Friend on plan with too few calories
Replies
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stanmann571 wrote: »collectingblues wrote: »collectingblues wrote: »collectingblues wrote: »
But yeah that would put her in a starvation mode so she would propably be just better off doing water fasting to avoid that and keep that 127 lbs of lean masswhile burning the fat.
LOL. What now?
a) Starvation mode doesn't exist.
b) Water fasting in lieu of eating is just plain stupid.
Oh, and you forgot - if too few calories equals 'starvation mode' how does a water fast (i.e. zero calories) not equal the same thing?!?!?
When you are on a regular caloric restriction diet and eat a deficit your body adapts to that deficit. This happens by lowering you metabolic rate and reducing musclemass. This is a well known fact. When you water fast for a longer period of time the body does the opposite and the metabolic rate raises up to 22% due to the increase in noradrenaline levels after 3 days. After 4 days your body stops with the gluconeogenesis since you are in gull keto and starts to use your own fat storages to fuel you. Your hgh levels rest at 5 times at 5 day mark protecting your muscle and helping the lipolysis. This way your body gets 95% of its energy from fat and only 5% from muscle.
What is your source for this (not the AT, the rest of the stuff about fasting)?
The complete guide to fasting - Jason fung. You can find some of his lectures and interviews on YouTube and I recommend checking them out.
Well, that explains it. Fung's a quack.
Care to elaborate why you think a doctor healing people with level 2 diabetes for a living is a quack? Wanna make a solid argument and not resort to name calling like a child?
Because type 2 diabetes is a chronic illness, and by its very definition cannot be cured/healed. You can go into remission if you *constantly* maintain certain nutritional levels, or go on medication, but you cannot cure it.
Anyone who claims you can cure diabetes is a shoddy practitioner.
Further, if you were "healed" you could go back to eating whatever you like. instead of following the Fung diet forever.
So, not a cure, maybe a non-pharmaceutical treatment.
Yup. Just edited to add that in.
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kshama2001 wrote: »collectingblues wrote: »collectingblues wrote: »
But yeah that would put her in a starvation mode so she would propably be just better off doing water fasting to avoid that and keep that 127 lbs of lean masswhile burning the fat.
LOL. What now?
a) Starvation mode doesn't exist.
b) Water fasting in lieu of eating is just plain stupid.
Oh, and you forgot - if too few calories equals 'starvation mode' how does a water fast (i.e. zero calories) not equal the same thing?!?!?
When you are on a regular caloric restriction diet and eat a deficit your body adapts to that deficit. This happens by lowering you metabolic rate and reducing musclemass. This is a well known fact. When you water fast for a longer period of time the body does the opposite and the metabolic rate raises up to 22% due to the increase in noradrenaline levels after 3 days. After 4 days your body stops with the gluconeogenesis since you are in gull keto and starts to use your own fat storages to fuel you. Your hgh levels rest at 5 times at 5 day mark protecting your muscle and helping the lipolysis. This way your body gets 95% of its energy from fat and only 5% from muscle.
What is your source for this (not the AT, the rest of the stuff about fasting)?
The complete guide to fasting - Jason fung. You can find some of his lectures and interviews on YouTube and I recommend checking them out.
Well, that explains it. Fung's a quack.
Care to elaborate why you think a doctor healing people with level 2 diabetes for a living is a quack? Wanna make a solid argument and not resort to name calling like a child?
Apparently Fung tells his wife all the time he might be a quack.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10675505/nusi-circling-the-drain
That's actually Taubes, not Fung.2 -
I just read Taubes and Fung. Slowly backing out of this thread lol12
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I've heard that some dietitians and doctors recommend a lower calorie goal to compensate for inaccurate logging. They assume most people will eyeball portions and forget to log some things.
Even so - I don't agree with that practice and think that doctors should set their patients up for success by explaining how to log accurately and stick to a healthy goal.
This is pretty much what we were both thinking (she agreed that 900 is very low). The plan includes protein shakes, lean proteins, and veggies, which explains how they get it to so low. To the person who said medical pros aren't always right--agree entirely. I'm just saying it's really, really well-respected hospital, which was, in part, why I was so surprised. If I were in a similar situation and a medical professional told me to eat 900 calories, I wouldn't do it. And I'd demand my $$$ back. I'm going to ask her to show me ALL the materials they gave her.5 -
kshama2001 wrote: »collectingblues wrote: »collectingblues wrote: »
But yeah that would put her in a starvation mode so she would propably be just better off doing water fasting to avoid that and keep that 127 lbs of lean masswhile burning the fat.
LOL. What now?
a) Starvation mode doesn't exist.
b) Water fasting in lieu of eating is just plain stupid.
