Ketogenic diet
Replies
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midwesterner85 wrote: »diannethegeek wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »Andrea4456 wrote: »- Reduces inflammation in just a few days (ie: lower bp)
- Gets one off the sugar rollercoaster that drives many ppl to overeat in the first place
- Eliminates foods that have zero nutritional value from your diet, naturally
- Allows you to eat rich versions of your favorite foods again (milk, whole fat cheese, bacon)
- Improves dental health drastically (no sugar or carbs to give you plague)
- Better mental health (once you're no longer a sugar burner)
These are just a few of the many benefits of low carb lifestyle...
- Inflammation is such a misunderstood term.
- Sugar rollercoaster is in the eyes of the beholder. I rarely overeat sugary foods.
- I don't feel the need to eliminate less nutritious foods completely, that would be detrimental to my mental and social health. For what it's worth, oil and butter are nutritionally poor and provide little benefit beyond the essential amounts of fat needed.
- I eat rich versions of my favorite foods without having to go low carb, but on low carb, I can't eat more than half of my favorite foods (beans, fruits, lots of tomatoes, a whole eggplant, potatoes, pizza...etc).
- I have a toothbrush and a dentist mother.
- Mental health was the exact reason I could not continue with the diet. Low carbing affects my brain chemistry in extremely unpleasant ways.
These are just a few of many reasons why low carb is not for everyone, nor is better than other diets.
To the bolded, it was the same for me and I wish keto dieters were less eager to erase our experiences. I've been told by certain ketoers on this board that I should have kept going and pushed through, which is advice that could get someone hurt very quickly if they don't experience the magical side effects of the All Healing Keto.
I'm not going to push keto on someone who has have tried it and found it doesn't work, just like I don't like it when someone suggests "eat any food you want and just limit the quantities" when someone has tried it and it doesn't work.
For me, it is like telling an alcoholic they can drink beer as long as they limit to 2 per day. Assume I'm the alcoholic that can't stop once I start with 1 beer. If you tell me to limit to 2 per day, that might work for the first day, but by the 2nd or 3rd day; I'm likely to drink 3 or 4 or 20 beers.
I freely admit that CICO works for some people, but it doesn't work for me. Where I get frustrated is when I hear that a very low carb diet can't work for anybody and that it is unsustainable. It is certainly unsustainable for some people, but why does that automatically extrapolate to that it isn't sustainable for anybody?
Lets be honest, most diets are not sustainable. Its why all diets carry a 80 - 90% failure rate. Its why dieting is hard and why sustainment is even harder.
Totally true in my personal experience. My hunch in 2014 to cut out foods containing added sugars and/or any forms of any grains worked out well. Weight came off and has stayed off for three years so far eating until I am stuffed.10 -
Andrea4456 wrote: »(no sugar or carbs to give you plague)
Wow, carbs now caused the plague? I thought it was fleas spreading Yersinia pestis.
Okay, okay, I know it was a typo, but I thought it was funny and not far off what is claimed these days by some.9 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »So the weird thing about the Zodiac diet is that as a Sagittarius I'm pretty sure I'd have to eat a lot of oats and maybe some apples -- carbs, right? Should we sort the signs by their fitness to keto? Leo seems like a good candidate, for sure, but some of them have always confused me from a dietary perspective (Libra?).
My sister is a Taurus, are grain fed Taurans okay, or does she need to focus only on grass (she'll be seriously bummed). Presumably beef is out of the question; that's like cannibalism, so icky.
So as a Capricorn, I'm supposed to avoid chocolate, sugar, and spicy foods (so they want me to be miserable), I supposedly am susceptible to alcoholism so I should avoid alcohol (more miserable), I need lots of calcium and protein so dairy is recommended, and then arbitrarily I'm encouraged to eat leeks, beef, kale, quinoa, cauliflower, and cranberries. I guess that could work for keto?
However, my blood type is AB. As per the blood type diet, I have low stomach acid and do not digest meat well, so I should avoid it or at least eat in very small portions. I am supposed to eat fish though, so I guess you could make keto work if you wanted to load up on the fish. This diet also tells me to cut out alcohol (and caffeine), so they can kiss my heiny as well.
The symbol for Capricorn is a goat with a fish tail. This could get confusing. I think I'm just going to eat what I'm already eating. If keto works for you, more power to ya.
Capricorn also makes you the Messiah.
Or a very naughty boy.4 -
Since I started eating keto, my diet is much healthier. I only eat real food (no more processed junk) and I eat plenty of vegies...but not the high glycemic kind. My weight is dropping and my arthritis pain is gone. My energy level stays even, so no more afternoon blood sugar crashes. I sleep better. I was a "volume eater" before and would fill up on salads and vegies when I was following a low fat diet, but I don't feel the need to anymore now. I love that I can enjoy full fat cheese and cook with real butter and oil. Food tastes great again! I'm in for the long haul.
10 -
hikernut53 wrote: »Since I started eating keto, my diet is much healthier. I only eat real food (no more processed junk) and I eat plenty of vegies...but not the high glycemic kind. My weight is dropping and my arthritis pain is gone. My energy level stays even, so no more afternoon blood sugar crashes. I sleep better. I was a "volume eater" before and would fill up on salads and vegies when I was following a low fat diet, but I don't feel the need to anymore now. I love that I can enjoy full fat cheese and cook with real butter and oil. Food tastes great again! I'm in for the long haul.
This is important to address because let's point out what happened:
- no more processed junk
- eat plenty of vegies [sic]
- weight dropped > reduced/removed arthritic pain, energy level stays even; no more afternoon blood sugar crashes
- enjoy full fat cheese and cooking with butter and oil
This is what is known in the fitpro circle as a flexible diet strategy that focuses on nutrient density, or the 80/20 rule, or IIFYM, or "eating to satiety," or "clean eating," or "paleo" .. whatever you want to name it, it's essentially the same.
It does not matter if it is designated as low/moderate/high carb/fat. And this is why ALL diets work because they're designed to reduce the intake of processed food, focus on whole, nutrient dense food, and enjoy what you're eating to remain adherent to the diet in the face of a caloric deficit or whatever the goal is.
