hit mid 20s it's just women in bikinis, not taken for the purpose of assessing body fat, and only give one example of each, therefore not showing different body types/shapes. I'm guessing 25% on someone who's straight up and down looks a lot different than 25% on someone who is curvy.
I believe the term I used is “unforgivingly objective”
Haha, yes, which is actually what I asked for 1 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Mmapags is gentle in his assessments, I can assure you That Anubis guy will tell you you're fat though (jks, they actually both came in fairly similar, and I will be asking them both to assess again once I do new pics).
I tend to find the online BF% pics pretty useless really, because none of them are really designed for that purpose. The lower end ones are more useful (but that is not me), but once you hit mid 20s it's just women in bikinis, not taken for the purpose of assessing body fat, and only give one example of each, therefore not showing different body types/shapes. I'm guessing 25% on someone who's straight up and down looks a lot different than 25% on someone who is curvy.
I believe the term I used is “unforgivingly objective”
Haha, yes, which is actually what I asked for
I should really be tattooed with a warning label: Make requests at your own risk 3 -
Thanks everyone for the core temperature answers! I got glutened over the weekend and the brain fog was awesome, kept reading the posts over and over and thinking the answer was in there somewhere but it wasn't connecting.
I was up a couple of lbs. overnight Sunday on top of the couple of lbs. I was already up over the last few weeks, and I really had to focus on the words "maintenance" and "water weight", and not change anything about the way I'm eating so I can get an idea of what happens when I eat at what I think is maintenance on a weekly basis. I'm down 3 lbs. as of today, so that was a good step towards trusting the process, and not over-correcting. Yay!5 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Mmapags is gentle in his assessments, I can assure you That Anubis guy will tell you you're fat though (jks, they actually both came in fairly similar, and I will be asking them both to assess again once I do new pics).
I tend to find the online BF% pics pretty useless really, because none of them are really designed for that purpose. The lower end ones are more useful (but that is not me), but once you hit mid 20s it's just women in bikinis, not taken for the purpose of assessing body fat, and only give one example of each, therefore not showing different body types/shapes. I'm guessing 25% on someone who's straight up and down looks a lot different than 25% on someone who is curvy.
I believe the term I used is “unforgivingly objective”
Haha, yes, which is actually what I asked for
I should really be tattooed with a warning label: Make requests at your own risk
I was just joshing cos I knew you were wary about how I'd respond to brutal honesty
(luckily, I am one of those women who actually wants the truth when I ask 'do I look fat in this?', not 'no, you look fine' if I don't 
) 2 -
Thanks everyone for the core temperature answers! I got glutened over the weekend and the brain fog was awesome, kept reading the posts over and over and thinking the answer was in there somewhere but it wasn't connecting.
I was up a couple of lbs. overnight Sunday on top of the couple of lbs. I was already up over the last few weeks, and I really had to focus on the words "maintenance" and "water weight", and not change anything about the way I'm eating so I can get an idea of what happens when I eat at what I think is maintenance on a weekly basis. I'm down 3 lbs. as of today, so that was a good step towards trusting the process, and not over-correcting. Yay!
Ugh, brain fog. I woke up hungry today, have word salad, and am doing the tired, shaking my head as if it will magically clear it something thing. If I start to seem tetchy on top of this, then chances are I'm gonna flare. Yay. Skin is fricking dry, will definitely be doing a midday re-grease. Tiredness may just, hopefully, be lack of sleep. Cat is on 8 hourly pain meds, which means less than 8 hours of sleep for me, not aided by cats waking me in the middle of the night to inform me there is no food available (I've taken up the dry that they usually have for snacking, because of Mario's potential kidney issues). They will adjust, all three have been meal-fed only before.
Mandy's allergies are flaring too. I've given her itchy chin a clean with hebicleanse, and then attempted to give her a dose of pred, which I have on hand for her for this reason. I now have a couple of nice, less than superficial scratches above my elbow, a hole in my tee shirt, and a mushy pill down my bathroom drainpipe. I am debating dragging her into the vet as well and just getting her a pred shot. It's not without risks, but it works and is a lot less stressful for her than pilling her every day. She's already Miss Highly Strung from the ceiling fan having been on so much, and not being able to come and go as she pleases.
