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Why do people deny CICO ?
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https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/69/6/1189/4714941
In response to those who lose weight have screwed up metabolisms:
RESULTS:
A stepwise multiple regression found lean mass, fat mass, age, and sex to be the best predictors of RMR in both groups. After adjusting RMR for these variables, we found no significant difference in RMR (5926 +/- 106 and 6015 +/- 104 kJ/d) between the 2 groups (P = 0.35).
CONCLUSION:
These results show that in at least some reduced-obese individuals there does not seem to be a permanent obligatory reduction in RMR beyond the expected reduction for a reduced lean mass.
I’m not sure this study says what you think it says. This is a National Weight Control Registry study. To be enrolled in the study you have to have lost at least 30 pounds and kept it off for at least one year. Among THOSE specific individuals there is not a significant RMR difference. That’s why they’re in the study, and why they haven’t regained the weight. Unfortunately, the majority of individuals don’t keep it off for a year. They regain the weight and experience sustained reductions in RMR. But those individuals are not in this study. I think if you read the study abstract you’ll see that they are clear that this finding is not generalizable.
This pretty much says it all:
https://bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/you-are-not-different.html/
Need that Awesome button back.7 -
People hear and believe only what they are interested in hearing and believing5
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Everyone agrees (or should) that you can only lose weight if you achieve an energy deficit. Anything else is literally impossible. No argument there. My objection is to those who reflexively respond with comments like “you’re eating more than you think you are” in response to requests for help from individuals who are having difficulty losing weight. This quote from the post quoted above captures what I’ve been trying to say:
“The research, however, is very clear: not everybody has it as easy as some folks do. Some people’s bodies are, in fact, demonstrably more resistant to weight loss (or gain) than others. Not that they can’t lose (or gain) weight but it comes off or on more slowly. More accurately, their bodies fight back harder.
Researchers call these folks Diet Resistant and the reasons behind this resistance is just starting to be determined. It probably has to do with how these individuals brains perceive changes in caloric intake which determines how their brains react to those changes. Some people’s bodies simply increase metabolic rate more quickly (or drop it more quickly) in response to increased or decreased calories. You can see similar variations in terms of what’s lost during dieting; given the same diet and exercise program, some people will lose a lot more muscle than another.”
So given that individuals respond differently to identical levels of energy deficit, suggestions to cut calories further, or increase exercise significantly, can be unhelpful. The research is pretty clear that the metabolic adaptation to weight loss is proportional to the energy deficit. In other words, the greater the caloric restriction or energy deficit, the harder the body will fight back to maintain weight. And some individual’s bodies will simply fight back harder than others. Even if they manage to lose weight, those metabolic adaptations will make it extremely difficult to maintain the weight loss. For those individuals a slower weight loss at less of an energy deficit will be more effective, more likely to be tolerated, and hopefully result in sustained weight loss. So suggestions to 230 pound men with a BMR of 1800 and TDEE of 2500 to cut calories to 1500/day are not only dangerous, they are also likely unhelpful. And unfortunately I’ve seen this advice on this forum more than once, with CICO as the justification. It might be more helpful to suggest that they measure and weigh carefully for a week and ensure that they’re eating what they think they are, and if they actually are eating consistently below their BMR, try increasing calories to 500 below TDEE for a month and see how it goes.15 -
Everyone agrees (or should) that you can only lose weight if you achieve an energy deficit. Anything else is literally impossible. No argument there. My objection is to those who reflexively respond with comments like “you’re eating more than you think you are” in response to requests for help from individuals who are having difficulty losing weight. This quote from the post quoted above captures what I’ve been trying to say:
“The research, however, is very clear: not everybody has it as easy as some folks do. Some people’s bodies are, in fact, demonstrably more resistant to weight loss (or gain) than others. Not that they can’t lose (or gain) weight but it comes off or on more slowly. More accurately, their bodies fight back harder.
Researchers call these folks Diet Resistant and the reasons behind this resistance is just starting to be determined. It probably has to do with how these individuals brains perceive changes in caloric intake which determines how their brains react to those changes. Some people’s bodies simply increase metabolic rate more quickly (or drop it more quickly) in response to increased or decreased calories. You can see similar variations in terms of what’s lost during dieting; given the same diet and exercise program, some people will lose a lot more muscle than another.”
