Of refeeds and diet breaks
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nexangelus wrote: »Darn! I have kindle for PC and it won't download it. Keep getting error message when I try to drag it in there to open it. Going to email bodyrecomp now...argh! Unless I am doing something wrong? Oh...it worked, I just closed and opened the Kindle app...no more alarm...emergency over, phew!
Gonna read some tonight.
Good old power cycle.
Of the app.
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I'm stuck on something, and can only find broscience sites -- so figured maybe one of the brains would know more.
Having some ... issues, and trying to figure out a relatively accurate energy availability per kilo calculation. I know the formula to use, but I'm stuck on finding an actual definition for exercise energy expenditure (EEE) that doesn't involve physically calculating each minute that I run, walk, go to barre, pace around the house, etc.
Some of the peer-reviewed literature says to determine EEE by subtracting REE/BMR from TDEE. Others call it the "training" expenditure -- but don't say how they arrive at that final number. The broscience sites are all "your exercise isn't your TDEE", but don't actually provide information beyond METS. And I trust my Watch for the active calorie piece -- I know it's under on what it calls "resting" by about 20 percent, and I adjust for that. It counts "active" as exercise minutes only (walking beyond 3 mph, I think?).
So I have the numbers, but I don't know the most accurate way to use them.
I know my BMR (as accurately as anyone could, based on the lab-testing). I know what a sedentary TDEE would be for me. I know what I'm actually burning for a real TDEE. And those numbers are so far -- now that my Synthroid is straightened out -- reflecting what I would expect for loss and intake. So they're as accurate as we're going to get, and they're as accurate what I need for this calculation and this conversation.
(Again, and more strongly worded -- not looking to get into the weeds over minutiae because *of course* it's not going to be accurate to the precise kcal, but going for a rough "this is how you use these numbers".)
Basically, where I am so far with the two ways of calculating is an "oh crap this is a huge kitten-kitten deal" and "oh, this is't good, but it's not the end of the world."
Yes, I'll ask my dietitian on Wednesday when I see her, but I'm also trying to pre-gear myself for a "Nope, this is a problem" conversation.0 -
If you have RMR/BMR figure (estimate BMR about 3% lower than measured RMR for rough), and a good sedentary TDEE and good normal average life TDEE, then do the following to get the EAT (Exercise Activity Thermogenesis - better acronym too, huh!).
calories eaten avg x 10% = TEF.
avg life TDEE - TEF - BMR = EAT
compare that to:
avg life TDEE - sedentary TDEE = EAT.
(because those TDEE figures already have TEF in them)
Should be about the same.
I'll mention, if you are looking to have something for comparison down the road to tweak what eating levels should be, a good logging figure would be a calculated BMR, and observed TDEE.
That gives you an activity factor multiplier.
You have that for seasonal records, and when seasons change, you know about where new eating level should be, and if calculated BMR doesn't change, then the same as prior times.
If BMR does change because of weight loss, then correct change to eating level and season.
Log those figures as well as the average exercise level during the time that goes with that multiplier.
You can then have a historical look at this level of exercise gave this multiplier.
If weight is different, BMR at new weight x multiplier gives new TDEE.
If weight same but exercise level different, same thing except new multiplier.
And this system doesn't require measured BMR/RMR, merely a good estimate of TDEE.
Not sure the purpose of it, but that's additional perhaps useful info compared to finding EAT.
I'll mention that even extreme cases of thyroid issues rarely show more than 5% variance of calculated anyway - body adaption to diets can be more than that.
Also, IIRC the Apple Watch is doing what the other activity trackers are doing - Active is official level of activity of certain MET level for certain amount of time - the amount of time and how they handle averages has bearing on how they count the minutes. What they call it is up to them too.
https://www.cdc.gov/nccdphp/dnpa/physical/pdf/pa_intensity_table_2_1.pdf
CDC gives Moderately at 3-6 METS, Vigorous is above that.
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Thank you! This is helpful -- and exactly what I was looking for. Because yes -- with the meds right (yay for a doc finally listening) the predicted TDEE and observed TDEE are matching surprisingly well, so I can be fairly confident that it's at least within a reasonable ballpark.
The meds issue was more of a water retention thing as opposed to a metabolism thing. My logging's been on point the entire time, but with noticeable water weight fluctuations. So at least *that* seems to be out of the "WTFBBQ?" picture now.
And huh. Good to know about the Watch. I knew the MPH thing only because I saw people complaining online about how they were active, but the Watch didn't give them calories for it, so I've always just looked more at the total figure when calculating and comparing to what I'd expect to be burning, based on the factors I know. (The only days I don't meet my activity goal is when I literally get to the end of the day and basically say "Screw this, I want a rest day and you can't make me leave my couch" -- so usually once or twice a week.)2 -
Probably like Fitbit, Apple has decided they want to see a minimum 3 METS (or calories equal to that) for so long before they count it as Active time.
Fitbit adjusted theirs up in time at some point in the past.
