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Why do people deny CICO ?
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L1zardQueen wrote: »Actually, inflammation is a good thing unless it runs rampant. I have RA and it's a booger.
Mine from my PsA is pretty well controlled, but yeah.
I'm still wondering about the mysterious systemic inflammation that is caused by food and the mechanism by which this works in otherwise healthy individuals.
Even having an inflammatory disease and eating supposedly inflammatory foods, my CRP levels are just dandy.
Now my disease is controlled through medication and managing my weight and getting exercise. I'm sure if we happened to measure my CRP levels during a flare, they'd be up, but that hasn't happened yet. When I'm not flaring, they're just fine.
So even not being a healthy person, I don't get this whole foods/inflammation thing. Because I have receipts, you know?6 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Funny enough, the ones who stick around, and are trying to really help others, are the ones in the first category. The people like you who suggest that anyone not bringing optimal nutrition into every single "is a calorie just a calorie" post is part of some cult... never seem to stick around.
So yeah, I'll continue to eat ice cream and pizza, and drink wine in moderation as part of an overall balanced diet, after achieving my weight loss goals and maintaining that healthy weight - get my 15K steps in at a slow pace, play with my kids instead of killing it at the gym, and continue to try to find fulfillment here as part of a member of this community.
Enjoy your broscience up there on your high horse. I'm sure the view is quite nice.
Some of us can’t eat ice cream and pizza. And some of us tried to be members of the community but were beaten into silence for relating our ‘CICO sure, but merely calorie counting wasn’t getting the scale to move for me’ experiences.
From our perspective we endured pedantic arguments and our points or questions stretched into straw man ridiculous statements and until we finally gave up. That is why some of us don’t stick around.
CICO is not calorie counting. It is an energy balance, and it is immutable. That doesn't mean that it is easy or intuitive for everyone to manipulate to achieve their desired results - but you seem to want to believe that you are a special snowflake for whom CICO doesn't apply. It's just not the case. You've stated repeatedly that you're an outlier, your maintenance calories are lower than someone else of similar stats. Ok, that's fine. I'm on the higher end - we balance each other out. You need less CI because you have less CO. That doesn't invalidate CICO, it just changes your starting point.
You've found a way of eating, and an IF plan that enables you to achieve a calorie deficit. Congratulations, you've managed to manipulate the CICO balance in the favor of CI<CO. That is all that any of us are recommending that someone does. Some people do IF, some people cut out certain calorie dense foods, some people increase their activity level so that they can accommodate more calories, some take diet breaks and focus on refeeds to keep their metabolism higher - these are all individualized strategies but they all just tools to manipulate CICO to achieve the desired results.
I'm sorry you feel you have been beaten into silence but challenging your misunderstanding of what CICO is, and how it works, isn't telling you that you should give up and not stick around. I'm glad you are finding success, I remember from your previous posts that you've been quite frustrated.
Lol. I never claimed CICO didn’t apply to me. I never denied the principal. All I say is that I once I figured out my CO (or got close) the real weight loss work was still ahead of me. It was not simple. It was not easy. I had to eliminate some foods completely from my diet. And I expect many others might feel the same - I’m hardly s special snowflake.
I cop to being frustrated in the past and to finding much of the forums less than helpful (much like CICO).
But yes, CICO - I can’t eat more than a certain amount of calories or I will gain weight. But you can be sure WHAT calories I eat make all the difference. Psychologically, from a satiety and satisfaction perspective, from a sustainability and compliance perspective WHAT I eat dictates my CI. Personally I can’t overeat broccoli, spinach, and lean meat proteins and the like. But I could easily eat my fill of potato chips and be 2 or 3 times over my calories and still be hungry.
Congratulations. You're no different than anyone else. Most people don't phrase it that way, but there are foods they can easily overeat because they're not nutrient dense and aren't filling and there are foods that are nutrient dense that are filling. Most of them are able to fill up on those filling foods and have calories left over to add in some treats or are able to fit in some less filling foods in a day packed with more filling foods to balance things out (like having a slice of pizza and a big side salad).
You are merely emphasizing something different and thinking it sets you apart somehow from everyone else and looking at a half empty glass that others are seeing as half full. Nothing more, nothing less.
Wow, yeah, ok whatever makes you happy. Lol.