So given that individuals respond differently to identical levels of energy deficit, suggestions to cut calories further, or increase exercise significantly, can be unhelpful. The research is pretty clear that the metabolic adaptation to weight loss is proportional to the energy deficit. In other words, the greater the caloric restriction or energy deficit, the harder the body will fight back to maintain weight. And some individual’s bodies will simply fight back harder than others. Even if they manage to lose weight, those metabolic adaptations will make it extremely difficult to maintain the weight loss. For those individuals a slower weight loss at less of an energy deficit will be more effective, more likely to be tolerated, and hopefully result in sustained weight loss. So suggestions to 230 pound men with a BMR of 1800 and TDEE of 2500 to cut calories to 1500/day are not only dangerous, they are also likely unhelpful. And unfortunately I’ve seen this advice on this forum more than once, with CICO as the justification. It might be more helpful to suggest that they measure and weigh carefully for a week and ensure that they’re eating what they think they are, and if they actually are eating consistently below their BMR, try increasing calories to 500 below TDEE for a month and see how it goes.
Are you suggesting that posters here are told to lower their calories if they aren't losing weight, without anyone suggesting they tighten up their logging to ensure they are really eating what they think they are? Are you suggesting that no one here routinely recommends diet breaks to posters who seem to be logging well but not losing?
You made this assertion back on page 6 of this thread, and the two threads you held up as examples were refuted.
Look, I'm sure there are unfortunately threads that only get one ore two newbie replies and then sink down the recent posts list with no good advice, especially in the Introductions and Getting Started threads. But the overall stance of this community is that the key is to tighten up your logging, reconsider your exercise burns, open your diary for help, and consider diet breaks. Mis-characterizing what goes on here doesn't seem like a great choice, considering this thread in particular is full of posters who give the very advice you're claiming is lacking.25 -
Everyone agrees (or should) that you can only lose weight if you achieve an energy deficit. Anything else is literally impossible. No argument there. My objection is to those who reflexively respond with comments like “you’re eating more than you think you are” in response to requests for help from individuals who are having difficulty losing weight. This quote from the post quoted above captures what I’ve been trying to say:
“The research, however, is very clear: not everybody has it as easy as some folks do. Some people’s bodies are, in fact, demonstrably more resistant to weight loss (or gain) than others. Not that they can’t lose (or gain) weight but it comes off or on more slowly. More accurately, their bodies fight back harder.
Researchers call these folks Diet Resistant and the reasons behind this resistance is just starting to be determined. It probably has to do with how these individuals brains perceive changes in caloric intake which determines how their brains react to those changes. Some people’s bodies simply increase metabolic rate more quickly (or drop it more quickly) in response to increased or decreased calories. You can see similar variations in terms of what’s lost during dieting; given the same diet and exercise program, some people will lose a lot more muscle than another.”
So given that individuals respond differently to identical levels of energy deficit, suggestions to cut calories further, or increase exercise significantly, can be unhelpful. The research is pretty clear that the metabolic adaptation to weight loss is proportional to the energy deficit. In other words, the greater the caloric restriction or energy deficit, the harder the body will fight back to maintain weight. And some individual’s bodies will simply fight back harder than others. Even if they manage to lose weight, those metabolic adaptations will make it extremely difficult to maintain the weight loss. For those individuals a slower weight loss at less of an energy deficit will be more effective, more likely to be tolerated, and hopefully result in sustained weight loss. So suggestions to 230 pound men with a BMR of 1800 and TDEE of 2500 to cut calories to 1500/day are not only dangerous, they are also likely unhelpful. And unfortunately I’ve seen this advice on this forum more than once, with CICO as the justification. It might be more helpful to suggest that they measure and weigh carefully for a week and ensure that they’re eating what they think they are, and if they actually are eating consistently below their BMR, try increasing calories to 500 below TDEE for a month and see how it goes.
Are you suggesting that posters here are told to lower their calories if they aren't losing weight, without anyone suggesting they tighten up their logging to ensure they are really eating what they think they are? Are you suggesting that no one here routinely recommends diet breaks to posters who seem to be logging well but not losing?
You made this assertion back on page 6 of this thread, and the two threads you held up as examples were refuted.
Look, I'm sure there are unfortunately threads that only get one ore two newbie replies and then sink down the recent posts list with no good advice, especially in the Introductions and Getting Started threads. But the overall stance of this community is that the key is to tighten up your logging, reconsider your exercise burns, open your diary for help, and consider diet breaks. Mis-characterizing what goes on here doesn't seem like a great choice, considering this thread in particular is full of posters who give the very advice you're claiming is lacking.
