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Why do people deny CICO ?
Replies
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This is exactly why I try to stay off the forums. You all claim to be so supportive. I never indicated a misunderstanding on CICO nor did I say it doesn't work. I started by saying it was the way to lose weight however the execution was not that simple and get jumped on for not understanding CICO or I must be new. I have been on MFP for 7 years on and off. I have lost an extreme amount of weight but since I don't have 14k posts, my 170lb weight loss must not indicate any knowledge if weight loss or the struggles.
I am on many ither forums that I highly participate in because they are far more positive and supportive. MFP is the best for calorie counting but the worst for advice and support.
I’m afraid I’m with you there. Whether it is intentional misunderstanding, or one sided demands for evidence and one sided rejection of anecdotal support - or strawman restatements of my discussion points or my questions, or the multiple dismissive (at best) immediate response posts by the usual suspects. Or the latest - one person saying CICO isn’t calorie counting and the next person saying CICO is the calorie component to weight loss (get your story straight, gals) — I never did figure out how to communicate without the bash/ ridicule/ woo fest commencing. Just a little ‘I feel for you’ post before I disappear into the woodwork again - so no one needs to respond, I’ll be properly silent in my disagreement, disregard or even simple queries for some time after this again.
You are not alone, but probably anyone reasonable who might agree with some or all of what you have posted (like me) have long since given up.
This is the Debate Board. It was specifically asked for by users who wanted to have a place to debate things without derailing other threads. We specifically asked for it because calls for evidence and posted studies were considered to be derailing other threads and often very interesting links and discussions were being removed from the boards and lost. This isn't an area of the boards designed for support. This isn't an area of the boards where we sing kumbaya and hold hands. This is a 33 page thread now that's gone round in circles at least 5 times before you joined it. I don't understand why you expected your comments to be what ended the debate and sent everyone home. It's not what happens on the debate board.
Look, I get it. I don't jump into many of these debate threads because rehashing the same arguments I hashed out last year (and the year before that and the year before that) doesn't always appeal to me. It's an area that I dip my toe into now and again and then run off to sunnier parts of the forums. Similar to staying out of the chit-chat board. You can unfollow the Debate section if it's not for you and focus on helping others on those boards where that can be done.
I'd like to do a count sometime of how many flounces the Debate Board sees. It has to be a far higher percentage than any other part of the forums.17 -
I 'm gonna go a different way here. (Trigger warning: It may be unsympathetic . . . but this is the debate forum.)
I have a woman in my friend feed. She is younger than me, taller than me. When I first "met" her, she was still significantly overweight. She was eating something like 1000-1100 calories, but being moderately active.
I questioned her calorie intake; it seemed astonishingly low. She said she'd been working at weight loss for a long time, including the right consults with professionals. She had found no way to lose without eating this little, and still lost only slowly. But she'd done her research, made up her mind to cram absolutely as much top notch nutrition as she could into very limited calories, stay busy (NEAT-wise) and exercise to the extent feasible within certain injury limitations that affected her at the time.
I looked at her food diary. It was detailed, meticulous, impressive. She was getting much better nutrition on 1100 calories than most MFP-ers I've seen get on twice that budget. I saw what she did for exercise activity, saw the level headed comments she made, saw her patiently chip away at weight loss over a long time. For these and other reasons, I believed everything she logged and wrote.
As her physical issues resolved, she got a trainer and started more intensive exercise, including progressive weight training. When she finally reached goal weight, she started patiently and very slowly increasing calories in "reverse dieting" fashion, keeping the stellar nutrition.
Overall, she's lost 70+ pounds, looks great, can eat a bit more now (still pretty low for her age and size). At last report, all is well. I'm sure she wishes she could eat more, but I can't say I've ever seen much comment about that.
Because of her, I'm more likely to engage with and try to encourage people who may be in a similar spot with respect to calorie requirements (though, because of TOS, I won't advocate VLCD for anyone).
I see people here moderately often who "can't lose", feel it's unfair, appear resentful of those who (like me) can eat more, chase fads and strange metabolic theories, etc. Some are quick to take neutral questions or advice as criticism. (I'm not putting all "can't lose" folks in these categories, BTW . . . but there is an observable incidence.)
I try to be understanding and sympathetic to everyone, though it's really not a native part of my nature. I try really hard, I swear. I know I don't always succeed. And I'll admit to being judgemental on the inside, sometimes, even as I try to keep it out of my posts.
Attitude and outlook are relevant to weight loss success, along with the much-maligned CICO. Relevant to life balance, satisfaction, happiness, too.
One can spend energy wanting to change one's circumstances, or one can spend energy changing one's behavior. One of these has better odds of success.17 -
New to MFP...started reading this earlier and my first thought was "wow, this escalated quickly" I only just found out that this is on a debate forum (didn't even know there was a debate forum)
I have no information to add to any of this, but thought I'd interject to say that having a debate forum is a great way for a newbie to get answers to questions from all perspectives.
MFP is now my fave app on my phone.
21 -
kendramnolan wrote: »New to MFP...started reading this earlier and my first thought was "wow, this escalated quickly" I only just found out that this is on a debate forum (didn't even know there was a debate forum)
I have no information to add to any of this, but thought I'd interject to say that having a debate forum is a great way for a newbie to get answers to questions from all perspectives.
MFP is now my fave app on my phone.
Welcome
And yes, it's always good to check which forum a thread is in before drawing conclusions or replying. Can't tell you how many times I've almost posted in Chit Chat 
10 -
No again
"Calories are what matter for weight loss but for overall health you should look at the quality of the foods that you are eating.
CICO is simple, eat less than you burn and you'll lose weight! How you achieve this is up to you and different for everyone. Take some time to trial and error what works for you. For some, it is everything in moderation. For others, they may need to avoid foods that derail them from their goal. You have to find what works for you.
