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"Awards" Rant
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Aaron_K123 wrote: »Charlene____ wrote: »So what type of rewards do you find not ridiculous? Should a marathoner not earn a medal for completing a race? Should the winner not receive a medal for winning a race? I am a normal functioning adult (who actually woke up after 9 this morning since I don’t have to work) who is motivated by seeing my daily streak in MFP, the medals I have won by winning my age groups in all distances of running hanging on my belt bar in my closet, and other such things.
I guess I really don’t care about what motivates others. If getting a sticker helps someone, great. I personally think the problem arises when there is no reward and that person has been conditioned to ONLY succeed for a reward and not because of self-gratification, survival, necessity, personal responsibility, etc.
Running a marathon is an accomplishment, getting out of bed is not. If we start treating getting out of bed as an accomplishment it dilutes what "accomplishment" means. It is kind of like handing trophies out to everyone because you want everyone to feel good...all it ends up doing is making trophies pointless. It is more insidious than that though, if people are conditioned to expect a reward for every little thing then they will get annoyed if they don't get a reward for doing even the most basic of things and will start to avoid basic things they don't get rewarded for.
We shouldn't expect rewards, that defeats the point of a reward.
Speak for yourself. During the times I’ve struggled with depression, getting out of bed has absolutely been an accomplishment.
And being rewarded for every little thing is actually a fairly fundamental life process. Why do you think food and sex are pleasurable, for example...?
As for avoiding basic things we don’t get rewarded for - yes, we kind of do that anyway. I am a champion avoider of housework, for example. Maybe it would be in some way morally superior for me to do the housework for the housework’s sake rather than because I can have a cup of my really good tea afterwards; but I’m willing to sacrifice moral superiority in exchange for actually having a clean house.
I've struggled with depression as well....doesn't mean we deserve a reward for doing basic things. I am capable of more than getting out of bed, I'm not going to consider that to be the bar for a reward regardless of psychological state.8 -
There seem to be two camps developing in this thread based on a different perception of the world....it is rather interesting.
If people are willing to respond to a hypothetical I'd be curious how these two camps divide on this example:
This year the little league season had a trophy for the one team that won the finals. Some people were concerned that this made a lot of people feel rather bad so it was decided that next year any team that participated in the season would be awarded a trophy at the end. Do you think this decision will end up encouraging more people to play or do you think that this decision will end up removing a key aspect that pushes people to compete and to excel...or do you think it will make no difference at all?
Second is the existence of "participation trophies" a recent cultural phenomena or is it something that has always been done?2 -
Everybody has different goals in life and every single person struggles with different things. I for one have a weakness when it comes to soda. I like Diet Coke with pizza and Chinese food, wouldn't really eat those items if I had to drink water. And frankly, I just like having a soda from time to time with some chips or pretzels. So when I give up soda for January, it's a REAL STRUGGLE for me. So if I bought a box of shiny gold stars to mark each soda-free day on the calendar, why should that matter TO YOU? Someone else wouldn't even bat an eye at giving up soda for a year, much less a month. Similarly, someone running a 10 minute mile might be a huge accomplishment for them; for me, I'm ticked if I run a mile that slow. I guess I just figure that if we are trying to better ourselves, whether it's by collecting stickers, badges, virtual or real rewards or not, losing weight, gaining fitness and/or strength, sleeping better, being a better worker/Mom/Dad/student/person, who cares?3
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Aaron_K123 wrote: »There seem to be two camps developing in this thread based on a different perception of the world....it is rather interesting.
If people are willing to respond to a hypothetical I'd be curious how these two camps divide on this example:
This year the little league season had a trophy for the one team that won the finals. Some people were concerned that this made a lot of people feel rather bad so it was decided that next year any team that participated in the season would be awarded a trophy at the end. Do you think this decision will end up encouraging more people to play or do you think that this decision will end up removing a key aspect that pushes people to compete and to excel...or do you think it will make no difference at all?
Second is the existence of "participation trophies" a recent cultural phenomena or is it something that has always been done?
Speaking as one of the resident pretty-old people at 62, participation trophies are a newer thing, at least in my neck of the woods. Since my childhood, competition has been de-emphasized, and rewards for superior performance de-emphasized somewhat also, for children.