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terryritter1 wrote: »The fact is that the principle of CICO for weight loss is effective in practice. Recording what you eat and keeping a calorie deficit, which is, at the fundamental level, what causes weight loss, is highly effective process for someone with that goal. But, it's also way too simplistic. Though it is a "simple scientific concept", the body isn't. When you have a biological environment that has higher insulin, that does change how people's bodies manage metabolism.
So, at one level, CICO is a good tool. At deeper level, it's not that simple. Anyone that has a deeper understanding of biology knows this, or should. Just because it is a good methodology doesn't mean it's all things. We argue about this because we want to live in a binary world. Calories matter, not doubt. But, composition does, too.
Ultimately, who's more right isn't important. If CICO works for someone's quest to lose weight, it just doesn't matter (and no blog of an anecdotal nature will convince me otherwise, though I will cheer your success nonetheless).
yeah. I'm finding that there is a cult of conformity around here, that wants to force this idea that calories is the only thing that matters. If that's the case why track nutrients and macros, at all? Yes CICO is great for weight management, but what about your actual health. Your body weight isn't the only thing matters.36 -
mutantspicy wrote: »terryritter1 wrote: »The fact is that the principle of CICO for weight loss is effective in practice. Recording what you eat and keeping a calorie deficit, which is, at the fundamental level, what causes weight loss, is highly effective process for someone with that goal. But, it's also way too simplistic. Though it is a "simple scientific concept", the body isn't. When you have a biological environment that has higher insulin, that does change how people's bodies manage metabolism.
So, at one level, CICO is a good tool. At deeper level, it's not that simple. Anyone that has a deeper understanding of biology knows this, or should. Just because it is a good methodology doesn't mean it's all things. We argue about this because we want to live in a binary world. Calories matter, not doubt. But, composition does, too.
Ultimately, who's more right isn't important. If CICO works for someone's quest to lose weight, it just doesn't matter (and no blog of an anecdotal nature will convince me otherwise, though I will cheer your success nonetheless).
yeah. I'm finding that there is a cult of conformity around here, that wants to force this idea that calories is the only thing that matters. If that's the case why track nutrients and macros, at all? Yes CICO is great for weight management, but what about your actual health. Your body weight isn't the only thing matters.
I have never seen anyone here claim that our bodies don't have specific nutritional needs, needs that go beyond just calories.
Are you sure you aren't simply misunderstanding some people who are arguing that our weight (which is just one part of our physical state) is determined by the balance of calories in versus calories out?16 -
janejellyroll wrote: »mutantspicy wrote: »terryritter1 wrote: »The fact is that the principle of CICO for weight loss is effective in practice. Recording what you eat and keeping a calorie deficit, which is, at the fundamental level, what causes weight loss, is highly effective process for someone with that goal. But, it's also way too simplistic. Though it is a "simple scientific concept", the body isn't. When you have a biological environment that has higher insulin, that does change how people's bodies manage metabolism.
So, at one level, CICO is a good tool. At deeper level, it's not that simple. Anyone that has a deeper understanding of biology knows this, or should. Just because it is a good methodology doesn't mean it's all things. We argue about this because we want to live in a binary world. Calories matter, not doubt. But, composition does, too.
Ultimately, who's more right isn't important. If CICO works for someone's quest to lose weight, it just doesn't matter (and no blog of an anecdotal nature will convince me otherwise, though I will cheer your success nonetheless).
yeah. I'm finding that there is a cult of conformity around here, that wants to force this idea that calories is the only thing that matters. If that's the case why track nutrients and macros, at all? Yes CICO is great for weight management, but what about your actual health. Your body weight isn't the only thing matters.
I have never seen anyone here claim that our bodies don't have specific nutritional needs, needs that go beyond just calories.
Are you sure you aren't simply misunderstanding some people who are arguing that our weight (which is just one part of our physical state) is determined by the balance of calories in versus calories out?
I really do think the problem is people skimming through threads and seeing what they want to see.
I mean if an OP just posts that they can't lose weight even though they're eating clean, sure they might just get told that it doesn't matter what they eat, calories determine weight loss. Because we can only respond to the info we're given, and deal with the immediate problem at hand. And even then, I'd guess some posters will ask them to open their food log and suggest a food scale.
And if someone ASKS about nutrition, they'll get more nuanced answers about nutrition. But if they ask about weight loss, we're not going to dissect every aspect of their health and well being, we're going to talk about weight loss and calories.