CICO is an energy balance, it is what influences all weight loss, gain, and maintenance! (you can go on bout this as much as you want)"
It's not that hard. The thing is that no one has the definitely answer that will work for everyone so telling someone to eat whatever they want is not usually helpful.
Funny thing is, these shining examples of how you think we should be responding is almost exactly the way that I, and many other of the veterans here that you are arguing with, do answer questions about CICO, and if a Calorie is just a Calorie, and if it's ok to eat a cookie if you eat clean, and why I can't lose weight when I'm doing everything right.
Because that's almost exactly how so many of us respond to these type of questions time and again, your comments that the community at large is so unhelpful and dismissive and curt and minimalist are especially offensive. But again, I'd love to see some of those examples of the overly simplistic and dismissive advice that you feel is so prevalent on these boards.16 -
I 'm gonna go a different way here. (Trigger warning: It may be unsympathetic . . . but this is the debate forum.)
I have a woman in my friend feed. She is younger than me, taller than me. When I first "met" her, she was still significantly overweight. She was eating something like 1000-1100 calories, but being moderately active.
I questioned her calorie intake; it seemed astonishingly low. She said she'd been working at weight loss for a long time, including the right consults with professionals. She had found no way to lose without eating this little, and still lost only slowly. But she'd done her research, made up her mind to cram absolutely as much top notch nutrition as she could into very limited calories, stay busy (NEAT-wise) and exercise to the extent feasible within certain injury limitations that affected her at the time.
I looked at her food diary. It was detailed, meticulous, impressive. She was getting much better nutrition on 1100 calories than most MFP-ers I've seen get on twice that budget. I saw what she did for exercise activity, saw the level headed comments she made, saw her patiently chip away at weight loss over a long time. For these and other reasons, I believed everything she logged and wrote.
As her physical issues resolved, she got a trainer and started more intensive exercise, including progressive weight training. When she finally reached goal weight, she started patiently and very slowly increasing calories in "reverse dieting" fashion, keeping the stellar nutrition.
Overall, she's lost 70+ pounds, looks great, can eat a bit more now (still pretty low for her age and size). At last report, all is well. I'm sure she wishes she could eat more, but I can't say I've ever seen much comment about that.
Because of her, I'm more likely to engage with and try to encourage people who may be in a similar spot with respect to calorie requirements (though, because of TOS, I won't advocate VLCD for anyone).
I see people here moderately often who "can't lose", feel it's unfair, appear resentful of those who (like me) can eat more, chase fads and strange metabolic theories, etc. Some are quick to take neutral questions or advice as criticism. (I'm not putting all "can't lose" folks in these categories, BTW . . . but there is an observable incidence.)
I try to be understanding and sympathetic to everyone, though it's really not a native part of my nature. I try really hard, I swear. I know I don't always succeed. And I'll admit to being judgemental on the inside, sometimes, even as I try to keep it out of my posts.
Attitude and outlook are relevant to weight loss success, along with the much-maligned CICO. Relevant to life balance, satisfaction, happiness, too.
One can spend energy wanting to change one's circumstances, or one can spend energy changing one's behavior. One of these has better odds of success.
@AnnPT77 you were one of the posters I was thinking of when I posted about the others who inspired me to start giving back here (along w/ @janejellyroll @diannethegeek @WinoGelato and others I apologize for not listing). I could type pages of links to posts from just these 4 MFP veterans that are long, detailed, sympathetic, open-minded and done entirely for free and on their own time.
And this is a great example of an outlier who was still able to use CICO and calorie counting to reach her goals, for those who want the Cliff Notes
. Simple, but not always easy. 16 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »dangerousdashie wrote: »CICO is confusing. Calories in Calories out- Except for if you eat too little and go into starvation mode you won’t lose weight or you may even gain weight. It confuses me and I’m sure it confuses others too.
@dangerousdashie CICO is confusing only if it is applied to humans which was never the intent of the concept.
For humans at best CICO is a guessing game devoid of real science. It does not explain why people are driven to over/under eat and other causes of human disease and premature deaths.
No one posting here can even produce their own verifiable lab results proving they even know their own CICO so as human health/weight goes CICO is more mystical than anything else since counting calories is no long term protection against obesity.
When I found macros (ratio of carbs, protein and fats) that worked for me then the binging stopped being an eating problem and over time I lost 50 pounds with no weight loss goal. I have maintained that loss for three years with no counting/measuring but just eating the ratio of carbs, protein and fats that work best to recover my health. Now at 67 my health is better than 30 years ago.
What macros (ratio of carbs, protein and fats) that you need to eat can ONLY be determined by your own personal experimenting with different rations. NO one here can tell you how to eat because they do not know you and your health facts.
As a side note I do post under my real name with real profile info on MFP as well as various other non health forums as Google will show you. Currently I am binging on buying and rehabbing Ford tractors from mid 60's and up. This form of binging has not changed my weight either but keeps me moving.
Best of success.
If CICO wasn't meant to describe how weight loss/gain works for humans and other animals, what was the intention?
https://google.com/search?q=cico&oq=CICO&aqs=chrome.0.0l2j35i39j0l3.6711j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
This is what I got when I Googled the term CICO.
What do you think this demonstrates?
Also, are you aware that different people googling the same thing will get different results?
It clearly demonstrates CICO has no universal meaning hence its myth like quality.
While CICO is what it is it still is without functional value to better health because it remains undefined.
It leads some to think a Calorie Is A Calorie which is not factual when we are talking about humans. You may find the below helpful in clearing up misconceptions on this subject.
blog.myfitnesspal.com/essential-guide-metabolism/31 -
WinoGelato wrote: »No again
"Calories are what matter for weight loss but for overall health you should look at the quality of the foods that you are eating.
