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Why do people deny CICO ?
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lemurcat12 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Eating processed foods, carbs and sugar really do make me feel like garbage. I don't think I am alone in this. It is WAY easier to eat vegetables, eggs, lean meat and water only if you are going for a steep cut (2lbs+ per week). With a clean diet I can go to bed full on 1700 calories easy (1200 cal deficit). I can't imagine getting through a day after having a 400+ calorie sugary snack. I would wake up the next day with a sugar hangover unable to move. Whatever keeps you sane though.
Calories in-- calories out means everything though. I maintain and gain weight on the same foods, just more volume (and a lot of added butter!)
Vegetables have carbohydrates.
Also, fruit is one of the foods highest in carbs by percentage, and yet few people claim to feel like garbage because they eat fruit. So yeah, I do think that's kind of unusual, although there are others who claim carbs in general make them feel bad.
Of course, most of the healthiest human diets (the blue zones) are reasonably high carb.
and high in fiber.
Sure. But high in net carbs also, at least from the perspective of someone demonizing "carbs."3 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Eating processed foods, carbs and sugar really do make me feel like garbage. I don't think I am alone in this. It is WAY easier to eat vegetables, eggs, lean meat and water only if you are going for a steep cut (2lbs+ per week). With a clean diet I can go to bed full on 1700 calories easy (1200 cal deficit). I can't imagine getting through a day after having a 400+ calorie sugary snack. I would wake up the next day with a sugar hangover unable to move. Whatever keeps you sane though.
Calories in-- calories out means everything though. I maintain and gain weight on the same foods, just more volume (and a lot of added butter!)
Nope - my greek yogurt with prepackaged granola and berries, my soup made with frozen vegetables, boxed chicken broth, lean ground beef, dried pasta and canned tomatoes do not make me feel like garbage. Nor does pizza, wine, and ice cream; eaten in moderation as part of an overall calorie appropriate diet. Nor is a 1200 calorie deficit appropriate for me or for most people - I'm already at a healthy weight, and even when I was losing, 0.5lb-1 lb /week was the rate of loss appropriate for my goals.
yogurt, broth, frozen veggies and beef certainly are not junk foods nor are they processed-- just canned, frozen etc.
Of course they are processed. What do you think processed means?I am glad that you can enjoy ice cream and pizza.
I'll note that neither of these is necessarily more processed than yogurt or smoked salmon or butter.
I make pizza at home on occasion, and while I don't grind the grain myself you can get a home grinder if you are that into "no processed." Beyond that, the ingredients are water and yeast (the crust), olive oil (processed, of course, but you could find a way to do without), garlic, tomatoes, whatever vegetables you add, whatever meat you add (I don't like meat on pizza, so don't, but have made pizzas for others with chicken, gotten them with shrimp at a cool local pizza place, so on). Oh, and usually cheese, which is about as processed as butter or yogurt.
Ice cream is even easier, as you can make it with cream, fruit, perhaps an egg, perhaps some milk, and whatever spices you want. Yes, it normally has sugar (although I used to make some low carb ice cream without it), but you can use honey or syrup for the sweetener.
So the focus on "processed food" seems kind of irrelevant to nutrients or whether food is high cal for the satiety or whatever.
I, like WinoGelato, don't find ice cream makes me feel bad at all, in a reasonable amount. I ate about 200 cal worth regularly when losing (I had exercise calories and otherwise ate a ton of vegetables and kept my protein up, so why not?).
Pizza is exactly as healthy/nutrient dense/caloric as you make it. I don't find it too different from pasta the way I make it (lots of vegetables), except not having meat on mine makes it harder to get enough protein so I usually have something else with it (also often have salad with it) or have extra protein in my other meals that day. (I do like an egg and ham and arugula on pizza, usually with something like asparagus or artichoke hearts).
Anyway, it doesn't make me feel bad.
Lower nutrient pizza choices in excess, without a sufficiently varied diet otherwise? Sure that would make me feel bad, but nothing unique about pizza.
Our disagreement is in semantics.
Half the threads on here are about people falling off the wagon after following IIFYM. I wonder why?
Strong cope on here. Enjoy your mediocrity goals of 2018.
