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Why do people deny CICO ?
Replies
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mutantspicy wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Funny enough, the ones who stick around, and are trying to really help others, are the ones in the first category. The people like you who suggest that anyone not bringing optimal nutrition into every single "is a calorie just a calorie" post is part of some cult... never seem to stick around.
So yeah, I'll continue to eat ice cream and pizza, and drink wine in moderation as part of an overall balanced diet, after achieving my weight loss goals and maintaining that healthy weight - get my 15K steps in at a slow pace, play with my kids instead of killing it at the gym, and continue to try to find fulfillment here as part of a member of this community.
Enjoy your broscience up there on your high horse. I'm sure the view is quite nice.
Some of us can’t eat ice cream and pizza. And some of us tried to be members of the community but were beaten into silence for relating our ‘CICO sure, but merely calorie counting wasn’t getting the scale to move for me’ experiences.
From our perspective we endured pedantic arguments and our points or questions stretched into straw man ridiculous statements and until we finally gave up. That is why some of us don’t stick around.
I have never seen a thread where someone was told that eating ice cream and pizza were *mandatory* in order to meet their goals.
"Calorie counting" (in the sense of logging and consistently hitting a calorie goal that puts one in a deficit) will work for everyone. This doesn't mean that everyone will be able to adhere to a calorie deficit regardless of the food choices they're making.
Some people find it easier to stay in a deficit when they employ certain strategies to ensure satiety -- these are things like reducing carbohydrates, focusing on volume, increasing protein, ensuring sufficient fiber, etc etc. When people find that certain things work for them and help them consistently stay in a deficit, I don't see them discouraged from doing those things. It's when they confuse these strategies with what is actually creating the weight loss (the deficit) or assume that these are strategies that all must adopt to be successful that things tend to get contentious.
I have never claimed or implied anyone said eating ice cream or pizza were mandatory. Example strawman.
There are plentiful posts saying “you don’t have to give up “X” and imo discouraging them from doing so. But I’m always told by the ‘regulars’ that I’m not reading it right... so I’m not going to be further engaged in giving examples for the usual suspects to deny (pedantically imo).
I just don’t think the continued participation or lack of participation in MFP boards confers any particular wisdom or insight. And decided to crawl out of my cave to say so. Lol
Thank you! I simply brought up that I've noticed this same sort over behavior as I've recently been perusing the boards. First impression and all that. There's a lot good information here definitely. But I made one simple challenge, and I've been bombarded with nothing but name calling, and defensive posturing. Yeah I was being hyperbolic, by likening it to cult like behavior. Someone used the term mischaracterize, well after seeing the response I don't think I was wrong. There's literally a group of some of these same people from this thread, in another right now saying you can replace water with coffee its totally fine, just log your creamer. Look I'm a total coffee nut and drink too much of it, but I'm not going to delude myself into thinking its fine because its mostly water.
Why is it delusional to think that drinking coffee is a perfectly okay behavior?19 -
mutantspicy wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Funny enough, the ones who stick around, and are trying to really help others, are the ones in the first category. The people like you who suggest that anyone not bringing optimal nutrition into every single "is a calorie just a calorie" post is part of some cult... never seem to stick around.
So yeah, I'll continue to eat ice cream and pizza, and drink wine in moderation as part of an overall balanced diet, after achieving my weight loss goals and maintaining that healthy weight - get my 15K steps in at a slow pace, play with my kids instead of killing it at the gym, and continue to try to find fulfillment here as part of a member of this community.
Enjoy your broscience up there on your high horse. I'm sure the view is quite nice.
Some of us can’t eat ice cream and pizza. And some of us tried to be members of the community but were beaten into silence for relating our ‘CICO sure, but merely calorie counting wasn’t getting the scale to move for me’ experiences.
From our perspective we endured pedantic arguments and our points or questions stretched into straw man ridiculous statements and until we finally gave up. That is why some of us don’t stick around.
I have never seen a thread where someone was told that eating ice cream and pizza were *mandatory* in order to meet their goals.
"Calorie counting" (in the sense of logging and consistently hitting a calorie goal that puts one in a deficit) will work for everyone. This doesn't mean that everyone will be able to adhere to a calorie deficit regardless of the food choices they're making.
Some people find it easier to stay in a deficit when they employ certain strategies to ensure satiety -- these are things like reducing carbohydrates, focusing on volume, increasing protein, ensuring sufficient fiber, etc etc. When people find that certain things work for them and help them consistently stay in a deficit, I don't see them discouraged from doing those things. It's when they confuse these strategies with what is actually creating the weight loss (the deficit) or assume that these are strategies that all must adopt to be successful that things tend to get contentious.
I have never claimed or implied anyone said eating ice cream or pizza were mandatory. Example strawman.
There are plentiful posts saying “you don’t have to give up “X” and imo discouraging them from doing so. But I’m always told by the ‘regulars’ that I’m not reading it right... so I’m not going to be further engaged in giving examples for the usual suspects to deny (pedantically imo).
I just don’t think the continued participation or lack of participation in MFP boards confers any particular wisdom or insight. And decided to crawl out of my cave to say so. Lol
Thank you! I simply brought up that I've noticed this same sort over behavior as I've recently been perusing the boards. First impression and all that. There's a lot good information here definitely. But I made one simple challenge, and I've been bombarded with nothing but name calling, and defensive posturing. Yeah I was being hyperbolic, by likening it to cult like behavior. Someone used the term mischaracterize, well after seeing the response I don't think I was wrong. There's literally a group of some of these same people from this thread, in another right now saying you can replace water with coffee its totally fine, just log your creamer. Look I'm a total coffee nut and drink too much of it, but I'm not going to delude myself into thinking its fine because its mostly water.
So now you're trying to say that adding coffee to water keeps it from hydrating you? Come on man. If that's that's the case I'm adding Crystal Light to vodka so I can drink it at work.
https://www.livescience.com/55479-does-caffeine-cause-dehydration.html17 -
mutantspicy wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Funny enough, the ones who stick around, and are trying to really help others, are the ones in the first category. The people like you who suggest that anyone not bringing optimal nutrition into every single "is a calorie just a calorie" post is part of some cult... never seem to stick around.