This is a public Internet forum, not a consult with a doctor, RD, and therapist23 -
mutantspicy wrote: »terryritter1 wrote: »The fact is that the principle of CICO for weight loss is effective in practice. Recording what you eat and keeping a calorie deficit, which is, at the fundamental level, what causes weight loss, is highly effective process for someone with that goal. But, it's also way too simplistic. Though it is a "simple scientific concept", the body isn't. When you have a biological environment that has higher insulin, that does change how people's bodies manage metabolism.
So, at one level, CICO is a good tool. At deeper level, it's not that simple. Anyone that has a deeper understanding of biology knows this, or should. Just because it is a good methodology doesn't mean it's all things. We argue about this because we want to live in a binary world. Calories matter, not doubt. But, composition does, too.
Ultimately, who's more right isn't important. If CICO works for someone's quest to lose weight, it just doesn't matter (and no blog of an anecdotal nature will convince me otherwise, though I will cheer your success nonetheless).
yeah. I'm finding that there is a cult of conformity around here, that wants to force this idea that calories is the only thing that matters. If that's the case why track nutrients and macros, at all? Yes CICO is great for weight management, but what about your actual health. Your body weight isn't the only thing matters.
I would say the vast majority of veteran posters are very much into health and eat very well for the most part and exercise regularly. When people say calories are what matter for weight management, they're not saying that nutrition doesn't matter...and usually it is stated that one should eat well for the most part to meet nutritional needs.17 -
mutantspicy wrote: »terryritter1 wrote: »The fact is that the principle of CICO for weight loss is effective in practice. Recording what you eat and keeping a calorie deficit, which is, at the fundamental level, what causes weight loss, is highly effective process for someone with that goal. But, it's also way too simplistic. Though it is a "simple scientific concept", the body isn't. When you have a biological environment that has higher insulin, that does change how people's bodies manage metabolism.
So, at one level, CICO is a good tool. At deeper level, it's not that simple. Anyone that has a deeper understanding of biology knows this, or should. Just because it is a good methodology doesn't mean it's all things. We argue about this because we want to live in a binary world. Calories matter, not doubt. But, composition does, too.
Ultimately, who's more right isn't important. If CICO works for someone's quest to lose weight, it just doesn't matter (and no blog of an anecdotal nature will convince me otherwise, though I will cheer your success nonetheless).
yeah. I'm finding that there is a cult of conformity around here, that wants to force this idea that calories is the only thing that matters. If that's the case why track nutrients and macros, at all? Yes CICO is great for weight management, but what about your actual health. Your body weight isn't the only thing matters.
health != weight management
performance != weight management
health != performance16 -
janejellyroll wrote: »mutantspicy wrote: »terryritter1 wrote: »The fact is that the principle of CICO for weight loss is effective in practice. Recording what you eat and keeping a calorie deficit, which is, at the fundamental level, what causes weight loss, is highly effective process for someone with that goal. But, it's also way too simplistic. Though it is a "simple scientific concept", the body isn't. When you have a biological environment that has higher insulin, that does change how people's bodies manage metabolism.
So, at one level, CICO is a good tool. At deeper level, it's not that simple. Anyone that has a deeper understanding of biology knows this, or should. Just because it is a good methodology doesn't mean it's all things. We argue about this because we want to live in a binary world. Calories matter, not doubt. But, composition does, too.
Ultimately, who's more right isn't important. If CICO works for someone's quest to lose weight, it just doesn't matter (and no blog of an anecdotal nature will convince me otherwise, though I will cheer your success nonetheless).
yeah. I'm finding that there is a cult of conformity around here, that wants to force this idea that calories is the only thing that matters. If that's the case why track nutrients and macros, at all? Yes CICO is great for weight management, but what about your actual health. Your body weight isn't the only thing matters.
I have never seen anyone here claim that our bodies don't have specific nutritional needs, needs that go beyond just calories.
Are you sure you aren't simply misunderstanding some people who are arguing that our weight (which is just one part of our physical state) is determined by the balance of calories in versus calories out?
I really do think the problem is people skimming through threads and seeing what they want to see.
I mean if an OP just posts that they can't lose weight even though they're eating clean, sure they might just get told that it doesn't matter what they eat, calories determine weight loss. Because we can only respond to the info we're given, and deal with the immediate problem at hand. And even then, I'd guess some posters will ask them to open their food log and suggest a food scale.
And if someone ASKS about nutrition, they'll get more nuanced answers about nutrition. But if they ask about weight loss, we're not going to dissect every aspect of their health and well being, we're going to talk about weight loss and calories.
This is a public Internet forum, not a consult with a doctor, RD, and therapist
I do make a basic assumption (unless I see things in the post that suggest otherwise) that people posting here are aware of things like vitamins and understand that they play a role in our wellbeing.