I don't know many successful long-term dieters that have not mimicked this same sentiment.8 -
diannethegeek wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »diannethegeek wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »Andrea4456 wrote: »- Reduces inflammation in just a few days (ie: lower bp)
- Gets one off the sugar rollercoaster that drives many ppl to overeat in the first place
- Eliminates foods that have zero nutritional value from your diet, naturally
- Allows you to eat rich versions of your favorite foods again (milk, whole fat cheese, bacon)
- Improves dental health drastically (no sugar or carbs to give you plague)
- Better mental health (once you're no longer a sugar burner)
These are just a few of the many benefits of low carb lifestyle...
- Inflammation is such a misunderstood term.
- Sugar rollercoaster is in the eyes of the beholder. I rarely overeat sugary foods.
- I don't feel the need to eliminate less nutritious foods completely, that would be detrimental to my mental and social health. For what it's worth, oil and butter are nutritionally poor and provide little benefit beyond the essential amounts of fat needed.
- I eat rich versions of my favorite foods without having to go low carb, but on low carb, I can't eat more than half of my favorite foods (beans, fruits, lots of tomatoes, a whole eggplant, potatoes, pizza...etc).
- I have a toothbrush and a dentist mother.
- Mental health was the exact reason I could not continue with the diet. Low carbing affects my brain chemistry in extremely unpleasant ways.
These are just a few of many reasons why low carb is not for everyone, nor is better than other diets.
To the bolded, it was the same for me and I wish keto dieters were less eager to erase our experiences. I've been told by certain ketoers on this board that I should have kept going and pushed through, which is advice that could get someone hurt very quickly if they don't experience the magical side effects of the All Healing Keto.
I'm not going to push keto on someone who has have tried it and found it doesn't work, just like I don't like it when someone suggests "eat any food you want and just limit the quantities" when someone has tried it and it doesn't work.
For me, it is like telling an alcoholic they can drink beer as long as they limit to 2 per day. Assume I'm the alcoholic that can't stop once I start with 1 beer. If you tell me to limit to 2 per day, that might work for the first day, but by the 2nd or 3rd day; I'm likely to drink 3 or 4 or 20 beers.
I freely admit that CICO works for some people, but it doesn't work for me. Where I get frustrated is when I hear that a very low carb diet can't work for anybody and that it is unsustainable. It is certainly unsustainable for some people, but why does that automatically extrapolate to that it isn't sustainable for anybody?
I'm sorry? Where have I ever indicated that it isn't sustainable for anybody? Ever? Where have I indicated this? Every keto thread I've ever entered -- and this is why I stop entering them very often -- I've clearly stated up front that keto works very well for some people. It's great if it works for you. I'm happy for you. I actively want people to try different diets and see what works for them. But I'm discussing the original quote in this string which made no such caveats.
I never said you, specifically, said keto is not sustainable.0 -
hikernut53 wrote: »Since I started eating keto, my diet is much healthier. I only eat real food (no more processed junk) and I eat plenty of vegies...but not the high glycemic kind. My weight is dropping and my arthritis pain is gone. My energy level stays even, so no more afternoon blood sugar crashes. I sleep better. I was a "volume eater" before and would fill up on salads and vegies when I was following a low fat diet, but I don't feel the need to anymore now. I love that I can enjoy full fat cheese and cook with real butter and oil. Food tastes great again! I'm in for the long haul.
And keto in and of itself does not make you do any of that, nor does any other diet prevent you from doing that. There's lots of "processed junk" that fits easily into a keto diet. And almost all veggies are high carb by calories. So if anything, eating a lot of veggies goes counter to keto.12 -
hikernut53 wrote: »Since I started eating keto, my diet is much healthier. I only eat real food (no more processed junk) and I eat plenty of vegies...but not the high glycemic kind. My weight is dropping and my arthritis pain is gone. My energy level stays even, so no more afternoon blood sugar crashes. I sleep better. I was a "volume eater" before and would fill up on salads and vegies when I was following a low fat diet, but I don't feel the need to anymore now. I love that I can enjoy full fat cheese and cook with real butter and oil. Food tastes great again! I'm in for the long haul.
Fixed.16 -
I'm currently on a keto diet for my epilepsy which is a bit different than the standard keto. For neuro conditions it's 80-90% fat, 5-15% protein, 0-5% carbs (which is what I'm following). Fat doesn't fill be up like protein/carbs do unfortunately. The good thing though is my seizures have been decreasing. Surprisingly, I'm rapidly losing weight (Even though that wasn't my original intention) despite eating over 2,500 calories and over 200 grams of fat. I use a minimum of 12 tablespoons of coconut oil per day. Its really good in recipes! Cellulite is disappearing so I guess that's a plus lol. And my blood sugar crashes finally stopped.3
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KrazyKrissyy wrote: »I'm currently on a keto diet for my epilepsy which is a bit different than the standard keto. For neuro conditions it's 80-90% fat, 5-15% protein, 0-5% carbs (which is what I'm following). Fat doesn't fill be up like protein/carbs do unfortunately. The good thing though is my seizures have been decreasing. Surprisingly, I'm rapidly losing weight (Even though that wasn't my original intention) despite eating over 2,500 calories and over 200 grams of fat. I use a minimum of 12 tablespoons of coconut oil per day. Its really good in recipes! Cellulite is disappearing so I guess that's a plus lol. And my blood sugar crashes finally stopped.
were your seizures due to your blood sugar crashing? are you diabetic too or? what do you mean rapidly losing weight? and how do you measure your food intake? because rapid weight loss is usually from a very high deficit which should not be the case if you are really eating 2500 calories, unless you are on the go all day every day,or you have an underlying health issue causing it that you dont know about.2 -
@KrazyKrissyy, It's awesome keto is reducing your seizures. It helps many with Epilepsy. Given it's success with Epilepsy, I trialed MTKD for my neurological movement disorder (Cervical Dystonia aka Spasmodic Torticollis) for 52 weeks in 2016. Alas it was not effective but for sure it's not epilepsy so it was just a hope on my part. I've read a bit where there are a few trials with Parkinson's also so that also served as encouragement.