So yeah, I'll continue to eat ice cream and pizza, and drink wine in moderation as part of an overall balanced diet, after achieving my weight loss goals and maintaining that healthy weight - get my 15K steps in at a slow pace, play with my kids instead of killing it at the gym, and continue to try to find fulfillment here as part of a member of this community.
Enjoy your broscience up there on your high horse. I'm sure the view is quite nice.
Some of us can’t eat ice cream and pizza. And some of us tried to be members of the community but were beaten into silence for relating our ‘CICO sure, but merely calorie counting wasn’t getting the scale to move for me’ experiences.
From our perspective we endured pedantic arguments and our points or questions stretched into straw man ridiculous statements and until we finally gave up. That is why some of us don’t stick around.
I have never seen a thread where someone was told that eating ice cream and pizza were *mandatory* in order to meet their goals.
"Calorie counting" (in the sense of logging and consistently hitting a calorie goal that puts one in a deficit) will work for everyone. This doesn't mean that everyone will be able to adhere to a calorie deficit regardless of the food choices they're making.
Some people find it easier to stay in a deficit when they employ certain strategies to ensure satiety -- these are things like reducing carbohydrates, focusing on volume, increasing protein, ensuring sufficient fiber, etc etc. When people find that certain things work for them and help them consistently stay in a deficit, I don't see them discouraged from doing those things. It's when they confuse these strategies with what is actually creating the weight loss (the deficit) or assume that these are strategies that all must adopt to be successful that things tend to get contentious.
I have never claimed or implied anyone said eating ice cream or pizza were mandatory. Example strawman.
There are plentiful posts saying “you don’t have to give up “X” and imo discouraging them from doing so. But I’m always told by the ‘regulars’ that I’m not reading it right... so I’m not going to be further engaged in giving examples for the usual suspects to deny (pedantically imo).
I just don’t think the continued participation or lack of participation in MFP boards confers any particular wisdom or insight. And decided to crawl out of my cave to say so. Lol
Thank you! I simply brought up that I've noticed this same sort over behavior as I've recently been perusing the boards. First impression and all that. There's a lot good information here definitely. But I made one simple challenge, and I've been bombarded with nothing but name calling, and defensive posturing. Yeah I was being hyperbolic, by likening it to cult like behavior. Someone used the term mischaracterize, well after seeing the response I don't think I was wrong. There's literally a group of some of these same people from this thread, in another right now saying you can replace water with coffee its totally fine, just log your creamer. Look I'm a total coffee nut and drink too much of it, but I'm not going to delude myself into thinking its fine because its mostly water.
Mean people threads are reserved for Fridays. I'm sorry, but you'll have to wait two days before derailing this thread much further.25 -
janejellyroll wrote: »
When I see people being told they don't have to give up things, they are things that they said they enjoy -- not things that they don't want to have.
Oh, I’m a normal gal. Of course I WANT ice cream and pizza. I just can not have it and remain at my maintenance weight. Obviously some other people can.
Yeah, I could skip a meal to give me calories for ice cream. And the small quantity would leave me wanting more, leave me much hungrier than a meal, and might trigger a binge. Calorie counting and CICO are close to irrelevant for my weight loss/ maintenance experience. How to find satiety and sustainable eating and avoid bingeing are the keys.
So I don’t deny CICO but it was next to useless to assisting me in losing and maintaining the weight. What I eat easily indicates the calories I need to consume to be satisfied.
Eat the wrong things ( or at the wrong times) and I will exceed my CO by a long shot or go hungry. And, honestly, I don’t think I’m the only one or a special snowflake- I think for lots of people the key to staying under calories out is WHAT (or when) they eat. I only calorie count now on days that I allow myself a treat or ‘fast days’(5:2) ‘Regular’ (non treat) food (bowl of steamed veggies with tomato sauce or chicken breast and spinach in lemon garlic sauce etc) I just consume a reasonable amount.
But whatever. Don’t know why my experience and opinion bothers folks so much.
I'm missing something here, and always have about your posts, because quite frankly, you misrepresent what CICO means.
While I have a much higher TDEE than you, I have to do EXACTLY what you do in order to remain compliant with my calorie goals. While I don't 5:2, I do practice intermittent fasting and eat within a small window. I also am particular about food choice to maximize satiety and nutrition.
NONE of that means that I am not operating within the parameters of CICO. My weight is still regulated by those principles. The other things like satiety and my eating window are things I need to do to make adherence to my calorie goals easier.
I think, from what I can recall of your threads, a lot of push back you experienced was because of saying things like "Calorie counting and CICO are close to irrelevant" and not seeming to take on board that you're implementing them whether you realize it or not with your other strategies.
In other words, what you have here, is a failure to communicate.
No one denies that some people have a harder time than others. Where the problem comes in is when people start to say that CICO didn't work for them or something like that, demonstrating that they clearly don't understand what CICO actually is and means.20 -
janejellyroll wrote: »mutantspicy wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Funny enough, the ones who stick around, and are trying to really help others, are the ones in the first category. The people like you who suggest that anyone not bringing optimal nutrition into every single "is a calorie just a calorie" post is part of some cult... never seem to stick around.
So yeah, I'll continue to eat ice cream and pizza, and drink wine in moderation as part of an overall balanced diet, after achieving my weight loss goals and maintaining that healthy weight - get my 15K steps in at a slow pace, play with my kids instead of killing it at the gym, and continue to try to find fulfillment here as part of a member of this community.
Enjoy your broscience up there on your high horse. I'm sure the view is quite nice.
Some of us can’t eat ice cream and pizza. And some of us tried to be members of the community but were beaten into silence for relating our ‘CICO sure, but merely calorie counting wasn’t getting the scale to move for me’ experiences.
From our perspective we endured pedantic arguments and our points or questions stretched into straw man ridiculous statements and until we finally gave up. That is why some of us don’t stick around.
