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Keto Diet Debate
Replies
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I became overweight, even obese eating " clean and healthy" 90% of the time. my eating too many fruits and veggies put me into a calorie surplus. I didnt reaize how many calories some fruits can really have. if it was caused by the types of foods you eat then all vegans and vegetarians would be obese/overweight because of high carb diets.
Ive lost weight eating carbs,Ive gained weight eating carbs and now Im maintaining eating carbs. its all about HOW much I eat. I also am a person who doesnt eat a lot or bread,rice,potatos,pasta,etc all because Im not a big fan of those things but do eat them from time to time. still lost weight even eating those things.If it was about what you eat then I would have NEVER have lost weight especially on days I overdid it on the chocolate or gummies or what have you.7 -
Please, Please, Please MFP make it so that we can track net carbs asap. there are so many of us doing KETO and using MFP for tracking. This ability would make life so much easier. I understand on my computer I get a view that I can easily do the math with, however on my telephone I don't! Please allow us to track net carbs. Thank you
Cronometer tracks net carbs1 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »
You think it’s helpful to let people believe false information about what drives weight loss, such that it might derail their actual progress toward achieving their goals if no one refutes the claim that a person can eat more than their TDEE while doing keto and still lose weight?WinoGelato wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »I have been on KETO for five weeks and have lost 16lbs so far. I do 35-40 Carbs a day as I do not want to rush the process and give up everything. Once you figure out what macros will put you in Ketosis, and ensure you are in a calorie deficityour on your way to losing weight.
Fixed it for you.
You really feel the need to edit the same persons post in two different threads and say "Fixed it for you"
If it helps clarify for that poster, and others reading along, what the true driver of the weight loss is (calories) so they avoid the delusion that they can’t gain weight if in ketosis... then yeah.
To be fair I didn’t notice it was the same poster, there are an awful lot of exited new keto followers these days on the boards...
I don't think any keto people think that eating to a calorie surplus will cause weight loss. At least I haven't met any so yeah you have a point. I feel that keto way of eating has two keys that some people find helps. One is the reduction of carbs and the cravings that some feel come with them. The other is the way carb calories get replaced by fat calories. The feeling of not being controlled by hunger is great. Anyway I am lucky because I don't count calories, I don't log and I eat til I am full. If that also works out to be a deficit so be it and yes if I gain then I will need to modify. There are many other things in the keto way of eating that don't fall into the weight loss category I like but no need to go there now.
There have been several in the last few months who were very vocal and have insisted that they could eat as many calories as they wanted (over and above maintenance) and as long as they ate keto they would still lose weight. That is why the clarification is need.
If they can eat keto to a calorie surplus and lose weight I would be impressed. Me, I am too lazy to actually count but I feel as though I am eating more. The emphasis is on "feel". I think that if it could be proven that a keto diet with a calorie surplus would result in weight loss we would have seen it documented by now.
This sounds like you think there’s a possibility, however remote, that a person could potentially eat at a calorie surplus, and as long as following a keto diet, then they wouldn’t gain weight. Is that true?0
No I don't think that, the math just doesn't work. I don't even know how to create a fantasy where a calorie surplus exists and an extra fat burning reaction depletes the body of more than the surplus of extra calories. They sell pills like that on TV but keto won't do it. I just would let them believe what they like but at the end of the day you are either gaining , maintaining or losing weight. I can see why they "believe" it and that okay.
Relax, if they are incorrect they will gain weight just like they probably have for most of their adult life. This isn't rocket science, if someone can't figure out that a way of eating is causing weight gain and derailing their progress toward reaching their goal I doubt you editing their posts to suit your world is going to help either.
You are still missing the point. It isn’t their way of eating that is causing weight gain, it is simply, they are not in a calorie deficit. Period, end of story.
And the fact that you keep glossing over that is exactly why it’s important to keep making this point because there are still a LOT of people who don’t understand that weight gain has nothing to do with the type of foods you eat and everything to do with how much you eat.
