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Is bodybuilding bad for society, from a body positivity perspective?
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amusedmonkey wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »Not everyone has as their priority an aesthetic body. Maybe their career or family is. Should they not try to advance in their career because NOT EVERYONE can attain CEO status? Or should people not marry because some people can't find a partner?
Trying to push down people from their desire to see what their God-given potential is, (in whatever ethical arena) is really a SELFISH thing to do.
It would be selfish to ban bodybuilding as a sport, but not selfish for an individual to decide that their participation in the sport was a net negative for society. That would be selfless, IMO. The debate is how we each answer that individual ethical question.
In a similar vein, some women don't wear makeup for the exact same reason -- they don't want to perpetuate the physical ideals that bombard girls in magazines, and they'd rather show an alternative idea of beauty. That's their decision, and not something they're imposing on others. Selfless, not selfish.
Selfless - really? Not just a meaningless act to make themselves feel morally superior?
Or, it may be just their preference and people read into it more than they should. I never wear makeup. Reason: can't be arsed. Often times it's not a great sacrifice for the good of people at the altar of social justice, but people who care about an issue tend to see the world through their particular glasses.
But you aren't also going around saying you are purposely abstaining from makeup to show the world "an alternative idea of beauty." (Or maybe you are, I don't know you!)
My comment was not directed at you, but at OP who sees women without makeup and assumes they're fighting the fight, just like they assume everyone who does bodybuilding does it to conform to a perceived society ideal and should feel ashamed.
I assumed that - I just wanted to reiterate the point.
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Not at all. The point is whether we should endeavor to have society value what we can do more than precisely how you look. Power lifting vs. bodybuilding. Nobody ever said anything about embracing poor health and being sedentary.I haven't met a woman yet who thinks Chris Hemsworth is ugly in Thor.
The fact is genetically we are predisposed to see lean form in males as alpha/prime just like males see female wide hips and big busts as good mating partners. This is in our subconscious because it's been our percieved reality for hundreds of thousands of years. Over time these predispositions fade as ideals change but think of how many thousands of years the Homo sapiens have thought like that... a few generations of alternative thought isn't going to remove that hard wiring.
It often comes to what we see as good in mating partners, but what "good" is has changed dramatically over time in our culture, and is completely different in many other cultures.
So is the point that we should endeavor to have society embrace being fat, out of shape and sedentary as the ideal, so all those people don't get hurt feelz?
Even that is discriminatory, and makes people feel bad about themselves. There are people who, because of the way their body is made, will be able to lift a lot more than many who have been lifting for a long time.
Basketball players will be able to play better basketball with a height advantage.
Gymnasts who are short have an advantage over those who are tall.
This goes on and on.
You want to see what REAL body positivity is? Listen to this choreographer at the end of this video:
https://youtu.be/Zy2226V5NYk
The various people, races, and body types and abilities are a lesson in body positivity itself, but if you want to skip the dancing and get to the point, it's at 4:08.
Let me know what you guys think of it if you bother to watch it.
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IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »
Not at all. The point is whether we should endeavor to have society value what we can do more than precisely how you look. Power lifting vs. bodybuilding. Nobody ever said anything about embracing poor health and being sedentary.I haven't met a woman yet who thinks Chris Hemsworth is ugly in Thor.
The fact is genetically we are predisposed to see lean form in males as alpha/prime just like males see female wide hips and big busts as good mating partners. This is in our subconscious because it's been our percieved reality for hundreds of thousands of years. Over time these predispositions fade as ideals change but think of how many thousands of years the Homo sapiens have thought like that... a few generations of alternative thought isn't going to remove that hard wiring.
It often comes to what we see as good in mating partners, but what "good" is has changed dramatically over time in our culture, and is completely different in many other cultures.
So is the point that we should endeavor to have society embrace being fat, out of shape and sedentary as the ideal, so all those people don't get hurt feelz?
Even that is discriminatory, and makes people feel bad about themselves. There are people who, because of the way their body is made, will be able to lift a lot more than many who have been lifting for a long time.
Basketball players will be able to play better basketball with a height advantage.
Gymnasts who are short have an advantage over those who are tall.
This goes on and on.
You want to see what REAL body positivity is? Listen to this choreographer at the end of this video:
https://youtu.be/Zy2226V5NYk
The various people, races, and body types and abilities are a lesson in body positivity itself, but if you want to skip the dancing and get to the point, it's at 4:08.
Let me know what you guys think of it if you bother to watch it.