I have never seen a thread where someone was told that eating ice cream and pizza were *mandatory* in order to meet their goals.
"Calorie counting" (in the sense of logging and consistently hitting a calorie goal that puts one in a deficit) will work for everyone. This doesn't mean that everyone will be able to adhere to a calorie deficit regardless of the food choices they're making.
Some people find it easier to stay in a deficit when they employ certain strategies to ensure satiety -- these are things like reducing carbohydrates, focusing on volume, increasing protein, ensuring sufficient fiber, etc etc. When people find that certain things work for them and help them consistently stay in a deficit, I don't see them discouraged from doing those things. It's when they confuse these strategies with what is actually creating the weight loss (the deficit) or assume that these are strategies that all must adopt to be successful that things tend to get contentious.
I have never claimed or implied anyone said eating ice cream or pizza were mandatory. Example strawman.
There are plentiful posts saying “you don’t have to give up “X” and imo discouraging them from doing so. But I’m always told by the ‘regulars’ that I’m not reading it right... so I’m not going to be further engaged in giving examples for the usual suspects to deny (pedantically imo).
I just don’t think the continued participation or lack of participation in MFP boards confers any particular wisdom or insight. And decided to crawl out of my cave to say so. Lol
Thank you! I simply brought up that I've noticed this same sort over behavior as I've recently been perusing the boards. First impression and all that. There's a lot good information here definitely. But I made one simple challenge, and I've been bombarded with nothing but name calling, and defensive posturing. Yeah I was being hyperbolic, by likening it to cult like behavior. Someone used the term mischaracterize, well after seeing the response I don't think I was wrong. There's literally a group of some of these same people from this thread, in another right now saying you can replace water with coffee its totally fine, just log your creamer. Look I'm a total coffee nut and drink too much of it, but I'm not going to delude myself into thinking its fine because its mostly water.
Why is it delusional to think that drinking coffee is a perfectly okay behavior?
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mutantspicy wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Funny enough, the ones who stick around, and are trying to really help others, are the ones in the first category. The people like you who suggest that anyone not bringing optimal nutrition into every single "is a calorie just a calorie" post is part of some cult... never seem to stick around.
So yeah, I'll continue to eat ice cream and pizza, and drink wine in moderation as part of an overall balanced diet, after achieving my weight loss goals and maintaining that healthy weight - get my 15K steps in at a slow pace, play with my kids instead of killing it at the gym, and continue to try to find fulfillment here as part of a member of this community.
Enjoy your broscience up there on your high horse. I'm sure the view is quite nice.
Some of us can’t eat ice cream and pizza. And some of us tried to be members of the community but were beaten into silence for relating our ‘CICO sure, but merely calorie counting wasn’t getting the scale to move for me’ experiences.
From our perspective we endured pedantic arguments and our points or questions stretched into straw man ridiculous statements and until we finally gave up. That is why some of us don’t stick around.
I have never seen a thread where someone was told that eating ice cream and pizza were *mandatory* in order to meet their goals.
"Calorie counting" (in the sense of logging and consistently hitting a calorie goal that puts one in a deficit) will work for everyone. This doesn't mean that everyone will be able to adhere to a calorie deficit regardless of the food choices they're making.
Some people find it easier to stay in a deficit when they employ certain strategies to ensure satiety -- these are things like reducing carbohydrates, focusing on volume, increasing protein, ensuring sufficient fiber, etc etc. When people find that certain things work for them and help them consistently stay in a deficit, I don't see them discouraged from doing those things. It's when they confuse these strategies with what is actually creating the weight loss (the deficit) or assume that these are strategies that all must adopt to be successful that things tend to get contentious.
I have never claimed or implied anyone said eating ice cream or pizza were mandatory. Example strawman.
There are plentiful posts saying “you don’t have to give up “X” and imo discouraging them from doing so. But I’m always told by the ‘regulars’ that I’m not reading it right... so I’m not going to be further engaged in giving examples for the usual suspects to deny (pedantically imo).
I just don’t think the continued participation or lack of participation in MFP boards confers any particular wisdom or insight. And decided to crawl out of my cave to say so. Lol
Thank you! I simply brought up that I've noticed this same sort over behavior as I've recently been perusing the boards. First impression and all that. There's a lot good information here definitely. But I made one simple challenge, and I've been bombarded with nothing but name calling, and defensive posturing. Yeah I was being hyperbolic, by likening it to cult like behavior. Someone used the term mischaracterize, well after seeing the response I don't think I was wrong. There's literally a group of some of these same people from this thread, in another right now saying you can replace water with coffee its totally fine, just log your creamer. Look I'm a total coffee nut and drink too much of it, but I'm not going to delude myself into thinking its fine because its mostly water.
See, I'm the one who used the word mis-characterize, and I posted in the coffee thread, so I'm gonna say I think you're mis-characterizing. The OP in that thread asked if she can count coffee in her water goal, and we told her yes. We didn't say she should replace all water with coffee. We didn't say she should drink a ton of coffee. In fact, if I'm remembering correctly, several answers told her if her pee is light, she's good.
Barring health concerns, there is nothing unhealthy about having a cup of coffee and it does hydrate. If she had asked, "can I just drink coffee all day rather than water", she would've gotten different answers.
Did you read her post as she wanted to drink nothing but coffee? Or do you believe that drinking 2 cups of coffee and 6 cups of water per day is unhealthy?20 -
Did you read her post as she wanted to drink nothing but coffee? Or do you believe that drinking 2 cups of coffee and 6 cups of water per day is unhealthy?
2 LOL. I hit that by 7am.
I drink coffee until noon. It hydrates me fine. I might hit 6 cups by then. I stop at noon (and switch to water) as I've learned if I drink it much later than that, I have sleep issues. But it hydrates just fine, my pee is just fine (thank you) and gave up counting water a long time ago.
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TicoCortez wrote: »
Dom is funny and obviously satirical but most of the guys and gals I know that are in fantastic shape follow strict "bro diets" (chicken breast and broccoli) and "bro splits" (low frequency/ high volume training).
correlation =/= casuation
I agree that a lot of it is correlation. Still, me thinks that healthy food (high fiber, high protein, low sugar) = more energy = harder training and better recovery.