If people have been gaining weight their entire adult life and desire to change that, I think it’s helpful to point them in the right direction to accelerate their success, rather than letting them continue to flounder.
Or as in my case they may just be eating the wrong kind of calories. I did not cut my calories but I changed my macros and as my health started to recover the weight came off and stayed off for 3 years now. Healthy people in the general population do not become obese until some factor triggers our overeating and binging especially in my case.
?!?!?!?!?!?!?!5 -
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts..."
–Daniel Patrick Moynihan7 -
Keto is no miracle drug. In the end it is still about "calories in vs calories out" and will power. It can be a tool though. Some people just eat less, because protein and fat usually make you feel fuller than carbs for a longer period of time. And, while that is true in many cases, it is not so for everyone. I still have to count every gram of food i eat before hand or I will overeat, even being on keto. I do not eat bacon and any other kind of pork, heavy cream, "ketofied" versions of comfort food etc. exactly because of that reason. Everyone who says they can eat as unlimited amounts and chug buletproof coffee all day long, and keep losing wieght, are delusional. Even if they are losing at this point, they are either not eating as much as they think, or they under estimate their daily calorie needs (often happens with very obese individuals). Also, losing 2 pounds of fat in a night is not realistic - that's just water.
2 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »
You think it’s helpful to let people believe false information about what drives weight loss, such that it might derail their actual progress toward achieving their goals if no one refutes the claim that a person can eat more than their TDEE while doing keto and still lose weight?WinoGelato wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »I have been on KETO for five weeks and have lost 16lbs so far. I do 35-40 Carbs a day as I do not want to rush the process and give up everything. Once you figure out what macros will put you in Ketosis, and ensure you are in a calorie deficityour on your way to losing weight.
Fixed it for you.
You really feel the need to edit the same persons post in two different threads and say "Fixed it for you"
If it helps clarify for that poster, and others reading along, what the true driver of the weight loss is (calories) so they avoid the delusion that they can’t gain weight if in ketosis... then yeah.
To be fair I didn’t notice it was the same poster, there are an awful lot of exited new keto followers these days on the boards...
I don't think any keto people think that eating to a calorie surplus will cause weight loss. At least I haven't met any so yeah you have a point. I feel that keto way of eating has two keys that some people find helps. One is the reduction of carbs and the cravings that some feel come with them. The other is the way carb calories get replaced by fat calories. The feeling of not being controlled by hunger is great. Anyway I am lucky because I don't count calories, I don't log and I eat til I am full. If that also works out to be a deficit so be it and yes if I gain then I will need to modify. There are many other things in the keto way of eating that don't fall into the weight loss category I like but no need to go there now.
There have been several in the last few months who were very vocal and have insisted that they could eat as many calories as they wanted (over and above maintenance) and as long as they ate keto they would still lose weight. That is why the clarification is need.
If they can eat keto to a calorie surplus and lose weight I would be impressed. Me, I am too lazy to actually count but I feel as though I am eating more. The emphasis is on "feel". I think that if it could be proven that a keto diet with a calorie surplus would result in weight loss we would have seen it documented by now.
This sounds like you think there’s a possibility, however remote, that a person could potentially eat at a calorie surplus, and as long as following a keto diet, then they wouldn’t gain weight. Is that true?0
No I don't think that, the math just doesn't work. I don't even know how to create a fantasy where a calorie surplus exists and an extra fat burning reaction depletes the body of more than the surplus of extra calories. They sell pills like that on TV but keto won't do it. I just would let them believe what they like but at the end of the day you are either gaining , maintaining or losing weight. I can see why they "believe" it and that okay.
Relax, if they are incorrect they will gain weight just like they probably have for most of their adult life. This isn't rocket science, if someone can't figure out that a way of eating is causing weight gain and derailing their progress toward reaching their goal I doubt you editing their posts to suit your world is going to help either.
You are still missing the point. It isn’t their way of eating that is causing weight gain, it is simply, they are not in a calorie deficit. Period, end of story.
