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Why do people deny CICO ?
Replies
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GaleHawkins wrote: »dangerousdashie wrote: »CICO is confusing. Calories in Calories out- Except for if you eat too little and go into starvation mode you won’t lose weight or you may even gain weight. It confuses me and I’m sure it confuses others too.
@dangerousdashie CICO is confusing only if it is applied to humans which was never the intent of the concept.
For humans at best CICO is a guessing game devoid of real science. It does not explain why people are driven to over/under eat and other causes of human disease and premature deaths.
No one posting here can even produce their own verifiable lab results proving they even know their own CICO so as human health/weight goes CICO is more mystical than anything else since counting calories is no long term protection against obesity.
When I found macros (ratio of carbs, protein and fats) that worked for me then the binging stopped being an eating problem and over time I lost 50 pounds with no weight loss goal. I have maintained that loss for three years with no counting/measuring but just eating the ratio of carbs, protein and fats that work best to recover my health. Now at 67 my health is better than 30 years ago.
What macros (ratio of carbs, protein and fats) that you need to eat can ONLY be determined by your own personal experimenting with different rations. NO one here can tell you how to eat because they do not know you and your health facts.
As a side note I do post under my real name with real profile info on MFP as well as various other non health forums as Google will show you. Currently I am binging on buying and rehabbing Ford tractors from mid 60's and up. This form of binging has not changed my weight either but keeps me moving.
Best of success.
Gosh, I'm glad that macro ratios worked for you. I tried that after I read 'The Zone' decades ago ... but it was difficult to track in the age before personal computers. Now, with MFP being so handy at giving me that information I have been tracking my macro ratios as well as my caloric intake ... and guess what I found out ... my macro's tend to stay the same within a very small 1-2% variable regardless how of how high or low my calories go ... and that's because I eat, basically, the same 70 or so foods on a recurring basis. However, one day I might eat 1500 calories and on another day it might be 2000 or even more ... but the macros stay basically the same.
So for me, macro ratio's, based on the foods I choose to ingest, does not lead to weight loss. However, keeping my calories at a deficit does.19 -
WinoGelato wrote: »So just so we are clear, with every post we are supposed to add the following disclaimers:
Calories are what matter for weight loss! (annotated reference to detailed discussions about nutrition and overall health).
CICO is simple, eat less than you burn and you'll lose weight! (detailed discussion of every possible way of eating and dietary preference that may be chosen, along with detailed discussion of every possible rare metabolic disorder that may be a factor even though the OP didn't disclose any medical issues in his/her post)
CICO is an energy balance, it is what influences all weight loss, gain, and maintenance! (with the caveat that no one can know precisely what their own calorie burn is to the decimal since we are not bomb calorimeters and there are a host of external variables that don't matter in the big picture but nevertheless need to be mentioned to appease some posters).
Gotcha.
Whelp. So I guess in other words, unless you have advanced degrees in physiology, molecular biology and psychology/behavioral sciences, and are willing to write a detailed dissertation in each and every post, don't even bother responding.
That oughta cut down the amount of discussion in the forums.
I say, let’s get rid of the forums all together. Nor better yet, enact term limit on posters, like anyone with post count higher than 100 should be blocked. Peace8 -
No again
"Calories are what matter for weight loss but for overall health you should look at the quality of the foods that you are eating.
CICO is simple, eat less than you burn and you'll lose weight! How you achieve this is up to you and different for everyone. Take some time to trial and error what works for you. For some, it is everything in moderation. For others, they may need to avoid foods that derail them from their goal. You have to find what works for you.
CICO is an energy balance, it is what influences all weight loss, gain, and maintenance! (you can go on bout this as much as you want)"
It's not that hard. The thing is that no one has the definitely answer that will work for everyone so telling someone to eat whatever they want is not usually helpful.17 -
No again
"Calories are what matter for weight loss but for overall health you should look at the quality of the foods that you are eating.
CICO is simple, eat less than you burn and you'll lose weight! How you achieve this is up to you and different for everyone. Take some time to trial and error what works for you. For some, it is everything in moderation. For others, they may need to avoid foods that derail them from their goal. You have to find what works for you.
CICO is an energy balance, it is what influences all weight loss, gain, and maintenance! (you can go on bout this as much as you want)"
It's not that hard. The thing is that no one has the definitely answer that will work for everyone so telling someone to eat whatever they want is not usually helpful.
Here’s the thing, no one says eat food without regard to nutrition.14 -
No again
"Calories are what matter for weight loss but for overall health you should look at the quality of the foods that you are eating.
CICO is simple, eat less than you burn and you'll lose weight! How you achieve this is up to you and different for everyone. Take some time to trial and error what works for you. For some, it is everything in moderation. For others, they may need to avoid foods that derail them from their goal. You have to find what works for you.
CICO is an energy balance, it is what influences all weight loss, gain, and maintenance! (you can go on bout this as much as you want)"
It's not that hard. The thing is that no one has the definitely answer that will work for everyone so telling someone to eat whatever they want is not usually helpful.
And as @WinoGelato asked earlier, it would be great if you could provide a list of links to all of these posts where after getting several replies, all the OP is told is - eat whatever you want, it's all calories, with no nuance. It should be easy, since you're saying that's what always happens. Please and thank you.17 -
No again
"Calories are what matter for weight loss but for overall health you should look at the quality of the foods that you are eating.
CICO is simple, eat less than you burn and you'll lose weight! How you achieve this is up to you and different for everyone. Take some time to trial and error what works for you. For some, it is everything in moderation. For others, they may need to avoid foods that derail them from their goal. You have to find what works for you.