I don't have a strong feeling either way about your little league question.
I think there's some social sci research suggesting that, among children, encouraging/rewarding perseverance and hard work (vs. pure excellence of result irrespective of effort/application) has some long-term payoff, but (1) I have no cites, and (2) it seems tangent to the alternatives in your scenario.
All of that said, participation trophies kinda make me eye roll, but I'm aware that that's just because I'm an ossified old curmudgeon. Hrumph!
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Aaron_K123 wrote: »There seem to be two camps developing in this thread based on a different perception of the world....it is rather interesting.
If people are willing to respond to a hypothetical I'd be curious how these two camps divide on this example:
This year the little league season had a trophy for the one team that won the finals. Some people were concerned that this made a lot of people feel rather bad so it was decided that next year any team that participated in the season would be awarded a trophy at the end. Do you think this decision will end up encouraging more people to play or do you think that this decision will end up removing a key aspect that pushes people to compete and to excel...or do you think it will make no difference at all?
Second is the existence of "participation trophies" a recent cultural phenomena or is it something that has always been done?
I don't believe a "winner" should be awarded the same as a participant. However, the kid that played, showed up to practice when it was hot or cold, rainy, and still tried to learn the sport should receive something- a team photo perhaps, or his jersey, etc (I don't have kids so I don't know what's important to them). But no, I don't believe in awarding participation "trophies" per se. I played tennis in high school- I was first singles from 8th grade to my senior year. I was the team's best player, but I also played the hardest players in the league, some of whom had tennis courts in the backyards, private coaches, and no other extracurricular activities. As a result, my personal record was not as good as our team's record over the five years I played on it- I also was involved in other sports and activities and worked throughout the school year. But the few years that the team still won our league championships, I still considered myself a "winner" despite probably having a 6-6 record when the team had a 10-2 record.2 -
I hate participation trophies for one simple reason, and it has nothing to do with any grand ideas. I remember this one event as a kid where they gave participation medals. I got one. Kids aren't stupid and they know that it's not the same as a winner's medal. It felt condescending and I hated it. It didn't encourage me to continue pursuing that activity, but at the same time, it didn't discourage me. I was just mad at that particular event.
This, on the other hand, is different. You aren't entering a competition against others, you choose to do something which may or may not result in a badge or a reward (depending on the design of the app). It's more like getting a mug or a pen at an event than getting a trophy.4 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »This sort of attitude is easy to laugh at but is actually really detrimental to society. That we should applaud ourselves or others for the most basic responsibilities of adulthood. Seems like at some point society shifted in a way where "difficult" became synonymous with "bad" and "work" was something you should try to stop doing as soon as you could. The idea that you work just as long as until you have enough to retire and not run out of money by the time you die is a depressingly self-centered view of life. What happened to work for works sake and/or work for the sake of society as a whole.
Nothing.
Can you point to a period in history where that was a widespread reason why people worked? I’ll wait.
I would say any era in which volunteer work is a significant feature would demonstrate work for the sake of the work itself (because one tends to be passionate about the selected work) and work for the greater good of society. I volunteer with a variety of organizations ranging from history and architecture to gardening and Scouting and put in quite a bit of hard work for the social good: after my day job, on the weekends and even taking vacation days; my dad has volunteered as a forensic chemist with The Innocence Project and does hazmat training for firefighters; tracing back through history you could look at both mendicant friars and the kinds of folks who honestly subscribed to Noblesse Oblige as doing good work for the sake of good work to better society.
Volunteering is a reflection of the pure joy of working.1 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »I hate participation trophies for one simple reason, and it has nothing to do with any grand ideas. I remember this one event as a kid where they gave participation medals. I got one. Kids aren't stupid and they know that it's not the same as a winner's medal. It felt condescending and I hated it. It didn't encourage me to continue pursuing that activity, but at the same time, it didn't discourage me. I was just mad at that particular event.
This, on the other hand, is different. You aren't entering a competition against others, you choose to do something which may or may not result in a badge or a reward (depending on the design of the app). It's more like getting a mug or a pen at an event than getting a trophy.