And the fact that you keep glossing over that is exactly why it’s important to keep making this point because there are still a LOT of people who don’t understand that weight gain has nothing to do with the type of foods you eat and everything to do with how much you eat.
If people have been gaining weight their entire adult life and desire to change that, I think it’s helpful to point them in the right direction to accelerate their success, rather than letting them continue to flounder.
Or as in my case they may just be eating the wrong kind of calories. I did not cut my calories but I changed my macros and as my health started to recover the weight came off and stayed off for 3 years now. Healthy people in the general population do not become obese until some factor triggers our overeating and binging especially in my case.
You aren't going to gain weight eating "the wrong kind" of calories unless you're also in a calorie surplus. And in the case of a surplus, you'd be gaining weight even if all your calories were "the right kind."
It's irrelevant except how it pertains to satiety and how easy it makes it for an individual to meet their calorie goal.
I gain weight due to eating the wrong kind of calories because a HCHF WOE leads to binging yet a LCHF WOE stops the binging.
Review the biological difference in living on ketones vs glucose.
https://google.com/search?q=biological+difference+in+living+on+ketones+vs+glucose&oq=biological+difference+in+living+on+ketones+vs+glucose&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Note how ketones can fuel the brain when conditions develop that causes the brain to starve for energy if one is still trying to feed it on glucose.
I pigged out at Red Lobster last night because it was the kids 21th birthday and lost two pounds from yesterday morning and did not skip any meals plus on the way home I stopped at McDonalds and had another 480 calories of coffee. I blew a .041% on the alcohol breath analyzer first thing this morning (the ketones that are wasted calories eaten) which indicates I am still in nutritional ketosis so yesterday's total carb intake had to be 50 grams or less.
You can word it a thousand different ways, but the fact of the matter is, you gained weight in the past because you overate. It wasn't the wrong kind of calories, it was too many, and it was based on the fact that you didn't have self control when eating carbs. It wasn't the evil carbs fault, it was yours for eating too much. You lost weight when cutting carbs because you no longer overate. You do this deceptive little thing where you imply that you are eating the same amount of calories now as you were before and that is clearly false. I feel that when you do this you are being blatantly dishonest and are attempting to influence people who just don't know any better. You lost weight because you ate less calories, period. It wasn't the type of calories you ate because that doesn't matter. It was the number. Your whole post above is just a complete mess and contradictory to everything you normally claim. You say you no longer binge since you cut carbs and then you tell us all about your Red Lobster and Mcdonalds binge. Seriously, who wastes that many calories on coffee? I am still trying to figure out the relevance of your breathalyzer results. Too much alcohol might explain your crazy claims I suppose...Gale, you need to just stop posting because none of your advice carries the least bit of truth and it does nothing but harm to those who are actually looking for real advice.14 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »
You think it’s helpful to let people believe false information about what drives weight loss, such that it might derail their actual progress toward achieving their goals if no one refutes the claim that a person can eat more than their TDEE while doing keto and still lose weight?WinoGelato wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »I have been on KETO for five weeks and have lost 16lbs so far. I do 35-40 Carbs a day as I do not want to rush the process and give up everything. Once you figure out what macros will put you in Ketosis, and ensure you are in a calorie deficityour on your way to losing weight.
Fixed it for you.
You really feel the need to edit the same persons post in two different threads and say "Fixed it for you"
If it helps clarify for that poster, and others reading along, what the true driver of the weight loss is (calories) so they avoid the delusion that they can’t gain weight if in ketosis... then yeah.
To be fair I didn’t notice it was the same poster, there are an awful lot of exited new keto followers these days on the boards...
I don't think any keto people think that eating to a calorie surplus will cause weight loss. At least I haven't met any so yeah you have a point. I feel that keto way of eating has two keys that some people find helps. One is the reduction of carbs and the cravings that some feel come with them. The other is the way carb calories get replaced by fat calories. The feeling of not being controlled by hunger is great. Anyway I am lucky because I don't count calories, I don't log and I eat til I am full. If that also works out to be a deficit so be it and yes if I gain then I will need to modify. There are many other things in the keto way of eating that don't fall into the weight loss category I like but no need to go there now.