Like I said in many different ways and in many different places I’m no special snowflake. imo if I’m ‘set apart somehow from everyone else’ it is not me doing it.14 -
Hermesonly wrote: »Fascinating article discussing why the body is less interested in the simplistic formula of CICO, and more interested in insulin levels than some of us might imagine... "Why The First Law of Thermodynamics is Utterly Irrelevant."
https://idmprogram.com/first-law-thermodynamics-irrelevant/
Fung is a quack and his silly nonsense has been soundly spanked and put to bed by researchers who rely on actual science/physiology rather than garbage: https://www.myoleanfitness.com/evidence-caloric-restriction/12 -
Maybe I'm overly gullible. But for some reason I tend to believe it when I read posts like these (this is from a different forum), and I live in terror of something like this happening to me.
Is that person just completely lying, on an anonymous forum? Why?
I’m one of the unfortunate ones who ate well and was active, and still piled on the fat. I am an endomorph, I ate less than my friends, played soccer competitively, basketball, volleyball, workout at the gym, and ran 50km a week. Finally I was getting too heavy to run and play sport, so at 140kg I got a referral to a dietician. She asked me to do a food diary, read it and clearly didn’t believe that I was being truthful. She designed a diet for me to follow and I stuck to it to the gram, while still maintaining my sports. I gained 400g the first week and 300g the second. She asked me if I was cheating. I left and never went back as it was pointless, I *never* cheat, I know that I’ll pack on the fat if I eat badly, so I don’t. Through long research I have lost weight on a ketogenic diet, with exercise, I’m now 99kg and I have completed 5 Tough Mudders. To maintain this weight I have to stay ketogenic and have a massive energy deficiet. I got help from an exercise physiologist who calculated my daily energy burn to be 11500kj. I eat 6000kj daily. All exercise is logged and measured, the fitbit backs it up. All food is logged. No drinks but water and black coffee. Oh, I’m 1.9m tall.
I have some friends who eat vast amounts daily, I live with them and I know they do this daily, some are active, some are not, they make jokes about my small portion sizes. They eat crap, sugary drinks, pizza, chips, doughnuts, cake, ice cream, chocolate, alcohol etc. One in particular, eats junk food all day, I mean all day, eating bad meals and grazing on vending machine food at his desk. He’s a bit skinny looking. He has no muscles and is severely unfit. Recently he experienced chest pain after walking up the stairs when the lift was broken. He went to the doc and has been diagnosed with NAFLD, arteriosclerosis and angina, so it has caught up with him. But he’s still skinny. His incredulous response was “But I’m not fat!” He pointed at me and said that I was fat, why wasn’t I the one with problems!
So in short, if you’ve always been a healthy weight, you can’t comment. If you say you can put on weight if you eat crap and drink alcohol, but as soon as you stop doing that the weight just falls off, you can’t comment. Frankly I’m sick of it, I look like I’ve been fit and have let myself go, it’s annoying being the fat one in my running club, I’m actually one of the faster ones, but I still get hasseled, or worse I get helpful advice on how to slim down from new members. It’s been five years on this regime, I can’t get any lighter as if I restrict my intake more, I’m exhausted and lose muscle mass. So it’s not simple for some fat people. I can’t wait for the scientists to crack this, I’ll be first in line for the treatment.16 -
nettiklive wrote: »Maybe I'm overly gullible. But for some reason I tend to believe it when I read posts like these (this is from a different forum), and I live in terror of something like this happening to me.
Is that person just completely lying, on an anonymous forum? Why?
I’m one of the unfortunate ones who ate well and was active, and still piled on the fat. I am an endomorph, I ate less than my friends, played soccer competitively, basketball, volleyball, workout at the gym, and ran 50km a week. Finally I was getting too heavy to run and play sport, so at 140kg I got a referral to a dietician. She asked me to do a food diary, read it and clearly didn’t believe that I was being truthful. She designed a diet for me to follow and I stuck to it to the gram, while still maintaining my sports. I gained 400g the first week and 300g the second. She asked me if I was cheating. I left and never went back as it was pointless, I *never* cheat, I know that I’ll pack on the fat if I eat badly, so I don’t. Through long research I have lost weight on a ketogenic diet, with exercise, I’m now 99kg and I have completed 5 Tough Mudders. To maintain this weight I have to stay ketogenic and have a massive energy deficiet. I got help from an exercise physiologist who calculated my daily energy burn to be 11500kj. I eat 6000kj daily. All exercise is logged and measured, the fitbit backs it up. All food is logged. No drinks but water and black coffee. Oh, I’m 1.9m tall.
