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Ultraprocessed food and increased mortality risk?
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French_Peasant wrote: »Here's Kevin Halls new study with ultra-processed foods, I don't think this has been linked yet?
https://osf.io/preprints/nutrixiv/w3zh2
WOW that study is insane! I would honestly stab myself after a single day on the ultra processed diet--just scrolling through the pictures makes me feel like heaving. (I would be down with the PB&J and the Egg McMuffin type thing, however, and I have the liquid scrambled eggs every morning from our cafeteria at work but they seem fine to me). That diet is nasty!
However, I have to note, they really tipped the scales toward one particular subset of ultra-processed food. They did not include vegetarian or protein-heavy, organic frozen dinners full of veggies, 100% whole grain bread, pizza loaded down with veggies, fruits at every meal canned in LIGHT syrup, frozen veggie burgers on whole grain buns, pasta with sauce very heavy on an assortment of veg, etc. all of which fall under the ultra processed rubric because they have additives to extend shelf life and come in fancy packaging that give the appearance of healthfulness. Also, what was the canned corn doing in there? That's not ultra-processed.
Still, I can believe that the less-processed diet would handily beat out the ultraprocessed diet on weight management.
This did catch my attention from the fasted blood testing:
"Interestingly, the appetite-suppressing hormone PYY increased during the unprocessed diet as compared with both the ultra-processed diet and baseline. In contrast, the hunger hormone ghrelin was decreased during the unprocessed diet compared to baseline."
I agree with all this, but the point about tipping the balance by the ultraprocessed foods chosen is interesting. It seems like many of these studies are less about "processing" and more about "if you ignore nutritional considerations and satiety, will you eat more poorly for health and weight. It seems obvious that's true, but that doesn't at all say anything about eating a diet made up of a variety of mixed and whole foods and some ultraprocessed that takes satiety and nutrition into consideration.
(Oh, I see kimny made the point already too -- I agree with her post also!)7 -
French_Peasant wrote: »Here's Kevin Halls new study with ultra-processed foods, I don't think this has been linked yet?
https://osf.io/preprints/nutrixiv/w3zh2
WOW that study is insane! I would honestly stab myself after a single day on the ultra processed diet--just scrolling through the pictures makes me feel like heaving. (I would be down with the PB&J and the Egg McMuffin type thing, however, and I have the liquid scrambled eggs every morning from our cafeteria at work but they seem fine to me). That diet is nasty!
However, I have to note, they really tipped the scales toward one particular subset of ultra-processed food. They did not include vegetarian or protein-heavy, organic frozen dinners full of veggies, 100% whole grain bread, pizza loaded down with veggies, fruits at every meal canned in LIGHT syrup, frozen veggie burgers on whole grain buns, pasta with sauce very heavy on an assortment of veg, etc. all of which fall under the ultra processed rubric because they have additives to extend shelf life and come in fancy packaging that give the appearance of healthfulness. Also, what was the canned corn doing in there? That's not ultra-processed.
Still, I can believe that the less-processed diet would handily beat out the ultraprocessed diet on weight management.
This did catch my attention from the fasted blood testing:
"Interestingly, the appetite-suppressing hormone PYY increased during the unprocessed diet as compared with both the ultra-processed diet and baseline. In contrast, the hunger hormone ghrelin was decreased during the unprocessed diet compared to baseline."
Guilty admission: I haven't read the study yet, but plan to.
It seems like they'd want to test a relatively extremely "ultraprocessed" diet that's fairly typical of things commonly eaten. The things you list as being included seem to fit that.
I don't understand why they'd test with the closest-to-real-food alternatives that just barely meet the "ultraprocessed" definition - your "tipped scales" list. Around here, there may be people who eat that way, but it's not the standard "ultraprocessed" way of eating in the wild, statistically speaking.
It seems liked you'd want to test the common case, not the "just barely qualifies" uncommon case.
If I've misread this, one I've checked out the study, I'll come back and admit it.
0 -
French_Peasant wrote: »Here's Kevin Halls new study with ultra-processed foods, I don't think this has been linked yet?
https://osf.io/preprints/nutrixiv/w3zh2
WOW that study is insane! I would honestly stab myself after a single day on the ultra processed diet--just scrolling through the pictures makes me feel like heaving. (I would be down with the PB&J and the Egg McMuffin type thing, however, and I have the liquid scrambled eggs every morning from our cafeteria at work but they seem fine to me). That diet is nasty!
However, I have to note, they really tipped the scales toward one particular subset of ultra-processed food. They did not include vegetarian or protein-heavy, organic frozen dinners full of veggies, 100% whole grain bread, pizza loaded down with veggies, fruits at every meal canned in LIGHT syrup, frozen veggie burgers on whole grain buns, pasta with sauce very heavy on an assortment of veg, etc. all of which fall under the ultra processed rubric because they have additives to extend shelf life and come in fancy packaging that give the appearance of healthfulness. Also, what was the canned corn doing in there? That's not ultra-processed.
Still, I can believe that the less-processed diet would handily beat out the ultraprocessed diet on weight management.
