The psychology of needing to eat until stuffed - a discussion
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kommodevaran wrote: »
I think there is some circular reasoning going on, "food will fix this, but the problem is overwhelming, so I need lots of food". Because I'm not really able to short circuit that argument, and truly convince myself that "hunger is not the problem, so food is not the solution". There is also a massive exposure to food cues - food is everywhere, and food is made into so many shapes and colors that resemble everyday non-food objects, it's hard to not be reminded of the taste and mouthfeel. I don't overeat massively/often anymore, but I have urges often because my rational mind is in conflict with my arational mind. To keep this conflict from escalating, it's important that I'm well fed and rested and manage stress.kommodevaran wrote: »I want to expand on my reply. I don't usually think of myself as an emotional eater, but of course I'm too. And I have learned to associate food with many things - situations, emotions, times and places, smell, sound, textures, shapes and colors. And learned to expect many things from food, many things that food can't do - food has no other purposes besides "taste good" and "keep me alive" - which certainly isn't unimportant. But there is a need for balance, and I would need a lot of food to accomplish what my subconscious mind belives it should do for me!
Care to go further with that?
Gotcha. Thank you.0 -
Following out of interest as this is something I've always wondered about because I've never really been one to stuff myself full...it can happen at holidays and such, but I always feel so physically unwell afterwards that I've always wondered how or why people would do that repeatedly.5
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Psych major here, working on my PhD.
It's both
The feeling of "fullness" can be mentally addictive, just like gambling and cell phones. Withdrawal from something that is psychologically addictive can have severe biological responses including producing severe anxiety responses and feelings of guilt. Even though the addiction is not physiological, the body responds in the same manner.
Eating till fullness is also a learned behavior. Often since early childhood, including being rewarded with "eating everything on your plate". Parents often reward children who finish everything with everything from dessert to praise, and punish them for failing to eat everything. Punishments include everything from withholding positive attention to being denied activities "You're not allowed to go play until you finish your dinner".14 -
kommodevaran wrote: »
I think there is some circular reasoning going on, "food will fix this, but the problem is overwhelming, so I need lots of food". Because I'm not really able to short circuit that argument, and truly convince myself that "hunger is not the problem, so food is not the solution". There is also a massive exposure to food cues - food is everywhere, and food is made into so many shapes and colors that resemble everyday non-food objects, it's hard to not be reminded of the taste and mouthfeel. I don't overeat massively/often anymore, but I have urges often because my rational mind is in conflict with my arational mind. To keep this conflict from escalating, it's important that I'm well fed and rested and manage stress.kommodevaran wrote: »I want to expand on my reply. I don't usually think of myself as an emotional eater, but of course I'm too. And I have learned to associate food with many things - situations, emotions, times and places, smell, sound, textures, shapes and colors. And learned to expect many things from food, many things that food can't do - food has no other purposes besides "taste good" and "keep me alive" - which certainly isn't unimportant. But there is a need for balance, and I would need a lot of food to accomplish what my subconscious mind belives it should do for me!
Care to go further with that?
This is interesting. Whenever I feel physically "off" in any way - a headache, congested, fatigued, sore, feverish, lack of focus - my first instinct is "Maybe I'm hungry! Let's eat something." probably because I do often get a headache when I'm legit hungry. And if it doesn't work right away, I'll often just keep eating. Not necessarily to the point of being uncomfortable, but certainly more food than I would have an actual appetite for. I don't do this for emotional situations, like I don't eat when I'm depressed or scared, but I do for physical issues. I guess a form of emotional eating at least!5 -
Sometimes I worry about why I don't stay full...like today for lunch I had an egg salad sandwich on high fiber bread, two cups of soup, two yogurt, fruit, a handful of potato chips and an Atkins bar and less than two hours later I can honestly say I could eat some more. Seriously, some people eat half of that and it sustains them until dinner but not me:( I could honestly sit here at my desk and easily eat chips and chocolate right now.