Oh, and you forgot - if too few calories equals 'starvation mode' how does a water fast (i.e. zero calories) not equal the same thing?!?!?
When you are on a regular caloric restriction diet and eat a deficit your body adapts to that deficit. This happens by lowering you metabolic rate and reducing musclemass. This is a well known fact. When you water fast for a longer period of time the body does the opposite and the metabolic rate raises up to 22% due to the increase in noradrenaline levels after 3 days. After 4 days your body stops with the gluconeogenesis since you are in gull keto and starts to use your own fat storages to fuel you. Your hgh levels rest at 5 times at 5 day mark protecting your muscle and helping the lipolysis. This way your body gets 95% of its energy from fat and only 5% from muscle.
What is your source for this (not the AT, the rest of the stuff about fasting)?
The complete guide to fasting - Jason fung. You can find some of his lectures and interviews on YouTube and I recommend checking them out.
Well, that explains it. Fung's a quack.
Care to elaborate why you think a doctor healing people with level 2 diabetes for a living is a quack? Wanna make a solid argument and not resort to name calling like a child?
Apparently Fung tells his wife all the time he might be a quack.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10675505/nusi-circling-the-drain
That's actually Taubes, not Fung.
Oops, having problems keeping track of quacks. Thanks!9 -
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SuzySunshine99 wrote: »collectingblues wrote: »Pipsqueak1965 wrote: »127 pounds of lean muscle mass? That sounds impossible to me?
Why? I don't know about the muscle part, but it certainly could be true for lean mass in general. If the friend needs to lose 60 pounds, I'll estimate that she's maybe 190 (could be higher, could be lower, of course.) If you then assume that the body fat is 30 percent, that takes you to 133 of lean mass.
I think we know what you mean, but people get caught up in the terminology. Our body weight is not a combination of only fat and muscle mass. We have bones, organs, fluids, etc, that would not be considered "lean mass". It's not the point of your post so it doesn't matter but I'm just giving you an explanation as to why people are questioning your statement.
This is why the scientific literature refers to Fat Mass (FM) and Fat-Free Mass (FFM), not "Lean Mass," to avoid this terminology confusion. It's probably a good idea to transition to this usage.
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I have seen on that extreme weight loss show (where participants are trying to qualify for weight loss surgery - is it “my 600 pound life”?) that the doc will put his patients on a medically supervised diet of about 900 calories a day, and it’s supposed to be just protein and veggies. But those people are generally 500+ pounds, and I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone actually stick to the 900 calories.
So I guess it’s possible that a medical centre is recommending 900 calories...but whether they “should” or not is totally beyond me.
I watch this show and every episode I have seen he puts them on a 1200 calorie diet - never heard him say 900 calories/day.4 -
kshama2001 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »collectingblues wrote: »collectingblues wrote: »
But yeah that would put her in a starvation mode so she would propably be just better off doing water fasting to avoid that and keep that 127 lbs of lean masswhile burning the fat.
LOL. What now?
a) Starvation mode doesn't exist.
b) Water fasting in lieu of eating is just plain stupid.
Oh, and you forgot - if too few calories equals 'starvation mode' how does a water fast (i.e. zero calories) not equal the same thing?!?!?
When you are on a regular caloric restriction diet and eat a deficit your body adapts to that deficit. This happens by lowering you metabolic rate and reducing musclemass. This is a well known fact. When you water fast for a longer period of time the body does the opposite and the metabolic rate raises up to 22% due to the increase in noradrenaline levels after 3 days. After 4 days your body stops with the gluconeogenesis since you are in gull keto and starts to use your own fat storages to fuel you. Your hgh levels rest at 5 times at 5 day mark protecting your muscle and helping the lipolysis. This way your body gets 95% of its energy from fat and only 5% from muscle.
What is your source for this (not the AT, the rest of the stuff about fasting)?
The complete guide to fasting - Jason fung. You can find some of his lectures and interviews on YouTube and I recommend checking them out.
Well, that explains it. Fung's a quack.
Care to elaborate why you think a doctor healing people with level 2 diabetes for a living is a quack? Wanna make a solid argument and not resort to name calling like a child?
Apparently Fung tells his wife all the time he might be a quack.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10675505/nusi-circling-the-drain
That's actually Taubes, not Fung.
Oops, having problems keeping track of quacks. Thanks!
It's tough, when they are duck walking in circles. :laugh:3 -
candicew125 wrote: »I've heard that some dietitians and doctors recommend a lower calorie goal to compensate for inaccurate logging. They assume most people will eyeball portions and forget to log some things.