Y'know, one of the really fun things about the MFP forums is that people get in discussions, don't know much about the people they're responding to, make assumptions, and fling "critiques" based on those assumptions. It can be kinda hilarious.
Apropos of nothing in this thread, of course.
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Funny enough, the ones who stick around, and are trying to really help others, are the ones in the first category. The people like you who suggest that anyone not bringing optimal nutrition into every single "is a calorie just a calorie" post is part of some cult... never seem to stick around.
So yeah, I'll continue to eat ice cream and pizza, and drink wine in moderation as part of an overall balanced diet, after achieving my weight loss goals and maintaining that healthy weight - get my 15K steps in at a slow pace, play with my kids instead of killing it at the gym, and continue to try to find fulfillment here as part of a member of this community.
Enjoy your broscience up there on your high horse. I'm sure the view is quite nice.
Some of us can’t eat ice cream and pizza. And some of us tried to be members of the community but were beaten into silence for relating our ‘CICO sure, but merely calorie counting wasn’t getting the scale to move for me’ experiences.
From our perspective we endured pedantic arguments and our points or questions stretched into straw man ridiculous statements and until we finally gave up. That is why some of us don’t stick around.29 -
janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Eating processed foods, carbs and sugar really do make me feel like garbage. I don't think I am alone in this. It is WAY easier to eat vegetables, eggs, lean meat and water only if you are going for a steep cut (2lbs+ per week). With a clean diet I can go to bed full on 1700 calories easy (1200 cal deficit). I can't imagine getting through a day after having a 400+ calorie sugary snack. I would wake up the next day with a sugar hangover unable to move. Whatever keeps you sane though.
Calories in-- calories out means everything though. I maintain and gain weight on the same foods, just more volume (and a lot of added butter!)
Vegetables have carbohydrates.
Also, fruit is one of the foods highest in carbs by percentage, and yet few people claim to feel like garbage because they eat fruit. So yeah, I do think that's kind of unusual, although there are others who claim carbs in general make them feel bad.
Of course, most of the healthiest human diets (the blue zones) are reasonably high carb.
and high in fiber.
What does this have to do with you claiming that carbohydrates make you feel like garbage?
The main difference between eating bread and broccoli is the fiber. It is a lot about glucose spikes. It has also been shown that diets absent of fiber create breeding grounds for an unhealthy micro-biome. A lot of it comes down to inflammation.
Who is recommending a diet absent of fiber?
Low carb diets are as or more likely to be low fiber than high carb diets, as sources of fiber include other carbs.
(I even prefer a somewhat lower than average carb diet, but let's not pretend that carbs are bad or low nutrient. Many high nutrient foods, veg, fruit, legumes, tubers, whole grains, are mostly carbs, and others (nuts and seeds, most dairy) include carbs.)2 -
janejellyroll wrote: »diannethegeek wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Eating processed foods, carbs and sugar really do make me feel like garbage. I don't think I am alone in this. It is WAY easier to eat vegetables, eggs, lean meat and water only if you are going for a steep cut (2lbs+ per week). With a clean diet I can go to bed full on 1700 calories easy (1200 cal deficit). I can't imagine getting through a day after having a 400+ calorie sugary snack. I would wake up the next day with a sugar hangover unable to move. Whatever keeps you sane though.
Calories in-- calories out means everything though. I maintain and gain weight on the same foods, just more volume (and a lot of added butter!)
Vegetables have carbohydrates.
Also, fruit is one of the foods highest in carbs by percentage, and yet few people claim to feel like garbage because they eat fruit. So yeah, I do think that's kind of unusual, although there are others who claim carbs in general make them feel bad.
Of course, most of the healthiest human diets (the blue zones) are reasonably high carb.
and high in fiber.
What does this have to do with you claiming that carbohydrates make you feel like garbage?
The main difference between eating bread and broccoli is the fiber. It is a lot about glucose spikes. It has also been shown that diets absent of fiber create breeding grounds for an unhealthy micro-biome. A lot of it comes down to inflammation.
Yes, there are differences between foods containing carbohydrates. That's why I had trouble understanding your initial statement: "Carbs . . . really do make me feel like garbage." I feel like bread and broccoli serve really different functions in my diet (although neither one makes me feel like garbage).