I think many people perceive life as a competition and rewards for basic participation (like getting up in the morning as an adult) being rather condescending at best and at worst instilling some pretty poor values (one should expect praise for carrying out basic functions of an adult). Personally my gut reaction to an app rewarding me for waking up in the morning is about the same as my reaction to receiving a participation trophy. Does that mean I view life as a competition? I guess, although not sure I would normally phrase it that way.
To have winners, in sport or in life, you have to have losers. We can't just all win because if we just hand out winners badges to everyone then winning has no meaning. Where we place the bar for "winning" in society does have an influence on competition and on how much we strive to excel. Call me silly but I do get a bit concerned when I see the bar being set lower and lower and lower over time.2 -
I’m 31 and participation trophies are at least 25 years old.
I got them in little league. We also knew they weren’t “real” trophies because we hadn’t won any championships. Did they make us happy that we got something and make us feel good? Yeah. But I never thought I deserved it. It was like the treat bag you get for attending a party.
We also saw the big trophies that the championship team took home. We saw the difference.
Where I fall out with the idea of participation trophies is when all contenders are rewarded equally. Fine, give the loser a trophy...but give the winner a bigger one.
It’s when things go to the extreme of “oh, we don’t keep score because we don’t want the losers to feel bad” that I have a real problem. Even as a kid I thought this was stupid.
If there are no losers there are no winners.5 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »I hate participation trophies for one simple reason, and it has nothing to do with any grand ideas. I remember this one event as a kid where they gave participation medals. I got one. Kids aren't stupid and they know that it's not the same as a winner's medal. It felt condescending and I hated it. It didn't encourage me to continue pursuing that activity, but at the same time, it didn't discourage me. I was just mad at that particular event.
This, on the other hand, is different. You aren't entering a competition against others, you choose to do something which may or may not result in a badge or a reward (depending on the design of the app). It's more like getting a mug or a pen at an event than getting a trophy.
I think many people perceive life as a competition and rewards for basic participation (like getting up in the morning as an adult) being rather condescending at best and at worst instilling some pretty poor values (one should expect praise for carrying out basic functions of an adult). Personally my gut reaction to an app rewarding me for waking up in the morning is about the same as my reaction to receiving a participation trophy. Does that mean I view life as a competition? I guess, although not sure I would normally phrase it that way.
To have winners, in sport or in life, you have to have losers. We can't just all win because if we just hand out winners badges to everyone then winning has no meaning. Where we place the bar for "winning" in society does have an influence on competition and on how much we strive to excel. Call me silly but I do get a bit concerned when I see the bar being set lower and lower and lower over time.
That's where you are mistaken. You're making many assumptions there. I can assure you that's not how the vast majority of those who participate in these challenges think.
I'll give you myself as an example. I took a Fitbit challenge where you have to walk 15k steps in a week to "hike a Vernal Fall trail". I took it because I thought the concept was interesting and I was curious what the milestones would reveal. I can walk that much in a day so it was less than basic for me. I found myself wanting to walk a little bit more throughout the day because I kept wanting that dopamine rush right before unlocking a new milestone (which resulted in finishing the challenge in one day). At no point did I think "I deserve a reward because I accomplished the basic task of walking 2k steps a day and I expect to be praised every time I take a few steps". My thoughts were more along the lines of "This is fun and it makes me feel good. I deserve to feel good".7 -
I don't have to wake up at any particular time, so I usually sleep around the clock, whenever I want to. So if I have decided to try and stick to a particular sleeping schedule I might find this extra rewarding useful. Rewards are useful tools when someone is trying to build habits. It follows the mechanisms in games which award achievement points. I guess it might seem strange if you are not a gamer.
I'm 38 yo and don't see myself as a not-adult, infantile or pathetic in anyway.
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amusedmonkey wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »I hate participation trophies for one simple reason, and it has nothing to do with any grand ideas. I remember this one event as a kid where they gave participation medals. I got one. Kids aren't stupid and they know that it's not the same as a winner's medal. It felt condescending and I hated it. It didn't encourage me to continue pursuing that activity, but at the same time, it didn't discourage me. I was just mad at that particular event.
This, on the other hand, is different. You aren't entering a competition against others, you choose to do something which may or may not result in a badge or a reward (depending on the design of the app). It's more like getting a mug or a pen at an event than getting a trophy.