There have been several in the last few months who were very vocal and have insisted that they could eat as many calories as they wanted (over and above maintenance) and as long as they ate keto they would still lose weight. That is why the clarification is need.
If they can eat keto to a calorie surplus and lose weight I would be impressed. Me, I am too lazy to actually count but I feel as though I am eating more. The emphasis is on "feel". I think that if it could be proven that a keto diet with a calorie surplus would result in weight loss we would have seen it documented by now.
This sounds like you think there’s a possibility, however remote, that a person could potentially eat at a calorie surplus, and as long as following a keto diet, then they wouldn’t gain weight. Is that true?0
No I don't think that, the math just doesn't work. I don't even know how to create a fantasy where a calorie surplus exists and an extra fat burning reaction depletes the body of more than the surplus of extra calories. They sell pills like that on TV but keto won't do it. I just would let them believe what they like but at the end of the day you are either gaining , maintaining or losing weight. I can see why they "believe" it and that okay.
Relax, if they are incorrect they will gain weight just like they probably have for most of their adult life. This isn't rocket science, if someone can't figure out that a way of eating is causing weight gain and derailing their progress toward reaching their goal I doubt you editing their posts to suit your world is going to help either.
You are still missing the point. It isn’t their way of eating that is causing weight gain, it is simply, they are not in a calorie deficit. Period, end of story.
And the fact that you keep glossing over that is exactly why it’s important to keep making this point because there are still a LOT of people who don’t understand that weight gain has nothing to do with the type of foods you eat and everything to do with how much you eat.
If people have been gaining weight their entire adult life and desire to change that, I think it’s helpful to point them in the right direction to accelerate their success, rather than letting them continue to flounder.
Or as in my case they may just be eating the wrong kind of calories. I did not cut my calories but I changed my macros and as my health started to recover the weight came off and stayed off for 3 years now. Healthy people in the general population do not become obese until some factor triggers our overeating and binging especially in my case.
8 -
Would it be fair to say...
I changed what I ate. That led to a change in overall calorie intake. That led to weight loss.
Everyone agrees that A happen. Everyone agrees that C happens. But some people are failing to mention/acknowledge that B is happening (intentionally or unintentionally), and that's the critical context here.9 -
Would it be fair to say...
I changed what I ate. That led to a change in overall calorie intake. That led to weight loss.
Everyone agrees that A happen. Everyone agrees that C happens. But some people are failing to mention/acknowledge that B is happening (intentionally or unintentionally), and that's the critical context here.
Actually, if I'm being thorough, it should be...
A -- I changed what I ate.
B -- That led to a change in overall calorie intake.
C -- That changed my overall calorie/energy balance.
D -- That led to weight loss.
C is the crucial part in all this.1 -
I am still trying to figure out the relevance of your breathalyzer results. Too much alcohol might explain your crazy claims I suppose...
I'm fairly certain the breathalyzer mentioned by @GaleHawkins is a breathalyzer used to test ketones. There are many types available. Here's one:
https://www.ketonix.com/3 -
Would it be fair to say...
I changed what I ate. That led to a change in overall calorie intake. That led to weight loss.
Everyone agrees that A happen. Everyone agrees that C happens. But some people are failing to mention/acknowledge that B is happening (intentionally or unintentionally), and that's the critical context here.
Actually, if I'm being thorough, it should be...
A -- I changed what I ate.
B -- That led to a change in overall calorie intake.
C -- That changed my overall calorie/energy balance.
D -- That led to weight loss.
C is the crucial part in all this.
Yep. A and B are the "hows"...
C is the "why"...1 -
I am still trying to figure out the relevance of your breathalyzer results. Too much alcohol might explain your crazy claims I suppose...