The point is that many people, including some of the healthiest people in the world and some of the best athletes in the world, include carbohydrate-containing foods in their diet. Even you, despite your claim about how they make you feel, say you eat vegetables, foods that contain carbohydrates. I'm having trouble understanding your claims, to be honest.
Do you eat broccoli despite the fact that it makes you feel like garbage?
His diary sure doesn't reflect a high fiber diet.
hmmn, I haven't logged in weeks. What are you seeing?
Someone made some entries for you yesterday and today.
I use this a lot to calculate the nutrition of meals that I am not sure what the macro-nutrient contents will turn out to be. Lately I have been eating more intuitively. Yes.. I do eat meals that have less than 10g of fiber.
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Funny enough, the ones who stick around, and are trying to really help others, are the ones in the first category. The people like you who suggest that anyone not bringing optimal nutrition into every single "is a calorie just a calorie" post is part of some cult... never seem to stick around.
So yeah, I'll continue to eat ice cream and pizza, and drink wine in moderation as part of an overall balanced diet, after achieving my weight loss goals and maintaining that healthy weight - get my 15K steps in at a slow pace, play with my kids instead of killing it at the gym, and continue to try to find fulfillment here as part of a member of this community.
Enjoy your broscience up there on your high horse. I'm sure the view is quite nice.
Some of us can’t eat ice cream and pizza. And some of us tried to be members of the community but were beaten into silence for relating our ‘CICO sure, but merely calorie counting wasn’t getting the scale to move for me’ experiences.
From our perspective we endured pedantic arguments and our points or questions stretched into straw man ridiculous statements and until we finally gave up. That is why some of us don’t stick around.
I have never seen a thread where someone was told that eating ice cream and pizza were *mandatory* in order to meet their goals.
"Calorie counting" (in the sense of logging and consistently hitting a calorie goal that puts one in a deficit) will work for everyone. This doesn't mean that everyone will be able to adhere to a calorie deficit regardless of the food choices they're making.
Some people find it easier to stay in a deficit when they employ certain strategies to ensure satiety -- these are things like reducing carbohydrates, focusing on volume, increasing protein, ensuring sufficient fiber, etc etc. When people find that certain things work for them and help them consistently stay in a deficit, I don't see them discouraged from doing those things. It's when they confuse these strategies with what is actually creating the weight loss (the deficit) or assume that these are strategies that all must adopt to be successful that things tend to get contentious.13 -
TicoCortez wrote: »
Dom is funny and obviously satirical but most of the guys and gals I know that are in fantastic shape follow strict "bro diets" (chicken breast and broccoli) and "bro splits" (low frequency/ high volume training).
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TicoCortez wrote: »
Dom is funny and obviously satirical but most of the guys and gals I know that are in fantastic shape follow strict "bro diets" (chicken breast and broccoli) and "bro splits" (low frequency/ high volume training).
correlation =/= casuation13 -
janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Eating processed foods, carbs and sugar really do make me feel like garbage. I don't think I am alone in this. It is WAY easier to eat vegetables, eggs, lean meat and water only if you are going for a steep cut (2lbs+ per week). With a clean diet I can go to bed full on 1700 calories easy (1200 cal deficit). I can't imagine getting through a day after having a 400+ calorie sugary snack. I would wake up the next day with a sugar hangover unable to move. Whatever keeps you sane though.
Calories in-- calories out means everything though. I maintain and gain weight on the same foods, just more volume (and a lot of added butter!)
Nope - my greek yogurt with prepackaged granola and berries, my soup made with frozen vegetables, boxed chicken broth, lean ground beef, dried pasta and canned tomatoes do not make me feel like garbage. Nor does pizza, wine, and ice cream; eaten in moderation as part of an overall calorie appropriate diet. Nor is a 1200 calorie deficit appropriate for me or for most people - I'm already at a healthy weight, and even when I was losing, 0.5lb-1 lb /week was the rate of loss appropriate for my goals.
yogurt, broth, frozen veggies and beef certainly are not junk foods nor are they processed-- just canned, frozen etc.