I know not everyone has an understanding of basic nutrition and sometimes it is necessary for threads to veer into those areas even when they begin with a focus on weight loss, but when someone is asking how to lose weight, I think it's ridiculous to assume they also need a lecture on, say, making sure they get enough vitamin C.12 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »mutantspicy wrote: »terryritter1 wrote: »The fact is that the principle of CICO for weight loss is effective in practice. Recording what you eat and keeping a calorie deficit, which is, at the fundamental level, what causes weight loss, is highly effective process for someone with that goal. But, it's also way too simplistic. Though it is a "simple scientific concept", the body isn't. When you have a biological environment that has higher insulin, that does change how people's bodies manage metabolism.
So, at one level, CICO is a good tool. At deeper level, it's not that simple. Anyone that has a deeper understanding of biology knows this, or should. Just because it is a good methodology doesn't mean it's all things. We argue about this because we want to live in a binary world. Calories matter, not doubt. But, composition does, too.
Ultimately, who's more right isn't important. If CICO works for someone's quest to lose weight, it just doesn't matter (and no blog of an anecdotal nature will convince me otherwise, though I will cheer your success nonetheless).
yeah. I'm finding that there is a cult of conformity around here, that wants to force this idea that calories is the only thing that matters. If that's the case why track nutrients and macros, at all? Yes CICO is great for weight management, but what about your actual health. Your body weight isn't the only thing matters.
I would say the vast majority of veteran posters are very much into health and eat very well for the most part and exercise regularly. When people say calories are what matter for weight management, they're not saying that nutrition doesn't matter...and usually it is stated that one should eat well for the most part to meet nutritional needs.
That's fair, I'm fairly new to the forum here. I don't know everyone yet. I've always just used the site, and not the forum. But I keep seeing quite a few people say you can eat whatever you want just your hit calories and you'll be fine. I'm like OK. I'm pretty sure a majority here know that you have to maintain a calorie deficit to lose weight, it seems like an unnecessary mantra.14 -
mutantspicy wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »mutantspicy wrote: »terryritter1 wrote: »The fact is that the principle of CICO for weight loss is effective in practice. Recording what you eat and keeping a calorie deficit, which is, at the fundamental level, what causes weight loss, is highly effective process for someone with that goal. But, it's also way too simplistic. Though it is a "simple scientific concept", the body isn't. When you have a biological environment that has higher insulin, that does change how people's bodies manage metabolism.
So, at one level, CICO is a good tool. At deeper level, it's not that simple. Anyone that has a deeper understanding of biology knows this, or should. Just because it is a good methodology doesn't mean it's all things. We argue about this because we want to live in a binary world. Calories matter, not doubt. But, composition does, too.
Ultimately, who's more right isn't important. If CICO works for someone's quest to lose weight, it just doesn't matter (and no blog of an anecdotal nature will convince me otherwise, though I will cheer your success nonetheless).
yeah. I'm finding that there is a cult of conformity around here, that wants to force this idea that calories is the only thing that matters. If that's the case why track nutrients and macros, at all? Yes CICO is great for weight management, but what about your actual health. Your body weight isn't the only thing matters.
I would say the vast majority of veteran posters are very much into health and eat very well for the most part and exercise regularly. When people say calories are what matter for weight management, they're not saying that nutrition doesn't matter...and usually it is stated that one should eat well for the most part to meet nutritional needs.
That's fair, I'm fairly new to the forum here. I don't know everyone yet. I've always just used the site, and not the forum. But I keep seeing quite a few people say you can eat whatever you want just your hit calories and you'll be fine. I'm like OK. I'm pretty sure a majority here know that you have to maintain a calorie deficit to lose weight, it seems like an unnecessary mantra.
I've been posting here for a few years now. Sadly, it isn't unnecessary to sometimes let people know that you need a calorie deficit to lose weight. Many people don't fully understand how weight loss happens -- they think you need a specific macro range in order to lose weight or that you must "eat clean" or that exercise is required.
We're not typing this stuff just for the fun of it. Those of us who have been helping people for a while have observed the questions that people have, the general types of things that many new to MFP don't seem to know. I don't think any of us would be educating others about calorie deficits if we felt it was unnecessary.