This did catch my attention from the fasted blood testing:
"Interestingly, the appetite-suppressing hormone PYY increased during the unprocessed diet as compared with both the ultra-processed diet and baseline. In contrast, the hunger hormone ghrelin was decreased during the unprocessed diet compared to baseline."
Guilty admission: I haven't read the study yet, but plan to.
It seems like they'd want to test a relatively extremely "ultraprocessed" diet that's fairly typical of things commonly eaten. The things you list as being included seem to fit that.
I don't understand why they'd test with the closest-to-real-food alternatives that just barely meet the "ultraprocessed" definition - your "tipped scales" list. Around here, there may be people who eat that way, but it's not the standard "ultraprocessed" way of eating in the wild, statistically speaking.
It seems liked you'd want to test the common case, not the "just barely qualifies" uncommon case.
If I've misread this, one I've checked out the study, I'll come back and admit it.
If the argument is that being "ultraprocessed" (i.e., containing supposedly non-natural ingredients, being farther removed from the whole state) is the problem, which is kind of how a lot of people -- especially those prone to moralizing about it or thinking it should be all or nothing, better to avoid added sugar even if they barely eat veg than to eat a diet rich in nutrients with some added sugar -- think of it, then the test should be similar foods and nutrients differing only in processing. (Personally I still think that might merely measure convenience, however. It's easier to overeat when you don't have to prepare all the things you eat.)
If the argument is -- as I think it's supposed to be, but it's not being portrayed this way by all -- that eating a diet made up of the foods in question tends to cause overeating (which I think we already know from, well, America), then sure, but the issue then isn't necessarily "ultraprocessed" vs. not.
People love, love, love the Brazilian approach with the focus on processing, but I kind of think it's incoherent and prefer the US one focusing on nutrients. I'd say, of course, that on average it's easier to get in adequate nutrients without counting by thinking about the make up of the plate, half veg, etc., and not track them, but saying that unprocessed is better (whatever it is) and processed = bad is confusing. Sometimes the best option might be a ready made meal that happens to include good nutrients and thinking "oh, but ultraprocessed food is inherently bad" would not be helpful.
I know we agree on this, and my beef is more with how these studies get explained, but I don't think what's being studied here is the effect of processing in and of itself, as some purists would have it.3 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »Thanks for the replies folks - this is good reinforcement as I've been known to get ridiculously picky when shopping, or just going all out, no healthy middle ground.
@AnnPT77 - That video I posted earlier talks exactly about what you stated RE: the quasi-religious zeal and minute amounts - they say basically the same thing, which is refreshing to hear.
I hate to admit that my mind can be one of those that gets hung up on what's not really important....but it do
Now people are rehijacking the moral disgust reactions back to food. So they're taking something developed for reacting to food, that grew to handle morals, and taking morals back to reacting to food. There's an emotional eating I definitely thing is unhealthy.
And guys (and gals) like me are the primary target I would guess. For a time there I was one of the "You must either be eating all Twinkies or all broccoli" people that pinuplove mentioned.
These days I eat much more of a little bit of everything, but that's after a lot of reading here and trying it for my self.
That's really a disgusting strategy by the way. I used to not even be able to go shopping without arguing with myself over everything that went into the cart.3 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »Thanks for the replies folks - this is good reinforcement as I've been known to get ridiculously picky when shopping, or just going all out, no healthy middle ground.
@AnnPT77 - That video I posted earlier talks exactly about what you stated RE: the quasi-religious zeal and minute amounts - they say basically the same thing, which is refreshing to hear.
I hate to admit that my mind can be one of those that gets hung up on what's not really important....but it do
Now people are rehijacking the moral disgust reactions back to food. So they're taking something developed for reacting to food, that grew to handle morals, and taking morals back to reacting to food. There's an emotional eating I definitely thing is unhealthy.
And guys (and gals) like me are the primary target I would guess. For a time there I was one of the "You must either be eating all Twinkies or all broccoli" people that pinuplove mentioned.
These days I eat much more of a little bit of everything, but that's after a lot of reading here and trying it for my self.
That's really a disgusting strategy by the way. I used to not even be able to go shopping without arguing with myself over everything that went into the cart.
Back in the day I did an experiment with primal/paleo eating and got really involved in the 'lifestyle' (began hanging out on a couple of forums/spent a lot of time reading/listening through the (cult) leaders materials etc). It was the only time I ever found myself in a situation where I started placing value on foods and started down the rabbit hole of 'good' food and 'bad' food. It led me to a really bad place with my mental health. I became obsessive about food, began believing that certain foods were poisoning me, began spending money I didn't have to buy the 'good' food etc etc. Thankfully I was able to get out of it after a few months, but it was a pretty scary experience!
5 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »Thanks for the replies folks - this is good reinforcement as I've been known to get ridiculously picky when shopping, or just going all out, no healthy middle ground.
@AnnPT77 - That video I posted earlier talks exactly about what you stated RE: the quasi-religious zeal and minute amounts - they say basically the same thing, which is refreshing to hear.