I'm curious how you were able to get 3/4 cup of coconut oil into recipes consistently to eat that much every day. I would eat a few tablespoons (off the spoon) a day to ensure I got the entire amount but had to also supplement with foods like full fat cream cheese and mascarpone for their high fat LOW protein content. I'm not sure my digestive tract would have managed 12 tablespoons of straight coconut oil but I never tested it. I trialed MCT oil the last few months and could definitely handle only 3-4 tbsp of that daily.
About 1200 of my 1500 daily calories were fat.
What was your source for recipes so heavy in coconut oil? Most of what I've found are desserts and eating the entire pan full (for the fat content and to ensure fat % intake) would put me over my maintenance calories and limit protein even further. Cool that you're losing weight if that is a bonus to you. I found I maintained my weight on the same calories as my previous 18 months of maintenance.
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KrazyKrissyy wrote: »I'm currently on a keto diet for my epilepsy which is a bit different than the standard keto. For neuro conditions it's 80-90% fat, 5-15% protein, 0-5% carbs (which is what I'm following). Fat doesn't fill be up like protein/carbs do unfortunately. The good thing though is my seizures have been decreasing. Surprisingly, I'm rapidly losing weight (Even though that wasn't my original intention) despite eating over 2,500 calories and over 200 grams of fat. I use a minimum of 12 tablespoons of coconut oil per day. Its really good in recipes! Cellulite is disappearing so I guess that's a plus lol. And my blood sugar crashes finally stopped.
Just to clarify this, a ketogenic diet was intended for the treatment of epilepsy in conjunction with medication to reduce the prevalence of seizures. That IS THE STANDARD of keto. All other variations of the diet to promote weight loss are actually bastardized versions of the original diet to treat epilepsy, specifically in children and adolescents.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2902940/
https://charliefoundation.org/diet-plans/
I'm not offering any advice specifically to @KrazyKrissyy, as a medical condition requires a medical professional, but the following is intended for devout keto followers using the diet for non-neurological and non-medical purposes, AKA genpop keto.
Herein lies the confusion that it was intended for all other people. What most keto "gurus" tout are the purported benefits as it applies to neurological conditions and it's now just barely tapped as a recent study for the general population, with more of a benefit to the treatment of diabetes and insulin resistance, but what they won't mention is that the classic diet with a 4:1 ketogenic ratio of fat:protein is that the children who were placed on this diet, actually weened off that ratio to a more modest diet that included a tapering up of protein to what is considered a modified Atkins diet (MAD) as their seizures were controlled because the abysmally low amount of protein in a child's biology leads to cachexia or sarcopenia in adults. Therefore, as a countermeasure, because of the importance of protein as we age (especially during the adolescent stage to puberty), the efficacy of MAD compared to KD was suggested as perhaps a better method to apply for adult epilepsy.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26859528
Basically, if you have nothing wrong with you, other than being overfat, adhering to a diet (severely high in dietary fat and low in protein) intended to treat a medical condition in order to "biohack" your body into ketosis (a natural survival trait inherent to humans) is asinine.11 -
KrazyKrissyy wrote: »I'm currently on a keto diet for my epilepsy which is a bit different than the standard keto. For neuro conditions it's 80-90% fat, 5-15% protein, 0-5% carbs (which is what I'm following). Fat doesn't fill be up like protein/carbs do unfortunately. The good thing though is my seizures have been decreasing. Surprisingly, I'm rapidly losing weight (Even though that wasn't my original intention) despite eating over 2,500 calories and over 200 grams of fat. I use a minimum of 12 tablespoons of coconut oil per day. Its really good in recipes! Cellulite is disappearing so I guess that's a plus lol. And my blood sugar crashes finally stopped.
Basically, if you have nothing wrong with you, other than being overfat, adhering to a diet (severely high in dietary fat and low in protein) intended to treat a medical condition in order to "biohack" your body into ketosis (a natural survival trait inherent to humans) is asinine.]/b]
Quoted for emphasis and and truth.6 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »KrazyKrissyy wrote: »I'm currently on a keto diet for my epilepsy which is a bit different than the standard keto. For neuro conditions it's 80-90% fat, 5-15% protein, 0-5% carbs (which is what I'm following). Fat doesn't fill be up like protein/carbs do unfortunately. The good thing though is my seizures have been decreasing. Surprisingly, I'm rapidly losing weight (Even though that wasn't my original intention) despite eating over 2,500 calories and over 200 grams of fat. I use a minimum of 12 tablespoons of coconut oil per day. Its really good in recipes! Cellulite is disappearing so I guess that's a plus lol. And my blood sugar crashes finally stopped.
were your seizures due to your blood sugar crashing? are you diabetic too or? what do you mean rapidly losing weight? and how do you measure your food intake? because rapid weight loss is usually from a very high deficit which should not be the case if you are really eating 2500 calories, unless you are on the go all day every day,or you have an underlying health issue causing it that you dont know about.
Its a possibility that my seizures are due to low blood sugar, although ive had seizures since age 7. I dont have diabetes but my father does. I have reactive hypoglycemia, epilepsy, IBS, Gastroparesis, and SIBO. Veggies, fruits, grains, nuts, seeds, beans, wheat, and most dairy makes me look 5 months pregnant along with gas, cramps, bowel issues (my stomach will temporarily swell). My safe foods are meat, butter, oils, nut butters, cream cheese, etc. Anything low in fiber (however, i have to avoid refined foods and sugars because of my reactive hypoglycemia). Coconut oil helps me use the bathroom. The IBS-C, Gastroparesis, and methane SIBO causes chronic constipation and slow motility. TMI...but...Coconut oil gives me the runs and I'd rather have that then being backed up for 3-4 weeks. I use a measuring spoon (tablespoon) to fill ice cube trays with coconut oil, nut butter, and stevia and freeze. They taste great! I go through 1-2 trays per day.2 -
@kpk54 I used coconut oil to make fat bombs. I'm sorry the coconut oil didn't agree with you
have you been tested for any digestive issues as well? Different digestive problems can and can't handle different foods. 1 -
KrazyKrissyy wrote: »I'm currently on a keto diet for my epilepsy which is a bit different than the standard keto. For neuro conditions it's 80-90% fat, 5-15% protein, 0-5% carbs (which is what I'm following). Fat doesn't fill be up like protein/carbs do unfortunately. The good thing though is my seizures have been decreasing. Surprisingly, I'm rapidly losing weight (Even though that wasn't my original intention) despite eating over 2,500 calories and over 200 grams of fat. I use a minimum of 12 tablespoons of coconut oil per day. Its really good in recipes! Cellulite is disappearing so I guess that's a plus lol. And my blood sugar crashes finally stopped.