Her message is absolutely what we should be preaching and not this HAES crap!2 -
In the same way, I'd leave powerlifting out of this conversation -- because that's about function -- how much you can lift.
Sure. Because then people can obsess and feel inferior about how much they can squat, deadlift or bench press, instead of how their bodies look. Seems legit.5 -
And back to the fit shaming topic - if we want to talk about media trying to influence body issues, we need look no further than Planet Fitness' ad campaigns, where bodybuilders are caricatured, stereotyped and made fun of. Portrayed in almost every one of their ads as shallow, stupid, narcissistic "lunks".
I can only imagine the uproar and vitriol it would cause if a 'hardcore' gym chain made similar commercials with a bunch of tan, jacked, muscular trainers making fun of fat people and scrawny pencil necks.18 -
Yes, that was my point. There is nothing special about feeling insecure about one's looks (unless you have albinism and live in Tanzania). It's not worse than being insecure about anything else. Replacing one insecurity with another is not going to make the pain go away.5 -
IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »
Not at all. The point is whether we should endeavor to have society value what we can do more than precisely how you look. Power lifting vs. bodybuilding. Nobody ever said anything about embracing poor health and being sedentary.I haven't met a woman yet who thinks Chris Hemsworth is ugly in Thor.
The fact is genetically we are predisposed to see lean form in males as alpha/prime just like males see female wide hips and big busts as good mating partners. This is in our subconscious because it's been our percieved reality for hundreds of thousands of years. Over time these predispositions fade as ideals change but think of how many thousands of years the Homo sapiens have thought like that... a few generations of alternative thought isn't going to remove that hard wiring.
It often comes to what we see as good in mating partners, but what "good" is has changed dramatically over time in our culture, and is completely different in many other cultures.
So is the point that we should endeavor to have society embrace being fat, out of shape and sedentary as the ideal, so all those people don't get hurt feelz?
Even that is discriminatory, and makes people feel bad about themselves. There are people who, because of the way their body is made, will be able to lift a lot more than many who have been lifting for a long time.
Basketball players will be able to play better basketball with a height advantage.
Gymnasts who are short have an advantage over those who are tall.
This goes on and on.
You want to see what REAL body positivity is? Listen to this choreographer at the end of this video:
https://youtu.be/Zy2226V5NYk
The various people, races, and body types and abilities are a lesson in body positivity itself, but if you want to skip the dancing and get to the point, it's at 4:08.
Let me know what you guys think of it if you bother to watch it.
Her message is absolutely what we should be preaching and not this HAES crap!
I don't know much about HAES. I know I'm fitter than most people who weigh a lot less than I do.
Often obesity is the result of stress. Being obese causes more stress, as does the societal pressure. They shouldn't hate themselves because that causes more stress which contributes to obesity. Body positivity (at any size, even huge), is healthy. You may not love how big your gut is, but you gotta love that you are you, and you can improve you. Often hating oneself is a mental block to improving oneself.
The "Biggest Loser" model, where they mentally tear people down to get them to change out of hatred of their own bodies is, to me, abusive, and not productive for long term change for many people.
Some people need positive encouragement to thrive.
Seriously, though, I really, really have to stop posting now, even though this is (clearly) a passionate subject (almost as much as Crossfit and Planet Fitness). I have bodybuilding to go do!
NOTE: PF, get your act together and get some barbells in there. Even spartan gyms have barbells. Sheesh. Way to discriminate against bodybuilders, aka, the people you judge in your non-judgement zone.
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cmriverside wrote: »Here's an idea.
Stop watching so much TV.
Stop buying Cosmo.
Stop believing that you have to live in fear and -
Comparison is the thief of joy.
If only it were that easy... ha
I do none of those things. But chocking every problem in life up to individual virtue is such a cop out. Not everything is as easy for them as it is for you. Circumstances are different.11 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »
Yes, that was my point. There is nothing special about feeling insecure about one's looks (unless you have albinism and live in Tanzania). It's not worse than being insecure about anything else. Replacing one insecurity with another is not going to make the pain go away.
Yep. When I get into that headspace, there are all sorts of things I might feel insecure about - how I look, how I sound, what I say, my relationship status, my income, my taste in clothes, my social life, how I spend my time. One of those isn't any better or worse than any other. And all of them come from how I perceive what others might think about me. Seeing only people who look like me in the media or out in the world would not change that one bit, it's about what's going on in my head.
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cmriverside wrote: »Here's an idea.
Stop watching so much TV.