CICO is simple, eat less than you burn and you'll lose weight! How you achieve this is up to you and different for everyone. Take some time to trial and error what works for you. For some, it is everything in moderation. For others, they may need to avoid foods that derail them from their goal. You have to find what works for you.
CICO is an energy balance, it is what influences all weight loss, gain, and maintenance! (you can go on bout this as much as you want)"
It's not that hard. The thing is that no one has the definitely answer that will work for everyone so telling someone to eat whatever they want is not usually helpful.
Funny thing is, these shining examples of how you think we should be responding is almost exactly the way that I, and many other of the veterans here that you are arguing with, do answer questions about CICO, and if a Calorie is just a Calorie, and if it's ok to eat a cookie if you eat clean, and why I can't lose weight when I'm doing everything right.
Because that's almost exactly how so many of us respond to these type of questions time and again, your comments that the community at large is so unhelpful and dismissive and curt and minimalist are especially offensive. But again, I'd love to see some of those examples of the overly simplistic and dismissive advice that you feel is so prevalent on these boards.
You know, on first read I honestly thought she was typing what we all usually say in order to criticize it.8 -
@GaleHawkins
The thread moved pretty quickly the last few pages, but I was sincerely hoping you would respond to my question regarding your statements around CICO and how unhelpful it is (mystical, and mythical, you've called it) because it isn't precise enough for individuals - but yet the approach you've taken with regards to playing around with macro balance, which you also state needs to be customized for the individual - is your preferred and recommended method.
Can you comment?WinoGelato wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »dangerousdashie wrote: »CICO is confusing. Calories in Calories out- Except for if you eat too little and go into starvation mode you won’t lose weight or you may even gain weight. It confuses me and I’m sure it confuses others too.
@dangerousdashie CICO is confusing only if it is applied to humans which was never the intent of the concept.
For humans at best CICO is a guessing game devoid of real science. It does not explain why people are driven to over/under eat and other causes of human disease and premature deaths.
No one posting here can even produce their own verifiable lab results proving they even know their own CICO so as human health/weight goes CICO is more mystical than anything else since counting calories is no long term protection against obesity.
When I found macros (ratio of carbs, protein and fats) that worked for me then the binging stopped being an eating problem and over time I lost 50 pounds with no weight loss goal. I have maintained that loss for three years with no counting/measuring but just eating the ratio of carbs, protein and fats that work best to recover my health. Now at 67 my health is better than 30 years ago.
What macros (ratio of carbs, protein and fats) that you need to eat can ONLY be determined by your own personal experimenting with different rations. NO one here can tell you how to eat because they do not know you and your health facts.
As a side note I do post under my real name with real profile info on MFP as well as various other non health forums as Google will show you. Currently I am binging on buying and rehabbing Ford tractors from mid 60's and up. This form of binging has not changed my weight either but keeps me moving.
Best of success.
Serious question Gale. You take issue with CICO because you say that no one can precisely measure their own TDEE therefore you think it invalidates the concept. You’ve also said before you don’t think CICO is helpful because it doesn’t address “why” humans overeat and become obese.
You’ve found good success with your approach which is a macro split which is low carb. You even say in your post here:
What macros (ratio of carbs, protein and fats) that you need to eat can ONLY be determined by your own personal experimenting with different rations. NO one here can tell you how to eat because they do not know you and your health facts.
How is that any different than people telling you time and again that we don’t need to know the exact amount of calories we burn to the decimal point. That being in the ballpark and using estimates and monitoring/adjusting based on actual results is completely effective and exactly what the concept of CICO is meant to support. How is your statement that personal experimentation with different rations is important, any different than all of us saying that what causes a person to overeat is very individual and not what CICO is meant to address, that of course a person needs to find a way of eating that is both satiating and enjoyable if they are going to be successful in the long term?
10 -
WinoGelato wrote: »No again
"Calories are what matter for weight loss but for overall health you should look at the quality of the foods that you are eating.
CICO is simple, eat less than you burn and you'll lose weight! How you achieve this is up to you and different for everyone. Take some time to trial and error what works for you. For some, it is everything in moderation. For others, they may need to avoid foods that derail them from their goal. You have to find what works for you.
CICO is an energy balance, it is what influences all weight loss, gain, and maintenance! (you can go on bout this as much as you want)"
It's not that hard. The thing is that no one has the definitely answer that will work for everyone so telling someone to eat whatever they want is not usually helpful.
Funny thing is, these shining examples of how you think we should be responding is almost exactly the way that I, and many other of the veterans here that you are arguing with, do answer questions about CICO, and if a Calorie is just a Calorie, and if it's ok to eat a cookie if you eat clean, and why I can't lose weight when I'm doing everything right.
Because that's almost exactly how so many of us respond to these type of questions time and again, your comments that the community at large is so unhelpful and dismissive and curt and minimalist are especially offensive. But again, I'd love to see some of those examples of the overly simplistic and dismissive advice that you feel is so prevalent on these boards.
You know, on first read I honestly thought she was typing what we all usually say in order to criticize it.
That's the part that kills me. I feel like I'm in the twilight zone.
Not to bring politics into this but... oh well, why the heck not. I work with a guy who is not American born, but has lived here for the past 10 or so years. He is adamantly opposed to our current administration and completely gobsmacked that these are elected officials. He continually asks me to comment on how things could be so bad, how anyone could have voted this way, how people can continue to stand behind this president and this administration. I am constantly asking him why he seems to personally blame me, or at look to me to explain the thinking behind how millions of other people chose to cast their vote and hold their beliefs day in and day out - regardless of whether it is representative of my vote and my beliefs.
This thread feels eerily similar.6 -
I 'm gonna go a different way here. (Trigger warning: It may be unsympathetic . . . but this is the debate forum.)