I hate to admit that my mind can be one of those that gets hung up on what's not really important....but it do
Now people are rehijacking the moral disgust reactions back to food. So they're taking something developed for reacting to food, that grew to handle morals, and taking morals back to reacting to food. There's an emotional eating I definitely thing is unhealthy.
And guys (and gals) like me are the primary target I would guess. For a time there I was one of the "You must either be eating all Twinkies or all broccoli" people that pinuplove mentioned.
These days I eat much more of a little bit of everything, but that's after a lot of reading here and trying it for my self.
That's really a disgusting strategy by the way. I used to not even be able to go shopping without arguing with myself over everything that went into the cart.
Back in the day I did an experiment with primal/paleo eating and got really involved in the 'lifestyle' (began hanging out on a couple of forums/spent a lot of time reading/listening through the (cult) leaders materials etc). It was the only time I ever found myself in a situation where I started placing value on foods and started down the rabbit hole of 'good' food and 'bad' food. It led me to a really bad place with my mental health. I became obsessive about food, began believing that certain foods were poisoning me, began spending money I didn't have to buy the 'good' food etc etc. Thankfully I was able to get out of it after a few months, but it was a pretty scary experience!
That runs deep too. I weighed in 2lbs heavy this morning and the very first lousy thought was "what did I eat that was bad for me?" What the heck, ya know?
What's really telling, for me anyway, is that after some time eating a bit of whatever floats my boat, I actually feel stronger, higher sense of well being than when I was stuck in that trap.
2 -
French_Peasant wrote: »Here's Kevin Halls new study with ultra-processed foods, I don't think this has been linked yet?
https://osf.io/preprints/nutrixiv/w3zh2
WOW that study is insane! I would honestly stab myself after a single day on the ultra processed diet--just scrolling through the pictures makes me feel like heaving. (I would be down with the PB&J and the Egg McMuffin type thing, however, and I have the liquid scrambled eggs every morning from our cafeteria at work but they seem fine to me). That diet is nasty!
However, I have to note, they really tipped the scales toward one particular subset of ultra-processed food. They did not include vegetarian or protein-heavy, organic frozen dinners full of veggies, 100% whole grain bread, pizza loaded down with veggies, fruits at every meal canned in LIGHT syrup, frozen veggie burgers on whole grain buns, pasta with sauce very heavy on an assortment of veg, etc. all of which fall under the ultra processed rubric because they have additives to extend shelf life and come in fancy packaging that give the appearance of healthfulness. Also, what was the canned corn doing in there? That's not ultra-processed.
Still, I can believe that the less-processed diet would handily beat out the ultraprocessed diet on weight management.
This did catch my attention from the fasted blood testing:
"Interestingly, the appetite-suppressing hormone PYY increased during the unprocessed diet as compared with both the ultra-processed diet and baseline. In contrast, the hunger hormone ghrelin was decreased during the unprocessed diet compared to baseline."
Guilty admission: I haven't read the study yet, but plan to.
It seems like they'd want to test a relatively extremely "ultraprocessed" diet that's fairly typical of things commonly eaten. The things you list as being included seem to fit that.
I don't understand why they'd test with the closest-to-real-food alternatives that just barely meet the "ultraprocessed" definition - your "tipped scales" list. Around here, there may be people who eat that way, but it's not the standard "ultraprocessed" way of eating in the wild, statistically speaking.
It seems liked you'd want to test the common case, not the "just barely qualifies" uncommon case.
If I've misread this, one I've checked out the study, I'll come back and admit it.
Yes, I am sure they did it in order to be as dramatic as possible. But science is not about drama; it's about a dispassionate look at the facts based on the categories that have been created. Their specific choices should have been analyzed and discussed in the limitations. (and I just skimmed it, so maybe I missed the discussion). They are citing the NOVA parameters but not disclosing that there is a huge chunk of category 4. They are creating an "All Twinkies" straw man.
I would have actually liked to see that subset tested separately under the same conditions.
Do you guys really think the meals presented in the ultra-processed diet are the common case, where people are eating 100% ultra-processed? Not even any fresh pico or guac for their tortilla chips?1 -
Just a question - with the obvious exception of caloric intake, are there any other lines you folks draw, based on how a food is processed?
I won't eat pink slime - beef trimmings, taken from the more likely to be contaminated part of the meat, then sterilized using ammonia, ground into an unrecognizable paste, and mixed with regular beef so the consumer can't tell - because the whole idea is disgusting, and to me, it does still faintly smell of ammonia when cooking. I remember when Wendy's swapped to it and I didn't know, I just knew I really used to enjoy burgers and then suddenly it was like they had no flavor. Looked it up trying to figure out what changed and there it was. I think most places have stopped using it now (I remember reading all but one pink slime factory went out of business) but there was a period when it was nearly impossible to avoid because the lobbyists had gotten it so that it wasn't required to label it in any way differently from normal ground beef. So you can adulterate my food with ammonia, but it doesn't have to go on the ingredients list, because it's not an "ingredient," it's something used in processing?
