Meat only diet

MikePfirrman wrote: »

I personally would find it pretty gross and excessive. I do find it fascinating too. One guy I know of in the indoor rowing community is mentioned in this article. One of the better articles I've seen on it related to the topic of a meat only diet.

https://optimisingnutrition.com/2018/03/14/dr-shawn-bakers-carnivore-diet-a-review/

Really interesting article! Thanks for posting it. I want to check out all of those links later today - there's a few I haven't seen.

Shawn Baker is a machine. I used to row, but what he can do is amazing.

nvmomketo wrote: »

janejellyroll wrote: »

Serious question: for those who consider themselves to be on a meat only diet, is that also excluding herbs and spices? Even the biggest meat eaters I know enjoy seasoning their meat and many of them appreciate sauces too.

Some do. Some don't. I think it varies. I know a few who don't even add salt.

I'm of the opinion that spices are probably fine. It's such small amounts. Most people who do carnivore do it for health or weight loss, and not because plants are "bad", so if some spices work for them, then they use it. If it doesn't work, then they skip it.

I am not 100% carnivore. Just mostly carnivore. For example, the last half of last week was carnivore but on Saturday I made cheeseburger pie/eggs which had ketchup in it, as well as a 1/3 of a cup of nuts. Yesterday was Canada Day and the house I was at served food that was carby. I took full advantage of the meat and cheese tray and had small helping of lasagne and salad, as well as a small serving of angel food cake with whipped cream and berries. My highest carb meal in months. I feel fine today, if not thirstier and hungrier than usual. Today will be back to basic carnivore - probably taco fillings.

Many carnivores will still drink tea and coffee, but there are some who skip even that.

Thanks for the context!

jgnatca wrote: »

The land/ruminant/predator cycle has been a highly successful and SUSTAINING ecosystem long before we started messing with it.

^^^ For the win...

jgnatca wrote: »

Pet peeve of mine; single answer solutions. I once argued volubly (on a TED discussion board no less) that the world's food shortage would NOT be solved by planting the world with hemp.

No doubt monoculture is harsh on the environment.

But ask a farmer, for goodness' sake! There's land ideally suited to grazing, other to crops. But to suggest that too much grazing land is polluting our planet with methane? Give me a break. The land/ruminant/predator cycle has been a highly successful and SUSTAINING ecosystem long before we started messing with it.

Pffffffft. What do farmers know about farming? :laugh:

I grew up on a mixed farm. Cattle were rotated through different pastures. Type of crop was changed from one year to the next. The issues were more about financial feasibility rather than sustainability. The cost of land, the cost of equipment, the cost of supplies all make it very difficult for small farmers. You really need to be able to go big, which comes with a lot of debt and financial insecurity. At least that was the world I grew up in.

ETA: adding the "s" because I have no idea what a "mall" farmer would be.

midwesterner85 wrote: »

janejellyroll wrote: »

Serious question: for those who consider themselves to be on a meat only diet, is that also excluding herbs and spices? Even the biggest meat eaters I know enjoy seasoning their meat and many of them appreciate sauces too.

I use some spices, but try to keep it to a minimum. I add salt and pepper several times per week.

For sauces, I rarely use sauces and avoid anything sweetened when I do (i.e. none of that sugary ketchup or sugary BBQ sauce). Since returning to carnivore (Jan. 15, 2018), I have had:
-mayo once,
-twice have scraped off sauce left on burger patties by inattentive fast food workers (so there would have been small amounts that I couldn't scrape off)
-steak sauce (labeled as 0g carbs and main ingredient I believe is habanero) - I've gone through 1 full and a partial small bottle in the last few months. I don't eat it often, but add quite a bit when I do.

Thanks! It's very interesting to me, as I can't imagine eating this way (not that the limits of my imagination are particularly relevant here).

Do did this Shawn Baker guy that everyone seems to idolize and respect as "the go-to carnivore guy" ever get his medical license reinstated?

kpk54 wrote: »

Do did this Shawn Baker guy that everyone seems to idolize and respect as "the go-to carnivore guy" ever get his medical license reinstated?

He has around a 15 minute video on YouTube related to the circumstances behind that. I had no idea it was suspended. I personally like the guy. I'm a rower, though, and found him to be pretty open minded and very transparent, even though personally I disagree with his health choices. I've known Shawn (albeit not that well) for years through rowing, not through following him on Instagram.