When you see people say "Eat what you want within your calorie goal," that's advice for *weight loss*. You'll see that in threads where people are asking about how to lose weight or why they aren't losing weight. If you'd like to see some different types of advice, check out threads where people are asking for specific nutritional advice (like how to get more vegetables in their diets, how much protein they need, etc).19 -
mutantspicy wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »mutantspicy wrote: »terryritter1 wrote: »The fact is that the principle of CICO for weight loss is effective in practice. Recording what you eat and keeping a calorie deficit, which is, at the fundamental level, what causes weight loss, is highly effective process for someone with that goal. But, it's also way too simplistic. Though it is a "simple scientific concept", the body isn't. When you have a biological environment that has higher insulin, that does change how people's bodies manage metabolism.
So, at one level, CICO is a good tool. At deeper level, it's not that simple. Anyone that has a deeper understanding of biology knows this, or should. Just because it is a good methodology doesn't mean it's all things. We argue about this because we want to live in a binary world. Calories matter, not doubt. But, composition does, too.
Ultimately, who's more right isn't important. If CICO works for someone's quest to lose weight, it just doesn't matter (and no blog of an anecdotal nature will convince me otherwise, though I will cheer your success nonetheless).
yeah. I'm finding that there is a cult of conformity around here, that wants to force this idea that calories is the only thing that matters. If that's the case why track nutrients and macros, at all? Yes CICO is great for weight management, but what about your actual health. Your body weight isn't the only thing matters.
I would say the vast majority of veteran posters are very much into health and eat very well for the most part and exercise regularly. When people say calories are what matter for weight management, they're not saying that nutrition doesn't matter...and usually it is stated that one should eat well for the most part to meet nutritional needs.
That's fair, I'm fairly new to the forum here. I don't know everyone yet. I've always just used the site, and not the forum. But I keep seeing quite a few people say you can eat whatever you want just your hit calories and you'll be fine. I'm like OK. I'm pretty sure a majority here know that you have to maintain a calorie deficit to lose weight, it seems like an unnecessary mantra.
In my experience here, far more newbies know (or think they know) how to eat "healthy". Most of them are confused about calories and what hey need to do to lose weight.16 -
mutantspicy wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »mutantspicy wrote: »terryritter1 wrote: »The fact is that the principle of CICO for weight loss is effective in practice. Recording what you eat and keeping a calorie deficit, which is, at the fundamental level, what causes weight loss, is highly effective process for someone with that goal. But, it's also way too simplistic. Though it is a "simple scientific concept", the body isn't. When you have a biological environment that has higher insulin, that does change how people's bodies manage metabolism.
So, at one level, CICO is a good tool. At deeper level, it's not that simple. Anyone that has a deeper understanding of biology knows this, or should. Just because it is a good methodology doesn't mean it's all things. We argue about this because we want to live in a binary world. Calories matter, not doubt. But, composition does, too.
Ultimately, who's more right isn't important. If CICO works for someone's quest to lose weight, it just doesn't matter (and no blog of an anecdotal nature will convince me otherwise, though I will cheer your success nonetheless).
yeah. I'm finding that there is a cult of conformity around here, that wants to force this idea that calories is the only thing that matters. If that's the case why track nutrients and macros, at all? Yes CICO is great for weight management, but what about your actual health. Your body weight isn't the only thing matters.
I would say the vast majority of veteran posters are very much into health and eat very well for the most part and exercise regularly. When people say calories are what matter for weight management, they're not saying that nutrition doesn't matter...and usually it is stated that one should eat well for the most part to meet nutritional needs.
That's fair, I'm fairly new to the forum here. I don't know everyone yet. I've always just used the site, and not the forum. But I keep seeing quite a few people say you can eat whatever you want just your hit calories and you'll be fine. I'm like OK. I'm pretty sure a majority here know that you have to maintain a calorie deficit to lose weight, it seems like an unnecessary mantra.
But how else would you respond to the numerous posts that begin "I'm eating [insert named food plan] and I never cheat and I'm not losing weight and I'm hungry all the time? All I can think of is a big plate of [insert food prohibited by current diet] and I just don't know what I'm doing wrong!"?
If not a majority, a good minority of new posters (and by extension people new to the site) really don't understand that weight loss comes down to calories, and whatever food plan they're using will only help them lose if it causes them to eat fewer calories than they burn. They tend to use the diary function to track the kinds of foods they're eating rather than the quantity, because they're been convinced by relentless diet industry advertising that weight will magically fall off if they just follow the plan. They will fail again and again if they don't get a grasp on how weight loss actually happens. I've yet to see a thread involving a veteran poster that doesn't also mention nutrition and saity, but when the question is how to lose weight, of course the answers will focus on...how to lose weight.12 -
mutantspicy wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »mutantspicy wrote: »terryritter1 wrote: »The fact is that the principle of CICO for weight loss is effective in practice. Recording what you eat and keeping a calorie deficit, which is, at the fundamental level, what causes weight loss, is highly effective process for someone with that goal. But, it's also way too simplistic. Though it is a "simple scientific concept", the body isn't. When you have a biological environment that has higher insulin, that does change how people's bodies manage metabolism.