Just to clarify this, a ketogenic diet was intended for the treatment of epilepsy in conjunction with medication to reduce the prevalence of seizures. That IS THE STANDARD of keto. All other variations of the diet to promote weight loss are actually bastardized versions of the original diet to treat epilepsy, specifically in children and adolescents.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2902940/
https://charliefoundation.org/diet-plans/
I'm not offering any advice specifically to @KrazyKrissyy, as a medical condition requires a medical professional, but the following is intended for devout keto followers using the diet for non-neurological and non-medical purposes, AKA genpop keto.
Herein lies the confusion that it was intended for all other people. What most keto "gurus" tout are the purported benefits as it applies to neurological conditions and it's now just barely tapped as a recent study for the general population, with more of a benefit to the treatment of diabetes and insulin resistance, but what they won't mention is that the classic diet with a 4:1 ketogenic ratio of fat:protein is that the children who were placed on this diet, actually weened off that ratio to a more modest diet that included a tapering up of protein to what is considered a modified Atkins diet (MAD) as their seizures were controlled because the abysmally low amount of protein in a child's biology leads to cachexia or sarcopenia in adults. Therefore, as a countermeasure, because of the importance of protein as we age (especially during the adolescent stage to puberty), the efficacy of MAD compared to KD was suggested as perhaps a better method to apply for adult epilepsy.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26859528
Basically, if you have nothing wrong with you, other than being overfat, adhering to a diet (severely high in dietary fat and low in protein) intended to treat a medical condition in order to "biohack" your body into ketosis (a natural survival trait inherent to humans) is asinine.
So, setting labeling/unnecessarily judgmental comments aside (I understand you're frustrated and trying to be extra clear to make your point), I may have learned something.
I would like to confirm my understanding is correct, since you seem to be more knowledgeable than I am regarding difference between these different ways of eating, and won't really have the proper amount of time to dig into academic sources for about a month. I'm not consuming a keto diet, but would like to understand.
If a person has a dietary intake of 1,500 kcal per day, consumes 50g of net carbs per day (I realize this could be less), consumes .8-1g/lean mass lb for protein (which would vary wildly depending on lean weight), and consumes enough fat to round out the number, they are not in a ketogenic diet, but modified Atkins?
As a more concrete example (just in case the above is too abstract), let's use my estimated lean mass of 101.82.
This would be my intake if I were to go into super-low-carb eating (which, again, I am not doing):
Kcal
200 = 50g net carb (13.33%)
404 = 101g protein (26.93%)
896 = ~99.5g fat (59.74%)
Total = 1,500 kcal
This would be MAD and would not qualify as ketogenic?
Thanks for the resource links, BTW, and thanks in advance on the confirmation on this clarified understanding.
Edited to clarify net carb versus carb.0 -
I'm sure Anubis will give you his thoughts but, to me, your basic understanding is correct. The one thing I would parse for clarity is, for an individual, this may be a ketogenic diet or cause an individual to be in ketosis. Others it may not or be in some borderline area where there is some period of the day where ketosis is occuring. But it is not the medical ketogenic protocol detailed about.
The real question in my mind for any individual is: why would I a consider keto or very low carb diet and what benefits can I receive by doing it?
This is very individual. Some have trouble controlling cravings and keto can help. Some have hunger issues and, based on the summary of studies I posted earlier in the thread, there is some evidence. There is also the issue of those that deal with Insulin Resistance. For that group keto or low carb are options to help increase insulin sensitivity. There is some lack of clarity among the studies I've read as to whether it is more beneficial to do keto or will just low carb be enough.
There are also adjunct strategies to help with IR. Intermittent Fasting help increase insulin sensitivity. But the primary and most effective strategy is to reduce weight/ body fat and increase vigorous exercise. Some combination of these 3 strategies are what I used when I was pre-diabetic. I reduced carbs to between 100 ands 150 grams, I practiced IF and I dropped 30lbs while increasing vigorous exercise and it worked like a charm! Last bloodwork was incredibly good with all coronary and diabetes risk factors in the ideal range.
That being said, there is frustration about how many post who about keto. There are knowledgeable practitioners who have have made a logical and reasonable choice to do keto and understand what it does and what it doesn't do.
Then there are the ones who have read a blog or 2 or Fung's book and post ridiculous claims of how keto works and what it can do that, quite honestly, border on delusional! There are more than 2200 studies on PubMed on ketogenic diets and none of them support some of the claims you see made in general on this site and specifically in this thread.
There is lots of great objective summaries and meta-analyses that address the research on keto here: https://sci-fit.net/articles/#Nutrition7 -
MelodiousMermaid wrote: »KrazyKrissyy wrote: »I'm currently on a keto diet for my epilepsy which is a bit different than the standard keto. For neuro conditions it's 80-90% fat, 5-15% protein, 0-5% carbs (which is what I'm following). Fat doesn't fill be up like protein/carbs do unfortunately. The good thing though is my seizures have been decreasing. Surprisingly, I'm rapidly losing weight (Even though that wasn't my original intention) despite eating over 2,500 calories and over 200 grams of fat. I use a minimum of 12 tablespoons of coconut oil per day. Its really good in recipes! Cellulite is disappearing so I guess that's a plus lol. And my blood sugar crashes finally stopped.