Before he came onto the scene with his Instagram and on the Joe Rogan show, etc., he was just a guy that was working on rowing WR 500 and 1000m rows (which he ended up breaking). Now, it seems, he's also posted some medical reports where vegans are saying "see, he's not healthy" and there's a new whole debate about his health, all while he's still performing extremely well on athletic performances. Extreme low carbers and paleo supporters say his numbers are all explainable.

Regardless of what you think about him, the guy has put himself out there as a human "guinea pig". I personally think anything that extreme for long periods of time isn't healthy. His performances have defied the norm, no question. Whether or not his extreme lifestyle if a good thing/bad thing long term remains for debate.

BTW, I'm mostly Vegan, so no agenda here on the Paleo, ultra low carb bandwagon...

Christine_72 wrote: »

I couldn't do it, but i also couldn't afford it! I don't know about the US, but meat is flippan expensive here in Aus!

Chicken Breast is around $12 per kg
Porterhouse steak $20 per kg if you're lucky.
Beef mince around $10 per kg

I've tried the "Budget" red meats, and lets just say i'd rather go vegetarian than eat that yuckness

You mean like the mix'n'match meat special?

Christine_72 wrote: »

I couldn't do it, but i also couldn't afford it! I don't know about the US, but meat is flippan expensive here in Aus!

Chicken Breast is around $12 per kg
Porterhouse steak $20 per kg if you're lucky.
Beef mince around $10 per kg

I've tried the "Budget" red meats, and lets just say i'd rather go vegetarian than eat that yuckness

It depends on what you eat and where you live. If I stick with beef only, the ground beef (I assume that is what you call "beef mince") ranges based on how much fat is mixed in. Higher fat generally is cheaper. Usually, I can get ground beef where I live for around $3 USD per lb., more or less, on sale. That seems to calculate out pretty close to what you are paying. I do look for sales and freeze it. For example, I bought a 10 lb. roll of 85/15 ground beef for $25 USD last week. I can split up that 10 # roll and eat for several days. I also find roasts and sometimes steaks for $3-$5 USD per lb. The more expensive cuts can range up to $10-$15 USD per lb., but I don't buy those. That's all if I stick to beef.

Pork, on the other hand, is very cheap here. There are often sales of various cuts of pork for $1-$2 per lb. This includes boneless loin, ground pork, sausage, bratwurst, pork butt roast, etc. Ham and bacon are generally more expensive because there is more demand for that.

Chicken here is also usually pretty cheap, depending upon the cut. Boneless/skinless breast is the most expensive. There is a 10 lb. bag of chicken hind quarters on sale at a local grocery store for $4.90 ($0.49 per lb.). Turkey is not much more expensive, and become really cheap around the fall holidays along with ham. Fish is the most expensive meat.

Fishing and hunting is more or less expensive depending upon how much you do it. If you buy the equipment and license, then do it once, then it is really expensive.

All in all, I probably eat for about $5 or less most days if I'm preparing and eating my own food at home.

Thanks for the insight @midwesterner And yes, beef mince = ground beef.

Another thing that gives me the *kitten* is you guys pay less than we do for the Lamb we export over there.

midwesterner85 wrote: »

Christine_72 wrote: »

I couldn't do it, but i also couldn't afford it! I don't know about the US, but meat is flippan expensive here in Aus!

Chicken Breast is around $12 per kg
Porterhouse steak $20 per kg if you're lucky.
Beef mince around $10 per kg

I've tried the "Budget" red meats, and lets just say i'd rather go vegetarian than eat that yuckness

It depends on what you eat and where you live. If I stick with beef only, the ground beef (I assume that is what you call "beef mince") ranges based on how much fat is mixed in. Higher fat generally is cheaper. Usually, I can get ground beef where I live for around $3 USD per lb., more or less, on sale. That seems to calculate out pretty close to what you are paying. I do look for sales and freeze it. For example, I bought a 10 lb. roll of 85/15 ground beef for $25 USD last week. I can split up that 10 # roll and eat for several days. I also find roasts and sometimes steaks for $3-$5 USD per lb. The more expensive cuts can range up to $10-$15 USD per lb., but I don't buy those. That's all if I stick to beef.