So, at one level, CICO is a good tool. At deeper level, it's not that simple. Anyone that has a deeper understanding of biology knows this, or should. Just because it is a good methodology doesn't mean it's all things. We argue about this because we want to live in a binary world. Calories matter, not doubt. But, composition does, too.
Ultimately, who's more right isn't important. If CICO works for someone's quest to lose weight, it just doesn't matter (and no blog of an anecdotal nature will convince me otherwise, though I will cheer your success nonetheless).
yeah. I'm finding that there is a cult of conformity around here, that wants to force this idea that calories is the only thing that matters. If that's the case why track nutrients and macros, at all? Yes CICO is great for weight management, but what about your actual health. Your body weight isn't the only thing matters.
I would say the vast majority of veteran posters are very much into health and eat very well for the most part and exercise regularly. When people say calories are what matter for weight management, they're not saying that nutrition doesn't matter...and usually it is stated that one should eat well for the most part to meet nutritional needs.
That's fair, I'm fairly new to the forum here. I don't know everyone yet. I've always just used the site, and not the forum. But I keep seeing quite a few people say you can eat whatever you want just your hit calories and you'll be fine. I'm like OK. I'm pretty sure a majority here know that you have to maintain a calorie deficit to lose weight, it seems like an unnecessary mantra.
Bear in mind that you have a multitude of people in various states of health and wellness. You have people at 40% bodyfat and people at <10%, some looking to create a deficit, others maintaining, and others in surplus, so making a generalization without understanding the context isn't going to come across well.
The reason people are adamant about CICO is twofold - first of all it's an objective truth. Secondly it provides people wanting to lose weight an understanding that you don't have to restrict yourself from calorie dense food to lose weight.11 -
mutantspicy wrote: »terryritter1 wrote: »The fact is that the principle of CICO for weight loss is effective in practice. Recording what you eat and keeping a calorie deficit, which is, at the fundamental level, what causes weight loss, is highly effective process for someone with that goal. But, it's also way too simplistic. Though it is a "simple scientific concept", the body isn't. When you have a biological environment that has higher insulin, that does change how people's bodies manage metabolism.
So, at one level, CICO is a good tool. At deeper level, it's not that simple. Anyone that has a deeper understanding of biology knows this, or should. Just because it is a good methodology doesn't mean it's all things. We argue about this because we want to live in a binary world. Calories matter, not doubt. But, composition does, too.
Ultimately, who's more right isn't important. If CICO works for someone's quest to lose weight, it just doesn't matter (and no blog of an anecdotal nature will convince me otherwise, though I will cheer your success nonetheless).
yeah. I'm finding that there is a cult of conformity around here, that wants to force this idea that calories is the only thing that matters.
For anything? No, that's not the primary advice on this forum, so it's weird to claim people must conform to that idea. Many people (including me) routinely give advice re protein and re satiety (and how variable it can be) and re nutrition and how important it is for health. It would be hard to find a post from a regular that says, say, having a good overall diet isn't good for health or that protein doesn't matter for things like muscle maintenance, and when people do take the alternative position (protein doesn't matter!), they get major pushback.If that's the case why track nutrients and macros, at all?
I don't think tracking macros (beyond protein) matters for most people, actually, and MFP is not a great place to track nutrients (I do it at Cron). But the answer is nutrition and satiety.Yes CICO is great for weight management, but what about your actual health. Your body weight isn't the only thing matters.
For most, if you are obese, losing weight is the best thing you can do for your health (apart from something like quitting smoking). Yes, nutrition matters, but some find it hard to adjust their diet right away, they find it overwhelming or have the idea they cannot lose if they keep eating the foods they like (in any amount), so it's important IMO to stress both that you don't have to change your diet right away if you cut calories, first, and, second, that even if you improve your diet (and not all fat people eat nutritionally poor diets, I did not), you can still include the foods you love that may not seem like diet foods. Too many people see it as a choice between not thinking about what you eat at all, vs eating only chicken breast and vegetables (no oil!), and stereotypically "healthy" stuff.