Honestly sometimes only really high fat heavy food seems to sustain me for hours..i.e. a Big Mac and large fries.2 -
The majority of these habits are developed in early childhood, so this feels "normal" later in life. At early adulthood your genetics begin to have greater influence as opposed to environment.
The habits you develop follow a pattern. Hormones also follow this pattern. Any shifts from this pattern end up in temporary chaos while your body attempts to restore order. As hormones are free cycling if you are overweight this further compounds the issue and tends toward chaos.
It is very much rooted in psychology, but we are biological, so everything is connected. Your chances of restoring order increase if you initiate positive changes on multiple root causes.
I don't disagree. I was hoping that this thread might give me some insight on what angles from which ot attack the problems.
What worked for me was that the fullness I sought was not compatible with my working out. I went back to the habits taught in the military and ate lighter meals and stopped the learned behavior of cleaning my plate. If I didn't do this I ended up vomiting during PRT cycling.
I also drink 16 oz of water ~30 mins to meal times and this helps with satiation and I tend to not eat as much and get fuller faster.3 -
mhetzel1983 wrote: »Intuitive Eating is a good book that details the many reasons why people overeat. It's very interesting. They mention many of the reasons stated in this thread. For me, it was emotional eating and response to deprivation. But there are lots of reasons people eat to that level of fullness.
I'll also mention the Beck Diet Solution, which is a cognitive-behavioral approach to dealing with the behavioral aspects of weight loss and maintenance. There's also Mindful Eating, which is similar to Intuitive Eating. Some links to each of these approaches for the OP:
http://diet.beckinstitute.org/
https://www.intuitiveeating.org/
https://www.mindful.org/6-ways-practice-mindful-eating/
A comparison of intuitive and mindful eating:
https://www.fitday.com/fitness-articles/nutrition/whats-the-difference-between-mindful-eating-and-intuitive-eating.html
Evelyn Tribole, who coauthored Intuitive eating, also has some great cookbooks that show you how to take a favorite comfort food and reduce the calories.3 -
Does it have to be psychological? Can't it just be a personal preference? I like the feeling of being a little over-stuffed. Feeling not hungry after a meal is fine, but it's not as satisfying as feeling full. I manage my need to feel stuffed by eating only two meals per day. That way I have lots of calories to spend on those two meals.3
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I find it interesting too, so I may very well be rambling, but...kommodevaran wrote: »
I think there is some circular reasoning going on, "food will fix this, but the problem is overwhelming, so I need lots of food". Because I'm not really able to short circuit that argument, and truly convince myself that "hunger is not the problem, so food is not the solution". There is also a massive exposure to food cues - food is everywhere, and food is made into so many shapes and colors that resemble everyday non-food objects, it's hard to not be reminded of the taste and mouthfeel. I don't overeat massively/often anymore, but I have urges often because my rational mind is in conflict with my arational mind. To keep this conflict from escalating, it's important that I'm well fed and rested and manage stress.kommodevaran wrote: »I want to expand on my reply. I don't usually think of myself as an emotional eater, but of course I'm too. And I have learned to associate food with many things - situations, emotions, times and places, smell, sound, textures, shapes and colors. And learned to expect many things from food, many things that food can't do - food has no other purposes besides "taste good" and "keep me alive" - which certainly isn't unimportant. But there is a need for balance, and I would need a lot of food to accomplish what my subconscious mind belives it should do for me!
Care to go further with that?
This is interesting. Whenever I feel physically "off" in any way - a headache, congested, fatigued, sore, feverish, lack of focus - my first instinct is "Maybe I'm hungry! Let's eat something." probably because I do often get a headache when I'm legit hungry. And if it doesn't work right away, I'll often just keep eating. Not necessarily to the point of being uncomfortable, but certainly more food than I would have an actual appetite for. I don't do this for emotional situations, like I don't eat when I'm depressed or scared, but I do for physical issues. I guess a form of emotional eating at least!