Even so - I don't agree with that practice and think that doctors should set their patients up for success by explaining how to log accurately and stick to a healthy goal.
This is pretty much what we were both thinking (she agreed that 900 is very low). The plan includes protein shakes, lean proteins, and veggies, which explains how they get it to so low. To the person who said medical pros aren't always right--agree entirely. I'm just saying it's really, really well-respected hospital, which was, in part, why I was so surprised. If I were in a similar situation and a medical professional told me to eat 900 calories, I wouldn't do it. And I'd demand my $$$ back. I'm going to ask her to show me ALL the materials they gave her.
I love that you care this much about your friend, and that she's not fooled by this either.
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I am eating keto and losing weight pretty quickly. My doctor suggested eating only 500 calories a day 3x a week for a few weeks, then 2x a week for a month, then once a week for however long I wish. It's not unheard of. I haven't tried it though but it won't kill you. Just wouldnt do it every single day. On a normal day I eat 1200-1300 calories.13
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LOL!
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I love that you care this much about your friend, and that she's not fooled by this either. [/quote]
She's been struggling with her weight her whole life, and I want her to be successful. I read the study on some of the folks who participated in the Biggest Loser. It's extreme, of course--that's the whole point. You can't have a tv show about people losing a pound a week
But it sounds like once you screw up your metabolism, it's REALLY hard to get it back to normal. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/6-years-after-the-biggest-loser-metabolism-is-slower-and-weight-is-back-up/meow123393 wrote: »I am eating keto and losing weight pretty quickly. My doctor suggested eating only 500 calories a day 3x a week for a few weeks, then 2x a week for a month, then once a week for however long I wish. It's not unheard of. I haven't tried it though but it won't kill you. Just wouldnt do it every single day. On a normal day I eat 1200-1300 calories.
Ok--this is what I was wondering. Maybe that's what's going on. It's just more controlled... ?
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Muscleflex79 wrote: »I have seen on that extreme weight loss show (where participants are trying to qualify for weight loss surgery - is it “my 600 pound life”?) that the doc will put his patients on a medically supervised diet of about 900 calories a day, and it’s supposed to be just protein and veggies. But those people are generally 500+ pounds, and I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone actually stick to the 900 calories.
So I guess it’s possible that a medical centre is recommending 900 calories...but whether they “should” or not is totally beyond me.
I watch this show and every episode I have seen he puts them on a 1200 calorie diet - never heard him say 900 calories/day.
I don't remember the amount of calories, but I do know that at some point in all the My 600 Pound Life episodes the patients swore up and down they were following the diet when the scale showed they were not.
I bet some doctors do low ball patients in order to get them to the numbers they actually want. I wouldn't want any doctor of mine to do this, but I'm sure it happens.2 -
kshama2001 wrote: »Muscleflex79 wrote: »I have seen on that extreme weight loss show (where participants are trying to qualify for weight loss surgery - is it “my 600 pound life”?) that the doc will put his patients on a medically supervised diet of about 900 calories a day, and it’s supposed to be just protein and veggies. But those people are generally 500+ pounds, and I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone actually stick to the 900 calories.
So I guess it’s possible that a medical centre is recommending 900 calories...but whether they “should” or not is totally beyond me.
I watch this show and every episode I have seen he puts them on a 1200 calorie diet - never heard him say 900 calories/day.
I don't remember the amount of calories, but I do know that at some point in all the My 600 Pound Life episodes the patients swore up and down they were following the diet when the scale showed they were not.
I bet some doctors do low ball patients in order to get them to the numbers they actually want. I wouldn't want any doctor of mine to do this, but I'm sure it happens.
yep I had one who told me to eat 1200 when my BMR is 1272(ive been keeping data to see what my BMR is). I told her there was no way I could eat so little. I was already working out 2x a day at that time too.0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »Muscleflex79 wrote: »I have seen on that extreme weight loss show (where participants are trying to qualify for weight loss surgery - is it “my 600 pound life”?) that the doc will put his patients on a medically supervised diet of about 900 calories a day, and it’s supposed to be just protein and veggies. But those people are generally 500+ pounds, and I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone actually stick to the 900 calories.
So I guess it’s possible that a medical centre is recommending 900 calories...but whether they “should” or not is totally beyond me.
I watch this show and every episode I have seen he puts them on a 1200 calorie diet - never heard him say 900 calories/day.
I don't remember the amount of calories, but I do know that at some point in all the My 600 Pound Life episodes the patients swore up and down they were following the diet when the scale showed they were not.
I bet some doctors do low ball patients in order to get them to the numbers they actually want. I wouldn't want any doctor of mine to do this, but I'm sure it happens.