Of course they are processed. What do you think processed means?I am glad that you can enjoy ice cream and pizza.
I'll note that neither of these is necessarily more processed than yogurt or smoked salmon or butter.
I make pizza at home on occasion, and while I don't grind the grain myself you can get a home grinder if you are that into "no processed." Beyond that, the ingredients are water and yeast (the crust), olive oil (processed, of course, but you could find a way to do without), garlic, tomatoes, whatever vegetables you add, whatever meat you add (I don't like meat on pizza, so don't, but have made pizzas for others with chicken, gotten them with shrimp at a cool local pizza place, so on). Oh, and usually cheese, which is about as processed as butter or yogurt.
Ice cream is even easier, as you can make it with cream, fruit, perhaps an egg, perhaps some milk, and whatever spices you want. Yes, it normally has sugar (although I used to make some low carb ice cream without it), but you can use honey or syrup for the sweetener.
So the focus on "processed food" seems kind of irrelevant to nutrients or whether food is high cal for the satiety or whatever.
I, like WinoGelato, don't find ice cream makes me feel bad at all, in a reasonable amount. I ate about 200 cal worth regularly when losing (I had exercise calories and otherwise ate a ton of vegetables and kept my protein up, so why not?).
Pizza is exactly as healthy/nutrient dense/caloric as you make it. I don't find it too different from pasta the way I make it (lots of vegetables), except not having meat on mine makes it harder to get enough protein so I usually have something else with it (also often have salad with it) or have extra protein in my other meals that day. (I do like an egg and ham and arugula on pizza, usually with something like asparagus or artichoke hearts).
Anyway, it doesn't make me feel bad.
Lower nutrient pizza choices in excess, without a sufficiently varied diet otherwise? Sure that would make me feel bad, but nothing unique about pizza.
Our disagreement is in semantics.
Half the threads on here are about people falling off the wagon after following IIFYM. I wonder why?
Strong cope on here. Enjoy your mediocrity goals of 2018.
Because all types of diet plans, including plans like yours that require you to eliminate wide swaths of food, have relatively poor adherence rates?
Do you really think people are *more likely* to stay on a plan that requires them to never have pizza or ice cream again?
Yes, I do. Taking a cheat day to enjoy these foods is also an option. Stop eating sugar and you will stop craving it.
I never craved sugar, so why should I cut out foods I enjoy like ice cream, chocolate, or for that matter fruit (which has a lot of sugar).
I cut out added sugar as an experiment and found it super easy. I also decided there was no point in doing it long term. I think if someone is interested, it never hurts to do it as an experiment or if you want, but focusing only on what you don't eat, or sugar specifically, is a really uninformed approach to nutrition, IMO, and even when I choose not to eat sugar (or to cut carbs or, as during Lent, no animal products), I don't tell myself those foods are "bad" or that bad awful terrible things would happen if I ate them, since for me that kind of lie is much more likely to have a bad result than the more sensible "I can eat treats if I want, but best to keep them as treats or for special occasional or small amounts, as I WANT to eat a mostly nutrient dense diet.)
My main splurges are savory, anyway, like Indian food, which I eat about once a month and eat whatever I want for that particular dinner and just plan for it.4 -
Obligatory fast food for the month link.5
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TicoCortez wrote: »
Dom is funny and obviously satirical but most of the guys and gals I know that are in fantastic shape follow strict "bro diets" (chicken breast and broccoli) and "bro splits" (low frequency/ high volume training).
Have you ever for one second wondered if it could be because they're really serious about it and are logging their intake meticulously, never skipping a workout etc.?11 -
TicoCortez wrote: »
Dom is funny and obviously satirical but most of the guys and gals I know that are in fantastic shape follow strict "bro diets" (chicken breast and broccoli) and "bro splits" (low frequency/ high volume training).
correlation =/= casuation
I agree that a lot of it is correlation. Still, me thinks that healthy food (high fiber, high protein, low sugar) = more energy = harder training and better recovery.11 -
stevencloser wrote: »TicoCortez wrote: »
Dom is funny and obviously satirical but most of the guys and gals I know that are in fantastic shape follow strict "bro diets" (chicken breast and broccoli) and "bro splits" (low frequency/ high volume training).