And again I think people on MFP often talk up and give good examples for what is a well rounded, satisfying, and nutrient-dense diet; I certainly try to!7 -
mutantspicy wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »mutantspicy wrote: »terryritter1 wrote: »The fact is that the principle of CICO for weight loss is effective in practice. Recording what you eat and keeping a calorie deficit, which is, at the fundamental level, what causes weight loss, is highly effective process for someone with that goal. But, it's also way too simplistic. Though it is a "simple scientific concept", the body isn't. When you have a biological environment that has higher insulin, that does change how people's bodies manage metabolism.
So, at one level, CICO is a good tool. At deeper level, it's not that simple. Anyone that has a deeper understanding of biology knows this, or should. Just because it is a good methodology doesn't mean it's all things. We argue about this because we want to live in a binary world. Calories matter, not doubt. But, composition does, too.
Ultimately, who's more right isn't important. If CICO works for someone's quest to lose weight, it just doesn't matter (and no blog of an anecdotal nature will convince me otherwise, though I will cheer your success nonetheless).
yeah. I'm finding that there is a cult of conformity around here, that wants to force this idea that calories is the only thing that matters. If that's the case why track nutrients and macros, at all? Yes CICO is great for weight management, but what about your actual health. Your body weight isn't the only thing matters.
I would say the vast majority of veteran posters are very much into health and eat very well for the most part and exercise regularly. When people say calories are what matter for weight management, they're not saying that nutrition doesn't matter...and usually it is stated that one should eat well for the most part to meet nutritional needs.
That's fair, I'm fairly new to the forum here. I don't know everyone yet. I've always just used the site, and not the forum. But I keep seeing quite a few people say you can eat whatever you want just your hit calories and you'll be fine. I'm like OK. I'm pretty sure a majority here know that you have to maintain a calorie deficit to lose weight, it seems like an unnecessary mantra.
I've been on this forum for about 5.5 years...ironically enough there are a great many people who don't know how weight loss/management works. There are a lot of people who don't even understand what a calorie deficit is or that their target given to them by MFP is their calorie deficit.
A lot of times, people just need to focus on the basics first and let things evolve. I think deep down, people know what quality nutrition is and in my experience, when people start logging, their diets eventually evolve to some extent or another.
I think you will also see more in depth nutritional information provided in the Food and Nutrition boards vs the General weight loss board.
7 -
mutantspicy wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »mutantspicy wrote: »terryritter1 wrote: »The fact is that the principle of CICO for weight loss is effective in practice. Recording what you eat and keeping a calorie deficit, which is, at the fundamental level, what causes weight loss, is highly effective process for someone with that goal. But, it's also way too simplistic. Though it is a "simple scientific concept", the body isn't. When you have a biological environment that has higher insulin, that does change how people's bodies manage metabolism.
So, at one level, CICO is a good tool. At deeper level, it's not that simple. Anyone that has a deeper understanding of biology knows this, or should. Just because it is a good methodology doesn't mean it's all things. We argue about this because we want to live in a binary world. Calories matter, not doubt. But, composition does, too.
Ultimately, who's more right isn't important. If CICO works for someone's quest to lose weight, it just doesn't matter (and no blog of an anecdotal nature will convince me otherwise, though I will cheer your success nonetheless).
yeah. I'm finding that there is a cult of conformity around here, that wants to force this idea that calories is the only thing that matters. If that's the case why track nutrients and macros, at all? Yes CICO is great for weight management, but what about your actual health. Your body weight isn't the only thing matters.
I would say the vast majority of veteran posters are very much into health and eat very well for the most part and exercise regularly. When people say calories are what matter for weight management, they're not saying that nutrition doesn't matter...and usually it is stated that one should eat well for the most part to meet nutritional needs.
That's fair, I'm fairly new to the forum here. I don't know everyone yet. I've always just used the site, and not the forum. But I keep seeing quite a few people say you can eat whatever you want just your hit calories and you'll be fine. I'm like OK. I'm pretty sure a majority here know that you have to maintain a calorie deficit to lose weight, it seems like an unnecessary mantra.
(1) You'd be surprised at how many people don't understand that a calorie deficit is what matters for weight loss.
(2) Maybe I'm weird, but for me eating what I want means a primarily nutrient dense diet with some nice restaurants and treats included. I don't assume that what someone else wants is all fast food or all cake or whatever or that they won't want to eat a good diet nutritionally. Plus, even if they wanted to eat the strawman only junk food diet, they know that's not actually ideal -- who doesn't know they should eat vegetables, have adequate protein, etc?10
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