CICO is an energy balance, it is what influences all weight loss, gain, and maintenance! (you can go on bout this as much as you want)"
It's not that hard. The thing is that no one has the definitely answer that will work for everyone so telling someone to eat whatever they want is not usually helpful.
OK--so don't eat whatever you want. That's fine too. I find your view of the forums distorted, and so I disagree with you. There are people that give unselfishly of their time to help newcomers. I've noticed through the years that the critics hardly ever give of their time to help out the newbies. I will be looking forward to reading your advice in the future. Good luck with your goals.20 -
So after 32 pages, I think the clear answer to the question posed in the title is:
Because they don't know what it is.
20 -
No again
"Calories are what matter for weight loss but for overall health you should look at the quality of the foods that you are eating.
CICO is simple, eat less than you burn and you'll lose weight! How you achieve this is up to you and different for everyone. Take some time to trial and error what works for you. For some, it is everything in moderation. For others, they may need to avoid foods that derail them from their goal. You have to find what works for you.
CICO is an energy balance, it is what influences all weight loss, gain, and maintenance! (you can go on bout this as much as you want)"
It's not that hard. The thing is that no one has the definitely answer that will work for everyone so telling someone to eat whatever they want is not usually helpful.
Pics or it didn't happen. This is internet rule #1. Know it. Live it.12 -
No again
"Calories are what matter for weight loss...
...CICO is simple, eat less than you burn and you'll lose weight! How you achieve this is up to you and different for everyone. Take some time to trial and error what works for you. For some, it is everything in moderation. For others, they may need to avoid foods that derail them from their goal. You have to find what works for you...
...CICO is an energy balance, it is what influences all weight loss, gain, and maintenance! (you can go on bout this as much as you want)"...
Well, at least we've gotten that far.
But it sounds suspiciously identical to the advice most of us actually give to people in the forums, so I don't see what the beef is.16 -
Well, I guess it IS Friday, so sure. Everyone jump in and say how annoying the advice volunteers in the forum give to complete strangers is. We should just offer every OP a list of 30 questions they must answer so we can get a good history of their health, their personal relationship with food, and the affects their individual environment has on their diet. Then we should take a few minutes to research all the theoretical possibilities of what could go wrong, and then respond with a 5 paragraph work up where we offer nutrition, medical, and psychological advice. Finally we should provide our cell phone numbers so if they need moral support we can stop what we're doing and talk them through it. Because otherwise it's just REALLY unfair to expect an OP to think critically about the quick advice several internet strangers have offered for free and find creative ways to apply it to their own lives.
Guess what? We get a little tired too of hearing about how our attempts to help aren't good enough. I *kitten* give up. Let me get an endocrinology degree, become a registered dietician, and bone up on my psychology and then maybe I will be able to give useful advice to someone who doesn't know how to log food or use a kitchen scale.
I used to have a list of, I think, 5 or so questions that I asked in every plateau thread (this was years ago, before I'd developed copy/paste answers). It turns out that fewer than 50% of people asking why they haven't lost weight will come back to answer any questions. If you can get someone to come back and give you complete answers to all 30 questions - without skipping questions, answering the first one and ignoring the rest, or answering questions you didn't ask - I will give you a goddamn medal.*
*Medal may be delivered digital and may or may not actually exist.20 -
For me, I get tired of hearing "its CICO, eat whatever you want as long as you stay under calories MFP says you will lose weight"
I am not tired of hearing it because it is necessarily wrong. I get that CICO works. But people tend to simplify CICO too much. There are a lot of things that affect the CO portion of the equation. Individual metabolism, body composition just to name a few of the many.
More importantly, there is a lot more that goes into the CI portion. Just consume less calories is not that easy for some and for those who think its easy, they just assume everyone else is just too lazy to try. There are mental blocks, terrible relationships with food, habits, brain chemistry that goes into it. While some people can just eat one slice of pizza, that would be horrible advice for others as eating just 1 piece is a lot harder. CICO does not account for ones relationship to food. There are certain foods that I just cannot eat because it is a trigger for my eating disorder and will derail all my progress. I have to recognize that. But if I were to have a thread on here about how I am going to cut out pizza, I would get a bunch of responses from people telling me they cant imagine life without pizza and as long as it fits in your calories, eat the pizza. How is that helpful for me?
Again, CICO at its basics works but it is way over simplified for the execution of people with eating disorders, emotional eating, and other bad relationships with food.
I also feel like the MFP community bashes people's diets too much. Yes low carb, paleo, Atkins, OMAD diets are all ways for you to achieve CICO so who cares what path people choose? If carbs trigger over eating for someone so they go low carb to lose weight....who cares?? You dont need to throw CICO at them saying that they dont need to do low carb. I have recently changed to an IF eating pattern. Not necessary because I wanted to follow that diet but because I recognized that I was not actually hungry in the morning so eating when I was not hungry was not a habit I wants to pick up again. On the opposite end, I was always hungry at 3pm and I had no calories left over. So now my breakfast calories can be reused for 3pm. But again, looking at threads on IF, you get the MFP veterans constantly knocking it because all you need is CICO.
Managing your weight is like juggling. Each ball is distinct from the other and for some people, they might keep their eye on one ball more than an other. One ball is calories (this is a crucial ball, one must always keep an eye on it), another is food choice, another is satiety, another is habits, another is mental factors, etc. All of these balls are constantly in play. Some people have more balls to juggle than others. Sometimes, you can drop one of the balls and just keep juggling, but the one ball you can't drop and can never take your eye off is the calorie ball.