Anyway since I almost never eat burgers anymore unless it's a special occasion it's become a moot point.3 -
I'll also link an interesting post from @Aaron_K123
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10652594/the-issue-with-processed-foods-opinion/p1
Question: what's the difference between processed and ultraprocessed?
It's a little like the difference between blue and violet, ask two people and you'll get two different answers.
As a general rule, industrial mass processing of food isn't done to make it healthier. The main reasons for processing are cost control, and to make food more palatable. It's good that our food isn't cripplingly expensive, there are deadly riots over the cost of rice in parts of the world. It's also good that our food is yummy. But there's probably a line. And everybody gets to decide where it's drawn. It's ok if some people think a tomato from the garden is healthier than a can of tomato sauce with lots of added sugar and sodium.3 -
Just a question - with the obvious exception of caloric intake, are there any other lines you folks draw, based on how a food is processed?
I have a few preferences, which I will admit are kind of arbitrary and probably make zero difference, but here they are:- Kosher hot dogs
- Olive oil bottled (and preferably sourced) in the US
- Fish sourced and packaged in the US or Canada
- No chicken 'patties' or 'nuggets' where the meat is processed and then formed back into a shape
2 -
Just a question - with the obvious exception of caloric intake, are there any other lines you folks draw, based on how a food is processed?
I have a few preferences, which I will admit are kind of arbitrary and probably make zero difference, but here they are:- Kosher hot dogs
- Olive oil bottled (and preferably sourced) in the US
- Fish sourced and packaged in the US or Canada
- No chicken 'patties' or 'nuggets' where the meat is processed and then formed back into a shape
But it's hard to carve the dinosaur nugget shapes out of an actual chicken cutlet7 -
rheddmobile wrote: »Just a question - with the obvious exception of caloric intake, are there any other lines you folks draw, based on how a food is processed?
I won't eat pink slime - beef trimmings, taken from the more likely to be contaminated part of the meat, then sterilized using ammonia, ground into an unrecognizable paste, and mixed with regular beef so the consumer can't tell - because the whole idea is disgusting, and to me, it does still faintly smell of ammonia when cooking. I remember when Wendy's swapped to it and I didn't know, I just knew I really used to enjoy burgers and then suddenly it was like they had no flavor. Looked it up trying to figure out what changed and there it was. I think most places have stopped using it now (I remember reading all but one pink slime factory went out of business) but there was a period when it was nearly impossible to avoid because the lobbyists had gotten it so that it wasn't required to label it in any way differently from normal ground beef. So you can adulterate my food with ammonia, but it doesn't have to go on the ingredients list, because it's not an "ingredient," it's something used in processing?
Anyway since I almost never eat burgers anymore unless it's a special occasion it's become a moot point.
I am sitting in my truck and my jaw is literally hanging open. I've heard of pink slime, who hasn't by now? But ...well, I know some sources are questionable, so I'm hoping livescience.com is reputable, and they say exactly what you said and I just ate hamburger 2 nights ago. I obviously don't know if it had the filler or not, but just the thought of ingesting ammonia, even in minute amounts is revolting.
https://www.livescience.com/33786-pink-slime.html
jeez
0 -
rheddmobile wrote: »Just a question - with the obvious exception of caloric intake, are there any other lines you folks draw, based on how a food is processed?
I won't eat pink slime - beef trimmings, taken from the more likely to be contaminated part of the meat, then sterilized using ammonia, ground into an unrecognizable paste, and mixed with regular beef so the consumer can't tell - because the whole idea is disgusting, and to me, it does still faintly smell of ammonia when cooking. I remember when Wendy's swapped to it and I didn't know, I just knew I really used to enjoy burgers and then suddenly it was like they had no flavor. Looked it up trying to figure out what changed and there it was. I think most places have stopped using it now (I remember reading all but one pink slime factory went out of business) but there was a period when it was nearly impossible to avoid because the lobbyists had gotten it so that it wasn't required to label it in any way differently from normal ground beef. So you can adulterate my food with ammonia, but it doesn't have to go on the ingredients list, because it's not an "ingredient," it's something used in processing?
Anyway since I almost never eat burgers anymore unless it's a special occasion it's become a moot point.
I am sitting in my truck and my jaw is literally hanging open. I've heard of pink slime, who hasn't by now? But ...well, I know some sources are questionable, so I'm hoping livescience.com is reputable, and they say exactly what you said and I just ate hamburger 2 nights ago. I obviously don't know if it had the filler or not, but just the thought of ingesting ammonia, even in minute amounts is revolting.
https://www.livescience.com/33786-pink-slime.html
jeez
Dude, remember the video!
Also remember that unnecessary/inappropriate stress, in and of itself, is bad for you.
You can't un-eat it.6 -
French_Peasant wrote: »French_Peasant wrote: »Here's Kevin Halls new study with ultra-processed foods, I don't think this has been linked yet?
https://osf.io/preprints/nutrixiv/w3zh2
WOW that study is insane! I would honestly stab myself after a single day on the ultra processed diet--just scrolling through the pictures makes me feel like heaving. (I would be down with the PB&J and the Egg McMuffin type thing, however, and I have the liquid scrambled eggs every morning from our cafeteria at work but they seem fine to me). That diet is nasty!