We generally have very safe and easy and predictable lives nowadays, and we're not "designed" for that - so up pops "bucket lists" and "buy these shoes this fall" and "things to see when you're in Botswana" - the media is now telling us what we should be "hunting" for. We also have alarm systems that go off regularly. Most of the times, it's a false alarm. I can wake up in the middle of the night, possibly just by random sound, so when I search, I find no threats, I could just go back to sleep - but then my mind wanders instead - did I make a fool of myself today, is that a toothache, could I have cancer? A quiet evening, my mind is at ease, I don't want anything, I don't need anything, but I'm so used to think that I am or should be "after" something, anything, that the first time I felt that, I wondered if I was depressed!? And my go-to for "something missing", that's right, that's food: "OK, I can always find something to eat!"9 -
Interestingly enough, it's happening right now.
I just had some left-over chicken parm that I brought to work for lunch. It was a small but reasonable portion. It was pretty good, but not OMG good. But even so, I find myself wishing I had 6 more. History tells me it's probably a matter of time before I give in and find something else to eat.
Instead, I'm hoping to hold out for 20 more minutes until I can leave work. At least that will take my attention away from wanting more food.5 -
kommodevaran wrote: »
I find it interesting too, so I may very well be rambling, but...kommodevaran wrote: »
I think there is some circular reasoning going on, "food will fix this, but the problem is overwhelming, so I need lots of food". Because I'm not really able to short circuit that argument, and truly convince myself that "hunger is not the problem, so food is not the solution". There is also a massive exposure to food cues - food is everywhere, and food is made into so many shapes and colors that resemble everyday non-food objects, it's hard to not be reminded of the taste and mouthfeel. I don't overeat massively/often anymore, but I have urges often because my rational mind is in conflict with my arational mind. To keep this conflict from escalating, it's important that I'm well fed and rested and manage stress.kommodevaran wrote: »I want to expand on my reply. I don't usually think of myself as an emotional eater, but of course I'm too. And I have learned to associate food with many things - situations, emotions, times and places, smell, sound, textures, shapes and colors. And learned to expect many things from food, many things that food can't do - food has no other purposes besides "taste good" and "keep me alive" - which certainly isn't unimportant. But there is a need for balance, and I would need a lot of food to accomplish what my subconscious mind belives it should do for me!
Care to go further with that?
This is interesting. Whenever I feel physically "off" in any way - a headache, congested, fatigued, sore, feverish, lack of focus - my first instinct is "Maybe I'm hungry! Let's eat something." probably because I do often get a headache when I'm legit hungry. And if it doesn't work right away, I'll often just keep eating. Not necessarily to the point of being uncomfortable, but certainly more food than I would have an actual appetite for. I don't do this for emotional situations, like I don't eat when I'm depressed or scared, but I do for physical issues. I guess a form of emotional eating at least!
We generally have very safe and easy and predictable lives nowadays, and we're not "designed" for that - so up pops "bucket lists" and "buy these shoes this fall" and "things to see when you're in Botswana" - the media is now telling us what we should be "hunting" for. We also have alarm systems that go off regularly. Most of the times, it's a false alarm. I can wake up in the middle of the night, possibly just by random sound, so when I search, I find no threats, I could just go back to sleep - but then my mind wanders instead - did I make a fool of myself today, is that a toothache, could I have cancer? A quiet evening, my mind is at ease, I don't want anything, I don't need anything, but I'm so used to think that I am or should be "after" something, anything, that the first time I felt that, I wondered if I was depressed!? And my go-to for "something missing", that's right, that's food: "OK, I can always find something to eat!"
I find this really interesting... the whole idea that we aren't evolving fast enough to suit our current environment.5 -
IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »Maybe you are eating hyperpalatable foods?
They literally figured out that really sweet foods will taste too sweet after a few bites, and really salty items taste too salty after a short while.
So they found a point where the fat, salt and sugar ratio was just so that you keep eating them past your satiation point (think potato chips and cookies), what food scientists call the "bliss point." That's why you have sugar and salt in things you wouldn't think would be needed in either (salt in candy, sugar in tomato sauce).