I think you misunderstand what CICO is. CICO is simply the calorie ball.16 -
L1zardQueen wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »So just so we are clear, with every post we are supposed to add the following disclaimers:
Calories are what matter for weight loss! (annotated reference to detailed discussions about nutrition and overall health).
CICO is simple, eat less than you burn and you'll lose weight! (detailed discussion of every possible way of eating and dietary preference that may be chosen, along with detailed discussion of every possible rare metabolic disorder that may be a factor even though the OP didn't disclose any medical issues in his/her post)
CICO is an energy balance, it is what influences all weight loss, gain, and maintenance! (with the caveat that no one can know precisely what their own calorie burn is to the decimal since we are not bomb calorimeters and there are a host of external variables that don't matter in the big picture but nevertheless need to be mentioned to appease some posters).
Gotcha.
Whelp. So I guess in other words, unless you have advanced degrees in physiology, molecular biology and psychology/behavioral sciences, and are willing to write a detailed dissertation in each and every post, don't even bother responding.
That oughta cut down the amount of discussion in the forums.
I say, let’s get rid of the forums all together. Nor better yet, enact term limit on posters, like anyone with post count higher than 100 should be blocked. Peace
I like that. It would significantly improve my life balance and probably happiness besides.
*Baby-feline* me for sticking around after weight loss, to try to help new folks the way others helped me.
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diannethegeek wrote: »Well, I guess it IS Friday, so sure. Everyone jump in and say how annoying the advice volunteers in the forum give to complete strangers is. We should just offer every OP a list of 30 questions they must answer so we can get a good history of their health, their personal relationship with food, and the affects their individual environment has on their diet. Then we should take a few minutes to research all the theoretical possibilities of what could go wrong, and then respond with a 5 paragraph work up where we offer nutrition, medical, and psychological advice. Finally we should provide our cell phone numbers so if they need moral support we can stop what we're doing and talk them through it. Because otherwise it's just REALLY unfair to expect an OP to think critically about the quick advice several internet strangers have offered for free and find creative ways to apply it to their own lives.
Guess what? We get a little tired too of hearing about how our attempts to help aren't good enough. I *kitten* give up. Let me get an endocrinology degree, become a registered dietician, and bone up on my psychology and then maybe I will be able to give useful advice to someone who doesn't know how to log food or use a kitchen scale.
I used to have a list of, I think, 5 or so questions that I asked in every plateau thread (this was years ago, before I'd developed copy/paste answers). It turns out that fewer than 50% of people asking why they haven't lost weight will come back to answer any questions. If you can get someone to come back and give you complete answers to all 30 questions - without skipping questions, answering the first one and ignoring the rest, or answering questions you didn't ask - I will give you a goddamn medal.*
*Medal may be delivered digital and may or may not actually exist.
Yeah, I would say one of the trickiest parts of trying to help is getting people to answer relevant questions.
You're often starting with a post that either has virtually no information or has all the information but the information you need to help them.
You've got to consider asking in a way that doesn't overwhelm, how to repeat an unanswered (but vital) question in a way that isn't off-putting, how to figure out partial answers, how to bridge potential language/word usage differences, etc. (Not to say that I always succeed, people are different and the tone that I consider to be friendly or pleasant may come across differently than I intended).
Meanwhile you've got people coming into the thread asking if they've tried keto yet, have they asked their doctor about metabolic damage, did they eliminate flour or soda or alcohol yet, have they tried exercise but only every other Tuesday so that their body stays confused, so on and so on.11 -
I think there may be a disconnect between what newer posters think of as "regular posters" and what we oldbies think of as "regular posters." There are certainly posters out there who will post simple answers to complex questions, but to me most of them are newer people. "Chug a gallon of water, try keto, intermittent fasting or bust, no more sugar, you must eat breakfast, up your cardio, try my product," etc etc. Plateau threads (my haunt of choice on these boards and I think vaguely the topic we've rolled into now?) are a veritable wasteland of noise. And yes, one-line answers like "If you aren't losing weight then you aren't in a calorie deficit" can add to that. But sometimes people are posting quickly, on the run or on a mobile device, hoping that everyone else can chime in and flesh out the answer. Sometimes they're hoping that a quick post will help get CICO past the rest of the noise by sheer repetition.
When I plateaued for 8 weeks I scoured the internet for advice (I hadn't found MFP yet). I was told to cut out condiments, walk backwards to trick my body, and to eat more. When I found MFP and started to dig into CICO and how it worked and why it worked, I felt for the first time like I had some control over this process. That I wasn't just shouting into the darkness hoping that the plateau gods would hear my prayers and end my torment. I'm going to try and reach out to as many others as I can who are maybe in the same position, and yeah, sometimes that means a quick one-line answer when I see that others have covered the rest.18 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »For me, I get tired of hearing "its CICO, eat whatever you want as long as you stay under calories MFP says you will lose weight"
I am not tired of hearing it because it is necessarily wrong. I get that CICO works. But people tend to simplify CICO too much. There are a lot of things that affect the CO portion of the equation. Individual metabolism, body composition just to name a few of the many.
More importantly, there is a lot more that goes into the CI portion. Just consume less calories is not that easy for some and for those who think its easy, they just assume everyone else is just too lazy to try. There are mental blocks, terrible relationships with food, habits, brain chemistry that goes into it. While some people can just eat one slice of pizza, that would be horrible advice for others as eating just 1 piece is a lot harder. CICO does not account for ones relationship to food. There are certain foods that I just cannot eat because it is a trigger for my eating disorder and will derail all my progress. I have to recognize that. But if I were to have a thread on here about how I am going to cut out pizza, I would get a bunch of responses from people telling me they cant imagine life without pizza and as long as it fits in your calories, eat the pizza. How is that helpful for me?