I have a woman in my friend feed. She is younger than me, taller than me. When I first "met" her, she was still significantly overweight. She was eating something like 1000-1100 calories, but being moderately active.
I questioned her calorie intake; it seemed astonishingly low. She said she'd been working at weight loss for a long time, including the right consults with professionals. She had found no way to lose without eating this little, and still lost only slowly. But she'd done her research, made up her mind to cram absolutely as much top notch nutrition as she could into very limited calories, stay busy (NEAT-wise) and exercise to the extent feasible within certain injury limitations that affected her at the time.
I looked at her food diary. It was detailed, meticulous, impressive. She was getting much better nutrition on 1100 calories than most MFP-ers I've seen get on twice that budget. I saw what she did for exercise activity, saw the level headed comments she made, saw her patiently chip away at weight loss over a long time. For these and other reasons, I believed everything she logged and wrote.
As her physical issues resolved, she got a trainer and started more intensive exercise, including progressive weight training. When she finally reached goal weight, she started patiently and very slowly increasing calories in "reverse dieting" fashion, keeping the stellar nutrition.
Overall, she's lost 70+ pounds, looks great, can eat a bit more now (still pretty low for her age and size). At last report, all is well. I'm sure she wishes she could eat more, but I can't say I've ever seen much comment about that.
Because of her, I'm more likely to engage with and try to encourage people who may be in a similar spot with respect to calorie requirements (though, because of TOS, I won't advocate VLCD for anyone).
I see people here moderately often who "can't lose", feel it's unfair, appear resentful of those who (like me) can eat more, chase fads and strange metabolic theories, etc. Some are quick to take neutral questions or advice as criticism. (I'm not putting all "can't lose" folks in these categories, BTW . . . but there is an observable incidence.)
I try to be understanding and sympathetic to everyone, though it's really not a native part of my nature. I try really hard, I swear. I know I don't always succeed. And I'll admit to being judgemental on the inside, sometimes, even as I try to keep it out of my posts.
Attitude and outlook are relevant to weight loss success, along with the much-maligned CICO. Relevant to life balance, satisfaction, happiness, too.
One can spend energy wanting to change one's circumstances, or one can spend energy changing one's behavior. One of these has better odds of success.
@AnnPT77 you were one of the posters I was thinking of when I posted about the others who inspired me to start giving back here (along w/ @janejellyroll @diannethegeek @WinoGelato and others I apologize for not listing). I could type pages of links to posts from just these 4 MFP veterans that are long, detailed, sympathetic, open-minded and done entirely for free and on their own time.
And this is a great example of an outlier who was still able to use CICO and calorie counting to reach her goals, for those who want the Cliff Notes. Simple, but not always easy.
Thank you, that means a lot . . . especially considering the source. :drinker: :flowerforyou:
Just FTR: I'm also one of the people who's been described as unsympathetic, judgemental, and/or dismissive . . . I've even been unfriended for it.
Can't win 'em all.
11 -
janejellyroll wrote: »
If I take up a project, like building a bookshelf, there may be many factors that compromise my ability to complete it flawlessly. My severe procrastination, my terrible skills at measuring things, the fact that my clumsy self is guaranteed to drop a hammer on my foot at some point, the fight I'll probably have with my husband as he tries to help me out and I defensively snipe at him. All of these things will be factors in how successful my bookshelf is, but none of them are going to change the instructions of how to build a bookshelf.
They're all, arguably, good things to know about myself so that I can factor them into the planning. Just like someone who wants to lose weight does better, overall, if they know certain things about themselves (like pizza being a trigger food for their ED). But I wouldn't download instructions on how to build a bookshelf and get frustrated because they didn't have time management tips for procrastinators, first aid instructions for foot injuries, or advice on how to solve marital conflict included in them.
In this analogy, if you just happen to get a box where one of the parts is missing or a board is cracked, you can follow instructions to a T and the shelf still won't hold together properly when you put it up. This is not a problem with the instructions or your execution of them but it's still a problem. And likely you'll only have one defective box out of, I don't know, several thousand. So if you go on a DIY support forum and swear up and down that you're following the instructions properly, people shouldn't believe you because it is so very unlikely that you have a defective part. After all, they all put theirs together just fine based on the same instructions and it worked! You MUST have missed a step somewhere.
18 -
nettiklive wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
If I take up a project, like building a bookshelf, there may be many factors that compromise my ability to complete it flawlessly. My severe procrastination, my terrible skills at measuring things, the fact that my clumsy self is guaranteed to drop a hammer on my foot at some point, the fight I'll probably have with my husband as he tries to help me out and I defensively snipe at him. All of these things will be factors in how successful my bookshelf is, but none of them are going to change the instructions of how to build a bookshelf.
They're all, arguably, good things to know about myself so that I can factor them into the planning. Just like someone who wants to lose weight does better, overall, if they know certain things about themselves (like pizza being a trigger food for their ED). But I wouldn't download instructions on how to build a bookshelf and get frustrated because they didn't have time management tips for procrastinators, first aid instructions for foot injuries, or advice on how to solve marital conflict included in them.
In this analogy, if you just happen to get a box where one of the parts is missing or a board is cracked, you can follow instructions to a T and the shelf still won't hold together properly when you put it up. This is not a problem with the instructions or your execution of them but it's still a problem. And likely you'll only have one defective box out of, I don't know, several thousand. So if you go on a DIY support forum and swear up and down that you're following the instructions properly, people shouldn't believe you because it is so very unlikely that you have a defective part. After all, they all put theirs together just fine based on the same instructions and it worked! You MUST have missed a step somewhere.
Usually the instructions for this sort of thing includes an inventory list. ... Just sayin'. So presumably, if you're missing a piece, you would know if you read the instructions.