I'm fairly certain the breathalyzer mentioned by @GaleHawkins is a breathalyzer used to test ketones. There are many types available. Here's one:
https://www.ketonix.com/
@kpk54 I actually use an $15 alcohol breathalyzer from ebay/amazon.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1236978/breathalyzer-for-ketosis-check/p1
While the above MFP post on the subject is over 4 years old it is how Google introduced me to MFP back in 2014. Below is like the ones that I have purchased.
https://ebay.com/itm/Portable-Digital-LCD-Police-Breathalyzer-Breath-Test-Alcohol-Analyzer-Detector/192656021869
Actually the reason I went with this one is what the initial developer of the Ketonix unit had posted 4 years about. He said he was using the sensors like in these alcohol meters because they were cheap and would detect acetone in breath the same as alcohol. More expense ones filter out acetone detected so people in a state of Nutritional Ketosis would not be charged with DWI. These $15 meters reported work to some degree for alcohol but since I do not drink alcohol ever I have not tested them with alcohol.
The calories that are required to create a positive reading are free calories because we eat them but the energy from them can not turn into fat.
I prefer these $15 meters giving the same results as has been reported in other threads on the subject. The last time I checked the Ketonix is way more than $15.
From my machinist days I call these GO and NO GO gauges. They can give a false Negative but not a False Positive result from my four years of experience with them. These days as long as I am in Nutritional Ketosis is my main concern. My blood ketone tester gives good results but I do not like the pain and $$$ to use it.
fellrnr.com/wiki/Breath_Acetone_Meters
" Acetone is produced when your body is burning fat, and this can be measured in your breath. There are now a growing number of options for measuring your breath acetone. The devices vary wildly in price, and I've found some of the cheaper options can be quite effective. In all cases, how you breathe when taking a measurement is critical to getting a consistent and accurate reading. Overall, I found that measuring breath acetone to be far more convenient, and far more useful than measuring blood ketone levels. Measuring breath acetone is vastly cheaper than blood tests, and obviously less painful. This allowed me to check my ketone levels throughout the day, enabling me to find more detailed information about how my body reacts to food and exercise.
The Ketonix is an FDA approved device that is designed specifically as a breath acetone meter. This is the only device that will give you an acetone reading in Parts Per Million, but is expensive and I found it to be cumbersome to use and I've experienced more erroneous readings than with cheaper devices.
A cheap breathalyzer can be used as an improvised breath acetone meter. While these devices are intended to measure alcohol intoxication through breast measurement, the cheaper devices also detect acetone. This means you have to get a cheap, low quality breathalyzer, as the better devices will filter out any acetone. (I like the Greenwon AT6000, [1]).
There's another dedicated breath acetone meter called Ketometer. It's cheaper than the Ketonix, but more expensive than a cheap breathalyzer.
LEVL is a remarkably expensive device for measuring breath acetone, and it requires an ongoing subscription. At the time of writing, it's$699 + $49/month, which is too expensive for me to consider. One interesting note is that it comes with a calibration gas, something I've not seen with any other device. LEVL.
There is a single use breath acetone test launched by Metron, but it's unclear if this is still available options. The cost of around $3/test makes it even more expensive than blood BOHB testing, which is generally considered the gold standard. Metron. "10 -
never mind.2
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This content has been removed.
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Would it be fair to say...
I changed what I ate. That led to a change in overall calorie intake. That led to weight loss.
In all the diets around people miss this mechanism and focus on the processes that make it happen. All the diets consist of reducing calories for weight loss. No real magic there. There are some small variations, but nothing statistically significantly better than a normal diet and reduced calories.
The best and most comprehenisive meta-analysis I found was this from last year. This covers all the various diet types, stregnths and weaknesses of each, as well as how thromogenics and other factors play a role in TDEE.
International society of sports nutrition position stand: diets and body composition
Basically the TLDR of this is, caloric deficit is key, but each person needs to find the process they will stick to consistently.
7 -
This guy seems to enjoy debating the Keto Diet.
https://masteringdiabetes.org/ketosis-ketogenic-diets-misleading/11 -
How is it that there is no long term studies on the keto WOE with a statistically significant population but this video can come with pages of negative FACTS. In the interest of full disclosure we should have been told the speakers qualifications and whom funded the video.8
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WinoGelato wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »I have been on KETO for five weeks and have lost 16lbs so far. I do 35-40 Carbs a day as I do not want to rush the process and give up everything. Once you figure out what macros will put you in Ketosis, and ensure you are in a calorie deficityour on your way to losing weight.