Have you ever for one second wondered if it could be because they're really serious about it and are logging their intake meticulously, never skipping a workout etc.?
Yea, I think that is most of the "magic." Strong profile pic.7 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Funny enough, the ones who stick around, and are trying to really help others, are the ones in the first category. The people like you who suggest that anyone not bringing optimal nutrition into every single "is a calorie just a calorie" post is part of some cult... never seem to stick around.
So yeah, I'll continue to eat ice cream and pizza, and drink wine in moderation as part of an overall balanced diet, after achieving my weight loss goals and maintaining that healthy weight - get my 15K steps in at a slow pace, play with my kids instead of killing it at the gym, and continue to try to find fulfillment here as part of a member of this community.
Enjoy your broscience up there on your high horse. I'm sure the view is quite nice.
Some of us can’t eat ice cream and pizza. And some of us tried to be members of the community but were beaten into silence for relating our ‘CICO sure, but merely calorie counting wasn’t getting the scale to move for me’ experiences.
From our perspective we endured pedantic arguments and our points or questions stretched into straw man ridiculous statements and until we finally gave up. That is why some of us don’t stick around.
I have never seen a thread where someone was told that eating ice cream and pizza were *mandatory* in order to meet their goals.
"Calorie counting" (in the sense of logging and consistently hitting a calorie goal that puts one in a deficit) will work for everyone. This doesn't mean that everyone will be able to adhere to a calorie deficit regardless of the food choices they're making.
Some people find it easier to stay in a deficit when they employ certain strategies to ensure satiety -- these are things like reducing carbohydrates, focusing on volume, increasing protein, ensuring sufficient fiber, etc etc. When people find that certain things work for them and help them consistently stay in a deficit, I don't see them discouraged from doing those things. It's when they confuse these strategies with what is actually creating the weight loss (the deficit) or assume that these are strategies that all must adopt to be successful that things tend to get contentious.
I have never claimed or implied anyone said eating ice cream or pizza were mandatory. Example strawman.
There are plentiful posts saying “you don’t have to give up “X” and imo discouraging them from doing so. But I’m always told by the ‘regulars’ that I’m not reading it right... so I’m not going to be further engaged in giving examples for the usual suspects to deny (pedantically imo).
I just don’t think the continued participation or lack of participation in MFP boards confers any particular wisdom or insight. And decided to crawl out of my cave to say so. Lol12 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Funny enough, the ones who stick around, and are trying to really help others, are the ones in the first category. The people like you who suggest that anyone not bringing optimal nutrition into every single "is a calorie just a calorie" post is part of some cult... never seem to stick around.
So yeah, I'll continue to eat ice cream and pizza, and drink wine in moderation as part of an overall balanced diet, after achieving my weight loss goals and maintaining that healthy weight - get my 15K steps in at a slow pace, play with my kids instead of killing it at the gym, and continue to try to find fulfillment here as part of a member of this community.
Enjoy your broscience up there on your high horse. I'm sure the view is quite nice.
Some of us can’t eat ice cream and pizza. And some of us tried to be members of the community but were beaten into silence for relating our ‘CICO sure, but merely calorie counting wasn’t getting the scale to move for me’ experiences.
From our perspective we endured pedantic arguments and our points or questions stretched into straw man ridiculous statements and until we finally gave up. That is why some of us don’t stick around.
I have never seen a thread where someone was told that eating ice cream and pizza were *mandatory* in order to meet their goals.
"Calorie counting" (in the sense of logging and consistently hitting a calorie goal that puts one in a deficit) will work for everyone. This doesn't mean that everyone will be able to adhere to a calorie deficit regardless of the food choices they're making.
Some people find it easier to stay in a deficit when they employ certain strategies to ensure satiety -- these are things like reducing carbohydrates, focusing on volume, increasing protein, ensuring sufficient fiber, etc etc. When people find that certain things work for them and help them consistently stay in a deficit, I don't see them discouraged from doing those things. It's when they confuse these strategies with what is actually creating the weight loss (the deficit) or assume that these are strategies that all must adopt to be successful that things tend to get contentious.