But, it's only 23 degrees in my lounge, so there's that at least.2 -
Hopefully this isn't too tangential to the overall re-feed/diet break theme - I've been planning the second half of my weight-loss process and am seriously considering trying out a feast-fast protocol. I'm already eating at or above maintenance 1-2 days a week, and am curious to see the effect of going to one day at a surplus followed by a fasting day. I'm hoping this will keep up whatever benefits I've enjoyed from those maintenance/surplus days, plus it would allow me a "free" day once a week AND I wouldn't have to reduce my calories on deficit days from where I am right now (about 1500/day) but I would be able to lower my overall average, which is going to be necessary if I want to hit my goal weight by the end of next year (which should be fairly doable - I've got 34 lbs to go to hit my goal at the top of my "normal" BMI range).
I've really enjoyed lurking on this thread, but so far haven't considered myself as a candidate for a diet break both because of my higher BMI (I'll hit "overweight" in January, most likely) and because I just haven't experienced any noticeably negative physical or mental side-effects of sustained deficit, which I'm currently crediting largely to those regular maintenance/surplus days. That said, I've still been in an overall deficit for six and a half months now and am aiming for another seven and a half before I start to raise calories again, so I'd like to be ahead of the game if a break becomes beneficial.
Of course, the consensus seems to be that you want to take the break *before* you think you need it, so I'm not sure how that's going to work. Hopefully this thread will still be here by then.0 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Mmapags is gentle in his assessments, I can assure you That Anubis guy will tell you you're fat though (jks, they actually both came in fairly similar, and I will be asking them both to assess again once I do new pics).
I tend to find the online BF% pics pretty useless really, because none of them are really designed for that purpose. The lower end ones are more useful (but that is not me), but once you hit mid 20s it's just women in bikinis, not taken for the purpose of assessing body fat, and only give one example of each, therefore not showing different body types/shapes. I'm guessing 25% on someone who's straight up and down looks a lot different than 25% on someone who is curvy.
I believe the term I used is “unforgivingly objective”
Haha, yes, which is actually what I asked for
I should really be tattooed with a warning label: Make requests at your own risk
I was just joshing cos I knew you were wary about how I'd respond to brutal honesty (luckily, I am one of those women who actually wants the truth when I ask 'do I look fat in this?', not 'no, you look fine' if I don't )
Which is absolutely admirable. Though, there are times my objective assessment is met with dismal results because I refused to be emotionally invested in someone else's problems. And that's when I refer them to someone else who may "provide better insight" AKA actually give a crap. Lmao.3 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Mmapags is gentle in his assessments, I can assure you That Anubis guy will tell you you're fat though (jks, they actually both came in fairly similar, and I will be asking them both to assess again once I do new pics).
I tend to find the online BF% pics pretty useless really, because none of them are really designed for that purpose. The lower end ones are more useful (but that is not me), but once you hit mid 20s it's just women in bikinis, not taken for the purpose of assessing body fat, and only give one example of each, therefore not showing different body types/shapes. I'm guessing 25% on someone who's straight up and down looks a lot different than 25% on someone who is curvy.
I believe the term I used is “unforgivingly objective”
Haha, yes, which is actually what I asked for
I should really be tattooed with a warning label: Make requests at your own risk
I was just joshing cos I knew you were wary about how I'd respond to brutal honesty (luckily, I am one of those women who actually wants the truth when I ask 'do I look fat in this?', not 'no, you look fine' if I don't )
Which is absolutely admirable. Though, there are times my objective assessment is met with dismal results because I refused to be emotionally invested in someone else's problems. And that's when I refer them to someone else who may "provide better insight" AKA actually give a crap. Lmao.