Again, CICO at its basics works but it is way over simplified for the execution of people with eating disorders, emotional eating, and other bad relationships with food.
I also feel like the MFP community bashes people's diets too much. Yes low carb, paleo, Atkins, OMAD diets are all ways for you to achieve CICO so who cares what path people choose? If carbs trigger over eating for someone so they go low carb to lose weight....who cares?? You dont need to throw CICO at them saying that they dont need to do low carb. I have recently changed to an IF eating pattern. Not necessary because I wanted to follow that diet but because I recognized that I was not actually hungry in the morning so eating when I was not hungry was not a habit I wants to pick up again. On the opposite end, I was always hungry at 3pm and I had no calories left over. So now my breakfast calories can be reused for 3pm. But again, looking at threads on IF, you get the MFP veterans constantly knocking it because all you need is CICO.
CICO is an energy balance issue. It has nothing....NOTHING....whatsoever to do with behavioral issues, mental illness, eating disorders, food relationships, etc. NOTHING. Nobody who's defending the validity of CICO has ever claimed that any of those things have anything to do with CICO, nor do those things have anything to do with the CI portion of the equation.
CICO is an acronym for "Calories In, Calories Out". It simplifies the law of energy balance, which has been scientifically validated over and over and over again. If you consume less calories than you expend, you will lose weight. How one arrives at that destination can be complicated and nuanced by all the things you're discussing, but they have absolutely NOTHING to do with CICO itself. Nor do they modify, diminish or invalidate the law of energy balance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_balance
So you are now saying that the way we may develop our own energy balances 'have absolutely nothing to do with CICO itself'?
I think this issue in some recent posts are not so much about what is meaningful or not meaningful but how some are willing to verbally abuse others if they disagree.
If CICO was actually scientifically validated that proof would be posted by someone every time the subject comes up. While CICO as used by some here is a term without validated scientific meaning as often used here it is good to run up the number of posts counter.
Gonna drop this here
http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/index.html
http://www.healthcarebusinesstech.com/nutritionist-loses-27-pounds-on-twinkie-and-oreo-diet-no-really/
And then this here
https://www.myoleanfitness.com/cico-evidence-based-truth/
https://www.itscico.com/
Then I am going to explain you what I read in your comment earlier which is why I ignored you the first go round ...
You said "I figured out my body combination" ... meaning you replaced 1000 calories of carbs with 500 calories of fat or protein or any combo there of ... doesn't matter... it was still CICO ...
It is the same reason people are 100lbs over weight and still severely malnourished.
If you eat medium cheese pizza, bag of Doritos, and liter of soda over an entire day you may feel like you didn't eat much.
Breakfast: 2 slices and 1/3 bag and 1/3 soda
Lunch: 3 slices and 1/3 bag and 1/3 soda
Dinner: 3 slices and 1/3 bag and 1/3 soda
no snacks
But you just ate 3800 calories and maybe minimal satiety plus apparently there is chemicals in these food which encourage hunger so you might even still feel hungry.
Then you replace those with ...
Breakfast: 2 cups of fruit, 5 egg omlet, and a waffled with 1/4 cup wip cream
Lunch: two BLT and avocado sandwiches with 3 cups of salad even with 1/4 cup ranch
Dinner: an 8 ounce steak with 3 cups of salad even with 1/4 cup ranch
Suddenly you are "eating more" and losing weight so CICO must be wrong .. only no.. because all of this is only about 3300 calories
And walla... more food, more satiety, BUT 500 LESS CALORIES a day / a deficit of 3500 a week ... always CICO
12 -
Here are some recent threads where all sorts of different variables are discussed. While there are some individual posts that are a little overly simplistic or snippy, the overall affect of the thread is alot of info:
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10657522/unable-to-diet/p1
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/comment/41806858#Comment_41806858
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/comment/41799288#Comment_41799288
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10658681/always-go-beyond-1300-cal-a-day/p1
These are the kinds of threads I see all the time. If you don't look at one individual reply and instead at the whole thread, it looks to me like lots of useful info above and beyond - CICO, eat less.
12 -
I also feel like the MFP community bashes people's diets too much. Yes low carb, paleo, Atkins, OMAD diets are all ways for you to achieve CICO so who cares what path people choose?
No one. The pushback comes when someone claims their diet is superior or even the OneTrueDiet.
If you just say "I am trying keto to see if it's helpful for satiety" or some such, no one cares.
15 -
IzzyFlower2018 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »For me, I get tired of hearing "its CICO, eat whatever you want as long as you stay under calories MFP says you will lose weight"
I am not tired of hearing it because it is necessarily wrong. I get that CICO works. But people tend to simplify CICO too much. There are a lot of things that affect the CO portion of the equation. Individual metabolism, body composition just to name a few of the many.
More importantly, there is a lot more that goes into the CI portion. Just consume less calories is not that easy for some and for those who think its easy, they just assume everyone else is just too lazy to try. There are mental blocks, terrible relationships with food, habits, brain chemistry that goes into it. While some people can just eat one slice of pizza, that would be horrible advice for others as eating just 1 piece is a lot harder. CICO does not account for ones relationship to food. There are certain foods that I just cannot eat because it is a trigger for my eating disorder and will derail all my progress. I have to recognize that. But if I were to have a thread on here about how I am going to cut out pizza, I would get a bunch of responses from people telling me they cant imagine life without pizza and as long as it fits in your calories, eat the pizza. How is that helpful for me?
Again, CICO at its basics works but it is way over simplified for the execution of people with eating disorders, emotional eating, and other bad relationships with food.