I have some friends who eat vast amounts daily, I live with them and I know they do this daily, some are active, some are not, they make jokes about my small portion sizes. They eat crap, sugary drinks, pizza, chips, doughnuts, cake, ice cream, chocolate, alcohol etc. One in particular, eats junk food all day, I mean all day, eating bad meals and grazing on vending machine food at his desk. He’s a bit skinny looking. He has no muscles and is severely unfit. Recently he experienced chest pain after walking up the stairs when the lift was broken. He went to the doc and has been diagnosed with NAFLD, arteriosclerosis and angina, so it has caught up with him. But he’s still skinny. His incredulous response was “But I’m not fat!” He pointed at me and said that I was fat, why wasn’t I the one with problems!
So in short, if you’ve always been a healthy weight, you can’t comment. If you say you can put on weight if you eat crap and drink alcohol, but as soon as you stop doing that the weight just falls off, you can’t comment. Frankly I’m sick of it, I look like I’ve been fit and have let myself go, it’s annoying being the fat one in my running club, I’m actually one of the faster ones, but I still get hasseled, or worse I get helpful advice on how to slim down from new members. It’s been five years on this regime, I can’t get any lighter as if I restrict my intake more, I’m exhausted and lose muscle mass. So it’s not simple for some fat people. I can’t wait for the scientists to crack this, I’ll be first in line for the treatment.
That is called "confirmation bias".
Nothing in that post is true. That person, and all the "friends" he/she mentioned are speshul snowflakes who defy the very concepts of physics and physiology.
You lose weight by consuming less calories than you expend. Period. Here is a research review containing links to 148 studies which verify the principles of CICO: https://completehumanperformance.com/2013/07/23/why-calories-count/14 -
Watch Secret Eaters. Denial is a powerful thing, and many people think they are more active and eat less/better than is the reality. That's why logging -- or even just writing things down, if you are able to be completely honest with yourself -- can be so powerful.
I thought I didn't eat much when gaining until I forced myself to write it down (pre logging) and realized where I was getting my calories. I also thought I ate a ton in college, etc. and never gained, but I really didn't (when I thought about it) and my daily life was much more active due to all the walking I was doing (that did not register in my mind as activity even, I'd only count intentional exercise).
Whenever people focus on what they think others eat, it's the wrong focus and just an excuse. Even if it were true, what difference could it possibly make?12 -
nettiklive wrote: »Maybe I'm overly gullible. But for some reason I tend to believe it when I read posts like these (this is from a different forum), and I live in terror of something like this happening to me.
Is that person just completely lying, on an anonymous forum? Why?
I’m one of the unfortunate ones who ate well and was active, and still piled on the fat. I am an endomorph, I ate less than my friends, played soccer competitively, basketball, volleyball, workout at the gym, and ran 50km a week. Finally I was getting too heavy to run and play sport, so at 140kg I got a referral to a dietician. She asked me to do a food diary, read it and clearly didn’t believe that I was being truthful. She designed a diet for me to follow and I stuck to it to the gram, while still maintaining my sports. I gained 400g the first week and 300g the second. She asked me if I was cheating. I left and never went back as it was pointless, I *never* cheat, I know that I’ll pack on the fat if I eat badly, so I don’t. Through long research I have lost weight on a ketogenic diet, with exercise, I’m now 99kg and I have completed 5 Tough Mudders. To maintain this weight I have to stay ketogenic and have a massive energy deficiet. I got help from an exercise physiologist who calculated my daily energy burn to be 11500kj. I eat 6000kj daily. All exercise is logged and measured, the fitbit backs it up. All food is logged. No drinks but water and black coffee. Oh, I’m 1.9m tall.
I have some friends who eat vast amounts daily, I live with them and I know they do this daily, some are active, some are not, they make jokes about my small portion sizes. They eat crap, sugary drinks, pizza, chips, doughnuts, cake, ice cream, chocolate, alcohol etc. One in particular, eats junk food all day, I mean all day, eating bad meals and grazing on vending machine food at his desk. He’s a bit skinny looking. He has no muscles and is severely unfit. Recently he experienced chest pain after walking up the stairs when the lift was broken. He went to the doc and has been diagnosed with NAFLD, arteriosclerosis and angina, so it has caught up with him. But he’s still skinny. His incredulous response was “But I’m not fat!” He pointed at me and said that I was fat, why wasn’t I the one with problems!