I cannot believe how patient some of the other people in this forum are.22 -
nettiklive wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
If I take up a project, like building a bookshelf, there may be many factors that compromise my ability to complete it flawlessly. My severe procrastination, my terrible skills at measuring things, the fact that my clumsy self is guaranteed to drop a hammer on my foot at some point, the fight I'll probably have with my husband as he tries to help me out and I defensively snipe at him. All of these things will be factors in how successful my bookshelf is, but none of them are going to change the instructions of how to build a bookshelf.
They're all, arguably, good things to know about myself so that I can factor them into the planning. Just like someone who wants to lose weight does better, overall, if they know certain things about themselves (like pizza being a trigger food for their ED). But I wouldn't download instructions on how to build a bookshelf and get frustrated because they didn't have time management tips for procrastinators, first aid instructions for foot injuries, or advice on how to solve marital conflict included in them.
In this analogy, if you just happen to get a box where one of the parts is missing or a board is cracked, you can follow instructions to a T and the shelf still won't hold together properly when you put it up. This is not a problem with the instructions or your execution of them but it's still a problem. And likely you'll only have one defective box out of, I don't know, several thousand. So if you go on a DIY support forum and swear up and down that you're following the instructions properly, people shouldn't believe you because it is so very unlikely that you have a defective part. After all, they all put theirs together just fine based on the same instructions and it worked! You MUST have missed a step somewhere.
Usually the instructions for this sort of thing includes an inventory list. ... Just sayin'. So presumably, if you're missing a piece, you would know if you read the instructions.
I cannot believe how patient some of the other people in this forum are.
That’s why there is a parts list. Maybe MFP needs a parts list. I dunno.9 -
L1zardQueen wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
If I take up a project, like building a bookshelf, there may be many factors that compromise my ability to complete it flawlessly. My severe procrastination, my terrible skills at measuring things, the fact that my clumsy self is guaranteed to drop a hammer on my foot at some point, the fight I'll probably have with my husband as he tries to help me out and I defensively snipe at him. All of these things will be factors in how successful my bookshelf is, but none of them are going to change the instructions of how to build a bookshelf.
They're all, arguably, good things to know about myself so that I can factor them into the planning. Just like someone who wants to lose weight does better, overall, if they know certain things about themselves (like pizza being a trigger food for their ED). But I wouldn't download instructions on how to build a bookshelf and get frustrated because they didn't have time management tips for procrastinators, first aid instructions for foot injuries, or advice on how to solve marital conflict included in them.
In this analogy, if you just happen to get a box where one of the parts is missing or a board is cracked, you can follow instructions to a T and the shelf still won't hold together properly when you put it up. This is not a problem with the instructions or your execution of them but it's still a problem. And likely you'll only have one defective box out of, I don't know, several thousand. So if you go on a DIY support forum and swear up and down that you're following the instructions properly, people shouldn't believe you because it is so very unlikely that you have a defective part. After all, they all put theirs together just fine based on the same instructions and it worked! You MUST have missed a step somewhere.
Usually the instructions for this sort of thing includes an inventory list. ... Just sayin'. So presumably, if you're missing a piece, you would know if you read the instructions.
I cannot believe how patient some of the other people in this forum are.
That’s why there is a parts list. Maybe MFP needs a parts list. I dunno.
I mean, we can't get people to read the stickies so I'm not sure a parts list would help.21 -
nettiklive wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
If I take up a project, like building a bookshelf, there may be many factors that compromise my ability to complete it flawlessly. My severe procrastination, my terrible skills at measuring things, the fact that my clumsy self is guaranteed to drop a hammer on my foot at some point, the fight I'll probably have with my husband as he tries to help me out and I defensively snipe at him. All of these things will be factors in how successful my bookshelf is, but none of them are going to change the instructions of how to build a bookshelf.
They're all, arguably, good things to know about myself so that I can factor them into the planning. Just like someone who wants to lose weight does better, overall, if they know certain things about themselves (like pizza being a trigger food for their ED). But I wouldn't download instructions on how to build a bookshelf and get frustrated because they didn't have time management tips for procrastinators, first aid instructions for foot injuries, or advice on how to solve marital conflict included in them.
In this analogy, if you just happen to get a box where one of the parts is missing or a board is cracked, you can follow instructions to a T and the shelf still won't hold together properly when you put it up. This is not a problem with the instructions or your execution of them but it's still a problem. And likely you'll only have one defective box out of, I don't know, several thousand. So if you go on a DIY support forum and swear up and down that you're following the instructions properly, people shouldn't believe you because it is so very unlikely that you have a defective part. After all, they all put theirs together just fine based on the same instructions and it worked! You MUST have missed a step somewhere.
And in this analogy how would you feel about someone who insists that process given in the instructions for building the shelf, and the math used to measure the number of parts necessary (you know...counting them) is obviously flawed by nature because you, and and others got boxes with missing parts? I mean, isn't the correct answer, "Use the same process to build the shelf, and make sure to count the parts, while taking steps to correct other possible issues, like contacting customer service to get replacement parts sent? None of which changes the underlying requirements for achieving a functional bookshelf
Essentially, recognize that the underlying process is what it is, count all the parts, and if there are other issues affecting that process, adjust as necessary to get your desired end result. Changing the energy balance is how one loses weight. The standard math formula to measure that balance is CICO. Nutrient balance, special dietary/medical needs are the other issues one needs to address. This can be addressed by different diets, kinds of exercise, medicine, etc.. Weight loss** is the bookshelf.
**Or whatever one may choose as a goal.15 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »dangerousdashie wrote: »CICO is confusing. Calories in Calories out- Except for if you eat too little and go into starvation mode you won’t lose weight or you may even gain weight. It confuses me and I’m sure it confuses others too.
@dangerousdashie CICO is confusing only if it is applied to humans which was never the intent of the concept.