And some people, unfortunately, fall on the lower side of the calorie requirement range, and find they need to eat below what "calculators" suggest, in order to achieve any particular rate of weight loss. This makes things harder, perhaps much harder . . . but it still isn't a failure of calorie counting, let alone a failure of CICO.8 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Funny enough, the ones who stick around, and are trying to really help others, are the ones in the first category. The people like you who suggest that anyone not bringing optimal nutrition into every single "is a calorie just a calorie" post is part of some cult... never seem to stick around.
So yeah, I'll continue to eat ice cream and pizza, and drink wine in moderation as part of an overall balanced diet, after achieving my weight loss goals and maintaining that healthy weight - get my 15K steps in at a slow pace, play with my kids instead of killing it at the gym, and continue to try to find fulfillment here as part of a member of this community.
Enjoy your broscience up there on your high horse. I'm sure the view is quite nice.
Some of us can’t eat ice cream and pizza. And some of us tried to be members of the community but were beaten into silence for relating our ‘CICO sure, but merely calorie counting wasn’t getting the scale to move for me’ experiences.
From our perspective we endured pedantic arguments and our points or questions stretched into straw man ridiculous statements and until we finally gave up. That is why some of us don’t stick around.
I have never seen a thread where someone was told that eating ice cream and pizza were *mandatory* in order to meet their goals.
"Calorie counting" (in the sense of logging and consistently hitting a calorie goal that puts one in a deficit) will work for everyone. This doesn't mean that everyone will be able to adhere to a calorie deficit regardless of the food choices they're making.
Some people find it easier to stay in a deficit when they employ certain strategies to ensure satiety -- these are things like reducing carbohydrates, focusing on volume, increasing protein, ensuring sufficient fiber, etc etc. When people find that certain things work for them and help them consistently stay in a deficit, I don't see them discouraged from doing those things. It's when they confuse these strategies with what is actually creating the weight loss (the deficit) or assume that these are strategies that all must adopt to be successful that things tend to get contentious.
I have never claimed or implied anyone said eating ice cream or pizza were mandatory. Example strawman.
There are plentiful posts saying “you don’t have to give up “X” and imo discouraging them from doing so. But I’m always told by the ‘regulars’ that I’m not reading it right... so I’m not going to be further engaged in giving examples for the usual suspects to deny (pedantically imo).
I just don’t think the continued participation or lack of participation in MFP boards confers any particular wisdom or insight. And decided to crawl out of my cave to say so. Lol
That was me misunderstanding you, it wasn't a strawman. I'm sorry I attributed that to you when it wasn't what you were saying.
I don't think you *should* participate here if you don't find it worthwhile, none of us should.
When I see people being told they don't have to give up things, they are things that they said they enjoy -- not things that they don't want to have.12 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Eating processed foods, carbs and sugar really do make me feel like garbage. I don't think I am alone in this. It is WAY easier to eat vegetables, eggs, lean meat and water only if you are going for a steep cut (2lbs+ per week). With a clean diet I can go to bed full on 1700 calories easy (1200 cal deficit). I can't imagine getting through a day after having a 400+ calorie sugary snack. I would wake up the next day with a sugar hangover unable to move. Whatever keeps you sane though.
Calories in-- calories out means everything though. I maintain and gain weight on the same foods, just more volume (and a lot of added butter!)
Nope - my greek yogurt with prepackaged granola and berries, my soup made with frozen vegetables, boxed chicken broth, lean ground beef, dried pasta and canned tomatoes do not make me feel like garbage. Nor does pizza, wine, and ice cream; eaten in moderation as part of an overall calorie appropriate diet. Nor is a 1200 calorie deficit appropriate for me or for most people - I'm already at a healthy weight, and even when I was losing, 0.5lb-1 lb /week was the rate of loss appropriate for my goals.
yogurt, broth, frozen veggies and beef certainly are not junk foods nor are they processed-- just canned, frozen etc.
Of course they are processed. What do you think processed means?I am glad that you can enjoy ice cream and pizza.
I'll note that neither of these is necessarily more processed than yogurt or smoked salmon or butter.