Stop buying Cosmo.
Stop believing that you have to live in fear and -
Comparison is the thief of joy.
If only it were that easy... ha
I do none of those things. But chocking every problem in life up to individual virtue is such a cop out. Not everything is as easy for them as it is for you. Circumstances are different.
Blaming everything on society is a cop out9 -
cmriverside wrote: »Here's an idea.
Stop watching so much TV.
Stop buying Cosmo.
Stop believing that you have to live in fear and -
Comparison is the thief of joy.
If only it were that easy... ha
I do none of those things. But chocking every problem in life up to individual virtue is such a cop out. Not everything is as easy for them as it is for you. Circumstances are different.
You know nothing about me and what I have had to overcome. That's dismissive.
"Individual virtue." What does that even mean?7 -
cmriverside wrote: »Here's an idea.
Stop watching so much TV.
Stop buying Cosmo.
Stop believing that you have to live in fear and -
Comparison is the thief of joy.
If only it were that easy... ha
I do none of those things. But chocking every problem in life up to individual virtue is such a cop out. Not everything is as easy for them as it is for you. Circumstances are different.
Wow, that's making a pretty entitled assumption.8 -
I thought the point of body positivity was to accept bodies however they are.
A person who is overweight has become that way, most likely, through their own choices. For me, I am overweight because I overeat and don't exercise enough.
A bodybuilder has the body they have because of their choices.
If we are going to be truly body positive we should love the overweight body as much as the bodybuilder body.
This reminds me of when the way people build big women up is to say that REAL women have curves. Insinuating that skinny women are somehow not real women. We don't have to tear others down to build ourselves up.
I don't think bodybuilding is bad for society or body positivity. I think if seeing someone with abs and a perfectly sculpted chest makes you doubt yourself then you're a person who is weak and needs therapy.
People love all body shapes. I, personally, don't like sculpted, muscled bodies. My husband is a flab-master and I ADORE his body. I think it's beautiful and sexy and perfect. Doesn't matter how much society tells me that muscles are sexy, to me they just aren't. Does that mean I think muscles are ugly? No. They just don't 'do it for me'.
And that's okay.
THAT'S the point of body positivity.
'It's not for me... but that's okay."14 -
cmriverside wrote: »Here's an idea.
Stop watching so much TV.
Stop buying Cosmo.
Stop believing that you have to live in fear and -
Comparison is the thief of joy.
If only it were that easy... ha
I do none of those things. But chocking every problem in life up to individual virtue is such a cop out. Not everything is as easy for them as it is for you. Circumstances are different.
What dos "individual virtue" mean? I think it was mentioned to stop doing those things because obviously you're getting the notion of an ideal body somewhere...typically that would be media...though I'm not sure what media you would be consuming to think that a bodybuilder's physique is the societal ideal...1 -
cmriverside wrote: »Here's an idea.
Stop watching so much TV.
Stop buying Cosmo.
Stop believing that you have to live in fear and -
Comparison is the thief of joy.
If only it were that easy... ha
I do none of those things. But chocking every problem in life up to individual virtue is such a cop out. Not everything is as easy for them as it is for you. Circumstances are different.
Aren't you doing the same thing? You're diagnosing selfishness in those who choose to bodybuild and selflessness in those who decide not to. You're asking the first group to live up to your definition of virtue to solve what you understand the problem to be.11 -
Not at all. Just questioning whether people should go to the gym to get fit and strong, or to look good. I know there's a lot of overlap between those two things, but bodybuilding indexes on looking good.IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »Not everyone has as their priority an aesthetic body. Maybe their career or family is. Should they not try to advance in their career because NOT EVERYONE can attain CEO status? Or should people not marry because some people can't find a partner?
Trying to push down people from their desire to see what their God-given potential is, (in whatever ethical arena) is really a SELFISH thing to do.
It would be selfish to ban bodybuilding as a sport, but not selfish for an individual to decide that their participation in the sport was a net negative for society. That would be selfless, IMO. The debate is how we each answer that individual ethical question.
Wait, whut???
Are you actually arguing that people should let themselves get fat and unfit to spare the feelings of the people around them???
Why should people's motives matter? This is like all the posts where OP asks for help losing vanity weight, and someone always posts a judgy response about how that's not a good motive for weight loss. Do you think that people should only lose weight if it's based on health objectives, because losing vanity weight could make people who are having trouble getting to the top of a healthy weight feel bad?