So in short, if you’ve always been a healthy weight, you can’t comment. If you say you can put on weight if you eat crap and drink alcohol, but as soon as you stop doing that the weight just falls off, you can’t comment. Frankly I’m sick of it, I look like I’ve been fit and have let myself go, it’s annoying being the fat one in my running club, I’m actually one of the faster ones, but I still get hasseled, or worse I get helpful advice on how to slim down from new members. It’s been five years on this regime, I can’t get any lighter as if I restrict my intake more, I’m exhausted and lose muscle mass. So it’s not simple for some fat people. I can’t wait for the scientists to crack this, I’ll be first in line for the treatment.
Has this happened to you? If not, why the terror? Even if we assume it's true and possible, it's obviously very rare to experience something this extreme. It's from an anonymous forum. Do you know this person's psychology, character, history, medical details? Could they be in self denial? Have an undiagnosed medical condition? Have some form of Münchausen syndrome?
If I remember correctly from other threads, you find yourself on the lower side of your demographic with respect to calorie needs, but IIRC you've managed to reach or approach a healthy weight. That's an affirmative accomplishment, and you put in the work to deserve those results.
What is the attraction of stories like this one, rather than (say) stories of people who've increased their calorie needs via reverse dieting, increased NEAT, recomposition, or other methods? Those stories are out there, too, and probably at least as common.15 -
nettiklive wrote: »Maybe I'm overly gullible. But for some reason I tend to believe it when I read posts like these (this is from a different forum), and I live in terror of something like this happening to me.
Is that person just completely lying, on an anonymous forum? Why?
I’m one of the unfortunate ones who ate well and was active, and still piled on the fat. I am an endomorph, I ate less than my friends, played soccer competitively, basketball, volleyball, workout at the gym, and ran 50km a week. Finally I was getting too heavy to run and play sport, so at 140kg I got a referral to a dietician. She asked me to do a food diary, read it and clearly didn’t believe that I was being truthful. She designed a diet for me to follow and I stuck to it to the gram, while still maintaining my sports. I gained 400g the first week and 300g the second. She asked me if I was cheating. I left and never went back as it was pointless, I *never* cheat, I know that I’ll pack on the fat if I eat badly, so I don’t. Through long research I have lost weight on a ketogenic diet, with exercise, I’m now 99kg and I have completed 5 Tough Mudders. To maintain this weight I have to stay ketogenic and have a massive energy deficiet. I got help from an exercise physiologist who calculated my daily energy burn to be 11500kj. I eat 6000kj daily. All exercise is logged and measured, the fitbit backs it up. All food is logged. No drinks but water and black coffee. Oh, I’m 1.9m tall.
I have some friends who eat vast amounts daily, I live with them and I know they do this daily, some are active, some are not, they make jokes about my small portion sizes. They eat crap, sugary drinks, pizza, chips, doughnuts, cake, ice cream, chocolate, alcohol etc. One in particular, eats junk food all day, I mean all day, eating bad meals and grazing on vending machine food at his desk. He’s a bit skinny looking. He has no muscles and is severely unfit. Recently he experienced chest pain after walking up the stairs when the lift was broken. He went to the doc and has been diagnosed with NAFLD, arteriosclerosis and angina, so it has caught up with him. But he’s still skinny. His incredulous response was “But I’m not fat!” He pointed at me and said that I was fat, why wasn’t I the one with problems!
So in short, if you’ve always been a healthy weight, you can’t comment. If you say you can put on weight if you eat crap and drink alcohol, but as soon as you stop doing that the weight just falls off, you can’t comment. Frankly I’m sick of it, I look like I’ve been fit and have let myself go, it’s annoying being the fat one in my running club, I’m actually one of the faster ones, but I still get hasseled, or worse I get helpful advice on how to slim down from new members. It’s been five years on this regime, I can’t get any lighter as if I restrict my intake more, I’m exhausted and lose muscle mass. So it’s not simple for some fat people. I can’t wait for the scientists to crack this, I’ll be first in line for the treatment.
It takes approximately 3500 calories over your maintenance calories to gain a pound of fat. That is something that cannot be shaken. You can't store energy you don't eat. Every single thing you do uses up energy. The minimum energy it takes can be calculated for physical work. There's not much wiggle room for being truthful in this post. 6000 kj is 1433 kcal. They said they gained almost a pound in a week, which would put their TDEE at maybe 950. While being 1.90 tall, 140 kg and apparently using all their free time on sports and exercise on a competitive level. Can you imagine how stupid that sounds?11 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Funny enough, the ones who stick around, and are trying to really help others, are the ones in the first category. The people like you who suggest that anyone not bringing optimal nutrition into every single "is a calorie just a calorie" post is part of some cult... never seem to stick around.