However, I have to note, they really tipped the scales toward one particular subset of ultra-processed food. They did not include vegetarian or protein-heavy, organic frozen dinners full of veggies, 100% whole grain bread, pizza loaded down with veggies, fruits at every meal canned in LIGHT syrup, frozen veggie burgers on whole grain buns, pasta with sauce very heavy on an assortment of veg, etc. all of which fall under the ultra processed rubric because they have additives to extend shelf life and come in fancy packaging that give the appearance of healthfulness. Also, what was the canned corn doing in there? That's not ultra-processed.
Still, I can believe that the less-processed diet would handily beat out the ultraprocessed diet on weight management.
This did catch my attention from the fasted blood testing:
"Interestingly, the appetite-suppressing hormone PYY increased during the unprocessed diet as compared with both the ultra-processed diet and baseline. In contrast, the hunger hormone ghrelin was decreased during the unprocessed diet compared to baseline."
Guilty admission: I haven't read the study yet, but plan to.
It seems like they'd want to test a relatively extremely "ultraprocessed" diet that's fairly typical of things commonly eaten. The things you list as being included seem to fit that.
I don't understand why they'd test with the closest-to-real-food alternatives that just barely meet the "ultraprocessed" definition - your "tipped scales" list. Around here, there may be people who eat that way, but it's not the standard "ultraprocessed" way of eating in the wild, statistically speaking.
It seems liked you'd want to test the common case, not the "just barely qualifies" uncommon case.
If I've misread this, one I've checked out the study, I'll come back and admit it.
Yes, I am sure they did it in order to be as dramatic as possible. But science is not about drama; it's about a dispassionate look at the facts based on the categories that have been created. Their specific choices should have been analyzed and discussed in the limitations. (and I just skimmed it, so maybe I missed the discussion). They are citing the NOVA parameters but not disclosing that there is a huge chunk of category 4. They are creating an "All Twinkies" straw man.
I would have actually liked to see that subset tested separately under the same conditions.
Do you guys really think the meals presented in the ultra-processed diet are the common case, where people are eating 100% ultra-processed? Not even any fresh pico or guac for their tortilla chips?
I skimmed through the study eager to get to the point with the actual daily menus, and was glad that not only did they list the foods, they had the brand names and a photo of each meal. What struck me, aside from some of the comments you and others have made about the extreme nature of the unprocessed foods they selected, is the VOLUME of food in those pictures. I went back to make sure I understood the study itself, are they saying they presented the participants (10 men and 10 women) that full amount of food, roughly 3,800 calories in both diets, and then they measured to see how much they actually consumed (energy intake) with the assumption that if you have a giant plate of food in front of you, that if you are eating the ultraprocessed stuff you'll keep eating but if it is the "unprocessed" (which let's be honest, many of the foods in that group were processed as well) you will be satiated and stop eating?
The plates/portions were gigantic and I'm just not sure, if people are isolated in a study (I think that's what it said, correct) away from their jobs and normal day to day activities, wouldn't you tend to eat more just out of boredom if it's sitting in front of you? Ultraprocessed or otherwise?
I also thought this must have been an interesting day in the respiratory chamber:
Day 5 (Respiratory Chamber)DinnerBeef and bean chili (Hormel) Shredded cheddar and Monterey Jack cheese (Glenview Farms)Sour cream (Glenview Farms)Tortilla chips (Tostitos)Salsa (del Posado)Diet Ginger Ale (Shasta)Peaches, canned in heavy syrup
But to your question in the bolded - I looked at that ultraprocessed diet and saw things that I eat... but yeah for me there would be other "un" processed or "less" processed things with it. The only vegetable I saw was canned corn. Just as I don't think it's realistic that the vast majority of people eat the way this study depicts for ultraprocessed without accidentally stumbling on some fresh fruits or vegetables or even a bagged salad with dressing on it - I also am always skeptical of people who claim to never use or eat any sort of processed foods. I mean really, you make every dressing from scratch? You never buy bags of frozen vegetables? You never eat baked chips with a sandwich for a quick lunch at home or while out running errands?
I know we are all in agreement that the way the information is presented is not accurately reflecting reality I just wish there was a way to make that case and get people to understand the middle ground that these "studies" and their conclusions seem to ignore.
7 -
rheddmobile wrote: »Just a question - with the obvious exception of caloric intake, are there any other lines you folks draw, based on how a food is processed?
I won't eat pink slime - beef trimmings, taken from the more likely to be contaminated part of the meat, then sterilized using ammonia, ground into an unrecognizable paste, and mixed with regular beef so the consumer can't tell - because the whole idea is disgusting, and to me, it does still faintly smell of ammonia when cooking. I remember when Wendy's swapped to it and I didn't know, I just knew I really used to enjoy burgers and then suddenly it was like they had no flavor. Looked it up trying to figure out what changed and there it was. I think most places have stopped using it now (I remember reading all but one pink slime factory went out of business) but there was a period when it was nearly impossible to avoid because the lobbyists had gotten it so that it wasn't required to label it in any way differently from normal ground beef. So you can adulterate my food with ammonia, but it doesn't have to go on the ingredients list, because it's not an "ingredient," it's something used in processing?