That is actually a real shame (the being met with dismal results, not you refusing to be emotionally invested!). False platitudes aren't going to get me where I want to be, nor anyone else.2 -
MegaMooseEsq wrote: »Hopefully this isn't too tangential to the overall re-feed/diet break theme - I've been planning the second half of my weight-loss process and am seriously considering trying out a feast-fast protocol. I'm already eating at or above maintenance 1-2 days a week, and am curious to see the effect of going to one day at a surplus followed by a fasting day. I'm hoping this will keep up whatever benefits I've enjoyed from those maintenance/surplus days, plus it would allow me a "free" day once a week AND I wouldn't have to reduce my calories on deficit days from where I am right now (about 1500/day) but I would be able to lower my overall average, which is going to be necessary if I want to hit my goal weight by the end of next year (which should be fairly doable - I've got 34 lbs to go to hit my goal at the top of my "normal" BMI range).
I've really enjoyed lurking on this thread, but so far haven't considered myself as a candidate for a diet break both because of my higher BMI (I'll hit "overweight" in January, most likely) and because I just haven't experienced any noticeably negative physical or mental side-effects of sustained deficit, which I'm currently crediting largely to those regular maintenance/surplus days. That said, I've still been in an overall deficit for six and a half months now and am aiming for another seven and a half before I start to raise calories again, so I'd like to be ahead of the game if a break becomes beneficial.
Of course, the consensus seems to be that you want to take the break *before* you think you need it, so I'm not sure how that's going to work. Hopefully this thread will still be here by then.
Not remotely tangential!! And a hell of a lot more on topic than a lot of the stuff in here (though we have established that cats and dogs are never a derail).
I'm definitely in the camp of taking a break before you need it, so you don't get to that point. That down regulation of hormones is happening, whether you can feel it or not. Though, your current strategy is probably staving them off more than if you were at a straight 24/7 deficit.
I don't see why your strategy wouldn't work, so long as the fast day is sustainable for you (by fast, do you mean all out fast, or as in like 5:2 where you're doing something like 500 cals on those days?). I'd still consider working full diet breaks into your plan though, especially as you get closer to 'normal' BMI range.1 -
In the refeed podcast, Lyle mentioned ADF (alternate day fasting), 5:2 and other types of fast/feast protocols but did not come to a conclusion about whether these protocols worked the same as the Refeed from a physiological point of view.
From a psychological POV, whatever works for you individually, I think.3 -
In the refeed podcast, Lyle mentioned ADF (alternate day fasting), 5:2 and other types of fast/feast protocols but did not come to a conclusion about whether these protocols worked the same as the Refeed from a physiological point of view.
From a psychological POV, whatever works for you individually, I think.
I don't go to 5:2 levels, but I do have a couple of low cal/carb days - they balance out my high day. I generally do them on non training days, and manage quite fine - I'm sure I could cut calories lower if I really wanted.1 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »MegaMooseEsq wrote: »Hopefully this isn't too tangential to the overall re-feed/diet break theme - I've been planning the second half of my weight-loss process and am seriously considering trying out a feast-fast protocol. I'm already eating at or above maintenance 1-2 days a week, and am curious to see the effect of going to one day at a surplus followed by a fasting day. I'm hoping this will keep up whatever benefits I've enjoyed from those maintenance/surplus days, plus it would allow me a "free" day once a week AND I wouldn't have to reduce my calories on deficit days from where I am right now (about 1500/day) but I would be able to lower my overall average, which is going to be necessary if I want to hit my goal weight by the end of next year (which should be fairly doable - I've got 34 lbs to go to hit my goal at the top of my "normal" BMI range).
I've really enjoyed lurking on this thread, but so far haven't considered myself as a candidate for a diet break both because of my higher BMI (I'll hit "overweight" in January, most likely) and because I just haven't experienced any noticeably negative physical or mental side-effects of sustained deficit, which I'm currently crediting largely to those regular maintenance/surplus days. That said, I've still been in an overall deficit for six and a half months now and am aiming for another seven and a half before I start to raise calories again, so I'd like to be ahead of the game if a break becomes beneficial.