And for people who have no interest in "harder training" and following bro diets and bro splits to achieve "fantastic shape"? What do you recommend for them? Still need to avoid eating whatever your definition of processed food/junk food is?9 -
stanmann571 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Eating processed foods, carbs and sugar really do make me feel like garbage. I don't think I am alone in this. It is WAY easier to eat vegetables, eggs, lean meat and water only if you are going for a steep cut (2lbs+ per week). With a clean diet I can go to bed full on 1700 calories easy (1200 cal deficit). I can't imagine getting through a day after having a 400+ calorie sugary snack. I would wake up the next day with a sugar hangover unable to move. Whatever keeps you sane though.
Calories in-- calories out means everything though. I maintain and gain weight on the same foods, just more volume (and a lot of added butter!)
Nope - my greek yogurt with prepackaged granola and berries, my soup made with frozen vegetables, boxed chicken broth, lean ground beef, dried pasta and canned tomatoes do not make me feel like garbage. Nor does pizza, wine, and ice cream; eaten in moderation as part of an overall calorie appropriate diet. Nor is a 1200 calorie deficit appropriate for me or for most people - I'm already at a healthy weight, and even when I was losing, 0.5lb-1 lb /week was the rate of loss appropriate for my goals.
yogurt, broth, frozen veggies and beef certainly are not junk foods nor are they processed-- just canned, frozen etc.
Of course they are processed. What do you think processed means?I am glad that you can enjoy ice cream and pizza.
I'll note that neither of these is necessarily more processed than yogurt or smoked salmon or butter.
I make pizza at home on occasion, and while I don't grind the grain myself you can get a home grinder if you are that into "no processed." Beyond that, the ingredients are water and yeast (the crust), olive oil (processed, of course, but you could find a way to do without), garlic, tomatoes, whatever vegetables you add, whatever meat you add (I don't like meat on pizza, so don't, but have made pizzas for others with chicken, gotten them with shrimp at a cool local pizza place, so on). Oh, and usually cheese, which is about as processed as butter or yogurt.
Ice cream is even easier, as you can make it with cream, fruit, perhaps an egg, perhaps some milk, and whatever spices you want. Yes, it normally has sugar (although I used to make some low carb ice cream without it), but you can use honey or syrup for the sweetener.
So the focus on "processed food" seems kind of irrelevant to nutrients or whether food is high cal for the satiety or whatever.
I, like WinoGelato, don't find ice cream makes me feel bad at all, in a reasonable amount. I ate about 200 cal worth regularly when losing (I had exercise calories and otherwise ate a ton of vegetables and kept my protein up, so why not?).
Pizza is exactly as healthy/nutrient dense/caloric as you make it. I don't find it too different from pasta the way I make it (lots of vegetables), except not having meat on mine makes it harder to get enough protein so I usually have something else with it (also often have salad with it) or have extra protein in my other meals that day. (I do like an egg and ham and arugula on pizza, usually with something like asparagus or artichoke hearts).
Anyway, it doesn't make me feel bad.
Lower nutrient pizza choices in excess, without a sufficiently varied diet otherwise? Sure that would make me feel bad, but nothing unique about pizza.
Our disagreement is in semantics.
Half the threads on here are about people falling off the wagon after following IIFYM. I wonder why?
Strong cope on here. Enjoy your mediocrity goals of 2018.
lol. Mediocrity goals like inverted 1 hand wall press and planch push-up. Ok. Glad you’re so hard bro
Planch push-ups are impressive. That's a sturdy goal. Wasn't talking to you if that is the case.
I am hard, bro. You're not my type tho sorry.13 -
Funny enough, the ones who stick around, and are trying to really help others, are the ones in the first category. The people like you who suggest that anyone not bringing optimal nutrition into every single "is a calorie just a calorie" post is part of some cult... never seem to stick around.
So yeah, I'll continue to eat ice cream and pizza, and drink wine in moderation as part of an overall balanced diet, after achieving my weight loss goals and maintaining that healthy weight - get my 15K steps in at a slow pace, play with my kids instead of killing it at the gym, and continue to try to find fulfillment here as part of a member of this community.
Enjoy your broscience up there on your high horse. I'm sure the view is quite nice.
Some of us can’t eat ice cream and pizza. And some of us tried to be members of the community but were beaten into silence for relating our ‘CICO sure, but merely calorie counting wasn’t getting the scale to move for me’ experiences.
From our perspective we endured pedantic arguments and our points or questions stretched into straw man ridiculous statements and until we finally gave up. That is why some of us don’t stick around.
CICO is not calorie counting. It is an energy balance, and it is immutable. That doesn't mean that it is easy or intuitive for everyone to manipulate to achieve their desired results - but you seem to want to believe that you are a special snowflake for whom CICO doesn't apply. It's just not the case. You've stated repeatedly that you're an outlier, your maintenance calories are lower than someone else of similar stats. Ok, that's fine. I'm on the higher end - we balance each other out. You need less CI because you have less CO. That doesn't invalidate CICO, it just changes your starting point.
You've found a way of eating, and an IF plan that enables you to achieve a calorie deficit. Congratulations, you've managed to manipulate the CICO balance in the favor of CI<CO. That is all that any of us are recommending that someone does. Some people do IF, some people cut out certain calorie dense foods, some people increase their activity level so that they can accommodate more calories, some take diet breaks and focus on refeeds to keep their metabolism higher - these are all individualized strategies but they all just tools to manipulate CICO to achieve the desired results.
I'm sorry you feel you have been beaten into silence but challenging your misunderstanding of what CICO is, and how it works, isn't telling you that you should give up and not stick around. I'm glad you are finding success, I remember from your previous posts that you've been quite frustrated.14 -
WinoGelato wrote: »TicoCortez wrote: »
Dom is funny and obviously satirical but most of the guys and gals I know that are in fantastic shape follow strict "bro diets" (chicken breast and broccoli) and "bro splits" (low frequency/ high volume training).
correlation =/= casuation
I agree that a lot of it is correlation. Still, me thinks that healthy food (high fiber, high protein, low sugar) = more energy = harder training and better recovery.