Fixed it for you.
You really feel the need to edit the same persons post in two different threads and say "Fixed it for you"
If it helps clarify for that poster, and others reading along, what the true driver of the weight loss is (calories) so they avoid the delusion that they can’t gain weight if in ketosis... then yeah.
To be fair I didn’t notice it was the same poster, there are an awful lot of exited new keto followers these days on the boards...
*excited not exited fixed it for you 6 -
I quit the keto diet because I don't eat the same amount of calories every day. I have hungry days. And even though I lost overall, I gained 6 lbs TWICE and both times it took 3 weeks to come off again. Since I have stopped I can eat a whole pizza and still lose.
I was so strict most weeks out of fear of gaining 6 lbs again. I ate 1100-1300 calories and under 15 net carbs everyday and barely lost anything after the first few weeks. Which is weird because I have lost 5 lbs the last few weeks on a break from dieting. I don't know why keto doesn't work for me. Wish I knew. It is good for resetting sugar addiction for me though. I have had less cravings for a couple months now.
I don't miss all my dishes being greasy either lol. I went through so much dish soap.
I am not against keto, if it works for someone it's hard to argue with the results. If someone stays healthy and likes the way they are eating then you would be a jerk to argue with them about that.. But it doesn't work for everyone. I know how to be very strict and I got heartbreaking results.3 -
Erinloveable wrote: »I quit the keto diet because I don't eat the same amount of calories every day. I have hungry days. And even though I lost overall, I gained 6 lbs TWICE and both times it took 3 weeks to come off again. Since I have stopped I can eat a whole pizza and still lose.
I was so strict most weeks out of fear of gaining 6 lbs again. I ate 1100-1300 calories and under 15 net carbs everyday and barely lost anything after the first few weeks. Which is weird because I have lost 5 lbs the last few weeks on a break from dieting. I don't know why keto doesn't work for me. Wish I knew. It is good for resetting sugar addiction for me though. I have had less cravings for a couple months now.
I don't miss all my dishes being greasy either lol. I went through so much dish soap.
I am not against keto, if it works for someone it's hard to argue with the results. If someone stays healthy and likes the way they are eating then you would be a jerk to argue with them about that.. But it doesn't work for everyone. I know how to be very strict and I got heartbreaking results.
If you were eating at a deficit, you were most likely losing fat whether the scale showed it or not. But it sounds like you are doing just fine without keto, or on large macro swings. Perhaps cycling your macros works well for you?1 -
How is it that there is no long term studies on the keto WOE with a statistically significant population but this video can come with pages of negative FACTS. In the interest of full disclosure we should have been told the speakers qualifications and whom funded the video.
Probably the most significant study I've seen was done by Hall, et al: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27385608
n=17, metabolic chambers and doubly labeled water utilized, diet standardized/measured. Excellent analysis/review of the study here: https://shreddedbyscience.com/ketogenic-diets-actually-work-study-review/
And then there's Johnston, et al: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16685046/
n=20, intake and exercise controlled.5 -
How is it that there is no long term studies on the keto WOE with a statistically significant population but this video can come with pages of negative FACTS. In the interest of full disclosure we should have been told the speakers qualifications and whom funded the video.
Probably the most significant study I've seen was done by Hall, et al: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27385608
n=17, metabolic chambers and doubly labeled water utilized, diet standardized/measured. Excellent analysis/review of the study here: https://shreddedbyscience.com/ketogenic-diets-actually-work-study-review/
And then there's Johnston, et al: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16685046/
n=20, intake and exercise controlled.
I really liked the Johnston study. I would have also liked to see two groups and have both eat (one keto , one carb) go at it for the full eight weeks. I am not sure if starting one way and immediately going to the other effects the results so I would find that interesting. Anyway thanks for posting it was a good read.2
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