I also feel like the MFP community bashes people's diets too much. Yes low carb, paleo, Atkins, OMAD diets are all ways for you to achieve CICO so who cares what path people choose? If carbs trigger over eating for someone so they go low carb to lose weight....who cares?? You dont need to throw CICO at them saying that they dont need to do low carb. I have recently changed to an IF eating pattern. Not necessary because I wanted to follow that diet but because I recognized that I was not actually hungry in the morning so eating when I was not hungry was not a habit I wants to pick up again. On the opposite end, I was always hungry at 3pm and I had no calories left over. So now my breakfast calories can be reused for 3pm. But again, looking at threads on IF, you get the MFP veterans constantly knocking it because all you need is CICO.
CICO is an energy balance issue. It has nothing....NOTHING....whatsoever to do with behavioral issues, mental illness, eating disorders, food relationships, etc. NOTHING. Nobody who's defending the validity of CICO has ever claimed that any of those things have anything to do with CICO, nor do those things have anything to do with the CI portion of the equation.
CICO is an acronym for "Calories In, Calories Out". It simplifies the law of energy balance, which has been scientifically validated over and over and over again. If you consume less calories than you expend, you will lose weight. How one arrives at that destination can be complicated and nuanced by all the things you're discussing, but they have absolutely NOTHING to do with CICO itself. Nor do they modify, diminish or invalidate the law of energy balance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_balance
So you are now saying that the way we may develop our own energy balances 'have absolutely nothing to do with CICO itself'?
I think this issue in some recent posts are not so much about what is meaningful or not meaningful but how some are willing to verbally abuse others if they disagree.
If CICO was actually scientifically validated that proof would be posted by someone every time the subject comes up. While CICO as used by some here is a term without validated scientific meaning as often used here it is good to run up the number of posts counter.
Gonna drop this here
http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/index.html
http://www.healthcarebusinesstech.com/nutritionist-loses-27-pounds-on-twinkie-and-oreo-diet-no-really/
And then this here
https://www.myoleanfitness.com/cico-evidence-based-truth/
https://www.itscico.com/
Then I am going to explain you what I read in your comment earlier which is why I ignored you the first go round ...
You said "I figured out my body combination" ... meaning you replaced 1000 calories of carbs with 500 calories of fat or protein or any combo there of ... doesn't matter... it was still CICO ...
It is the same reason people are 100lbs over weight and still severely malnourished.
If you eat medium cheese pizza, bag of Doritos, and liter of soda over an entire day you may feel like you didn't eat much.
Breakfast: 2 slices and 1/3 bag and 1/3 soda
Lunch: 3 slices and 1/3 bag and 1/3 soda
Dinner: 3 slices and 1/3 bag and 1/3 soda
no snacks
But you just ate 3800 calories and maybe minimal satiety plus apparently there is chemicals in these food which encourage hunger so you might even still feel hungry.
Then you replace those with ...
Breakfast: 2 cups of fruit, 5 egg omlet, and a waffled with 1/4 cup wip cream
Lunch: two BLT and avocado sandwiches with 3 cups of salad even with 1/4 cup ranch
Dinner: an 8 ounce steak with 3 cups of salad even with 1/4 cup ranch
Suddenly you are "eating more" and losing weight so CICO must be wrong .. only no.. because all of this is only about 3300 calories
And walla... more food, more satiety, BUT 500 LESS CALORIES a day / a deficit of 3500 a week ... always CICO
Hey Sis,I see you are new here! Welcome to the community! Wrong tree:)13 -
L1zardQueen wrote: »IzzyFlower2018 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »For me, I get tired of hearing "its CICO, eat whatever you want as long as you stay under calories MFP says you will lose weight"
I am not tired of hearing it because it is necessarily wrong. I get that CICO works. But people tend to simplify CICO too much. There are a lot of things that affect the CO portion of the equation. Individual metabolism, body composition just to name a few of the many.
More importantly, there is a lot more that goes into the CI portion. Just consume less calories is not that easy for some and for those who think its easy, they just assume everyone else is just too lazy to try. There are mental blocks, terrible relationships with food, habits, brain chemistry that goes into it. While some people can just eat one slice of pizza, that would be horrible advice for others as eating just 1 piece is a lot harder. CICO does not account for ones relationship to food. There are certain foods that I just cannot eat because it is a trigger for my eating disorder and will derail all my progress. I have to recognize that. But if I were to have a thread on here about how I am going to cut out pizza, I would get a bunch of responses from people telling me they cant imagine life without pizza and as long as it fits in your calories, eat the pizza. How is that helpful for me?
Again, CICO at its basics works but it is way over simplified for the execution of people with eating disorders, emotional eating, and other bad relationships with food.
I also feel like the MFP community bashes people's diets too much. Yes low carb, paleo, Atkins, OMAD diets are all ways for you to achieve CICO so who cares what path people choose? If carbs trigger over eating for someone so they go low carb to lose weight....who cares?? You dont need to throw CICO at them saying that they dont need to do low carb. I have recently changed to an IF eating pattern. Not necessary because I wanted to follow that diet but because I recognized that I was not actually hungry in the morning so eating when I was not hungry was not a habit I wants to pick up again. On the opposite end, I was always hungry at 3pm and I had no calories left over. So now my breakfast calories can be reused for 3pm. But again, looking at threads on IF, you get the MFP veterans constantly knocking it because all you need is CICO.
CICO is an energy balance issue. It has nothing....NOTHING....whatsoever to do with behavioral issues, mental illness, eating disorders, food relationships, etc. NOTHING. Nobody who's defending the validity of CICO has ever claimed that any of those things have anything to do with CICO, nor do those things have anything to do with the CI portion of the equation.