For humans at best CICO is a guessing game devoid of real science. It does not explain why people are driven to over/under eat and other causes of human disease and premature deaths.
No one posting here can even produce their own verifiable lab results proving they even know their own CICO so as human health/weight goes CICO is more mystical than anything else since counting calories is no long term protection against obesity.
When I found macros (ratio of carbs, protein and fats) that worked for me then the binging stopped being an eating problem and over time I lost 50 pounds with no weight loss goal. I have maintained that loss for three years with no counting/measuring but just eating the ratio of carbs, protein and fats that work best to recover my health. Now at 67 my health is better than 30 years ago.
What macros (ratio of carbs, protein and fats) that you need to eat can ONLY be determined by your own personal experimenting with different rations. NO one here can tell you how to eat because they do not know you and your health facts.
As a side note I do post under my real name with real profile info on MFP as well as various other non health forums as Google will show you. Currently I am binging on buying and rehabbing Ford tractors from mid 60's and up. This form of binging has not changed my weight either but keeps me moving.
Best of success.
If CICO wasn't meant to describe how weight loss/gain works for humans and other animals, what was the intention?
https://google.com/search?q=cico&oq=CICO&aqs=chrome.0.0l2j35i39j0l3.6711j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
This is what I got when I Googled the term CICO.
What do you think this demonstrates?
Also, are you aware that different people googling the same thing will get different results?
It clearly demonstrates CICO has no universal meaning hence its myth like quality.
That you can google and find people who believe "alternative facts" does not mean they are in fact facts.
I can google and find posts and sites about how we never went to the moon, and how Elvis is alive (possibly on the moon, with JFK), and how aliens are responsible for us growing wheat. That doesn't make those things true, and it doesn't mean we can't reasonably determine whether they are true or not.
Similarly, that some people may have created fad diets they call CICO does not mean CICO does not actually mean anything.
In any case, beyond its broader meaning, CICO is a term used and defined commonly on the MFP forums to mean that calorie balance is what determines whether you lose, gain, or maintain. Period. If despite it being explained to you over and over you still want to pretend like you think it means something else, whatever floats your boat, but relying on a google search and the various websites that come up as evidence of any fact just makes you look silly or extremely naive or perhaps like you are trolling. Not saying it's any of these things, of course, just sayin'.
Oh, and anyone who thinks that there are unique broccoli calories with nutrients, rather than both calories and nutrients being properties of broccoli, doesn't know what they are talking about. People who claim calories are different are using words badly and using "calories" as a metaphor for food (technically, as synedoche) in a context in which that is inherently misleading. Poor writing at best.15 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »...
A follow up question is why, after the misunderstanding is cleared up, do some continue to deny CICO. Why cling to ideas that make no sense and that would rob you of the understanding that you do have control?
I'm late to this, but I ran into someone today that was a firm denier that Calories had anything to do with weight management - rather he insisted it was insulin.
In our (at times heated) discussion, it became apparent that he had a little bit of information, but couldn't properly apply it. He couldn't get past insulin's role in storage, and that your body isn't constantly storing fat just because you ate some carbs. Rather, insulin is produced simply because you ate, so it wasn't because of carbs. He saddened me by quoting Hyman. At least he didn't quote Fung, or I probably would have completely lost my puppy on him.
Hopefully he looks up the sources I suggested (Norton, Aragon, Krieger, McDonald, and a couple others) and sees the light. Unfortunately, probably not, as he claimed that he's proven that it's insulin and not Calories.
eta: What I was trying to get at, in order to give one answer to the quoted question, was that it's sometimes caused by people only seeing one piece of the puzzle, and not able to see the big picture.
4 -
I think I've been on this DIY support forum. There are usually 10 people offering weird but helpful suggestions and one person shouting about how the bookshelf I bought is junk and I should return it and buy a fancier storage armoire that looks nothing like my bookcase from a completely different company.6
-
I had stomach flu a few times in the past. I didnt eat for days and barely drank fluids yet the scale said I gained 2 lbs. I have gained or lost 10 lbs in a month without changing my diet, but by taking birth control pills or thyroid meds. Some weight loss or gain is hormonal and defies the laws of CICO. But, for the most part it works.
That’s as silly as saying gravity works for the most part. CICO isn’t a kinda sorta maybe sometimes principle. It’s a physical law, just like gravity.
OMFG!!!
I used this same analogy in my discussion earlier. Just because you can launch a ship into space that will (likely) never return to Earth doesn't mean Newton et al was wrong about gravity.5 -
It’s just a shame that the results of CICO aren’t as acute/immediate as those of gravity. I mean, I could tell a gravity denier to jump out of a tree headfirst and let us know what happens. Too bad there’s not an equivalent for CICO deniers.I had stomach flu a few times in the past. I didnt eat for days and barely drank fluids yet the scale said I gained 2 lbs. I have gained or lost 10 lbs in a month without changing my diet, but by taking birth control pills or thyroid meds. Some weight loss or gain is hormonal and defies the laws of CICO. But, for the most part it works.
That’s as silly as saying gravity works for the most part. CICO isn’t a kinda sorta maybe sometimes principle. It’s a physical law, just like gravity.
OMFG!!!
I used this same analogy in my discussion earlier. Just because you can launch a ship into space that will (likely) never return to Earth doesn't mean Newton et al was wrong about gravity.
9 -
stevencloser wrote: »Temperature is useless because it doesn't take into account whether I run around naked or dressed like I'm going to climb mount Everest.
Vid or it never... never mind.5 -
Some people just want to ignore reality. "Being morbidly obese is no big deal." "Eating lots of red meat is good for you." "Vegetables are gross." "You are listening to diet nuts and vegetarian freaks and that makes you a nut, too." "Doctors don't know what they are talking about." "Nutritionists don't know what they are talking about." "I would rather eat what I want and die young than eat rabbit food. Besides, it is all crap. I plan to live to 150." Heard all of these comments at one time or another. Doesn't keep me from wanting to eat a better diet and take care of my health.