Anyway since I almost never eat burgers anymore unless it's a special occasion it's become a moot point.
I am sitting in my truck and my jaw is literally hanging open. I've heard of pink slime, who hasn't by now? But ...well, I know some sources are questionable, so I'm hoping livescience.com is reputable, and they say exactly what you said and I just ate hamburger 2 nights ago. I obviously don't know if it had the filler or not, but just the thought of ingesting ammonia, even in minute amounts is revolting.
https://www.livescience.com/33786-pink-slime.html
jeez
Dude, remember the video!
Also remember that unnecessary/inappropriate stress, in and of itself, is bad for you.
You can't un-eat it.
2 -
Just a question - with the obvious exception of caloric intake, are there any other lines you folks draw, based on how a food is processed?
I have a few preferences, which I will admit are kind of arbitrary and probably make zero difference, but here they are:- Kosher hot dogs
- Olive oil bottled (and preferably sourced) in the US
- Fish sourced and packaged in the US or Canada
- No chicken 'patties' or 'nuggets' where the meat is processed and then formed back into a shape
But it's hard to carve the dinosaur nugget shapes out of an actual chicken cutlet
My poor children were so mistreated.1 -
French_Peasant wrote: »French_Peasant wrote: »Here's Kevin Halls new study with ultra-processed foods, I don't think this has been linked yet?
https://osf.io/preprints/nutrixiv/w3zh2
WOW that study is insane! I would honestly stab myself after a single day on the ultra processed diet--just scrolling through the pictures makes me feel like heaving. (I would be down with the PB&J and the Egg McMuffin type thing, however, and I have the liquid scrambled eggs every morning from our cafeteria at work but they seem fine to me). That diet is nasty!
However, I have to note, they really tipped the scales toward one particular subset of ultra-processed food. They did not include vegetarian or protein-heavy, organic frozen dinners full of veggies, 100% whole grain bread, pizza loaded down with veggies, fruits at every meal canned in LIGHT syrup, frozen veggie burgers on whole grain buns, pasta with sauce very heavy on an assortment of veg, etc. all of which fall under the ultra processed rubric because they have additives to extend shelf life and come in fancy packaging that give the appearance of healthfulness. Also, what was the canned corn doing in there? That's not ultra-processed.
Still, I can believe that the less-processed diet would handily beat out the ultraprocessed diet on weight management.
This did catch my attention from the fasted blood testing:
"Interestingly, the appetite-suppressing hormone PYY increased during the unprocessed diet as compared with both the ultra-processed diet and baseline. In contrast, the hunger hormone ghrelin was decreased during the unprocessed diet compared to baseline."
Guilty admission: I haven't read the study yet, but plan to.
It seems like they'd want to test a relatively extremely "ultraprocessed" diet that's fairly typical of things commonly eaten. The things you list as being included seem to fit that.
I don't understand why they'd test with the closest-to-real-food alternatives that just barely meet the "ultraprocessed" definition - your "tipped scales" list. Around here, there may be people who eat that way, but it's not the standard "ultraprocessed" way of eating in the wild, statistically speaking.
It seems liked you'd want to test the common case, not the "just barely qualifies" uncommon case.
If I've misread this, one I've checked out the study, I'll come back and admit it.
Yes, I am sure they did it in order to be as dramatic as possible. But science is not about drama; it's about a dispassionate look at the facts based on the categories that have been created. Their specific choices should have been analyzed and discussed in the limitations. (and I just skimmed it, so maybe I missed the discussion). They are citing the NOVA parameters but not disclosing that there is a huge chunk of category 4. They are creating an "All Twinkies" straw man.
I would have actually liked to see that subset tested separately under the same conditions.
Do you guys really think the meals presented in the ultra-processed diet are the common case, where people are eating 100% ultra-processed? Not even any fresh pico or guac for their tortilla chips?
No, it's not about drama. But I don't think this is about drama, nor a straw man situation, either.
Yes, they picked an extreme case. If you want to see if there are behavioral or outcome differences, you don't start by minimizing the differences in the cases. At this point in the development of actual tested conclusions or insights, trying to minimize the intake differences would be a bad study design. You start with stark cases. Also, they use the NOVA definitions, because those are the current standard for such studies. As a scientist, you don't just start making up new definitions: That's a different kind of research trajectory than this study means to pursue.
This is an early study, possibly the first of its particular type. It's an inpatient study, which is remarkable. They measured a bonanza of data points, and studied all of the patients on each of the diets (2 week period for each, so a total of 28 days for 20 people, which is remarkably long for an inpatient study). They matched the nutrients/calories presented in each group.
I think this is all very useful, and interesting, personally. I see no point in starting by comparing an "unprocessed" diet to a "close as we can get to being unprocessed without actually violating the definition of "ultraprocessed"" diet.