CICO is an acronym for "Calories In, Calories Out". It simplifies the law of energy balance, which has been scientifically validated over and over and over again. If you consume less calories than you expend, you will lose weight. How one arrives at that destination can be complicated and nuanced by all the things you're discussing, but they have absolutely NOTHING to do with CICO itself. Nor do they modify, diminish or invalidate the law of energy balance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_balance
So you are now saying that the way we may develop our own energy balances 'have absolutely nothing to do with CICO itself'?
I think this issue in some recent posts are not so much about what is meaningful or not meaningful but how some are willing to verbally abuse others if they disagree.
If CICO was actually scientifically validated that proof would be posted by someone every time the subject comes up. While CICO as used by some here is a term without validated scientific meaning as often used here it is good to run up the number of posts counter.
Gonna drop this here
http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/index.html
http://www.healthcarebusinesstech.com/nutritionist-loses-27-pounds-on-twinkie-and-oreo-diet-no-really/
And then this here
https://www.myoleanfitness.com/cico-evidence-based-truth/
https://www.itscico.com/
Then I am going to explain you what I read in your comment earlier which is why I ignored you the first go round ...
You said "I figured out my body combination" ... meaning you replaced 1000 calories of carbs with 500 calories of fat or protein or any combo there of ... doesn't matter... it was still CICO ...
It is the same reason people are 100lbs over weight and still severely malnourished.
If you eat medium cheese pizza, bag of Doritos, and liter of soda over an entire day you may feel like you didn't eat much.
Breakfast: 2 slices and 1/3 bag and 1/3 soda
Lunch: 3 slices and 1/3 bag and 1/3 soda
Dinner: 3 slices and 1/3 bag and 1/3 soda
no snacks
But you just ate 3800 calories and maybe minimal satiety plus apparently there is chemicals in these food which encourage hunger so you might even still feel hungry.
Then you replace those with ...
Breakfast: 2 cups of fruit, 5 egg omlet, and a waffled with 1/4 cup wip cream
Lunch: two BLT and avocado sandwiches with 3 cups of salad even with 1/4 cup ranch
Dinner: an 8 ounce steak with 3 cups of salad even with 1/4 cup ranch
Suddenly you are "eating more" and losing weight so CICO must be wrong .. only no.. because all of this is only about 3300 calories
And walla... more food, more satiety, BUT 500 LESS CALORIES a day / a deficit of 3500 a week ... always CICO
Hey Sis,I see you are new here! Welcome to the community! Wrong tree:)
I was trying to think of a tactful way to say that.
Sometimes availing oneself of the options freely available through the forum software (e.g., say, the "Ignore User" function, just as a random example) is a highly useful strategy rather than taking the time to type a response to somebody who is hypothetically utterly convinced of their point of view and has hypothetically consistently demonstrated, over a period of years, that no amount of reason or actual scientific evidence will change it. Hypothetically speaking, of course.
Off topic, but just a helpful tip for a new user, offered in the hopes that it will be accepted in the spirit it was given. 16 -
This is exactly why I try to stay off the forums. You all claim to be so supportive. I never indicated a misunderstanding on CICO nor did I say it doesn't work. I started by saying it was the way to lose weight however the execution was not that simple and get jumped on for not understanding CICO or I must be new. I have been on MFP for 7 years on and off. I have lost an extreme amount of weight but since I don't have 14k posts, my 170lb weight loss must not indicate any knowledge if weight loss or the struggles.
I am on many ither forums that I highly participate in because they are far more positive and supportive. MFP is the best for calorie counting but the worst for advice and support.22 -
This is exactly why I try to stay off the forums. You all claim to be so supportive. I never indicated a misunderstanding on CICO nor did I say it doesn't work. I started by saying it was the way to lose weight however the execution was not that simple and get jumped on for not understanding CICO or I must be new. I have been on MFP for 7 years on and off. I have lost an extreme amount of weight but since I don't have 14k posts, my 170lb weight loss must not indicate any knowledge if weight loss or the struggles.
I am on many ither forums that I highly participate in because they are far more positive and supportive. MFP is the best for calorie counting but the worst for advice and support.
The *Debate forum* isn't a great place for support and you'll find that many of us do have a different tone here than we demonstrate in other areas of the boards. If someone is looking for support and validation, this wouldn't be an area that I would recommend. But everyone I see debating with the posts you've made here, I've seen be supportive and generous with their time and knowledge in other areas.
Context is key, I think. If you don't want your claims debated, I wouldn't post here.23 -
This is exactly why I try to stay off the forums. You all claim to be so supportive. I never indicated a misunderstanding on CICO nor did I say it doesn't work. I started by saying it was the way to lose weight however the execution was not that simple and get jumped on for not understanding CICO or I must be new. I have been on MFP for 7 years on and off. I have lost an extreme amount of weight but since I don't have 14k posts, my 170lb weight loss must not indicate any knowledge if weight loss or the struggles.
I am on many ither forums that I highly participate in because they are far more positive and supportive. MFP is the best for calorie counting but the worst for advice and support.
You specifically came into the debate section of the forums and posted in a thread in which debating is encouraged... And because people don't fall into lockstep with your ideas, suddenly everyone is unsupportive. ... What?20 -
This is exactly why I try to stay off the forums. You all claim to be so supportive. I never indicated a misunderstanding on CICO nor did I say it doesn't work. I started by saying it was the way to lose weight however the execution was not that simple and get jumped on for not understanding CICO or I must be new. I have been on MFP for 7 years on and off. I have lost an extreme amount of weight but since I don't have 14k posts, my 170lb weight loss must not indicate any knowledge if weight loss or the struggles.