Just to clarify this, a ketogenic diet was intended for the treatment of epilepsy in conjunction with medication to reduce the prevalence of seizures. That IS THE STANDARD of keto. All other variations of the diet to promote weight loss are actually bastardized versions of the original diet to treat epilepsy, specifically in children and adolescents.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2902940/
https://charliefoundation.org/diet-plans/
I'm not offering any advice specifically to @KrazyKrissyy, as a medical condition requires a medical professional, but the following is intended for devout keto followers using the diet for non-neurological and non-medical purposes, AKA genpop keto.
Herein lies the confusion that it was intended for all other people. What most keto "gurus" tout are the purported benefits as it applies to neurological conditions and it's now just barely tapped as a recent study for the general population, with more of a benefit to the treatment of diabetes and insulin resistance, but what they won't mention is that the classic diet with a 4:1 ketogenic ratio of fat:protein is that the children who were placed on this diet, actually weened off that ratio to a more modest diet that included a tapering up of protein to what is considered a modified Atkins diet (MAD) as their seizures were controlled because the abysmally low amount of protein in a child's biology leads to cachexia or sarcopenia in adults. Therefore, as a countermeasure, because of the importance of protein as we age (especially during the adolescent stage to puberty), the efficacy of MAD compared to KD was suggested as perhaps a better method to apply for adult epilepsy.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26859528
Basically, if you have nothing wrong with you, other than being overfat, adhering to a diet (severely high in dietary fat and low in protein) intended to treat a medical condition in order to "biohack" your body into ketosis (a natural survival trait inherent to humans) is asinine.
So, setting labeling/unnecessarily judgmental comments aside (I understand you're frustrated and trying to be extra clear to make your point), I may have learned something.
I would like to confirm my understanding is correct, since you seem to be more knowledgeable than I am regarding difference between these different ways of eating, and won't really have the proper amount of time to dig into academic sources for about a month. I'm not consuming a keto diet, but would like to understand.
If a person has a dietary intake of 1,500 kcal per day, consumes 50g of net carbs per day (I realize this could be less), consumes .8-1g/lean mass lb for protein (which would vary wildly depending on lean weight), and consumes enough fat to round out the number, they are not in a ketogenic diet, but modified Atkins?
As a more concrete example (just in case the above is too abstract), let's use my estimated lean mass of 101.82.
This would be my intake if I were to go into super-low-carb eating (which, again, I am not doing):
Kcal
200 = 50g net carb (13.33%)
404 = 101g protein (26.93%)
896 = ~99.5g fat (59.74%)
Total = 1,500 kcal
This would be MAD and would not qualify as ketogenic?
Thanks for the resource links, BTW, and thanks in advance on the confirmation on this clarified understanding.
Edited to clarify net carb versus carb.
"Judgmental comments" perceived aside, a modified Atkins diet is technically ketogenic, by virtue of reducing dietary carbs, but it is a variation of the classic/standard ketogenic diet.
I would actually promote MAD for dieters who wish to follow a low carb diet. If you're a keto advocate, Jeff Volek and Stephen Phinney are two of the most prominent thought leaders - in a positive sense - that actually recommend a modified Atkins version to promote for weight and fat loss. They call it a well-formulated ketogenic diet.
As long as protein needs are met as it applies to your lean body mass, and carbs are restricted, dietary fat becomes the ultimate determinant of meeting caloric goals. It then follows the rules of CICO. If you want to lose fat, eat less dietary fat. If you want to maintain or gain, then increase the dietary fat. In the end, there is no difference between keto/low carb or CICO.. they all follow the laws of thermodynamics.
A ketogenic diet isn't determined by the amount of fat someone ingests, it's determined by the amount of dietary carbs, and to an extent, energy balance, one doesn't ingest.
Without going deep into the biochemistry details of the formation of ketone bodies ad nauseam, if calories are restricted to a low enough degree, 100% carbs can be ketogenic as well.
But to your point, the way you've set up that example of a 1500kcal diet is optimally acceptable as a weight loss diet that follows a ketogenic pattern of carb restriction with proper protein. It's actually a stellar example. Don't get caught up in whether it's considered "ketogenic" or not. The state of ketosis should only be reserved for medical conditions that benefit from higher amounts of ketones. For fat loss, it's unnecessary.5 -
MelodiousMermaid wrote: »KrazyKrissyy wrote: »I'm currently on a keto diet for my epilepsy which is a bit different than the standard keto. For neuro conditions it's 80-90% fat, 5-15% protein, 0-5% carbs (which is what I'm following). Fat doesn't fill be up like protein/carbs do unfortunately. The good thing though is my seizures have been decreasing. Surprisingly, I'm rapidly losing weight (Even though that wasn't my original intention) despite eating over 2,500 calories and over 200 grams of fat. I use a minimum of 12 tablespoons of coconut oil per day. Its really good in recipes! Cellulite is disappearing so I guess that's a plus lol. And my blood sugar crashes finally stopped.
Just to clarify this, a ketogenic diet was intended for the treatment of epilepsy in conjunction with medication to reduce the prevalence of seizures. That IS THE STANDARD of keto. All other variations of the diet to promote weight loss are actually bastardized versions of the original diet to treat epilepsy, specifically in children and adolescents.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2902940/
https://charliefoundation.org/diet-plans/
I'm not offering any advice specifically to @KrazyKrissyy, as a medical condition requires a medical professional, but the following is intended for devout keto followers using the diet for non-neurological and non-medical purposes, AKA genpop keto.
Herein lies the confusion that it was intended for all other people. What most keto "gurus" tout are the purported benefits as it applies to neurological conditions and it's now just barely tapped as a recent study for the general population, with more of a benefit to the treatment of diabetes and insulin resistance, but what they won't mention is that the classic diet with a 4:1 ketogenic ratio of fat:protein is that the children who were placed on this diet, actually weened off that ratio to a more modest diet that included a tapering up of protein to what is considered a modified Atkins diet (MAD) as their seizures were controlled because the abysmally low amount of protein in a child's biology leads to cachexia or sarcopenia in adults. Therefore, as a countermeasure, because of the importance of protein as we age (especially during the adolescent stage to puberty), the efficacy of MAD compared to KD was suggested as perhaps a better method to apply for adult epilepsy.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26859528
Basically, if you have nothing wrong with you, other than being overfat, adhering to a diet (severely high in dietary fat and low in protein) intended to treat a medical condition in order to "biohack" your body into ketosis (a natural survival trait inherent to humans) is asinine.