So you could get good calorie burn in there for short bursts, but your daily stats for that range could look awful.
People on Fitbit site used to attempt to compare calories that way, and of course saw what appeared to be descrepancies because of the way Fitbit counted time.0 -
I have nothing else to add to @heybales response but I did find this article as well
https://sci-hub.tw/10.1038/ijo.2014.1990 -
Interesting, but not surprising, article Lyle came across this morning:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/29360396/
Basically, if you were formerly obese, feelings of perpetual hunger doesn't stop. Ever. You just get better at managing it however you have to. And this is why I'm partially tethered to tracking almost indefinitely because if I allowed myself to eat based on hunger cues, progress derails.
It's a harsh reality, but that's the nature of it and the price of obesity. On the positive side of it, if you are/were formerly obese and have been able to maintain a healthy body composition for a period of time, celebrate the fact that you've demonstrated, and continue to possess, a remarkable amount of discipline that most people may have never gained.15 -
Interesting, but not surprising, article Lyle came across this morning:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/29360396/
Basically, if you were formerly obese, feelings of perpetual hunger doesn't stop. Ever. You just get better at managing it however you have to. And this is why I'm partially tethered to tracking almost indefinitely because if I allowed myself to eat based on hunger cues, progress derails.
It's a harsh reality, but that's the nature of it and the price of obesity. On the positive side of it, if you are/were formerly obese and have been able to maintain a healthy body composition for a period of time, celebrate the fact that you've demonstrated, and continue to possess, a remarkable amount of discipline that most people may have never gained.
Interesting!! I actually commented something along those lines to @PAV8888 the other day when he was bemoaning that I'm often going 'how the hell do I use up these cals??' at 10 o'clock at night (a product of high step counts from intense competition). I pointed out that I've never been obese, my overweight periods were relatively short-lived, and therefore I'm more used to eating a 'normal weight' amount on a day to day basis (ignoring binges, which for me generally had/have naught to do with hunger).4 -
That is an interesting study! I'm currently doing the "which keeps me fuller longer" dance between fat and protein in my macros, in part because my two meals a day on 20/4 IF were making me uncomfortably full. Shoehorning all the protein in gets tricky. I wish I liked greek yogurt more!
Carbs, particularly refined carbs, do make me want to eat all the things, sadly. I miss toast sometimes. Why the diet breaks are so nice!
I imagine I will always have to track when I hit goal weight.3 -
Interesting, but not surprising, article Lyle came across this morning:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/29360396/
Basically, if you were formerly obese, feelings of perpetual hunger doesn't stop. Ever. You just get better at managing it however you have to. And this is why I'm partially tethered to tracking almost indefinitely because if I allowed myself to eat based on hunger cues, progress derails.
It's a harsh reality, but that's the nature of it and the price of obesity. On the positive side of it, if you are/were formerly obese and have been able to maintain a healthy body composition for a period of time, celebrate the fact that you've demonstrated, and continue to possess, a remarkable amount of discipline that most people may have never gained.
This is really interesting, thanks! Definitely warrants further studies examining the mechanism for this observation. I would be very curious to know if there's a tipping point where the amount of body fat carried for a certain amount of time permanently alters the body's hunger signals, or if the impact is incremental, and only becomes perceptible after a certain time spent at an obese weight.
Also, (and really the big question in my mind), is this related to the fact that at a certain point, fat starts producing it's own hormones (I believe), or is it some other mechanism, and is it potentially controllable through further lifestyle changes (type of diet, for instance), or supplements.1 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »Interesting!! I actually commented something along those lines to @PAV8888 the other day when he was bemoaning that I'm often going 'how the hell do I use up these cals??' at 10 o'clock at night (a product of high step counts from intense competition). I pointed out that I've never been obese, my overweight periods were relatively short-lived, and therefore I'm more used to eating a 'normal weight' amount on a day to day basis (ignoring binges, which for me generally had/have naught to do with hunger).
Here I am, chasing after this annoying ankle-biter
(who managed a 2 hour walk while I was asleep) and not only is she dancing ahead of me, but I can't even bury myself in my goodies drawer because: **out of calories warning!** 
And then she is CRYING
that she can't come up with a selection of goodies 
big enough to cover her expenditure because she had forgotten to eat enough and even her mega shake won't bring in xxxx extra calories!!!!! 
One plate Nony! One little plate, me, and a buffet and xxxx Cal look like a mere entry fee!!!
(My sensitivity training forces me to avoid disclosing the xxxx amount
) 8 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »Interesting!! I actually commented something along those lines to @PAV8888 the other day when he was bemoaning that I'm often going 'how the hell do I use up these cals??' at 10 o'clock at night (a product of high step counts from intense competition). I pointed out that I've never been obese, my overweight periods were relatively short-lived, and therefore I'm more used to eating a 'normal weight' amount on a day to day basis (ignoring binges, which for me generally had/have naught to do with hunger).