And for people who have no interest in "harder training" and following bro diets and bro splits to achieve "fantastic shape"? What do you recommend for them? Still need to avoid eating whatever your definition of processed food/junk food is?
I recommend trying eating a diet full of whole foods for a month and pay attention to how it affects your cognition and energy levels. If you think eating pasta if worth it still then go for it.25 -
WinoGelato wrote: »TicoCortez wrote: »
Dom is funny and obviously satirical but most of the guys and gals I know that are in fantastic shape follow strict "bro diets" (chicken breast and broccoli) and "bro splits" (low frequency/ high volume training).
correlation =/= casuation
I agree that a lot of it is correlation. Still, me thinks that healthy food (high fiber, high protein, low sugar) = more energy = harder training and better recovery.
And for people who have no interest in "harder training" and following bro diets and bro splits to achieve "fantastic shape"? What do you recommend for them? Still need to avoid eating whatever your definition of processed food/junk food is?
I recommend trying eating a diet full of whole foods for a month and pay attention to how it affects your cognition and energy levels. If you think eating pasta if worth it still then go for it.
Here's the thing.
I don't WANT to. I want to enjoy pizza, ice cream etc. and just make it fit my calorie goals. And lose weight while doing it (although I'm not really trying to lose right now). And pasta helps fuel my long runs. Because I'd rather go run for 90 minutes outside then spend 90 minutes inside lifting. I lift because I feel I should, but I'd rather be out running so I have carbs to help fuel it.
So, my goals (getting under a 1 hour 10K) are different from your goals. And, as far as I'm concerned, that's fine. You have your goals and fuel to succeed at them. But don't think that everyone shares your goals. Or that everyone should.19 -
Sigh. My diet includes eggs AND veggie 'meats', quinoa AND pasta. Sometimes it's whole-grain pasta. My energy and cognition levels are just fine, TYVM, so long as I get adequate protein and run a modest deficit.9
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estherdragonbat wrote: »Sigh. My diet includes eggs AND veggie 'meats', quinoa AND pasta. Sometimes it's whole-grain pasta. My energy and cognition levels are just fine, TYVM, so long as I get adequate protein and run a modest deficit.
Sure, they're fine, but are they
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WinoGelato wrote: »TicoCortez wrote: »
Dom is funny and obviously satirical but most of the guys and gals I know that are in fantastic shape follow strict "bro diets" (chicken breast and broccoli) and "bro splits" (low frequency/ high volume training).
correlation =/= casuation
I agree that a lot of it is correlation. Still, me thinks that healthy food (high fiber, high protein, low sugar) = more energy = harder training and better recovery.
And for people who have no interest in "harder training" and following bro diets and bro splits to achieve "fantastic shape"? What do you recommend for them? Still need to avoid eating whatever your definition of processed food/junk food is?
I recommend trying eating a diet full of whole foods for a month and pay attention to how it affects your cognition and energy levels. If you think eating pasta if worth it still then go for it.
So why exactly is pasta, which I have pretty often in many different styles - but usually sauteed shrimp, asparagus, zucchini and squash in an light olive oil and garlic sauce hurting my cognition? What cognition issues do you think I'm having? Energy levels are also just fine, for someone who works about 50-60 hours/week, has two young kids, keeps a tidy house and fits in a decent amount of exercise in my 24 hours each day as well.
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Coffe is interesting. I remember in high school there was a challenge circling around to eat a teaspoon of instant coffee. Makes me wonder, if you drink the water, then eat the coffee, does that nullify your hydration or will the coffee need to be dissolved in water for it not to count as water?11
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WinoGelato wrote: »TicoCortez wrote: »
Dom is funny and obviously satirical but most of the guys and gals I know that are in fantastic shape follow strict "bro diets" (chicken breast and broccoli) and "bro splits" (low frequency/ high volume training).
correlation =/= casuation
I agree that a lot of it is correlation. Still, me thinks that healthy food (high fiber, high protein, low sugar) = more energy = harder training and better recovery.
And for people who have no interest in "harder training" and following bro diets and bro splits to achieve "fantastic shape"? What do you recommend for them? Still need to avoid eating whatever your definition of processed food/junk food is?
I recommend trying eating a diet full of whole foods for a month and pay attention to how it affects your cognition and energy levels. If you think eating pasta if worth it still then go for it.
I come from an Italian-American family where pasta, Italian bread, beer and wine, coffee with sugar, and Entenmann's coffee cake or doughnuts as a part of the diet almost every day is typical. They also eat a lot of veggies and beans too. Lots of 90+ year olds as each generation gets there. A bunch of engineers and accountants too, so their cognition seems to be fine. Forget about the branches still in Italy, along with the other side of my family in Germany, lots of old healthy people having their pretzels with a beer. I mean, I guess they're not winning bikini competitions or breaking You Tube follow records with their sick lifting videos, but I'm gonna keep my pasta. Thanks though.21 -
WinoGelato wrote: »TicoCortez wrote: »
Dom is funny and obviously satirical but most of the guys and gals I know that are in fantastic shape follow strict "bro diets" (chicken breast and broccoli) and "bro splits" (low frequency/ high volume training).
correlation =/= casuation
I agree that a lot of it is correlation. Still, me thinks that healthy food (high fiber, high protein, low sugar) = more energy = harder training and better recovery.
And for people who have no interest in "harder training" and following bro diets and bro splits to achieve "fantastic shape"? What do you recommend for them? Still need to avoid eating whatever your definition of processed food/junk food is?
I recommend trying eating a diet full of whole foods for a month and pay attention to how it affects your cognition and energy levels. If you think eating pasta if worth it still then go for it.