So, setting labeling/unnecessarily judgmental comments aside (I understand you're frustrated and trying to be extra clear to make your point), I may have learned something.
I would like to confirm my understanding is correct, since you seem to be more knowledgeable than I am regarding difference between these different ways of eating, and won't really have the proper amount of time to dig into academic sources for about a month. I'm not consuming a keto diet, but would like to understand.
If a person has a dietary intake of 1,500 kcal per day, consumes 50g of net carbs per day (I realize this could be less), consumes .8-1g/lean mass lb for protein (which would vary wildly depending on lean weight), and consumes enough fat to round out the number, they are not in a ketogenic diet, but modified Atkins?
As a more concrete example (just in case the above is too abstract), let's use my estimated lean mass of 101.82.
This would be my intake if I were to go into super-low-carb eating (which, again, I am not doing):
Kcal
200 = 50g net carb (13.33%)
404 = 101g protein (26.93%)
896 = ~99.5g fat (59.74%)
Total = 1,500 kcal
This would be MAD and would not qualify as ketogenic?
Thanks for the resource links, BTW, and thanks in advance on the confirmation on this clarified understanding.
Edited to clarify net carb versus carb.
"Judgmental comments" perceived aside, a modified Atkins diet is technically ketogenic, by virtue of reducing dietary carbs, but it is a variation of the classic/standard ketogenic diet.
I would actually promote MAD for dieters who wish to follow a low carb diet. If you're a keto advocate, Jeff Volek and Stephen Phinney are two of the most prominent thought leaders - in a positive sense - that actually recommend a modified Atkins version to promote for weight and fat loss. They call it a well-formulated ketogenic diet.
As long as protein needs are met as it applies to your lean body mass, and carbs are restricted, dietary fat becomes the ultimate determinant of meeting caloric goals. It then follows the rules of CICO. If you want to lose fat, eat less dietary fat. If you want to maintain or gain, then increase the dietary fat. In the end, there is no difference between keto/low carb or CICO.. they all follow the laws of thermodynamics.
A ketogenic diet isn't determined by the amount of fat someone ingests, it's determined by the amount of dietary carbs, and to an extent, energy balance, one doesn't ingest.
Without going deep into the biochemistry details of the formation of ketone bodies ad nauseam, if calories are restricted to a low enough degree, 100% carbs can be ketogenic as well.
But to your point, the way you've set up that example of a 1500kcal diet is optimally acceptable as a weight loss diet that follows a ketogenic pattern of carb restriction with proper protein. It's actually a stellar example. Don't get caught up in whether it's considered "ketogenic" or not. The state of ketosis should only be reserved for medical conditions that benefit from higher amounts of ketones. For fat loss, it's unnecessary.
I agree with all of this.
Below 50g is generally considered to be ketogenic. Some healthy people who are active, and timing carbs around exercise, will even be ketogenic at levels quite a bit higher than this. A person with insulin resistance may be ketogenic only at lower levels of carbs. But the main point of ketones is for health reasons, such as brain injury and diseases, and not for weight loss.
People like ketogenic diets because of how it makes them feel - the improved health that many may experience.
Reducing carbs may result in appetite suppression, which many dieters appreciate for weight loss. Reduced carbs may also result in ketosis, but the ketones are not thought to be what causes the reduced appetite.
... as I understand it.
For more work by Phinney and Volek, read The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living, The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance, and the New Atkins Diet.3 -
KrazyKrissyy wrote: »@kpk54 I used coconut oil to make fat bombs. I'm sorry the coconut oil didn't agree with you have you been tested for any digestive issues as well? Different digestive problems can and can't handle different foods.
Thanks for the reply. It wasn't that coconut oil disagreed with me. I got only some of my fats from coconut oil so never pushed the entire amount (1200 fat calories) to coconut oil. MCT Oil was a bit different. I eased my way up to 3-4 tablespoons but it definitely didn't agree with me in that amount. Without it, I fortunately have no digestive issues.
I haven't eaten a MTKD for over a year. I trialed it for only a year and only for Dystonia. No luck but that's ok. If it worked for this disorder, I guess it might be medically known as with epilepsy. A hope and a prayer was all it was for me. Dystonia is not progressive and I've learned what aggravates it in me. I'm otherwise healthy and am now just trying to keep it that way at age 64.
I hope you obtain 100% freedom from seizures. Forever! 
2 -
KrazyKrissyy wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »KrazyKrissyy wrote: »I'm currently on a keto diet for my epilepsy which is a bit different than the standard keto. For neuro conditions it's 80-90% fat, 5-15% protein, 0-5% carbs (which is what I'm following). Fat doesn't fill be up like protein/carbs do unfortunately. The good thing though is my seizures have been decreasing. Surprisingly, I'm rapidly losing weight (Even though that wasn't my original intention) despite eating over 2,500 calories and over 200 grams of fat. I use a minimum of 12 tablespoons of coconut oil per day. Its really good in recipes! Cellulite is disappearing so I guess that's a plus lol. And my blood sugar crashes finally stopped.
were your seizures due to your blood sugar crashing? are you diabetic too or? what do you mean rapidly losing weight? and how do you measure your food intake? because rapid weight loss is usually from a very high deficit which should not be the case if you are really eating 2500 calories, unless you are on the go all day every day,or you have an underlying health issue causing it that you dont know about.