So yeah, I'll continue to eat ice cream and pizza, and drink wine in moderation as part of an overall balanced diet, after achieving my weight loss goals and maintaining that healthy weight - get my 15K steps in at a slow pace, play with my kids instead of killing it at the gym, and continue to try to find fulfillment here as part of a member of this community.
Enjoy your broscience up there on your high horse. I'm sure the view is quite nice.
Some of us can’t eat ice cream and pizza. And some of us tried to be members of the community but were beaten into silence for relating our ‘CICO sure, but merely calorie counting wasn’t getting the scale to move for me’ experiences.
From our perspective we endured pedantic arguments and our points or questions stretched into straw man ridiculous statements and until we finally gave up. That is why some of us don’t stick around.
CICO is not calorie counting. It is an energy balance, and it is immutable. That doesn't mean that it is easy or intuitive for everyone to manipulate to achieve their desired results - but you seem to want to believe that you are a special snowflake for whom CICO doesn't apply. It's just not the case. You've stated repeatedly that you're an outlier, your maintenance calories are lower than someone else of similar stats. Ok, that's fine. I'm on the higher end - we balance each other out. You need less CI because you have less CO. That doesn't invalidate CICO, it just changes your starting point.
You've found a way of eating, and an IF plan that enables you to achieve a calorie deficit. Congratulations, you've managed to manipulate the CICO balance in the favor of CI<CO. That is all that any of us are recommending that someone does. Some people do IF, some people cut out certain calorie dense foods, some people increase their activity level so that they can accommodate more calories, some take diet breaks and focus on refeeds to keep their metabolism higher - these are all individualized strategies but they all just tools to manipulate CICO to achieve the desired results.
I'm sorry you feel you have been beaten into silence but challenging your misunderstanding of what CICO is, and how it works, isn't telling you that you should give up and not stick around. I'm glad you are finding success, I remember from your previous posts that you've been quite frustrated.
Lol. I never claimed CICO didn’t apply to me. I never denied the principal. All I say is that I once I figured out my CO (or got close) the real weight loss work was still ahead of me. It was not simple. It was not easy. I had to eliminate some foods completely from my diet. And I expect many others might feel the same - I’m hardly s special snowflake.
I cop to being frustrated in the past and to finding much of the forums less than helpful (much like CICO).
But yes, CICO - I can’t eat more than a certain amount of calories or I will gain weight. But you can be sure WHAT calories I eat make all the difference. Psychologically, from a satiety and satisfaction perspective, from a sustainability and compliance perspective WHAT I eat dictates my CI. Personally I can’t overeat broccoli, spinach, and lean meat proteins and the like. But I could easily eat my fill of potato chips and be 2 or 3 times over my calories and still be hungry.
Congratulations. You're no different than anyone else. Most people don't phrase it that way, but there are foods they can easily overeat because they're not nutrient dense and aren't filling and there are foods that are nutrient dense that are filling. Most of them are able to fill up on those filling foods and have calories left over to add in some treats or are able to fit in some less filling foods in a day packed with more filling foods to balance things out (like having a slice of pizza and a big side salad).
You are merely emphasizing something different and thinking it sets you apart somehow from everyone else and looking at a half empty glass that others are seeing as half full. Nothing more, nothing less.
Wow, yeah, ok whatever makes you happy. Lol.
Like I said in many different ways and in many different places I’m no special snowflake. imo if I’m ‘set apart somehow from everyone else’ it is not me doing it.
Ryen, I'm trying to get you to see that you were not run off the boards or othered by anything other than your own perceptions.
You and I do the same things. That was my point.
You word things very differently and put such focus on how you have to eat to the detriment of the understanding of the hierarchy of weight management, and that doesn't come across in your posts.16 -
As a footnote to Ryen, I'd just like to add that I think a shift in perceptions, focus, and outlook might further her chances of ongoing success, and that is really my main concern.10
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WinoGelato wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »TicoCortez wrote: »
Dom is funny and obviously satirical but most of the guys and gals I know that are in fantastic shape follow strict "bro diets" (chicken breast and broccoli) and "bro splits" (low frequency/ high volume training).
correlation =/= casuation
I agree that a lot of it is correlation. Still, me thinks that healthy food (high fiber, high protein, low sugar) = more energy = harder training and better recovery.
And for people who have no interest in "harder training" and following bro diets and bro splits to achieve "fantastic shape"? What do you recommend for them? Still need to avoid eating whatever your definition of processed food/junk food is?