Yes and doctors always think patients are lying. I have gastroparesis and am underweight and losing but my bloodwork is ok so my dr thinks I'm lying when I say I only get in 600-800 a day6 -
Are they selling the shakes and other food?
I am glad you care about your friend
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Muscleflex79 wrote: »I have seen on that extreme weight loss show (where participants are trying to qualify for weight loss surgery - is it “my 600 pound life”?) that the doc will put his patients on a medically supervised diet of about 900 calories a day, and it’s supposed to be just protein and veggies. But those people are generally 500+ pounds, and I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone actually stick to the 900 calories.
So I guess it’s possible that a medical centre is recommending 900 calories...but whether they “should” or not is totally beyond me.
I watch this show and every episode I have seen he puts them on a 1200 calorie diet - never heard him say 900 calories/day.
There are quite a few episodes where he puts them on an 800 calorie a day diet, but yes most of them are 1200.0 -
collectingblues wrote: »
But yeah that would put her in a starvation mode so she would propably be just better off doing water fasting to avoid that and keep that 127 lbs of lean masswhile burning the fat.
LOL. What now?
a) Starvation mode doesn't exist.
b) Water fasting in lieu of eating is just plain stupid.
Oh, and you forgot - if too few calories equals 'starvation mode' how does a water fast (i.e. zero calories) not equal the same thing?!?!?
When you are on a regular caloric restriction diet and eat a deficit your body adapts to that deficit. This happens by lowering you metabolic rate and reducing musclemass. This is a well known fact. When you water fast for a longer period of time the body does the opposite and the metabolic rate raises up to 22% due to the increase in noradrenaline levels after 3 days. After 4 days your body stops with the gluconeogenesis since you are in gull keto and starts to use your own fat storages to fuel you. Your hgh levels rest at 5 times at 5 day mark protecting your muscle and helping the lipolysis. This way your body gets 95% of its energy from fat and only 5% from muscle.
What is your source for this (not the AT, the rest of the stuff about fasting)?
The complete guide to fasting - Jason fung. You can find some of his lectures and interviews on YouTube and I recommend checking them out.
Fung.
LOL
No.
No wonder all that woo sounded like woo. Fung is a total quack and my advice would be just the opposite - I recommend ignoring anything and everything he has to say because none of it is based upon sound science. He's a snake oil peddler.5 -
No one here is a doctor (but for some reason, plenty of people here like to act the part). I'd leave it to the professionals and stop trying to interfere, your friend's health is most likely being monitered.31
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No one here is a doctor (but for some reason, plenty of people here like to act the part). I'd leave it to the professionals and stop trying to interfere, your friend's health is most likely being monitered.
I doubt it. I ended up sucked into a 'weight loss clinic' once. You get insanely low calorie goals and only a proforma health check-up to make you feel like you're monitored. Any problems you have tend to get answered with 'well if you stick with the plan, then everything will be fine'.
Everything wasn't fine, but as long as I was paying they weren't caring. Their program was a VLCD with very very low fat intake. The moment I had my first cheat meal (as per the program, so not even something I really liked, but it's what was listed) my gall bladder (already abused by previous attempts at weight loss with stupid programs) served me the divorce notice. I kept on being told I just needed to follow their program and everything would work itself out and that any problem I did have was because I wasn't sticking to their program.
There's far too many such clinics that really only want your money and don't bother with that pesky ethics sides of things. I truly hope that the OP's friend didn't end up at one of those clinics. But the chances that she isn't properly monitored are pretty high. If not, I strongly suggest she get a second opinion from a GP she trusts (and the regular follow up blood words and check ups).14 -
No one here is a doctor (but for some reason, plenty of people here like to act the part). I'd leave it to the professionals and stop trying to interfere, your friend's health is most likely being monitered.
It's always worth asking questions and getting a second opinion if you're worried. I was seeing a specialist at one point and felt he wasn't being careful enough about the potential side-effects of some of the medications he was giving me. I kept telling myself that he was the doctor and must know what he was doing. In the end though, I stopped seeing him, I felt he really didn't care enough. He's now being sued for malpractice by another patient who he's damaged for life by his negligence. I was really lucky.6 -
No one here is a doctor (but for some reason, plenty of people here like to act the part). I'd leave it to the professionals and stop trying to interfere, your friend's health is most likely being monitered.
How do you know no one is a doctor? Actually many MFPers are professionals (every now and again they confess to what they do in real life). If you follow the boards, you know who really knows, and who is full of false info--as shown by the calling out of a previous poster. Dieting the wrong way can be dangerous for your health and many people don't know that.14 -
No one here is a doctor (but for some reason, plenty of people here like to act the part). I'd leave it to the professionals and stop trying to interfere, your friend's health is most likely being monitered.