Of course, the consensus seems to be that you want to take the break *before* you think you need it, so I'm not sure how that's going to work. Hopefully this thread will still be here by then.
Not remotely tangential!! And a hell of a lot more on topic than a lot of the stuff in here (though we have established that cats and dogs are never a derail).
I'm definitely in the camp of taking a break before you need it, so you don't get to that point. That down regulation of hormones is happening, whether you can feel it or not. Though, your current strategy is probably staving them off more than if you were at a straight 24/7 deficit.
I don't see why your strategy wouldn't work, so long as the fast day is sustainable for you (by fast, do you mean all out fast, or as in like 5:2 where you're doing something like 500 cals on those days?). I'd still consider working full diet breaks into your plan though, especially as you get closer to 'normal' BMI range.
Puppies and kitties are always on point! I hadn’t thought of it that way, but I guess I was thinking of starting with something like the 5:2 diet - my spouse and I have standing movie night Sundays at 8:30, so I figured I’d try fasting until then and eating a normal dinner. The goal might be to move to a full day fast, but maybe not. I’m going to have to skim the thread again to strategize on where to fit a full break - it’s one thing to slot one in when one is struggling, but I’m not quite sure how best to plan a preemptive strike.0 -
MegaMooseEsq wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »MegaMooseEsq wrote: »Hopefully this isn't too tangential to the overall re-feed/diet break theme - I've been planning the second half of my weight-loss process and am seriously considering trying out a feast-fast protocol. I'm already eating at or above maintenance 1-2 days a week, and am curious to see the effect of going to one day at a surplus followed by a fasting day. I'm hoping this will keep up whatever benefits I've enjoyed from those maintenance/surplus days, plus it would allow me a "free" day once a week AND I wouldn't have to reduce my calories on deficit days from where I am right now (about 1500/day) but I would be able to lower my overall average, which is going to be necessary if I want to hit my goal weight by the end of next year (which should be fairly doable - I've got 34 lbs to go to hit my goal at the top of my "normal" BMI range).
I've really enjoyed lurking on this thread, but so far haven't considered myself as a candidate for a diet break both because of my higher BMI (I'll hit "overweight" in January, most likely) and because I just haven't experienced any noticeably negative physical or mental side-effects of sustained deficit, which I'm currently crediting largely to those regular maintenance/surplus days. That said, I've still been in an overall deficit for six and a half months now and am aiming for another seven and a half before I start to raise calories again, so I'd like to be ahead of the game if a break becomes beneficial.
Of course, the consensus seems to be that you want to take the break *before* you think you need it, so I'm not sure how that's going to work. Hopefully this thread will still be here by then.
Not remotely tangential!! And a hell of a lot more on topic than a lot of the stuff in here (though we have established that cats and dogs are never a derail).
I'm definitely in the camp of taking a break before you need it, so you don't get to that point. That down regulation of hormones is happening, whether you can feel it or not. Though, your current strategy is probably staving them off more than if you were at a straight 24/7 deficit.
I don't see why your strategy wouldn't work, so long as the fast day is sustainable for you (by fast, do you mean all out fast, or as in like 5:2 where you're doing something like 500 cals on those days?). I'd still consider working full diet breaks into your plan though, especially as you get closer to 'normal' BMI range.
Puppies and kitties are always on point! I hadn’t thought of it that way, but I guess I was thinking of starting with something like the 5:2 diet - my spouse and I have standing movie night Sundays at 8:30, so I figured I’d try fasting until then and eating a normal dinner. The goal might be to move to a full day fast, but maybe not. I’m going to have to skim the thread again to strategize on where to fit a full break - it’s one thing to slot one in when one is struggling, but I’m not quite sure how best to plan a preemptive strike.
I think pre-emptive strike is really when it suits you. So, Christmas period is an obvious one, holidays, other special events, etc. There are a few people in the thread holding out to do one, or do a second one, over Christmas break.0
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