I recommend trying eating a diet full of whole foods for a month and pay attention to how it affects your cognition and energy levels. If you think eating pasta if worth it still then go for it.
So why exactly is pasta, which I have pretty often in many different styles - but usually sauteed shrimp, asparagus, zucchini and squash in an light olive oil and garlic sauce hurting my cognition? What cognition issues do you think I'm having? Energy levels are also just fine, for someone who works about 50-60 hours/week, has two young kids, keeps a tidy house and fits in a decent amount of exercise in my 24 hours each day as well.
I forgot to ask how you have so much time to pick fights with people on here when you are so busy working 60 hour weeks, raising two kids, exercise regularly and keeps a tidy house. Pls explain. Below is where we started.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I've got a pathological condition that requires me to have at least 4 simultaneous trains of thought taxing my brain or I can't get anything productive done. So last night, 6 MFP threads, book 4 of GoT, PoGo on two devices while riding the train, and planning my weekend were almost enough to occupy my mental resources so that my brain wasn't running off on bunny trails about the colors of wild flowers or the smell of diesel and lubricant from the engine.
And "picking fights", nothing even resembling that going on here.9 -
WinoGelato wrote: »TicoCortez wrote: »
Dom is funny and obviously satirical but most of the guys and gals I know that are in fantastic shape follow strict "bro diets" (chicken breast and broccoli) and "bro splits" (low frequency/ high volume training).
correlation =/= casuation
I agree that a lot of it is correlation. Still, me thinks that healthy food (high fiber, high protein, low sugar) = more energy = harder training and better recovery.
And for people who have no interest in "harder training" and following bro diets and bro splits to achieve "fantastic shape"? What do you recommend for them? Still need to avoid eating whatever your definition of processed food/junk food is?
I recommend trying eating a diet full of whole foods for a month and pay attention to how it affects your cognition and energy levels. If you think eating pasta if worth it still then go for it.
I was raised on a whole foods diet and still eat a lot of them. I still eat pasta sometimes because I know from experience that it's the overall context of my diet that matters, not individual foods. My cognition and energy levels are fine when I have some pasta.10 -
If there is one thing I've learned from the MFP Debate forum, it's that there are a lot of people out there who aren't familiar with the concept of "debate". I guess it explains our current political climate (at least in the US) where if someone disagrees with you they are assumed to be evil, stupid, unpatriotic, criminal, and barely fit to live without a second thought.
Debate is healthy and actually necessary. Having your opinion challenged gives you the opportunity to ensure you fully understand the issue and determine how firmly you hold your opinion. And it opens the door to the idea that changing your mind when confronted with facts you weren't aware of is not necessarily a bad thing. Disagreeing with someone isn't rude, disrespectful, or an attack. It's a part of thoughtful conversation.
The demise of debate, compromise, and understanding of the scientific process are all leading us as a society down a dangerous path. This is my deep thought of the day, and it was brought to you by "Why Do People Deny CICO?". I really hope there are some ACV or starvation mode threads today, I need to lighten up a little here
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But, but....starvation.1
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If there is one thing I've learned from the MFP Debate forum, it's that there are a lot of people out there who aren't familiar with the concept of "debate". I guess it explains our current political climate (at least in the US) where if someone disagrees with you they are assumed to be evil, stupid, unpatriotic, criminal, and barely fit to live without a second thought.
Debate is healthy and actually necessary. Having your opinion challenged gives you the opportunity to ensure you fully understand the issue and determine how firmly you hold your opinion. And it opens the door to the idea that changing your mind when confronted with facts you weren't aware of is not necessarily a bad thing. Disagreeing with someone isn't rude, disrespectful, or an attack. It's a part of thoughtful conversation.
The demise of debate, compromise, and understanding of the scientific process are all leading us as a society down a dangerous path. This is my deep thought of the day, and it was brought to you by "Why Do People Deny CICO?". I really hope there are some ACV or starvation mode threads today, I need to lighten up a little here
I don't mind people debating what someone says. We run into problems when people either attribute something completely different, or debate based on faulty understanding.
I've seen many variations of, "I'm not saying CICO doesn't work, just it's not the complete picture."
Weight is a very course measure of health and fitness. It doesn't tell the whole story. But many seem to jump on that and suggest the person saying it is trying to say CICO doesn't work.