Its a possibility that my seizures are due to low blood sugar, although ive had seizures since age 7. I dont have diabetes but my father does. I have reactive hypoglycemia, epilepsy, IBS, Gastroparesis, and SIBO. Veggies, fruits, grains, nuts, seeds, beans, wheat, and most dairy makes me look 5 months pregnant along with gas, cramps, bowel issues (my stomach will temporarily swell). My safe foods are meat, butter, oils, nut butters, cream cheese, etc. Anything low in fiber (however, i have to avoid refined foods and sugars because of my reactive hypoglycemia). Coconut oil helps me use the bathroom. The IBS-C, Gastroparesis, and methane SIBO causes chronic constipation and slow motility. TMI...but...Coconut oil gives me the runs and I'd rather have that then being backed up for 3-4 weeks. I use a measuring spoon (tablespoon) to fill ice cube trays with coconut oil, nut butter, and stevia and freeze. They taste great! I go through 1-2 trays per day.
if your seizures are caused by low blood sugar then you need to find a way if you havent already to keep it stable. epilepsy occurs whether you have hypoglycemia or not. I understand eating foods low in fiber if it causes you issues. there are a few people here in MFP who are the same way. The thing is having the runs isnt good either. I understand the need for not wanting to be constipated.my sister has had seizures since she was 6 months old. it took 20+ years to find a spot on her brain that was causing them. she had laser surgery to remove the mass and shes been seizure free.
I saw what she went through when she was younger.I cant comment on your other health issues such as the IBS-C,gastoparesis and so on because I can honestly say I know nothing about those things. never heard of the SIBO thing. But I can see where the rapid weight loss can come from having all those issues and with things going right through you.2 -
KrazyKrissyy wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »KrazyKrissyy wrote: »I'm currently on a keto diet for my epilepsy which is a bit different than the standard keto. For neuro conditions it's 80-90% fat, 5-15% protein, 0-5% carbs (which is what I'm following). Fat doesn't fill be up like protein/carbs do unfortunately. The good thing though is my seizures have been decreasing. Surprisingly, I'm rapidly losing weight (Even though that wasn't my original intention) despite eating over 2,500 calories and over 200 grams of fat. I use a minimum of 12 tablespoons of coconut oil per day. Its really good in recipes! Cellulite is disappearing so I guess that's a plus lol. And my blood sugar crashes finally stopped.
were your seizures due to your blood sugar crashing? are you diabetic too or? what do you mean rapidly losing weight? and how do you measure your food intake? because rapid weight loss is usually from a very high deficit which should not be the case if you are really eating 2500 calories, unless you are on the go all day every day,or you have an underlying health issue causing it that you dont know about.
Its a possibility that my seizures are due to low blood sugar, although ive had seizures since age 7. I dont have diabetes but my father does. I have reactive hypoglycemia, epilepsy, IBS, Gastroparesis, and SIBO. Veggies, fruits, grains, nuts, seeds, beans, wheat, and most dairy makes me look 5 months pregnant along with gas, cramps, bowel issues (my stomach will temporarily swell). My safe foods are meat, butter, oils, nut butters, cream cheese, etc. Anything low in fiber (however, i have to avoid refined foods and sugars because of my reactive hypoglycemia). Coconut oil helps me use the bathroom. The IBS-C, Gastroparesis, and methane SIBO causes chronic constipation and slow motility. TMI...but...Coconut oil gives me the runs and I'd rather have that then being backed up for 3-4 weeks. I use a measuring spoon (tablespoon) to fill ice cube trays with coconut oil, nut butter, and stevia and freeze. They taste great! I go through 1-2 trays per day.
Does the high fat bother your gastroparesis? I have severe gastroparesis (70% left at 4 hours) and Crohn's (with an ileostomy so constipation isn't an issue just slow output) and I have been told low fibre, low/moderate fat as fat apparently slows motility.1 -
crisscott11 wrote: »Yes? No? Why?
What? No "maybe"?0 -
@anubis609 : Thank you for your reply with the additional information. I do have mild epileptic episodes from time to time and that and the "clearer thinking"/appetite suppression are what made me think to give it a try. I did try it last summer for a few months, but found I love root veggies and cottage cheese way too much to go that low every day. I've since shifted to lower-carb, but not ketogenic (unless I can become one of those special people who can use workouts and timing to get things settled).
It is interesting learning more about the various aspects. I will definitely take the time to do so sometime after tax season. 2 -
That being said, there is frustration about how many post who about keto. There are knowledgeable practitioners who have have made a logical and reasonable choice to do keto and understand what it does and what it doesn't do.
Then there are the ones who have read a blog or 2 or Fung's book and post ridiculous claims of how keto works and what it can do that, quite honestly, border on delusional! There are more than 2200 studies on PubMed on ketogenic diets and none of them support some of the claims you see made in general on this site and specifically in this thread.
I couldn't have said it better myself.
5 -
singingflutelady wrote: »KrazyKrissyy wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »KrazyKrissyy wrote: »I'm currently on a keto diet for my epilepsy which is a bit different than the standard keto. For neuro conditions it's 80-90% fat, 5-15% protein, 0-5% carbs (which is what I'm following). Fat doesn't fill be up like protein/carbs do unfortunately. The good thing though is my seizures have been decreasing. Surprisingly, I'm rapidly losing weight (Even though that wasn't my original intention) despite eating over 2,500 calories and over 200 grams of fat. I use a minimum of 12 tablespoons of coconut oil per day. Its really good in recipes! Cellulite is disappearing so I guess that's a plus lol. And my blood sugar crashes finally stopped.
were your seizures due to your blood sugar crashing? are you diabetic too or? what do you mean rapidly losing weight? and how do you measure your food intake? because rapid weight loss is usually from a very high deficit which should not be the case if you are really eating 2500 calories, unless you are on the go all day every day,or you have an underlying health issue causing it that you dont know about.
Its a possibility that my seizures are due to low blood sugar, although ive had seizures since age 7. I dont have diabetes but my father does. I have reactive hypoglycemia, epilepsy, IBS, Gastroparesis, and SIBO. Veggies, fruits, grains, nuts, seeds, beans, wheat, and most dairy makes me look 5 months pregnant along with gas, cramps, bowel issues (my stomach will temporarily swell). My safe foods are meat, butter, oils, nut butters, cream cheese, etc. Anything low in fiber (however, i have to avoid refined foods and sugars because of my reactive hypoglycemia). Coconut oil helps me use the bathroom. The IBS-C, Gastroparesis, and methane SIBO causes chronic constipation and slow motility. TMI...but...Coconut oil gives me the runs and I'd rather have that then being backed up for 3-4 weeks. I use a measuring spoon (tablespoon) to fill ice cube trays with coconut oil, nut butter, and stevia and freeze. They taste great! I go through 1-2 trays per day.