BTW, the "untraprocessed" diet had salsa with their taco and with their chips (and it looks like about the same amount as would be served in non-ethnic restaurants, with similar foods). (But, yes, not fresh pico: Salsa. Which is what most people I know would actually eat in routine daily life, me included, and probably consider to be about equally healthy.)
Overall, the ultra-processed diet looks fairly nutritious to me: Much more nutritious and less extreme than I would've guessed from your comments. They have veggies, beans, fruit. It probably includes more veggies/fruits than quite a few people eat (based on my admittedly limited observation of other people in my life, and reading MFP diaries). Yes, I think some people in my life would eat rather like the "unprocessed" case routinely, but of course few people in real life eat 100% "ultra-processed", either. But the overall character of that way of eating doesn't look that crazy.
Also, the "unprocessed" diet includes what we usually talk about here as nutritionally useful processed foods (like pasta, yogurt, frozen corn, skim milk, commercial fish and meat from sources like Tyson).
There are some fascinating nuggets in there, amongst the individual in-process and end-point measurements. It's worth reading closely, IMO. I don't see them as presenting this as the be-all and end-all, either. The formal conclusion is pretty moderate, and even delivers a polite science-y reality check on simply saying people should avoid eating ultra-processed foods.
We'll have to agree to disagree about the "drama" and "straw man" interpretation, I guess. :flowerforyou:4 -
French_Peasant wrote: »French_Peasant wrote: »Here's Kevin Halls new study with ultra-processed foods, I don't think this has been linked yet?
https://osf.io/preprints/nutrixiv/w3zh2
WOW that study is insane! I would honestly stab myself after a single day on the ultra processed diet--just scrolling through the pictures makes me feel like heaving. (I would be down with the PB&J and the Egg McMuffin type thing, however, and I have the liquid scrambled eggs every morning from our cafeteria at work but they seem fine to me). That diet is nasty!
However, I have to note, they really tipped the scales toward one particular subset of ultra-processed food. They did not include vegetarian or protein-heavy, organic frozen dinners full of veggies, 100% whole grain bread, pizza loaded down with veggies, fruits at every meal canned in LIGHT syrup, frozen veggie burgers on whole grain buns, pasta with sauce very heavy on an assortment of veg, etc. all of which fall under the ultra processed rubric because they have additives to extend shelf life and come in fancy packaging that give the appearance of healthfulness. Also, what was the canned corn doing in there? That's not ultra-processed.
Still, I can believe that the less-processed diet would handily beat out the ultraprocessed diet on weight management.
This did catch my attention from the fasted blood testing:
"Interestingly, the appetite-suppressing hormone PYY increased during the unprocessed diet as compared with both the ultra-processed diet and baseline. In contrast, the hunger hormone ghrelin was decreased during the unprocessed diet compared to baseline."
Guilty admission: I haven't read the study yet, but plan to.
It seems like they'd want to test a relatively extremely "ultraprocessed" diet that's fairly typical of things commonly eaten. The things you list as being included seem to fit that.
I don't understand why they'd test with the closest-to-real-food alternatives that just barely meet the "ultraprocessed" definition - your "tipped scales" list. Around here, there may be people who eat that way, but it's not the standard "ultraprocessed" way of eating in the wild, statistically speaking.
It seems liked you'd want to test the common case, not the "just barely qualifies" uncommon case.
If I've misread this, one I've checked out the study, I'll come back and admit it.
Yes, I am sure they did it in order to be as dramatic as possible. But science is not about drama; it's about a dispassionate look at the facts based on the categories that have been created. Their specific choices should have been analyzed and discussed in the limitations. (and I just skimmed it, so maybe I missed the discussion). They are citing the NOVA parameters but not disclosing that there is a huge chunk of category 4. They are creating an "All Twinkies" straw man.
I would have actually liked to see that subset tested separately under the same conditions.
Do you guys really think the meals presented in the ultra-processed diet are the common case, where people are eating 100% ultra-processed? Not even any fresh pico or guac for their tortilla chips?
No, it's not about drama. But I don't think this is about drama, nor a straw man situation, either.
Yes, they picked an extreme case. If you want to see if there are behavioral or outcome differences, you don't start by minimizing the differences in the cases. At this point in the development of actual tested conclusions or insights, trying to minimize the intake differences would be a bad study design. You start with stark cases. Also, they use the NOVA definitions, because those are the current standard for such studies. As a scientist, you don't just start making up new definitions: That's a different kind of research trajectory than this study means to pursue.
This is an early study, possibly the first of its particular type. It's an inpatient study, which is remarkable. They measured a bonanza of data points, and studied all of the patients on each of the diets (2 week period for each, so a total of 28 days for 20 people, which is remarkably long for an inpatient study). They matched the nutrients/calories presented in each group.
I think this is all very useful, and interesting, personally. I see no point in starting by comparing an "unprocessed" diet to a "close as we can get to being unprocessed without actually violating the definition of "ultraprocessed"" diet.