Odd, I didn't see that said at all. But there are those who will begin arguing that someone said just that, when they didn't.8 -
The thing that makes me laugh is when people try arguing with me against this simple concept (I am almost done with my MSc in Human Nutrition) and they are adamant they are correct because 'they heard you can't eat before bed otherwise you store it as fat' FML3
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tbright1965 wrote: »If there is one thing I've learned from the MFP Debate forum, it's that there are a lot of people out there who aren't familiar with the concept of "debate". I guess it explains our current political climate (at least in the US) where if someone disagrees with you they are assumed to be evil, stupid, unpatriotic, criminal, and barely fit to live without a second thought.
Debate is healthy and actually necessary. Having your opinion challenged gives you the opportunity to ensure you fully understand the issue and determine how firmly you hold your opinion. And it opens the door to the idea that changing your mind when confronted with facts you weren't aware of is not necessarily a bad thing. Disagreeing with someone isn't rude, disrespectful, or an attack. It's a part of thoughtful conversation.
The demise of debate, compromise, and understanding of the scientific process are all leading us as a society down a dangerous path. This is my deep thought of the day, and it was brought to you by "Why Do People Deny CICO?". I really hope there are some ACV or starvation mode threads today, I need to lighten up a little here
I don't mind people debating what someone says. We run into problems when people either attribute something completely different, or debate based on faulty understanding.
I've seen many variations of, "I'm not saying CICO doesn't work, just it's not the complete picture."
Weight is a very course measure of health and fitness. It doesn't tell the whole story. But many seem to jump on that and suggest the person saying it is trying to say CICO doesn't work.
Odd, I didn't see that said at all. But there are those who will begin arguing that someone said just that, when they didn't.
But CICO is JUST about weight loss/gain. It has absolutely nothing to do with health or fitness. No one here says CICO is the whole story for health or fitness, so what is the point in someone arguing that it's not?
Weight loss, health, and fitness are all different things. And there is no reason to assume that everyone cares about all three of them unless they specifically say they do.
I honestly don't understand how someone can spend enough time on the boards to have an opinion, and honestly say we only tell people CICO CICO CICO. We are constantly posting and having discussions about satiety, different options for meal timing, which macros some people find filling, etc. And when asked for examples of threads where this myopic CICO with no nuance is obvious, we never get one.
So I'm still falling back on - people who say CICO isn't the complete picture either don't understand what CICO is, have a need to evangelize about their diet whether it's topical or not, or haven't spent enough time here to have an accurate read of what goes on.21 -
But CICO is JUST about weight loss/gain. It has absolutely nothing to do with health or fitness. No one here says CICO is the whole story for health or fitness, so what is the point in someone arguing that it's not?
Weight loss, health, and fitness are all different things. And there is no reason to assume that everyone cares about all three of them unless they specifically say they do.
I honestly don't understand how someone can spend enough time on the boards to have an opinion, and honestly say we only tell people CICO CICO CICO. We are constantly posting and having discussions about satiety, different options for meal timing, which macros some people find filling, etc. And when asked for examples of threads where this myopic CICO with no nuance is obvious, we never get one.
So I'm still falling back on - people who say CICO isn't the complete picture either don't understand what CICO is, have a need to evangelize about their diet whether it's topical or not, or haven't spent enough time here to have an accurate read of what goes on.
Or they understand that like any measurement system, it can be manipulated, and so on.
In the long term, it is just CICO when it comes to weight. The problem arises when people try to apply this in the short term.
Made up example: "I didn't eat anything yesterday and I lost 5 pounds."
The question is 5 pounds of what? Water, fat, muscle, clothes, scale variation, what?
Did they really burn 17500 calories in that day? Unless they ran an ultra marathon or are training for the olympics, probably not. And if they were, they probably would need to eat something after the first 5k-7k calories burned. (Maybe sooner based on when I can "bonk" on a long bike ride.)
The other extreme is that person who all but measured everything with a mass spectrometer to be sure they know down to the molecule what is going in their body. So they know they had 1500 and even if they sat on the couch all day, they had to burn that much just to stay alive. Yet they gained 1.5 pounds and then believe CICO doesn't work.
Same question, they gained 1.5 pounds of what? Muscle, fat, water, clothes, or measurement error?
In both cases, even if you eliminated measurement variations and clothing, someone could be dehydrated one day and fully hydrated the next, or vice versa and claim a gain or loss and then (wrongly) conclude CICO doesn't work.
It does.
But, or if you are educated however, it's a long term measurement tool. CICO is less useful day to day due to other factors.