I think many people perceive life as a competition and rewards for basic participation (like getting up in the morning as an adult) being rather condescending at best and at worst instilling some pretty poor values (one should expect praise for carrying out basic functions of an adult). Personally my gut reaction to an app rewarding me for waking up in the morning is about the same as my reaction to receiving a participation trophy. Does that mean I view life as a competition? I guess, although not sure I would normally phrase it that way.
To have winners, in sport or in life, you have to have losers. We can't just all win because if we just hand out winners badges to everyone then winning has no meaning. Where we place the bar for "winning" in society does have an influence on competition and on how much we strive to excel. Call me silly but I do get a bit concerned when I see the bar being set lower and lower and lower over time.
That's where you are mistaken. You're making many assumptions there. I can assure you that's not how the vast majority of those who participate in these challenges think.
I'll give you myself as an example. I took a Fitbit challenge where you have to walk 15k steps in a week to "hike a Vernal Fall trail". I took it because I thought the concept was interesting and I was curious what the milestones would reveal. I can walk that much in a day so it was less than basic for me. I found myself wanting to walk a little bit more throughout the day because I kept wanting that dopamine rush right before unlocking a new milestone (which resulted in finishing the challenge in one day). At no point did I think "I deserve a reward because I accomplished the basic task of walking 2k steps a day and I expect to be praised every time I take a few steps". My thoughts were more along the lines of "This is fun and it makes me feel good. I deserve to feel good".
I dont believe I made the claim of a vast majority and I certainly didn't presume to assume that of you personally.0 -
I'm entirely bemused as to what participation trophies in competitions have to do with anything.
Is my post-chore cuppa going to cause the fall of society?2 -
I'm entirely bemused as to what participation trophies in competitions have to do with anything.
Is my post-chore cuppa going to cause the fall of society?
Hence my point that some people see life as a competition and some do not. You seem to be in the "do not" category which means you probably don't see the connection. Those who do see life in a competitive way probably do see the connection. And that is fine. You can choose to mock it if you want to I suppose.2 -
I did not get up before 9 am this morning, because I work with people overseas and it would be dysfunctional for me to be awake when they aren't. I also do my most creative work about 2 am, and need my sleep.
The thing is, I don't want a friggen medal for getting up at 9 am either because if I did that, I would not be doing something good, I would be doing something stupid. It seems to me that more than people who naturally "adult" well versus people who expect medals for every little thing, the universe is divided into people who already get up at 9 am because it makes sense for them to, versus people who get up at some other time because it makes more sense for them to get up at some other time. Who wants a stupid app dictating the terms of their life? I would be offended if some app offered me a reward for something that would harm me. If I want to sleep in, I don't want a reward for not sleeping in, I want to sleep in. If I wanted to get up I would get up.
This medal seems to presuppose that the workers at this company are all lazy and calling in late and a simple app will motivate them to not go out and party all night instead of getting to work on time. Which if true is a problem beyond the scope of a simple app.2 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »There seem to be two camps developing in this thread based on a different perception of the world....it is rather interesting.
If people are willing to respond to a hypothetical I'd be curious how these two camps divide on this example:
This year the little league season had a trophy for the one team that won the finals. Some people were concerned that this made a lot of people feel rather bad so it was decided that next year any team that participated in the season would be awarded a trophy at the end. Do you think this decision will end up encouraging more people to play or do you think that this decision will end up removing a key aspect that pushes people to compete and to excel...or do you think it will make no difference at all?
Second is the existence of "participation trophies" a recent cultural phenomena or is it something that has always been done?
As a road cyclist, I can tell you that any time two people on bikes are going the same direction, it's a race. There are no trophies in this "cat 6" world, just the satisfaction of winning.
Participation trophies don't take the joy out of winning. I wouldn't advocate for them, but I don't see the harm either.3 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »There seem to be two camps developing in this thread based on a different perception of the world....it is rather interesting.
If people are willing to respond to a hypothetical I'd be curious how these two camps divide on this example:
This year the little league season had a trophy for the one team that won the finals. Some people were concerned that this made a lot of people feel rather bad so it was decided that next year any team that participated in the season would be awarded a trophy at the end. Do you think this decision will end up encouraging more people to play or do you think that this decision will end up removing a key aspect that pushes people to compete and to excel...or do you think it will make no difference at all?