I've worked hard with my diet to get my body into a (low) healthy weight range. I've worked hard in the gym and on the road to get strong, visible muscles. Like others here, I look (and feel) younger than I am (67). Everything I do beyond adequate nutrition and movement to maintain health is purely for vanity. Do you think I'm harming society by striving for a body and health goal that others in my age group can't or choose not to persue?
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Not at all. Just questioning whether people should go to the gym to get fit and strong, or to look good. I know there's a lot of overlap between those two things, but bodybuilding indexes on looking good.IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »Not everyone has as their priority an aesthetic body. Maybe their career or family is. Should they not try to advance in their career because NOT EVERYONE can attain CEO status? Or should people not marry because some people can't find a partner?
Trying to push down people from their desire to see what their God-given potential is, (in whatever ethical arena) is really a SELFISH thing to do.
It would be selfish to ban bodybuilding as a sport, but not selfish for an individual to decide that their participation in the sport was a net negative for society. That would be selfless, IMO. The debate is how we each answer that individual ethical question.
Wait, whut???
Are you actually arguing that people should let themselves get fat and unfit to spare the feelings of the people around them???
Why should people's motives matter? This is like all the posts where OP asks for help losing vanity weight, and someone always posts a judgy response about how that's not a good motive for weight loss. Do you think that people should only lose weight if it's based on health objectives, because losing vanity weight could make people who are having trouble getting to the top of a healthy weight feel bad?
I've worked hard with my diet to get my body into a (low) healthy weight range. I've worked hard in the gym and on the road to get strong, visible muscles. Like others here, I look (and feel) younger than I am (67). Everything I do beyond adequate nutrition and movement to maintain health is purely for vanity. Do you think I'm harming society by striving for a body and health goal that others in my age group can't or choose not to persue?
I can't think of a single accomplishment that every single person on earth can reasonably achieve. So the answer is, are we going to race to the bottom or are we going to accept that people are different?9 -
I can't help but think this is more a personal issue for you than a philosophical debate you were having with someone?
You said in your OP that you weren't sure what to think and were curious what we thought, but you seem pretty darn sure to me and very quick to just tell everyone we're wrong.
Whether you want to believe it or not, there are many in this thread who struggled/struggle with body image, who have been obese, unhealthy, weak. Some have transformed themselves, some are still working on it. All for slightly different reasons and motives, I'd guess. We are all speaking from experience.18 -
janejellyroll wrote: »
Not at all. Just questioning whether people should go to the gym to get fit and strong, or to look good. I know there's a lot of overlap between those two things, but bodybuilding indexes on looking good.IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »Not everyone has as their priority an aesthetic body. Maybe their career or family is. Should they not try to advance in their career because NOT EVERYONE can attain CEO status? Or should people not marry because some people can't find a partner?
Trying to push down people from their desire to see what their God-given potential is, (in whatever ethical arena) is really a SELFISH thing to do.
It would be selfish to ban bodybuilding as a sport, but not selfish for an individual to decide that their participation in the sport was a net negative for society. That would be selfless, IMO. The debate is how we each answer that individual ethical question.
Wait, whut???
Are you actually arguing that people should let themselves get fat and unfit to spare the feelings of the people around them???
Why should people's motives matter? This is like all the posts where OP asks for help losing vanity weight, and someone always posts a judgy response about how that's not a good motive for weight loss. Do you think that people should only lose weight if it's based on health objectives, because losing vanity weight could make people who are having trouble getting to the top of a healthy weight feel bad?
I've worked hard with my diet to get my body into a (low) healthy weight range. I've worked hard in the gym and on the road to get strong, visible muscles. Like others here, I look (and feel) younger than I am (67). Everything I do beyond adequate nutrition and movement to maintain health is purely for vanity. Do you think I'm harming society by striving for a body and health goal that others in my age group can't or choose not to persue?
I can't think of a single accomplishment that every single person on earth can reasonably achieve. So the answer is, are we going to race to the bottom or are we going to accept that people are different?
Exactly!1 -
IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »Where is the logic? There is none. It is HYPOCRISY.
Body positivity premise: you should feel good about your body no matter your size.
Your argument: you should only feel good about your body if it is average.
You're not hearing me at all and arguing against a straw man.
I'm comparing powerlifting/strength training to bodybuilding. Unless you think anyone who doesn't bodybuild is "average." Neither the bodybuilder nor the powerlifter is average. Neither should feel bad about their body. The point I'm exploring is whether it is good for society and our collective idea of body image ideals to pursue bodybuilding in the first place.6
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