Here I am, chasing after this annoying ankle-biter (who managed a 2 hour walk while I was asleep) and not only is she dancing ahead of me, but I can't even bury myself in my goodies drawer because: **out of calories warning!**
And then she is CRYING that she can't come up with a selection of goodies big enough to cover her expenditure because she had forgotten to eat enough and even her mega shake won't bring in xxxx extra calories!!!!!
One plate Nony! One little plate, me, and a buffet and xxxx Cal look like a mere entry fee!!!
(My sensitivity training forces me to avoid disclosing the amount )
Haha, this is what happens when I actually get engrossed in work!1 -
Interesting, but not surprising, article Lyle came across this morning:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/29360396/
Basically, if you were formerly obese, feelings of perpetual hunger doesn't stop. Ever. You just get better at managing it however you have to. And this is why I'm partially tethered to tracking almost indefinitely because if I allowed myself to eat based on hunger cues, progress derails.
It's a harsh reality, but that's the nature of it and the price of obesity. On the positive side of it, if you are/were formerly obese and have been able to maintain a healthy body composition for a period of time, celebrate the fact that you've demonstrated, and continue to possess, a remarkable amount of discipline that most people may have never gained.
This is really interesting, thanks! Definitely warrants further studies examining the mechanism for this observation. I would be very curious to know if there's a tipping point where the amount of body fat carried for a certain amount of time permanently alters the body's hunger signals, or if the impact is incremental, and only becomes perceptible after a certain time spent at an obese weight.
Also, (and really the big question in my mind), is this related to the fact that at a certain point, fat starts producing it's own hormones (I believe), or is it some other mechanism, and is it potentially controllable through further lifestyle changes (type of diet, for instance), or supplements.
To answer the question regarding hormonal signaling, body fat levels respond to leptin signaling (fullness and fat loss), and leptin is inversely correlated to ghrelin (hunger and fat storage). GLP-1, PYY, and CCK are all tied to the cascade of leptin signaling. The short of it is once leptin signaling, AKA the master hormone, decreases (because of total body fat loss), 4 or 5 other hormones are there to counteract against it and make you want to eat more and store more energy in the event of starvation. It's a survival tool.
The study I linked was suggesting that those multiple hormones to counter fat loss are perpetually ongoing, and the effect is stronger the more obese you were at the starting point.
Whether we're bound to carry a certain amount of body fat or if we can control it... That's actually what scientists tried to determine, whether we're bound to the "set point" of body fat or if we have control over it to create a new "settling point" for maintaining long-term/permanent levels of optimal body fat.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3209643/
Lyle's article: https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/set-points-settling-points-and-bodyweight-regulation-part-1.html/
Aadam Ali's article: http://physiqonomics.com/the-phase-diet/0 -
While everyone is still reading the Women's Book, here's more stuff for you lol
If I do this, then I can enjoy that
Another good article by Aadam
http://physiqonomics.com/if-i-do-this-principle/5 -
While everyone is still reading the Women's Book, here's more stuff for you lol
If I do this, then I can enjoy that
Another good article by Aadam
http://physiqonomics.com/if-i-do-this-principle/
Nom nom free *kitten*!1 -
MegaMooseEsq wrote: »While everyone is still reading the Women's Book, here's more stuff for you lol
If I do this, then I can enjoy that
Another good article by Aadam
http://physiqonomics.com/if-i-do-this-principle/
Nom nom free *kitten*!
Free is so within my budget! Wish $50 were within budget! 1 -
MegaMooseEsq wrote: »While everyone is still reading the Women's Book, here's more stuff for you lol
If I do this, then I can enjoy that
Another good article by Aadam
http://physiqonomics.com/if-i-do-this-principle/
Nom nom free *kitten*!
Free is so within my budget! Wish $50 were within budget!
I was having a bad day yesterday and almost put it on a credit card when I finally got home, but then my better instincts prevailed and I took a two-hour nap instead.4 -
MegaMooseEsq wrote: »MegaMooseEsq wrote: »While everyone is still reading the Women's Book, here's more stuff for you lol
If I do this, then I can enjoy that
Another good article by Aadam
http://physiqonomics.com/if-i-do-this-principle/
Nom nom free *kitten*!
Free is so within my budget! Wish $50 were within budget!
I was having a bad day yesterday and almost put it on a credit card when I finally got home, but then my better instincts prevailed and I took a two-hour nap instead.
Mine is on the credit card. Luckily I just switched said card to a lower rate one, and will probably have it paid within the purchase interest free period anyway.4 -
In reality, you could parse through the near 900 references and come up with a way to apply it to yourself, but I'd rather pay Lyle a one time payment of 2 hours of my rate for a digital and signed physical copy. Lol.4
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In reality, you could parse through the near 900 references and come up with a way to apply it to yourself, but I'd rather pay Lyle a one time payment of 2 hours of my rate for a digital and signed physical copy. Lol.
Oh, it’s probably worth the price, I just don’t have the budget.
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