Does the high fat bother your gastroparesis? I have severe gastroparesis (70% left at 4 hours) and Crohn's (with an ileostomy so constipation isn't an issue just slow output) and I have been told low fibre, low/moderate fat as fat apparently slows motility.
Fat does not bother me. Only fiber bothers my GP. Everyone who has GP will have their own severity of it. Your's sounds pretty bad. Do what you need to do to manage your symptoms xoxo0 -
MelodiousMermaid wrote: »@anubis609 : Thank you for your reply with the additional information. I do have mild epileptic episodes from time to time and that and the "clearer thinking"/appetite suppression are what made me think to give it a try. I did try it last summer for a few months, but found I love root veggies and cottage cheese way too much to go that low every day. I've since shifted to lower-carb, but not ketogenic (unless I can become one of those special people who can use workouts and timing to get things settled).
It is interesting learning more about the various aspects. I will definitely take the time to do so sometime after tax season.
You're welcome. There are positive aspects to a reduced carb/ketogenic diet, as @mmapags mentioned. My mother also has random epileptic episodes, which might possibly be attributed to her glioblastoma, though, it's not definitive. I have her following a low carb diet in conjunction with general strength training and that combination seems to alleviate her symptoms over just the diet alone. Whether her symptoms might be better treated on a true ketogenic diet are unknown since she adheres better to a lower carb diet.
It's going to be different for everyone and again, outside of medical advice, online advice should be taken with a grain of salt. Find out what works for you along with the help of your healthcare team, or at least an approved team of practitioners that support your goal.2 -
All in with Keto here, just passed the 2 year mark after losing 140lb. It took me 10 months initially to lose that weight.
I am at the point where I let all the detractors detract from Keto all they want. Straight CICO with carbs failed me throughout my entire life repeatedly - so to pitch that to me as a solution is absurd. Keto, though? It works. It has all the hallmarks of a "successful" way to eat for me. I can eat things I really enjoy without having to worry about feeling hungry afterwards. Eating fat has been nothing short of a miracle for me, and I'm glad it's finally been vindicated as a nutrient.
My only wish is that I wish I knew I could do this 30 years ago when I still had my youth. But the industry was too busy cranking out Snackwells sugar cookies and calling them healthy. And I bought into that spiel and just kept growing to 330lb. No more. I'm eating fat and staying thin. And if it kills me, fine. I'll die pretty. But that doesn't look like it's going to happen. By every measurable metric available to me and my doctor, I am as healthy as can be eating this way. This is how I will continue to eat.
I don't think Keto is for everyone. There are people who can have absolutely no problems with straight CICO, eat everything under the sun, and be happy doing so within their own personal limits/confines. But me? Nah, man. I am straight up hungry all the time when I eat carbs. Call it "mental", call it physiological, call it whatever the F you want. I don't want to touch carbs anymore if I can avoid them. The only carbs I ingest now are the "incidentals" - less than 8g/day or thereabout - usually with the heavy whipping cream I put in my coffee.
At this point, they can take away my ribeyes when they pry them from my cold, dead hands. I am going to eat this way, and I don't care how many nutritionists say I'm doomed in doing so. They can respectfully eat my shorts.14 -
But the industry was too busy cranking out Snackwells sugar cookies and calling them healthy. And I bought into that spiel and just kept growing to 330lb.
In any era, people who decide to eat whatever the food industry is currently touting without regard to their energy needs and what works for their lifestyle run the risk of being overweight. This isn't something that is specific to an era when low fat cookies were being promoted.
As someone who was alive during the low fat era, I doubt most people were under the impression that pre-made cookies were some kind of magical health food. Just like today, people used their brain to evaluate advertising claims. My family was perfectly able to understand that cookies, even low fat ones, were cookies and should be consumed in a quantity that didn't crowd out the rest of the foods one required to meet nutritional needs. This meant our meals were focused on foods like meat, vegetables, grains, dairy products, and beans. Sometimes there were cookies, many times there were not.
I realize not everyone has the advantage of coming from a family where you're exposed to a variety of foods and learn about balancing meals to meet nutritional needs, but at what point do we take responsibility for our own decision to eat cookies?
8 -
All in with Keto here, just passed the 2 year mark after losing 140lb. It took me 10 months initially to lose that weight.
I am at the point where I let all the detractors detract from Keto all they want. Straight CICO with carbs failed me throughout my entire life repeatedly - so to pitch that to me as a solution is absurd. Keto, though? It works. It has all the hallmarks of a "successful" way to eat for me. I can eat things I really enjoy without having to worry about feeling hungry afterwards. Eating fat has been nothing short of a miracle for me, and I'm glad it's finally been vindicated as a nutrient.
My only wish is that I wish I knew I could do this 30 years ago when I still had my youth. But the industry was too busy cranking out Snackwells sugar cookies and calling them healthy. And I bought into that spiel and just kept growing to 330lb. No more. I'm eating fat and staying thin. And if it kills me, fine. I'll die pretty. But that doesn't look like it's going to happen. By every measurable metric available to me and my doctor, I am as healthy as can be eating this way. This is how I will continue to eat.
I don't think Keto is for everyone. There are people who can have absolutely no problems with straight CICO, eat everything under the sun, and be happy doing so within their own personal limits/confines. But me? Nah, man. I am straight up hungry all the time when I eat carbs. Call it "mental", call it physiological, call it whatever the F you want. I don't want to touch carbs anymore if I can avoid them. The only carbs I ingest now are the "incidentals" - less than 8g/day or thereabout - usually with the heavy whipping cream I put in my coffee.
At this point, they can take away my ribeyes when they pry them from my cold, dead hands. I am going to eat this way, and I don't care how many nutritionists say I'm doomed in doing so. They can respectfully eat my shorts.
The only thing I disagree with is this idea of "straight CICO". What is that? CICO just is... regardless of the diet you choose.
That said, congrats on your success...9
This discussion has been closed.
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