Pork, on the other hand, is very cheap here. There are often sales of various cuts of pork for $1-$2 per lb. This includes boneless loin, ground pork, sausage, bratwurst, pork butt roast, etc. Ham and bacon are generally more expensive because there is more demand for that.

Chicken here is also usually pretty cheap, depending upon the cut. Boneless/skinless breast is the most expensive. There is a 10 lb. bag of chicken hind quarters on sale at a local grocery store for $4.90 ($0.49 per lb.). Turkey is not much more expensive, and become really cheap around the fall holidays along with ham. Fish is the most expensive meat.

Fishing and hunting is more or less expensive depending upon how much you do it. If you buy the equipment and license, then do it once, then it is really expensive.

All in all, I probably eat for about $5 or less most days if I'm preparing and eating my own food at home.

I'm in western Canada, and our beef prices are in between. Lean ground beef is around $8.50/kg. My family and I go through about 2-5 kg of beef a week. If we have roasts it us often pork because it's cheaper. The club pack of chicken breasts I buy are about $10/kg.

@Stevencloser - that was the main thing he was trying to prove was wrong. I actually agree with you but he was trying to disprove that you needed carbs to do powerful stuff. Certainly, sprint rowing (that he does) qualifies as powerful stuff. So does powerlifting, etc., all of which he does all the time. Personally, I tried low carbs (not ultra low but low) and felt like garbage doing high level athletic training. That was his whole premise and a lot of folks bought into it. Whatever someone believes, it's harder to argue someone isn't doing as well as they could when they break a WR.

No he never eats carbs at all. Completely animal products (which, again, I personally find disgusting) but eggs, cheese and meat. That's it as far as I know.

MikePfirrman wrote: »

@Stevencloser - that was the main thing he was trying to prove was wrong. I actually agree with you but he was trying to disprove that you needed carbs to do powerful stuff. Certainly, sprint rowing (that he does) qualifies as powerful stuff. So does powerlifting, etc., all of which he does all the time. Personally, I tried low carbs (not ultra low but low) and felt like garbage doing high level athletic training. That was his whole premise and a lot of folks bought into it. Whatever someone believes, it's harder to argue someone isn't doing as well as they could when they break a WR.

No he never eats carbs at all. Completely animal products (which, again, I personally find disgusting) but eggs, cheese and meat. That's it as far as I know.

It appears that Shawn eats quite lean meats - over 50% protein - so it is possible that his level of ketosis is very mild.

Most carnivores don't seem to be focused on ketosis. It is more about avoiding foods that don't help their health or making weight loss and maintenance easier. TBH, I see very little ketone chasing in this group, and they seem less likely to speak negatively against carbs. Just my observation.

As to his performance, I believe he's improved his times for WR while carnivore. His glycogen stores are full (they don't empty out and stay empty).

I find it interesting how LOW his insulin is even though his BG is slightly elevated. It looks like he has excellent insulin sensitivity. It doesn't appear to affect his performance either.

Personally, for me, it all comes down to balance. Do I think that some people might benefit from ketosis as a reset of sorts? Yes, and I think there's some evidence of that. We all could benefit by eliminating simple carbs and sugar more than the standard Western Diet. But for me, the "deal breaker" on this kind of diet (my ethics aside and don't want to get into that whole debate) is I think they are just understanding how important that fiber is to the diet.

This is like a zero fiber diet? I suppose meat has some I guess. How that would effect your long term health is very unknown and I certainly wouldn't want to subject my body to that. Even people that point to the Inuit diet as all meat neglect to mention that they also eat berries and wild tubers/greens. They don't exist just on meat. Also, back when Shawn was posting up his diet, he'd mention grass fed then show pictures of standard supermarket meats. I'm not sure that industrial produced Western meat matches what the Intuit (or Gronk or whoever) ate.

A lot of microbiome experts point to the Hazda tribe in Africa as the ideal microbiome diversity (they have very little Western diseases). Part of the year, they eat wild meat or insects -- really diverse mix and part of the year, they eat tons of tubers and berries and plants. Again, diversity of diet. When they eat tubers, nearly 100g a year. There are people that test their gut bacteria that have followed the tribe around eating what they eat and drinking what they drink (sometimes not the cleanest of water either).

I guess my point is, no one has solved the riddle of what is best to eat. I'm skeptical of anyone claiming they have figured it out. Yes, getting rid of a lot of junk is good.