10 -
stanmann571 wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Temperature is useless because it doesn't take into account whether I run around naked or dressed like I'm going to climb mount Everest.
This is true. I mean, everyone experiences temperature differently. If it's 65 degrees F outside, some people will be chilly and some will be warm. Temperature is a useless myth that is not useful to people so meteorologists should stop reporting it. I'm going to throw out my thermometers, I've always had the feeling they were inaccurate anyway.
See, you completely misunderstand what the purpose of temperature is........
Isn't it temperature that keeps my apartment warm?
It depends on what kind of temperature - gas temperature isn't the same thing as electric temperature.
QFT. Protein farts rule.3 -
stevencloser wrote: »Temperature is useless because it doesn't take into account whether I run around naked or dressed like I'm going to climb mount Everest.
Vid or it never... never mind.
I was looking for a quip that wouldn't be Deeply Inappropriate. I failed.
You win my internet today.5 -
nettiklive wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
If I take up a project, like building a bookshelf, there may be many factors that compromise my ability to complete it flawlessly. My severe procrastination, my terrible skills at measuring things, the fact that my clumsy self is guaranteed to drop a hammer on my foot at some point, the fight I'll probably have with my husband as he tries to help me out and I defensively snipe at him. All of these things will be factors in how successful my bookshelf is, but none of them are going to change the instructions of how to build a bookshelf.
They're all, arguably, good things to know about myself so that I can factor them into the planning. Just like someone who wants to lose weight does better, overall, if they know certain things about themselves (like pizza being a trigger food for their ED). But I wouldn't download instructions on how to build a bookshelf and get frustrated because they didn't have time management tips for procrastinators, first aid instructions for foot injuries, or advice on how to solve marital conflict included in them.
In this analogy, if you just happen to get a box where one of the parts is missing or a board is cracked, you can follow instructions to a T and the shelf still won't hold together properly when you put it up. This is not a problem with the instructions or your execution of them but it's still a problem. And likely you'll only have one defective box out of, I don't know, several thousand. So if you go on a DIY support forum and swear up and down that you're following the instructions properly, people shouldn't believe you because it is so very unlikely that you have a defective part. After all, they all put theirs together just fine based on the same instructions and it worked! You MUST have missed a step somewhere.- Following the standard instructions is the only way you will ever figure out you are missing a piece.
- When someone opens their diary and we see they are logging accurately, we then trouble shoot other issues and often finally suggest they get bloodwork done and consult with their doctor.
Not seeing how this invalidates CICO or calorie counting, or makes the typical MFP Forum advice not useful
*
*
ETA: This is the first time I have used the grey question mark emoji, and it is rather anti-climactic considering the grey text box. #emojifail11 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »dangerousdashie wrote: »CICO is confusing. Calories in Calories out- Except for if you eat too little and go into starvation mode you won’t lose weight or you may even gain weight. It confuses me and I’m sure it confuses others too.
@dangerousdashie CICO is confusing only if it is applied to humans which was never the intent of the concept.
For humans at best CICO is a guessing game devoid of real science. It does not explain why people are driven to over/under eat and other causes of human disease and premature deaths.
No one posting here can even produce their own verifiable lab results proving they even know their own CICO so as human health/weight goes CICO is more mystical than anything else since counting calories is no long term protection against obesity.
When I found macros (ratio of carbs, protein and fats) that worked for me then the binging stopped being an eating problem and over time I lost 50 pounds with no weight loss goal. I have maintained that loss for three years with no counting/measuring but just eating the ratio of carbs, protein and fats that work best to recover my health. Now at 67 my health is better than 30 years ago.
What macros (ratio of carbs, protein and fats) that you need to eat can ONLY be determined by your own personal experimenting with different rations. NO one here can tell you how to eat because they do not know you and your health facts.
As a side note I do post under my real name with real profile info on MFP as well as various other non health forums as Google will show you. Currently I am binging on buying and rehabbing Ford tractors from mid 60's and up. This form of binging has not changed my weight either but keeps me moving.
Best of success.
If CICO wasn't meant to describe how weight loss/gain works for humans and other animals, what was the intention?
https://google.com/search?q=cico&oq=CICO&aqs=chrome.0.0l2j35i39j0l3.6711j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
This is what I got when I Googled the term CICO.
What do you think this demonstrates?
Also, are you aware that different people googling the same thing will get different results?
It clearly demonstrates CICO has no universal meaning hence its myth like quality.
While CICO is what it is it still is without functional value to better health because it remains undefined.
It leads some to think a Calorie Is A Calorie which is not factual when we are talking about humans. You may find the below helpful in clearing up misconceptions on this subject.
blog.myfitnesspal.com/essential-guide-metabolism/
Ok Gale, I'll bite... please give me a direct quote from the article that says calories are not all the same and the CICO is invalid when applied to humans or in any other way refutes the statements that have been made in this discussion (or supports the other side where CICO is bunk).8 -
This is exactly why I try to stay off the forums. You all claim to be so supportive. I never indicated a misunderstanding on CICO nor did I say it doesn't work. I started by saying it was the way to lose weight however the execution was not that simple and get jumped on for not understanding CICO or I must be new. I have been on MFP for 7 years on and off. I have lost an extreme amount of weight but since I don't have 14k posts, my 170lb weight loss must not indicate any knowledge if weight loss or the struggles.
I am on many ither forums that I highly participate in because they are far more positive and supportive. MFP is the best for calorie counting but the worst for advice and support.