I make pizza at home on occasion, and while I don't grind the grain myself you can get a home grinder if you are that into "no processed." Beyond that, the ingredients are water and yeast (the crust), olive oil (processed, of course, but you could find a way to do without), garlic, tomatoes, whatever vegetables you add, whatever meat you add (I don't like meat on pizza, so don't, but have made pizzas for others with chicken, gotten them with shrimp at a cool local pizza place, so on). Oh, and usually cheese, which is about as processed as butter or yogurt.
Ice cream is even easier, as you can make it with cream, fruit, perhaps an egg, perhaps some milk, and whatever spices you want. Yes, it normally has sugar (although I used to make some low carb ice cream without it), but you can use honey or syrup for the sweetener.
So the focus on "processed food" seems kind of irrelevant to nutrients or whether food is high cal for the satiety or whatever.
I, like WinoGelato, don't find ice cream makes me feel bad at all, in a reasonable amount. I ate about 200 cal worth regularly when losing (I had exercise calories and otherwise ate a ton of vegetables and kept my protein up, so why not?).
Pizza is exactly as healthy/nutrient dense/caloric as you make it. I don't find it too different from pasta the way I make it (lots of vegetables), except not having meat on mine makes it harder to get enough protein so I usually have something else with it (also often have salad with it) or have extra protein in my other meals that day. (I do like an egg and ham and arugula on pizza, usually with something like asparagus or artichoke hearts).
Anyway, it doesn't make me feel bad.
Lower nutrient pizza choices in excess, without a sufficiently varied diet otherwise? Sure that would make me feel bad, but nothing unique about pizza.
Our disagreement is in semantics.
Half the threads on here are about people falling off the wagon after following IIFYM. I wonder why?
Strong cope on here. Enjoy your mediocrity goals of 2018.
lol. Mediocrity goals like inverted 1 hand wall press and planch push-up. Ok. Glad you’re so hard bro14 -
janejellyroll wrote: »
When I see people being told they don't have to give up things, they are things that they said they enjoy -- not things that they don't want to have.
Oh, I’m a normal gal. Of course I WANT ice cream and pizza. I just can not have it and remain at my maintenance weight. Obviously some other people can.
Yeah, I could skip a meal to give me calories for ice cream. And the small quantity would leave me wanting more, leave me much hungrier than a meal, and might trigger a binge. Calorie counting and CICO are close to irrelevant for my weight loss/ maintenance experience. How to find satiety and sustainable eating and avoid bingeing are the keys.
So I don’t deny CICO but it was next to useless to assisting me in losing and maintaining the weight. What I eat easily indicates the calories I need to consume to be satisfied.
Eat the wrong things ( or at the wrong times) and I will exceed my CO by a long shot or go hungry. And, honestly, I don’t think I’m the only one or a special snowflake- I think for lots of people the key to staying under calories out is WHAT (or when) they eat. I only calorie count now on days that I allow myself a treat or ‘fast days’(5:2) ‘Regular’ (non treat) food (bowl of steamed veggies with tomato sauce or chicken breast and spinach in lemon garlic sauce etc) I just consume a reasonable amount.
But whatever. Don’t know why my experience and opinion bothers folks so much.
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janejellyroll wrote: »Funny enough, the ones who stick around, and are trying to really help others, are the ones in the first category. The people like you who suggest that anyone not bringing optimal nutrition into every single "is a calorie just a calorie" post is part of some cult... never seem to stick around.
So yeah, I'll continue to eat ice cream and pizza, and drink wine in moderation as part of an overall balanced diet, after achieving my weight loss goals and maintaining that healthy weight - get my 15K steps in at a slow pace, play with my kids instead of killing it at the gym, and continue to try to find fulfillment here as part of a member of this community.
Enjoy your broscience up there on your high horse. I'm sure the view is quite nice.
Some of us can’t eat ice cream and pizza. And some of us tried to be members of the community but were beaten into silence for relating our ‘CICO sure, but merely calorie counting wasn’t getting the scale to move for me’ experiences.
From our perspective we endured pedantic arguments and our points or questions stretched into straw man ridiculous statements and until we finally gave up. That is why some of us don’t stick around.
I have never seen a thread where someone was told that eating ice cream and pizza were *mandatory* in order to meet their goals.