Second is the existence of "participation trophies" a recent cultural phenomena or is it something that has always been done?
I think participation trophies work for much younger age brackets to get them into new activities (as confidence boosters), you said little league but I’m U.K. based so have no idea how old that is, personally I think by the age of 5-6 a child no longer needs a badge/trophy/merit for simply turning up. However I have three kids, a 6 year old who is well accomplished at Kung fu but no longer wishes to do it because she sees people turning up to her kwoon and getting rewarded simply for being there while she’s put in 3 years of work (she’s very disciplined), she’s also great at gymnastics and has the perseverance within her to put in the hours so she’s the best in her group, she’d probably pull you up if you gave her a trophy just for being there. I have an 8 year old with special needs whose social and emotional abilities are that of a toddler still, so she does need constant reinforcement to stay on task/to participate but I don’t think that should be the job of the activity it should be ours. My teenager, well she probably wouldn’t go to an activity even if you paid her before, during and after but I’m putting that down to age at the moment.
You’d probably find an increase in participation for a short time but that’ll most likely tail off, as the activity needs more input/has greater targets etc. The participants who were there for the activity, without the thought of physical reward, could go one of two ways as I’ve seen with my youngest, the increased level of participants whose sole purpose was not for the sport itself has led to someone who was seriously invested becoming discouraged to the point of no longer participating themselves, or they could push beyond it to show their skills are superior/the best.
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Aaron_K123 wrote: »I'm entirely bemused as to what participation trophies in competitions have to do with anything.
Is my post-chore cuppa going to cause the fall of society?
Hence my point that some people see life as a competition and some do not. You seem to be in the "do not" category which means you probably don't see the connection. Those who do see life in a competitive way probably do see the connection. And that is fine. You can choose to mock it if you want to I suppose.
Well, yes - I will mock anyone who thinks that using little rewards to motivate myself to do things I don't wanna will cause the downfall of society.
And I would like an actual explanation of how my post-chore cuppa relates to participation awards in a competition - which I am very much against, by the way.4 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »I'm entirely bemused as to what participation trophies in competitions have to do with anything.
Is my post-chore cuppa going to cause the fall of society?
Hence my point that some people see life as a competition and some do not. You seem to be in the "do not" category which means you probably don't see the connection. Those who do see life in a competitive way probably do see the connection. And that is fine. You can choose to mock it if you want to I suppose.
Well, yes - I will mock anyone who thinks that using little rewards to motivate myself to do things I don't wanna will cause the downfall of society.
And I would like an actual explanation of how my post-chore cuppa relates to participation awards in a competition - which I am very much against, by the way.
So you are going to be disrespectful while asking that I also answer your questions? Have I disrespected or mocked you anywhere in this thread? Honestly if you can't be civil I dont see the point, from what I've seen so far whatever I say you will just mock it and act like I am personally offending you in some way. It's rather exhausting and I dont see the point. If you want to win an argument or something congrats you win...here is your trophy.
Just to attempt to have some closure because if I dont answer you are just going to mock that I will answer and then I'm done replying to you honestly. How does your post-chore cuppa relate to participation trophies? It doesn't and I never said it did....somehow you seem to read anything I post here as always directed towards you. Need more than that I imagine so I'll try to explain what I mean.
A participation trophy is an external reward...it is an expectation that something or someone other than yourself will reward you for basic things like showing up...or like getting out of bed which was the OP example and what my analogy was about. Your example is you rewarding yourself...you putting in some effort to provide yourself with a reward for completing a task. You are the one responsible for the reward...you put in effort to plan that if you do x you get y and then put in work to produce the reward. It isnt the same thing as just being handed things for showing up to the point you start to expect an external reward for basic actions and it's not what I'm referring to. For your example to match youd have to have said that whenever you complete chores you expect someone else to show up and provide you with a cuppa which would be a bit off yeah.
Your whole schtick is implying I've said things I haven't said either intentionally or from just not comprehending my point or because I didn't explain it well enough I dont know.5 -
So it’s downfall-of-society wrong if someone else gives me something for doing the basics, but absolutely OK if I give myself something for doing the basics?
If I set an app to give me a reward, which is that?4
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