If you notice you only gorge on certain TYPES of foods, that might be the issue.
For me, an example is potatoes. I can eat one baked potato and not want any more. I don't need to use portion control on baked potatoes. But I've had to intentionally portion control chips and fries, until I naturally eat less of these than before.
Worse is if I homecook scallopped potatoes (no cream, just thin sliced stewed potatoes and seasonings), it's like a bottomless appetite for it. I can go three potatoes and still want more. My scallopped potatoes recipe has a bliss point that allows me to eat far larger quanties than I would otherwise. Portion control doesn't "work." I just end up eating as much as is available.
Best wishes on figuring out the source of your eating past fullness and overcoming it!
Is that from "Salt, Sugar, Fat"? Fascinating book!
When I eat 400-500 calories of chicken, broccoli, and potato, or Thai Beef salad, I am full, but not overstuffed, and have no urge to eat more.
When I have hyper-palatable foods like pizza, I want to eat and eat and eat. It's a real challenge to not. Having a large salad with pizza helps.6 -
Interestingly enough, it's happening right now.
I just had some left-over chicken parm that I brought to work for lunch. It was a small but reasonable portion. It was pretty good, but not OMG good. But even so, I find myself wishing I had 6 more. History tells me it's probably a matter of time before I give in and find something else to eat.
Instead, I'm hoping to hold out for 20 more minutes until I can leave work. At least that will take my attention away from wanting more food.
Dude! 20 minutes. Magic number!
Didja make it?1 -
The reality of having an abundance of cheap food around us everywhere we go is still a new thing in human history. Eating 'all of it' was a good strategy when 'it' was in short supply. Now, for most of the world, there is an abundance of food available. All of us have to learn to self-regulate our consumption. Some of us do that better and earlier in life than others.
Is this a psychological issue? I don't think so. Mental, yes, because we have to make the executive decision to stop while food remains available. There are psychological issues that can manifest in an individual's taking or refusing food. I'm not addressing those issues. I'm simply pointing out that the problem of overeating to the point of discomfort is probably a human feature that is controllable.6 -
kshama2001 wrote: »IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »Maybe you are eating hyperpalatable foods?
They literally figured out that really sweet foods will taste too sweet after a few bites, and really salty items taste too salty after a short while.
So they found a point where the fat, salt and sugar ratio was just so that you keep eating them past your satiation point (think potato chips and cookies), what food scientists call the "bliss point." That's why you have sugar and salt in things you wouldn't think would be needed in either (salt in candy, sugar in tomato sauce).
If you notice you only gorge on certain TYPES of foods, that might be the issue.
For me, an example is potatoes. I can eat one baked potato and not want any more. I don't need to use portion control on baked potatoes. But I've had to intentionally portion control chips and fries, until I naturally eat less of these than before.
Worse is if I homecook scallopped potatoes (no cream, just thin sliced stewed potatoes and seasonings), it's like a bottomless appetite for it. I can go three potatoes and still want more. My scallopped potatoes recipe has a bliss point that allows me to eat far larger quanties than I would otherwise. Portion control doesn't "work." I just end up eating as much as is available.
Best wishes on figuring out the source of your eating past fullness and overcoming it!
Is that from "Salt, Sugar, Fat"? Fascinating book!
When I eat 400-500 calories of chicken, broccoli, and potato, or Thai Beef salad, I am full, but not overstuffed, and have no urge to eat more.
When I have hyper-palatable foods like pizza, I want to eat and eat and eat. It's a real challenge to not. Having a large salad with pizza helps.