Have any objective evidence supporting superiority of this practice?11 -
WinoGelato wrote: »TicoCortez wrote: »
Dom is funny and obviously satirical but most of the guys and gals I know that are in fantastic shape follow strict "bro diets" (chicken breast and broccoli) and "bro splits" (low frequency/ high volume training).
correlation =/= casuation
I agree that a lot of it is correlation. Still, me thinks that healthy food (high fiber, high protein, low sugar) = more energy = harder training and better recovery.
And for people who have no interest in "harder training" and following bro diets and bro splits to achieve "fantastic shape"? What do you recommend for them? Still need to avoid eating whatever your definition of processed food/junk food is?
I recommend trying eating a diet full of whole foods for a month and pay attention to how it affects your cognition and energy levels. If you think eating pasta if worth it still then go for it.
Have any objective evidence supporting superiority of this practice?
Try google. Keywords: inflammation, gut micro-biome, cognition, sugar/ glucose.29 -
WinoGelato wrote: »TicoCortez wrote: »
Dom is funny and obviously satirical but most of the guys and gals I know that are in fantastic shape follow strict "bro diets" (chicken breast and broccoli) and "bro splits" (low frequency/ high volume training).
correlation =/= casuation
I agree that a lot of it is correlation. Still, me thinks that healthy food (high fiber, high protein, low sugar) = more energy = harder training and better recovery.
And for people who have no interest in "harder training" and following bro diets and bro splits to achieve "fantastic shape"? What do you recommend for them? Still need to avoid eating whatever your definition of processed food/junk food is?
I recommend trying eating a diet full of whole foods for a month and pay attention to how it affects your cognition and energy levels. If you think eating pasta if worth it still then go for it.
Have any objective evidence supporting superiority of this practice?
Try google. Keywords: inflammation, gut micro-biome, cognition, sugar/ glucose.
google flat earth29 -
WinoGelato wrote: »TicoCortez wrote: »
Dom is funny and obviously satirical but most of the guys and gals I know that are in fantastic shape follow strict "bro diets" (chicken breast and broccoli) and "bro splits" (low frequency/ high volume training).
correlation =/= casuation
I agree that a lot of it is correlation. Still, me thinks that healthy food (high fiber, high protein, low sugar) = more energy = harder training and better recovery.
And for people who have no interest in "harder training" and following bro diets and bro splits to achieve "fantastic shape"? What do you recommend for them? Still need to avoid eating whatever your definition of processed food/junk food is?
I recommend trying eating a diet full of whole foods for a month and pay attention to how it affects your cognition and energy levels. If you think eating pasta if worth it still then go for it.
Have any objective evidence supporting superiority of this practice?
Try google. Keywords: inflammation, gut micro-biome, cognition, sugar/ glucose.
Lol. R U SRIUS. Google.
Not a source or objective evidence.
Keywords. Flat earth proof
Keywords fake moon landing16 -
mutantspicy wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Funny enough, the ones who stick around, and are trying to really help others, are the ones in the first category. The people like you who suggest that anyone not bringing optimal nutrition into every single "is a calorie just a calorie" post is part of some cult... never seem to stick around.
So yeah, I'll continue to eat ice cream and pizza, and drink wine in moderation as part of an overall balanced diet, after achieving my weight loss goals and maintaining that healthy weight - get my 15K steps in at a slow pace, play with my kids instead of killing it at the gym, and continue to try to find fulfillment here as part of a member of this community.
Enjoy your broscience up there on your high horse. I'm sure the view is quite nice.
Some of us can’t eat ice cream and pizza. And some of us tried to be members of the community but were beaten into silence for relating our ‘CICO sure, but merely calorie counting wasn’t getting the scale to move for me’ experiences.
From our perspective we endured pedantic arguments and our points or questions stretched into straw man ridiculous statements and until we finally gave up. That is why some of us don’t stick around.
I have never seen a thread where someone was told that eating ice cream and pizza were *mandatory* in order to meet their goals.
"Calorie counting" (in the sense of logging and consistently hitting a calorie goal that puts one in a deficit) will work for everyone. This doesn't mean that everyone will be able to adhere to a calorie deficit regardless of the food choices they're making.
Some people find it easier to stay in a deficit when they employ certain strategies to ensure satiety -- these are things like reducing carbohydrates, focusing on volume, increasing protein, ensuring sufficient fiber, etc etc. When people find that certain things work for them and help them consistently stay in a deficit, I don't see them discouraged from doing those things. It's when they confuse these strategies with what is actually creating the weight loss (the deficit) or assume that these are strategies that all must adopt to be successful that things tend to get contentious.
I have never claimed or implied anyone said eating ice cream or pizza were mandatory. Example strawman.
There are plentiful posts saying “you don’t have to give up “X” and imo discouraging them from doing so. But I’m always told by the ‘regulars’ that I’m not reading it right... so I’m not going to be further engaged in giving examples for the usual suspects to deny (pedantically imo).
I just don’t think the continued participation or lack of participation in MFP boards confers any particular wisdom or insight. And decided to crawl out of my cave to say so. Lol
Thank you! I simply brought up that I've noticed this same sort over behavior as I've recently been perusing the boards. First impression and all that. There's a lot good information here definitely. But I made one simple challenge, and I've been bombarded with nothing but name calling, and defensive posturing. Yeah I was being hyperbolic, by likening it to cult like behavior. Someone used the term mischaracterize, well after seeing the response I don't think I was wrong. There's literally a group of some of these same people from this thread, in another right now saying you can replace water with coffee its totally fine, just log your creamer. Look I'm a total coffee nut and drink too much of it, but I'm not going to delude myself into thinking its fine because its mostly water.
See, I'm the one who used the word mis-characterize, and I posted in the coffee thread, so I'm gonna say I think you're mis-characterizing. The OP in that thread asked if she can count coffee in her water goal, and we told her yes. We didn't say she should replace all water with coffee. We didn't say she should drink a ton of coffee. In fact, if I'm remembering correctly, several answers told her if her pee is light, she's good.
Barring health concerns, there is nothing unhealthy about having a cup of coffee and it does hydrate. If she had asked, "can I just drink coffee all day rather than water", she would've gotten different answers.