I’m afraid I’m with you there. Whether it is intentional misunderstanding, or one sided demands for evidence and one sided rejection of anecdotal support - or strawman restatements of my discussion points or my questions, or the multiple dismissive (at best) immediate response posts by the usual suspects. Or the latest - one person saying CICO isn’t calorie counting and the next person saying CICO is the calorie component to weight loss (get your story straight, gals) — I never did figure out how to communicate without the bash/ ridicule/ woo fest commencing. Just a little ‘I feel for you’ post before I disappear into the woodwork again - so no one needs to respond, I’ll be properly silent in my disagreement, disregard or even simple queries for some time after this again.
You are not alone, but probably anyone reasonable who might agree with some or all of what you have posted (like me) have long since given up.
Calorie counting isn't the same as the mechanism by which calories are operating. There's not a story that's not straight.
Calories are ingested, and calories are burned. You can count them or not. The ingestion and burning still happens even if you're blissfully ignorant of the fact.
Now, technically, you're not ingesting calories themselves, but they are a measure we use to indicate the energy provided by the food we eat. But this is a whole other discussion.15 -
nettiklive wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
If I take up a project, like building a bookshelf, there may be many factors that compromise my ability to complete it flawlessly. My severe procrastination, my terrible skills at measuring things, the fact that my clumsy self is guaranteed to drop a hammer on my foot at some point, the fight I'll probably have with my husband as he tries to help me out and I defensively snipe at him. All of these things will be factors in how successful my bookshelf is, but none of them are going to change the instructions of how to build a bookshelf.
They're all, arguably, good things to know about myself so that I can factor them into the planning. Just like someone who wants to lose weight does better, overall, if they know certain things about themselves (like pizza being a trigger food for their ED). But I wouldn't download instructions on how to build a bookshelf and get frustrated because they didn't have time management tips for procrastinators, first aid instructions for foot injuries, or advice on how to solve marital conflict included in them.
In this analogy, if you just happen to get a box where one of the parts is missing or a board is cracked, you can follow instructions to a T and the shelf still won't hold together properly when you put it up. This is not a problem with the instructions or your execution of them but it's still a problem. And likely you'll only have one defective box out of, I don't know, several thousand. So if you go on a DIY support forum and swear up and down that you're following the instructions properly, people shouldn't believe you because it is so very unlikely that you have a defective part. After all, they all put theirs together just fine based on the same instructions and it worked! You MUST have missed a step somewhere.
Usually the instructions for this sort of thing includes an inventory list. ... Just sayin'. So presumably, if you're missing a piece, you would know if you read the instructions.
I cannot believe how patient some of the other people in this forum are.
That, and it seems highly reminiscent of the threads we see where - on page 2 or 3 - oh, yeah OP has undisclosed medical issues (aka the cracked board). Oh, you have PCOS? Yeah - low carb would probably be a really good idea for you. But, until that was disclosed, there was no reason for anyone to think OP would "need" low-carb.6 -
I 'm gonna go a different way here. (Trigger warning: It may be unsympathetic . . . but this is the debate forum.)
I have a woman in my friend feed. She is younger than me, taller than me. When I first "met" her, she was still significantly overweight. She was eating something like 1000-1100 calories, but being moderately active.
I questioned her calorie intake; it seemed astonishingly low. She said she'd been working at weight loss for a long time, including the right consults with professionals. She had found no way to lose without eating this little, and still lost only slowly. But she'd done her research, made up her mind to cram absolutely as much top notch nutrition as she could into very limited calories, stay busy (NEAT-wise) and exercise to the extent feasible within certain injury limitations that affected her at the time.
I looked at her food diary. It was detailed, meticulous, impressive. She was getting much better nutrition on 1100 calories than most MFP-ers I've seen get on twice that budget. I saw what she did for exercise activity, saw the level headed comments she made, saw her patiently chip away at weight loss over a long time. For these and other reasons, I believed everything she logged and wrote.
As her physical issues resolved, she got a trainer and started more intensive exercise, including progressive weight training. When she finally reached goal weight, she started patiently and very slowly increasing calories in "reverse dieting" fashion, keeping the stellar nutrition.
Overall, she's lost 70+ pounds, looks great, can eat a bit more now (still pretty low for her age and size). At last report, all is well. I'm sure she wishes she could eat more, but I can't say I've ever seen much comment about that.
Because of her, I'm more likely to engage with and try to encourage people who may be in a similar spot with respect to calorie requirements (though, because of TOS, I won't advocate VLCD for anyone).
I see people here moderately often who "can't lose", feel it's unfair, appear resentful of those who (like me) can eat more, chase fads and strange metabolic theories, etc. Some are quick to take neutral questions or advice as criticism. (I'm not putting all "can't lose" folks in these categories, BTW . . . but there is an observable incidence.)
I try to be understanding and sympathetic to everyone, though it's really not a native part of my nature. I try really hard, I swear. I know I don't always succeed. And I'll admit to being judgemental on the inside, sometimes, even as I try to keep it out of my posts.
Attitude and outlook are relevant to weight loss success, along with the much-maligned CICO. Relevant to life balance, satisfaction, happiness, too.
One can spend energy wanting to change one's circumstances, or one can spend energy changing one's behavior. One of these has better odds of success.
THIS. Dear Glob THIS.
I will just share a small glimpse into my personal life, which I almost ruined. I was in a deep depression, but part of that was of my own making because my mindset was such that I didn't feel I had any agency in what happened to me. When I first became ill, it devastated me, and I packed on the pounds and became less active and just felt hopeless.
Turning my life around, finding my way to optimism and agency and seeing the glass that had been half empty as being half full (heck, now I feel like it's brimming over, I'm so overwhelmed by gratitude to have turned my life around) has made all the difference in the world.
I've even had a new diagnosis within the past few months and just shrugged and continued on because I've learned that life really is better when you concentrate on what you do have and can do instead of what you don't have and can't do.18
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