I know plenty of doctors, and I can assure you that some are very diligent, and some are really not. I could tell you stories of the significant difference that can happen in a person's life when they change doctors and are now under the care of a good one. It is essential that all patients learn to advocate for themselves (or for their loved ones, if the loved ones are unable to speak for themselves), and to ask the right questions. Questions that include "does this really make sense?" and "is this the best way to go about it, or is there a safer way?" People should not just assume that having MD behind their name guarantees competence.
And yes, there are some doctors here. I am not one of them. There are also people here who are not doctors who I would trust to guide me in regards to diet and nutrition because they have taken the time to read and understand the literature out there.8 -
I'm in the UK, there was a programme about 800 cal diets, its actually called the Newcastle diet, created for diabetics. The protocol is 4 shakes (optifast) a day, for 8 weeks. Its not something I could do, but I am doing 800 calls a day using real food, which is more doable. Its not designed for long term use.2
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Just my very unpopular opinion here, but she is being supervised by medical professionals.They have more knowledge about this INDIVIDUAL than anyone (regardless of their experience or profession) on any internet forum.
I realize there are plenty of health care professionals that don't know much about nutrition. (My nurse practioner told me I had to eat very low carb to lose weight. I had already lost over 100 pounds by the time I got this advice, eating ALL foods in moderation. This information was offered to me at a yearly routine check up. So I know about health care professionals that are not up on every facet of health issues, ie: weight loss/nutrition).
OP, is your friend being monitored by this medical center? If so, how often? What is her height & age? All can be factors. Is she taking any nutritional supplements? Any health issues?
I know that I will be blasted for saying this, cuz that is what some people do on this forum if anyone doesn't agree with them 100%. 1200 is the standard minimum calorie intake for any woman, regardless of height, age, and barring any medical issues. I am just slightly skeptical that anyone can state unequivocally, that 1200 is the bare minimum for any woman, without knowing the history behind the person, and what the medical center actually said to this person, and why the 900 calorie amount was determined. As a program at a medical facility, one would hope they are qualified and experienced to make this determination for this woman. They are more qualified to determine all issues for this woman's weight loss program than I am.
I await being blasted for this post, because that is what some people do on this forum if anyone doesn't agree with them. Having said this, there is a lot of helpful information from many, many people here.
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ChubbyMcChubface wrote: »Muscleflex79 wrote: »I have seen on that extreme weight loss show (where participants are trying to qualify for weight loss surgery - is it “my 600 pound life”?) that the doc will put his patients on a medically supervised diet of about 900 calories a day, and it’s supposed to be just protein and veggies. But those people are generally 500+ pounds, and I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone actually stick to the 900 calories.
So I guess it’s possible that a medical centre is recommending 900 calories...but whether they “should” or not is totally beyond me.
I watch this show and every episode I have seen he puts them on a 1200 calorie diet - never heard him say 900 calories/day.
There are quite a few episodes where he puts them on an 800 calorie a day diet, but yes most of them are 1200.
He does that when they aren't losing fast enough to meet whatever deadline he gives them so they can qualify for surgery.
One of my in laws was on HCG shots and put on less than 1000 calories- 2 shakes, 6 oz fish or chicken, salad as desired and steamed veggies. Didn't last long.0 -
candicew125 wrote: »My friend needs to lose about 60lbs. She joined a program lead by a leading medical center in our area that offers meal and exercise plan, counseling, etc. They did body scans, and determined that her BMR is 1600 (she has 127lbs of lean muscle). In order to preserve this, they're recommending weight lifting and cardio no more than 2x a week--which makes sense--but only 900 calories. That's insane, right? (and strikes me as incredibly irresponsible). They also talked to her about avoiding "starvation dieting" when she told them about her previous efforts to restrict calories. But uh...900 calories a day is a starvation diet. (I asked like 3 times--really? 900? you're sure?) If someone is very overweight would it make sense to start like this...? Or is this about seeing results fast (the program was spendy)? Maybe they're thinking people will not track well and go over? Am I missing something here?!!
It sounds like a poor plan to me. Why did your friend join this particular program? Does she have a medical need to lose weight quickly?
If your friend has struggled sticking to a calorie restricted diet in the past going even lower does not sound like it will be terribly sustainable.
If your friend is questioning and not feeling good about this plan maybe she should not do it, get her money back and just use MFP for free with a more sustainable calorie goal.2 -
You mean 127 lbs of lean mass, not just muscle.0
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