"Calorie counting" (in the sense of logging and consistently hitting a calorie goal that puts one in a deficit) will work for everyone. This doesn't mean that everyone will be able to adhere to a calorie deficit regardless of the food choices they're making.
Some people find it easier to stay in a deficit when they employ certain strategies to ensure satiety -- these are things like reducing carbohydrates, focusing on volume, increasing protein, ensuring sufficient fiber, etc etc. When people find that certain things work for them and help them consistently stay in a deficit, I don't see them discouraged from doing those things. It's when they confuse these strategies with what is actually creating the weight loss (the deficit) or assume that these are strategies that all must adopt to be successful that things tend to get contentious.
I have never claimed or implied anyone said eating ice cream or pizza were mandatory. Example strawman.
There are plentiful posts saying “you don’t have to give up “X” and imo discouraging them from doing so. But I’m always told by the ‘regulars’ that I’m not reading it right... so I’m not going to be further engaged in giving examples for the usual suspects to deny (pedantically imo).
I just don’t think the continued participation or lack of participation in MFP boards confers any particular wisdom or insight. And decided to crawl out of my cave to say so. Lol
Thank you! I simply brought up that I've noticed this same sort over behavior as I've recently been perusing the boards. First impression and all that. There's a lot good information here definitely. But I made one simple challenge, and I've been bombarded with nothing but name calling, and defensive posturing. Yeah I was being hyperbolic, by likening it to cult like behavior. Someone used the term mischaracterize, well after seeing the response I don't think I was wrong. There's literally a group of some of these same people from this thread, in another right now saying you can replace water with coffee its totally fine, just log your creamer. Look I'm a total coffee nut and drink too much of it, but I'm not going to delude myself into thinking its fine because its mostly water.26 -
janejellyroll wrote: »
When I see people being told they don't have to give up things, they are things that they said they enjoy -- not things that they don't want to have.
Oh, I’m a normal gal. Of course I WANT ice cream and pizza. I just can not have it and remain at my maintenance weight. Obviously some other people can.
Yeah, I could skip a meal to give me calories for ice cream. And the small quantity would leave me wanting more, leave me much hungrier than a meal, and might trigger a binge. Calorie counting and CICO are close to irrelevant for my weight loss/ maintenance experience. How to find satiety and sustainable eating and avoid bingeing are the keys.
So I don’t deny CICO but it was next to useless to assisting me in losing and maintaining the weight. What I eat easily indicates the calories I need to consume to be satisfied.
Eat the wrong things ( or at the wrong times) and I will exceed my CO by a long shot or go hungry. And, honestly, I don’t think I’m the only one or a special snowflake- I think for lots of people the key to staying under calories out is WHAT (or when) they eat. I only calorie count now on days that I allow myself a treat or ‘fast days’(5:2) ‘Regular’ (non treat) food (bowl of steamed veggies with tomato sauce or chicken breast and spinach in lemon garlic sauce etc) I just consume a reasonable amount.
But whatever. Don’t know why my experience and opinion bothers folks so much.
CICO isn't useless to you in losing and maintaining your weight -- it's literally how your weight loss and maintainance happens. People who have fewer calories to "play" with may decide it is easier to avoid certain foods than to eat them in the portions that will fit into their calorie goals, but this doesn't mean that their weight isn't still determined how everyone else's is (the balance of their calories in with their calories out).
Deciding not to eat something because you won't be satisfied with the portion that fits into your goals *is* a strategy that people use to help them maintain a deficit. It doesn't mean you can't have those things. It's a conscious and controlled decision that you don't want those things (although I understand it may not always feel that way).
Many people do find that what they eat and when they eat it are key components in how easy it is for them to maintain a calorie deficit. It's true for me -- certain choices mean that I will be much less satisfied in a given day, so I try to make those choices less often (like most people, I prefer comfort to discomfort). This doesn't mean that CICO doesn't work. It means that achieving an energy balance (or, for people who are trying to lose, a deficit) is a challenging thing to do in our current world of abundance where we have easy access to many tasty foods.
I don't think anyone is bothered by your experience and opinion (or, to speak just for myself, I know that I'm not).21
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