Good book btw....0 -
Wow
I am sitting here reading this thread as I am contemplating what to stuff my mouth with to get the full feeling that I never reach. It looks like I am constantly looking for that high but not getting it. I can stick to a food plan for a while but then something snaps and I can't stop eating. Sometimes it takes me over a week to get back to eating a little more normal. One thing I have learned is that a lot of it depends on where I am in my head7 -
I'm wondering what you mean by a food plan? Is it you deciding what to eat in advance, or someone else's idea of what you should eat?Wow
I am sitting here reading this thread as I am contemplating what to stuff my mouth with to get the full feeling that I never reach. It looks like I am constantly looking for that high but not getting it. I can stick to a food plan for a while but then something snaps and I can't stop eating. Sometimes it takes me over a week to get back to eating a little more normal. One thing I have learned is that a lot of it depends on where I am in my head0 -
I'm using the term hyper-palatable foods less and less, but I do have the idea in the back of my head that food should taste good, but not too good - it helps. I have found that I need to work for my food, I want to be hungry enough to bother with preparation and chewing. My appetite is actually a good guide - I know that when I'm ready for just about any food, I'm hungry, whereas not really in mood for anything but candy or chips, but strongly so, I'm not hungry, I just want "something"; and as I am well nourished and warm and safe, figuring out what that "something" is, is hard. Most days I eat normal, ordinary foods for most or all meals. I deliberately reserve treat foods for special occasions, which doesn't have to be more special than "Saturday" - finding the balance here is so important and quite difficult; when I grew up, treats were "bad", according to my mother, who never said so explicitly, but implied that treats would ruin my health, and absolute abstaining was commendable.kshama2001 wrote: »IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »Maybe you are eating hyperpalatable foods?
They literally figured out that really sweet foods will taste too sweet after a few bites, and really salty items taste too salty after a short while.
So they found a point where the fat, salt and sugar ratio was just so that you keep eating them past your satiation point (think potato chips and cookies), what food scientists call the "bliss point." That's why you have sugar and salt in things you wouldn't think would be needed in either (salt in candy, sugar in tomato sauce).
If you notice you only gorge on certain TYPES of foods, that might be the issue.
For me, an example is potatoes. I can eat one baked potato and not want any more. I don't need to use portion control on baked potatoes. But I've had to intentionally portion control chips and fries, until I naturally eat less of these than before.
Worse is if I homecook scallopped potatoes (no cream, just thin sliced stewed potatoes and seasonings), it's like a bottomless appetite for it. I can go three potatoes and still want more. My scallopped potatoes recipe has a bliss point that allows me to eat far larger quanties than I would otherwise. Portion control doesn't "work." I just end up eating as much as is available.
Best wishes on figuring out the source of your eating past fullness and overcoming it!
Is that from "Salt, Sugar, Fat"? Fascinating book!
When I eat 400-500 calories of chicken, broccoli, and potato, or Thai Beef salad, I am full, but not overstuffed, and have no urge to eat more.
When I have hyper-palatable foods like pizza, I want to eat and eat and eat. It's a real challenge to not. Having a large salad with pizza helps.5 -
I think this is important, it's important that we don't just assume we're all nut cases, but see how forces in our society work and the conflicts that come up when different parties have different interests. A human doesn't have many needs, but we can be convinced that our needs and wants are endless. I have been working for years with adjusting my thoughts and feelings around proper portions - the portioning in itself is easy, but internalizing it, this really is enough, is hard. Lately I have adjusted my shopping routines too, to stop filling my house with unnecessary food, but I had failed to adjust my thoughts and feelings around buying (and not buying) stuff. I have to do that now.JeromeBarry1 wrote: »The reality of having an abundance of cheap food around us everywhere we go is still a new thing in human history. Eating 'all of it' was a good strategy when 'it' was in short supply. Now, for most of the world, there is an abundance of food available. All of us have to learn to self-regulate our consumption. Some of us do that better and earlier in life than others.
Is this a psychological issue? I don't think so. Mental, yes, because we have to make the executive decision to stop while food remains available. There are psychological issues that can manifest in an individual's taking or refusing food. I'm not addressing those issues. I'm simply pointing out that the problem of overeating to the point of discomfort is probably a human feature that is controllable.8
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