BTW, the "untraprocessed" diet had salsa with their taco and with their chips (and it looks like about the same amount as would be served in non-ethnic restaurants, with similar foods). (But, yes, not fresh pico: Salsa. Which is what most people I know would actually eat in routine daily life, me included, and probably consider to be about equally healthy.)
Overall, the ultra-processed diet looks fairly nutritious to me: Much more nutritious and less extreme than I would've guessed from your comments. They have veggies, beans, fruit. It probably includes more veggies/fruits than quite a few people eat (based on my admittedly limited observation of other people in my life, and reading MFP diaries). Yes, I think some people in my life would eat rather like the "unprocessed" case routinely, but of course few people in real life eat 100% "ultra-processed", either. But the overall character of that way of eating doesn't look that crazy.
Also, the "unprocessed" diet includes what we usually talk about here as nutritionally useful processed foods (like pasta, yogurt, frozen corn, skim milk, commercial fish and meat from sources like Tyson).
There are some fascinating nuggets in there, amongst the individual in-process and end-point measurements. It's worth reading closely, IMO. I don't see them as presenting this as the be-all and end-all, either. The formal conclusion is pretty moderate, and even delivers a polite science-y reality check on simply saying people should avoid eating ultra-processed foods.
We'll have to agree to disagree about the "drama" and "straw man" interpretation, I guess. :flowerforyou:
Nailed it. What a thoughtful assessment of the study and the interpretations that we are drawing here.
I also wanted to say, because I'm dealing with some frustrating negativity in other social media channels I participate in, that I always appreciate your level headedness and positivity in your communication style. You could teach a masters lever class in polite discourse on the internet.4 -
rheddmobile wrote: »Just a question - with the obvious exception of caloric intake, are there any other lines you folks draw, based on how a food is processed?
I won't eat pink slime - beef trimmings, taken from the more likely to be contaminated part of the meat, then sterilized using ammonia, ground into an unrecognizable paste, and mixed with regular beef so the consumer can't tell - because the whole idea is disgusting, and to me, it does still faintly smell of ammonia when cooking. I remember when Wendy's swapped to it and I didn't know, I just knew I really used to enjoy burgers and then suddenly it was like they had no flavor. Looked it up trying to figure out what changed and there it was. I think most places have stopped using it now (I remember reading all but one pink slime factory went out of business) but there was a period when it was nearly impossible to avoid because the lobbyists had gotten it so that it wasn't required to label it in any way differently from normal ground beef. So you can adulterate my food with ammonia, but it doesn't have to go on the ingredients list, because it's not an "ingredient," it's something used in processing?
Anyway since I almost never eat burgers anymore unless it's a special occasion it's become a moot point.
I am sitting in my truck and my jaw is literally hanging open. I've heard of pink slime, who hasn't by now? But ...well, I know some sources are questionable, so I'm hoping livescience.com is reputable, and they say exactly what you said and I just ate hamburger 2 nights ago. I obviously don't know if it had the filler or not, but just the thought of ingesting ammonia, even in minute amounts is revolting.
https://www.livescience.com/33786-pink-slime.html
jeez
How small an amount is revolting? Your body is generating ammonia from from various amino acids all the time and then packaging it up in the liver into urea.3 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »Just a question - with the obvious exception of caloric intake, are there any other lines you folks draw, based on how a food is processed?
I won't eat pink slime - beef trimmings, taken from the more likely to be contaminated part of the meat, then sterilized using ammonia, ground into an unrecognizable paste, and mixed with regular beef so the consumer can't tell - because the whole idea is disgusting, and to me, it does still faintly smell of ammonia when cooking. I remember when Wendy's swapped to it and I didn't know, I just knew I really used to enjoy burgers and then suddenly it was like they had no flavor. Looked it up trying to figure out what changed and there it was. I think most places have stopped using it now (I remember reading all but one pink slime factory went out of business) but there was a period when it was nearly impossible to avoid because the lobbyists had gotten it so that it wasn't required to label it in any way differently from normal ground beef. So you can adulterate my food with ammonia, but it doesn't have to go on the ingredients list, because it's not an "ingredient," it's something used in processing?
Anyway since I almost never eat burgers anymore unless it's a special occasion it's become a moot point.
I am sitting in my truck and my jaw is literally hanging open. I've heard of pink slime, who hasn't by now? But ...well, I know some sources are questionable, so I'm hoping livescience.com is reputable, and they say exactly what you said and I just ate hamburger 2 nights ago. I obviously don't know if it had the filler or not, but just the thought of ingesting ammonia, even in minute amounts is revolting.
https://www.livescience.com/33786-pink-slime.html
jeez
How small an amount is revolting? Your body is generating ammonia from from various amino acids all the time and then packaging it up in the liver into urea.
It does?
I'm....seeing my pattern here, getting an education as well, but maybe it's time I simply read more and spoke less. Don't get me wrong, the info is appreciated, but my cycle of getting grossed out, then finding out it was over not much at all, repeating the pattern..what...4 times today??
Time for the older, obviously less knowledgeable guy to bow out...you folks are quite patient by the way...I'll wait for topics I might be able to actually speak to2
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