I am on many ither forums that I highly participate in because they are far more positive and supportive. MFP is the best for calorie counting but the worst for advice and support.
No, you actually started by saying "For me, I get tired of hearing "its CICO, eat whatever you want as long as you stay under calories MFP says you will lose weight" and then proceeded to bash the advice that is supposedly typical here. On p.30. Of a Debate thread.
Your low post count certainly doesn't indicate a lack of knowledge. It indicates a lack of experience with the help newbies typically end up needing.
And you still haven't linked to all of those threads full of unsupportive, overly simplistic replies. I tried starting the ball rolling with my own list!19 -
No again
"Calories are what matter for weight loss but for overall health you should look at the quality of the foods that you are eating.
CICO is simple, eat less than you burn and you'll lose weight! How you achieve this is up to you and different for everyone. Take some time to trial and error what works for you. For some, it is everything in moderation. For others, they may need to avoid foods that derail them from their goal. You have to find what works for you.
CICO is an energy balance, it is what influences all weight loss, gain, and maintenance! (you can go on bout this as much as you want)"
It's not that hard. The thing is that no one has the definitely answer that will work for everyone so telling someone to eat whatever they want is not usually helpful.
How about this: what matters for weight loss is calories, but you may find that what you eat (or when you eat or how often) makes a difference in whether you can stick to a deficit, so of course take satiety and how you feel into consideration, and of course everyone should eat a healthful diet for nutrition/health.
Because I'm pretty sure that's what I always say, or similar, when the topic comes up.
What's NOT helpful is for me to tell someone to cut out bread and snacking because that worked for me or my aunt Susie or whoever.
I also ask, if someone is having an issue, whether they are struggling with how to lose weight (worrying that they must follow a specific diet or eat 6 times a day or keep carbs under 50 g for it to work) or whether they are simply having trouble sticking to a deficit (or understanding how to set up a deficit).
If someone says they have trouble sticking to a deficit, then I think we can help them troubleshoot, but the reasons are going to be varied depending on the person and only that person can figure out how exactly to cut calories. We need to know the specifics.
Also, I really don't see what this has to do with CICO. If your premise is that people say the rest of the stuff (figuring out how not to overeat, what your triggers are and how to deal with them, so on) isn't worth thinking about or ever difficult, you would be wrong.8 -
For me, I get tired of hearing "its CICO, eat whatever you want as long as you stay under calories MFP says you will lose weight"
I am not tired of hearing it because it is necessarily wrong. I get that CICO works. But people tend to simplify CICO too much. There are a lot of things that affect the CO portion of the equation. Individual metabolism, body composition just to name a few of the many.
More importantly, there is a lot more that goes into the CI portion. Just consume less calories is not that easy for some and for those who think its easy, they just assume everyone else is just too lazy to try. There are mental blocks, terrible relationships with food, habits, brain chemistry that goes into it. While some people can just eat one slice of pizza, that would be horrible advice for others as eating just 1 piece is a lot harder. CICO does not account for ones relationship to food. There are certain foods that I just cannot eat because it is a trigger for my eating disorder and will derail all my progress. I have to recognize that. But if I were to have a thread on here about how I am going to cut out pizza, I would get a bunch of responses from people telling me they cant imagine life without pizza and as long as it fits in your calories, eat the pizza. How is that helpful for me?
Again, CICO at its basics works but it is way over simplified for the execution of people with eating disorders, emotional eating, and other bad relationships with food.
I also feel like the MFP community bashes people's diets too much. Yes low carb, paleo, Atkins, OMAD diets are all ways for you to achieve CICO so who cares what path people choose? If carbs trigger over eating for someone so they go low carb to lose weight....who cares?? You dont need to throw CICO at them saying that they dont need to do low carb. I have recently changed to an IF eating pattern. Not necessary because I wanted to follow that diet but because I recognized that I was not actually hungry in the morning so eating when I was not hungry was not a habit I wants to pick up again. On the opposite end, I was always hungry at 3pm and I had no calories left over. So now my breakfast calories can be reused for 3pm. But again, looking at threads on IF, you get the MFP veterans constantly knocking it because all you need is CICO.
CICO is an energy balance issue. It has nothing....NOTHING....whatsoever to do with behavioral issues, mental illness, eating disorders, food relationships, etc. NOTHING. Nobody has ever claimed that any of those things have anything to do with CICO, nor do those things have anything to do with the CI portion of the equation.
CICO is an acronym for "Calories In, Calories Out". It simplifies the law of energy balance, which has been scientifically validated over and over and over again. If you consume less calories than you expend, you will lose weight. How one arrives at that destination can be complicated and nuanced by all the things you're discussing, but they have absolutely NOTHING to do with CICO itself. Nor do they modify, diminish or invalidate the law of energy balance.
I understand that CICO is an energy balance. I am not claiming otherwise. I am saying the ability for a person to execute eating less calories is compromised by other outside factors.
That's a completely different discussion and not relevant in any way to CICO itself being valid or not.
Which is why I never discredited CICO, just said that the execution of CICO is vastly simplified for most people. Most understand that CICO is the way to lose weight, there is not much understanding or sympathy for those who struggle to execute it or choose to execute in their own way via other diet plans.
You seem to think CICO is a diet plan (thus, "other diet plans"). It's not.
But I'm not sure why you think that there is not much understanding or sympathy for those who struggle to execute CICO (to create a calorie deficit, I think is what you mean).