Did you read her post as she wanted to drink nothing but coffee? Or do you believe that drinking 2 cups of coffee and 6 cups of water per day is unhealthy?
Yes, exactly. She even clarified: "Just don't want to give up my coffee, one of the few good things I have left!"
Personally (as someone who said coffee is fine, no need to count water, check your pee if worried), I'd never suggest someone not consume water, as I don't even understand not wanting to consume water, it is something I never even realized people had issues with pre MFP. I love water and feel better (probably mental) when I consume plenty of it. But this idea that people's health will be at risk if they get all their water from decaf coffee or tea (since of course caffeine can be consumed in excess) is odd (as well as irrelevant to what was actually asked in that particular thread), and I'd like the PP to explain how. Personally, as a post exercise/during exercise drink it would make me gag, but that's about the only thing I see, since it is basically water.5 -
Google key word: internet confirmation bias18
-
L1zardQueen wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »TicoCortez wrote: »
Dom is funny and obviously satirical but most of the guys and gals I know that are in fantastic shape follow strict "bro diets" (chicken breast and broccoli) and "bro splits" (low frequency/ high volume training).
correlation =/= casuation
I agree that a lot of it is correlation. Still, me thinks that healthy food (high fiber, high protein, low sugar) = more energy = harder training and better recovery.
And for people who have no interest in "harder training" and following bro diets and bro splits to achieve "fantastic shape"? What do you recommend for them? Still need to avoid eating whatever your definition of processed food/junk food is?
I recommend trying eating a diet full of whole foods for a month and pay attention to how it affects your cognition and energy levels. If you think eating pasta if worth it still then go for it.
Have any objective evidence supporting superiority of this practice?
Try google. Keywords: inflammation, gut micro-biome, cognition, sugar/ glucose.
google flat earth
14 -
WinoGelato wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »TicoCortez wrote: »
Dom is funny and obviously satirical but most of the guys and gals I know that are in fantastic shape follow strict "bro diets" (chicken breast and broccoli) and "bro splits" (low frequency/ high volume training).
correlation =/= casuation
I agree that a lot of it is correlation. Still, me thinks that healthy food (high fiber, high protein, low sugar) = more energy = harder training and better recovery.
And for people who have no interest in "harder training" and following bro diets and bro splits to achieve "fantastic shape"? What do you recommend for them? Still need to avoid eating whatever your definition of processed food/junk food is?
I recommend trying eating a diet full of whole foods for a month and pay attention to how it affects your cognition and energy levels. If you think eating pasta if worth it still then go for it.
So why exactly is pasta, which I have pretty often in many different styles - but usually sauteed shrimp, asparagus, zucchini and squash in an light olive oil and garlic sauce hurting my cognition? What cognition issues do you think I'm having? Energy levels are also just fine, for someone who works about 50-60 hours/week, has two young kids, keeps a tidy house and fits in a decent amount of exercise in my 24 hours each day as well.
Pretty much all research on health in the past 10 years has eluded to the the fact that everybody digests and reacts differently to certain foods. That is why I said that I would recommend trying for a month.
Do what you want and I'm glad that you have found your way.17 -
WinoGelato wrote: »TicoCortez wrote: »
Dom is funny and obviously satirical but most of the guys and gals I know that are in fantastic shape follow strict "bro diets" (chicken breast and broccoli) and "bro splits" (low frequency/ high volume training).
correlation =/= casuation
I agree that a lot of it is correlation. Still, me thinks that healthy food (high fiber, high protein, low sugar) = more energy = harder training and better recovery.
And for people who have no interest in "harder training" and following bro diets and bro splits to achieve "fantastic shape"? What do you recommend for them? Still need to avoid eating whatever your definition of processed food/junk food is?
I recommend trying eating a diet full of whole foods for a month and pay attention to how it affects your cognition and energy levels. If you think eating pasta if worth it still then go for it.
Have any objective evidence supporting superiority of this practice?WinoGelato wrote: »TicoCortez wrote: »
Dom is funny and obviously satirical but most of the guys and gals I know that are in fantastic shape follow strict "bro diets" (chicken breast and broccoli) and "bro splits" (low frequency/ high volume training).
correlation =/= casuation
I agree that a lot of it is correlation. Still, me thinks that healthy food (high fiber, high protein, low sugar) = more energy = harder training and better recovery.
And for people who have no interest in "harder training" and following bro diets and bro splits to achieve "fantastic shape"? What do you recommend for them? Still need to avoid eating whatever your definition of processed food/junk food is?
I recommend trying eating a diet full of whole foods for a month and pay attention to how it affects your cognition and energy levels. If you think eating pasta if worth it still then go for it.
Have any objective evidence supporting superiority of this practice?
Try google. Keywords: inflammation, gut micro-biome, cognition, sugar/ glucose.
Surprise, surprise. Guy won't even cite his sources.
"What, you don't believe me? To the google machine with you!"16 -
WinoGelato wrote: »TicoCortez wrote: »
Dom is funny and obviously satirical but most of the guys and gals I know that are in fantastic shape follow strict "bro diets" (chicken breast and broccoli) and "bro splits" (low frequency/ high volume training).
correlation =/= casuation
I agree that a lot of it is correlation. Still, me thinks that healthy food (high fiber, high protein, low sugar) = more energy = harder training and better recovery.
And for people who have no interest in "harder training" and following bro diets and bro splits to achieve "fantastic shape"? What do you recommend for them? Still need to avoid eating whatever your definition of processed food/junk food is?
I recommend trying eating a diet full of whole foods for a month and pay attention to how it affects your cognition and energy levels. If you think eating pasta if worth it still then go for it.
Have any objective evidence supporting superiority of this practice?WinoGelato wrote: »TicoCortez wrote: »
Dom is funny and obviously satirical but most of the guys and gals I know that are in fantastic shape follow strict "bro diets" (chicken breast and broccoli) and "bro splits" (low frequency/ high volume training).
correlation =/= casuation
I agree that a lot of it is correlation. Still, me thinks that healthy food (high fiber, high protein, low sugar) = more energy = harder training and better recovery.