I can see where someone might legitimately gain or lose "weight" counter to CICO in a short time horizon. I don't see that happening when we are talking about months of accurate measurements of all values, CI, CO and weight.
That's what I'm saying. CICO is good in the long term. It is not a good tool to explain short term fluctuation. People who don't understand that can draw the wrong conclusions.
You cannot outrun your fork goes both ways. Eventually, as long as CI < CO, weight must drop.
No agenda, not trying to sell anything, just explaining human behavior and the limitations of small data sets.
11 -
WinoGelato wrote: »TicoCortez wrote: »
Dom is funny and obviously satirical but most of the guys and gals I know that are in fantastic shape follow strict "bro diets" (chicken breast and broccoli) and "bro splits" (low frequency/ high volume training).
correlation =/= casuation
I agree that a lot of it is correlation. Still, me thinks that healthy food (high fiber, high protein, low sugar) = more energy = harder training and better recovery.
And for people who have no interest in "harder training" and following bro diets and bro splits to achieve "fantastic shape"? What do you recommend for them? Still need to avoid eating whatever your definition of processed food/junk food is?
I recommend trying eating a diet full of whole foods for a month and pay attention to how it affects your cognition and energy levels. If you think eating pasta if worth it still then go for it.
Have any objective evidence supporting superiority of this practice?
Try google. Keywords: inflammation, gut micro-biome, cognition, sugar/ glucose.
I find when people are challenged they do one of two things depending on confidence. The unconfident will double down, bring up past achievements, degrees, etc. and distinctly no objective evidence. The confident will take a moment to ensure that what they believe is true is actually true and to expand their knowledge base.
One side wants to be right, the other seeks truth.12 -
tbright1965 wrote: »
But CICO is JUST about weight loss/gain. It has absolutely nothing to do with health or fitness. No one here says CICO is the whole story for health or fitness, so what is the point in someone arguing that it's not?
Weight loss, health, and fitness are all different things. And there is no reason to assume that everyone cares about all three of them unless they specifically say they do.
I honestly don't understand how someone can spend enough time on the boards to have an opinion, and honestly say we only tell people CICO CICO CICO. We are constantly posting and having discussions about satiety, different options for meal timing, which macros some people find filling, etc. And when asked for examples of threads where this myopic CICO with no nuance is obvious, we never get one.
So I'm still falling back on - people who say CICO isn't the complete picture either don't understand what CICO is, have a need to evangelize about their diet whether it's topical or not, or haven't spent enough time here to have an accurate read of what goes on.
Or they understand that like any measurement system, it can be manipulated, and so on.
In the long term, it is just CICO when it comes to weight. The problem arises when people try to apply this in the short term.
Made up example: "I didn't eat anything yesterday and I lost 5 pounds."
The question is 5 pounds of what? Water, fat, muscle, clothes, scale variation, what?
Did they really burn 17500 calories in that day? Unless they ran an ultra marathon or are training for the olympics, probably not. And if they were, they probably would need to eat something after the first 5k-7k calories burned. (Maybe sooner based on when I can "bonk" on a long bike ride.)
The other extreme is that person who all but measured everything with a mass spectrometer to be sure they know down to the molecule what is going in their body. So they know they had 1500 and even if they sat on the couch all day, they had to burn that much just to stay alive. Yet they gained 1.5 pounds and then believe CICO doesn't work.
Same question, they gained 1.5 pounds of what? Muscle, fat, water, clothes, or measurement error?
In both cases, even if you eliminated measurement variations and clothing, someone could be dehydrated one day and fully hydrated the next, or vice versa and claim a gain or loss and then (wrongly) conclude CICO doesn't work.
It does.
But, or if you are educated however, it's a long term measurement tool. CICO is less useful day to day due to other factors.
I can see where someone might legitimately gain or lose "weight" counter to CICO in a short time horizon. I don't see that happening when we are talking about months of accurate measurements of all values, CI, CO and weight.
That's what I'm saying. CICO is good in the long term. It is not a good tool to explain short term fluctuation. People who don't understand that can draw the wrong conclusions.
You cannot outrun your fork goes both ways. Eventually, as long as CI < CO, weight must drop.
No agenda, not trying to sell anything, just explaining human behavior and the limitations of small data sets.
I have no idea who you are arguing with. Because literally no one here said that you can explain day to day fluctuations with CICO. We tell people not to worry about day to day fluctuations because CICO will determine success long term. So I mean, yeah, I agree with you, and you seem to agree with OP, and the veteran posters who are constantly accused of being in a CICO cult.19
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