IMO, understanding that creating a calorie deficit is what you need to do and that there are many ways to do it and that all the confusing diet claims are just about different ways to create a calorie deficit is extremely helpful in simplifying and crystallizing what the goal is. Then you can better focus on the question for you: how do I do this, and if it's difficult for me, why?6 -
This is exactly why I try to stay off the forums. You all claim to be so supportive. I never indicated a misunderstanding on CICO nor did I say it doesn't work. I started by saying it was the way to lose weight however the execution was not that simple and get jumped on for not understanding CICO or I must be new. I have been on MFP for 7 years on and off. I have lost an extreme amount of weight but since I don't have 14k posts, my 170lb weight loss must not indicate any knowledge if weight loss or the struggles.
I am on many ither forums that I highly participate in because they are far more positive and supportive. MFP is the best for calorie counting but the worst for advice and support.
I’m afraid I’m with you there. Whether it is intentional misunderstanding, or one sided demands for evidence and one sided rejection of anecdotal support - or strawman restatements of my discussion points or my questions, or the multiple dismissive (at best) immediate response posts by the usual suspects. Or the latest - one person saying CICO isn’t calorie counting and the next person saying CICO is the calorie component to weight loss (get your story straight, gals) — I never did figure out how to communicate without the bash/ ridicule/ woo fest commencing. Just a little ‘I feel for you’ post before I disappear into the woodwork again - so no one needs to respond, I’ll be properly silent in my disagreement, disregard or even simple queries for some time after this again.
You are not alone, but probably anyone reasonable who might agree with some or all of what you have posted (like me) have long since given up.28 -
This is exactly why I try to stay off the forums. You all claim to be so supportive. I never indicated a misunderstanding on CICO nor did I say it doesn't work. I started by saying it was the way to lose weight however the execution was not that simple and get jumped on for not understanding CICO or I must be new. I have been on MFP for 7 years on and off. I have lost an extreme amount of weight but since I don't have 14k posts, my 170lb weight loss must not indicate any knowledge if weight loss or the struggles.
I am on many ither forums that I highly participate in because they are far more positive and supportive. MFP is the best for calorie counting but the worst for advice and support.
I’m afraid I’m with you there. Whether it is intentional misunderstanding, or one sided demands for evidence and one sided rejection of anecdotal support - or strawman restatements of my discussion points or my questions, or the multiple dismissive (at best) immediate response posts by the usual suspects. Or the latest - one person saying CICO isn’t calorie counting and the next person saying CICO is the calorie component to weight loss (get your story straight, gals) — I never did figure out how to communicate without the bash/ ridicule/ woo fest commencing. Just a little ‘I feel for you’ post before I disappear into the woodwork again - so no one needs to respond, I’ll be properly silent in my disagreement, disregard or even simple queries for some time after this again.
You are not alone, but probably anyone reasonable who might agree with some or all of what you have posted (like me) have long since given up.
Show me on the doll where the MFP forums touched you.
But seriously, can you link me to an example of these things happening?15 -
This is exactly why I try to stay off the forums. You all claim to be so supportive. I never indicated a misunderstanding on CICO nor did I say it doesn't work. I started by saying it was the way to lose weight however the execution was not that simple and get jumped on for not understanding CICO or I must be new. I have been on MFP for 7 years on and off. I have lost an extreme amount of weight but since I don't have 14k posts, my 170lb weight loss must not indicate any knowledge if weight loss or the struggles.
I am on many ither forums that I highly participate in because they are far more positive and supportive. MFP is the best for calorie counting but the worst for advice and support.
I’m afraid I’m with you there. Whether it is intentional misunderstanding, or one sided demands for evidence and one sided rejection of anecdotal support - or strawman restatements of my discussion points or my questions, or the multiple dismissive (at best) immediate response posts by the usual suspects. Or the latest - one person saying CICO isn’t calorie counting and the next person saying CICO is the calorie component to weight loss (get your story straight, gals) — I never did figure out how to communicate without the bash/ ridicule/ woo fest commencing. Just a little ‘I feel for you’ post before I disappear into the woodwork again - so no one needs to respond, I’ll be properly silent in my disagreement, disregard or even simple queries for some time after this again.
But this is correct, @reynday.
CICO is how your body reacts to calories. It is an internal function of your body. It does its thing, no matter what we are doing on the outside.
Calorie counting is us tracking the food we put into our bodies. It's external, and we can and do screw it up by inaccurate tracking, overestimating exercise calories, etc.
19 -
This is exactly why I try to stay off the forums. You all claim to be so supportive. I never indicated a misunderstanding on CICO nor did I say it doesn't work. I started by saying it was the way to lose weight however the execution was not that simple and get jumped on for not understanding CICO or I must be new. I have been on MFP for 7 years on and off. I have lost an extreme amount of weight but since I don't have 14k posts, my 170lb weight loss must not indicate any knowledge if weight loss or the struggles.
I am on many ither forums that I highly participate in because they are far more positive and supportive. MFP is the best for calorie counting but the worst for advice and support.
I’m afraid I’m with you there. Whether it is intentional misunderstanding, or one sided demands for evidence and one sided rejection of anecdotal support - or strawman restatements of my discussion points or my questions, or the multiple dismissive (at best) immediate response posts by the usual suspects. Or the latest - one person saying CICO isn’t calorie counting and the next person saying CICO is the calorie component to weight loss (get your story straight, gals) — I never did figure out how to communicate without the bash/ ridicule/ woo fest commencing. Just a little ‘I feel for you’ post before I disappear into the woodwork again - so no one needs to respond, I’ll be properly silent in my disagreement, disregard or even simple queries for some time after this again.
If you don't understand how CICO can be about calories but is not calorie counting, that could be a big part of the problem. I understand I am being a usual suspect with a quick response, but I think this little bit of info explains a lot.23
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