And for people who have no interest in "harder training" and following bro diets and bro splits to achieve "fantastic shape"? What do you recommend for them? Still need to avoid eating whatever your definition of processed food/junk food is?
I recommend trying eating a diet full of whole foods for a month and pay attention to how it affects your cognition and energy levels. If you think eating pasta if worth it still then go for it.
Have any objective evidence supporting superiority of this practice?
Try google. Keywords: inflammation, gut micro-biome, cognition, sugar/ glucose.
Surprise, surprise. Guy won't even cite his sources.
"What, you don't believe me? To the google machine with you!"
Would you really read a 20 page research paper?11 -
WinoGelato wrote: »TicoCortez wrote: »
Dom is funny and obviously satirical but most of the guys and gals I know that are in fantastic shape follow strict "bro diets" (chicken breast and broccoli) and "bro splits" (low frequency/ high volume training).
correlation =/= casuation
I agree that a lot of it is correlation. Still, me thinks that healthy food (high fiber, high protein, low sugar) = more energy = harder training and better recovery.
And for people who have no interest in "harder training" and following bro diets and bro splits to achieve "fantastic shape"? What do you recommend for them? Still need to avoid eating whatever your definition of processed food/junk food is?
I recommend trying eating a diet full of whole foods for a month and pay attention to how it affects your cognition and energy levels. If you think eating pasta if worth it still then go for it.
Have any objective evidence supporting superiority of this practice?WinoGelato wrote: »TicoCortez wrote: »
Dom is funny and obviously satirical but most of the guys and gals I know that are in fantastic shape follow strict "bro diets" (chicken breast and broccoli) and "bro splits" (low frequency/ high volume training).
correlation =/= casuation
I agree that a lot of it is correlation. Still, me thinks that healthy food (high fiber, high protein, low sugar) = more energy = harder training and better recovery.
And for people who have no interest in "harder training" and following bro diets and bro splits to achieve "fantastic shape"? What do you recommend for them? Still need to avoid eating whatever your definition of processed food/junk food is?
I recommend trying eating a diet full of whole foods for a month and pay attention to how it affects your cognition and energy levels. If you think eating pasta if worth it still then go for it.
Have any objective evidence supporting superiority of this practice?
Try google. Keywords: inflammation, gut micro-biome, cognition, sugar/ glucose.
Surprise, surprise. Guy won't even cite his sources.
"What, you don't believe me? To the google machine with you!"
Would you really read a 20 page research paper?
Know how I know you're new here?36 -
WinoGelato wrote: »TicoCortez wrote: »
Dom is funny and obviously satirical but most of the guys and gals I know that are in fantastic shape follow strict "bro diets" (chicken breast and broccoli) and "bro splits" (low frequency/ high volume training).
correlation =/= casuation
I agree that a lot of it is correlation. Still, me thinks that healthy food (high fiber, high protein, low sugar) = more energy = harder training and better recovery.
And for people who have no interest in "harder training" and following bro diets and bro splits to achieve "fantastic shape"? What do you recommend for them? Still need to avoid eating whatever your definition of processed food/junk food is?
I recommend trying eating a diet full of whole foods for a month and pay attention to how it affects your cognition and energy levels. If you think eating pasta if worth it still then go for it.
Why is pasta a bad thing to eat? Is this that anti carb thing again?
I eat mostly whole foods, and make eating lots of vegetables and sufficient protein my priorities, but I enjoy pasta and also find it a really easy fast and healthful meal -- something like pasta (I often do whole wheat and am exploring lentil based and the like) with shrimp and lots of vegetables (whatever I have on hand), maybe some olives or pine nuts or some other nut or seed, and olive oil. Why is that bad?
I did keto for a while, so cut out pasta (I continued eating lots of vegetables, but disliked not being able to eat potatoes or beans or pasta or fruit). I did not feel better eating that way.
I also think the idea that pasta is more processed then some of the things you apparently think are great (like butter) is weird. You can grind the grains at home if you really want. And once you have flour, making pasta is easy. Not work I usually bother with, but easy.6 -
WinoGelato wrote: »TicoCortez wrote: »
Dom is funny and obviously satirical but most of the guys and gals I know that are in fantastic shape follow strict "bro diets" (chicken breast and broccoli) and "bro splits" (low frequency/ high volume training).
correlation =/= casuation
I agree that a lot of it is correlation. Still, me thinks that healthy food (high fiber, high protein, low sugar) = more energy = harder training and better recovery.
And for people who have no interest in "harder training" and following bro diets and bro splits to achieve "fantastic shape"? What do you recommend for them? Still need to avoid eating whatever your definition of processed food/junk food is?
I recommend trying eating a diet full of whole foods for a month and pay attention to how it affects your cognition and energy levels. If you think eating pasta if worth it still then go for it.
Have any objective evidence supporting superiority of this practice?WinoGelato wrote: »TicoCortez wrote: »
Dom is funny and obviously satirical but most of the guys and gals I know that are in fantastic shape follow strict "bro diets" (chicken breast and broccoli) and "bro splits" (low frequency/ high volume training).
correlation =/= casuation
I agree that a lot of it is correlation. Still, me thinks that healthy food (high fiber, high protein, low sugar) = more energy = harder training and better recovery.
And for people who have no interest in "harder training" and following bro diets and bro splits to achieve "fantastic shape"? What do you recommend for them? Still need to avoid eating whatever your definition of processed food/junk food is?
I recommend trying eating a diet full of whole foods for a month and pay attention to how it affects your cognition and energy levels. If you think eating pasta if worth it still then go for it.
Have any objective evidence supporting superiority of this practice?
Try google. Keywords: inflammation, gut micro-biome, cognition, sugar/ glucose.
Surprise, surprise. Guy won't even cite his sources.
"What, you don't believe me? To the google machine with you!"
The fact that I agree 95% with CICO and am getting attacked for the 5% shows that this forum is more dogmatic than flat-earthers.27
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