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Is anyone confused?
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I'm quoting this because I'm not sure who you're replying to? Mentioned me but quoted Duck_Puddle and nutmegoreo responded...so...nutmegoreo wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »Duck_Puddle wrote: »
This. IMHO it is only confusing because people don't know how to properly vet sources.
This is important from my perspective because, while I recognize really obvious snake oil pitches for what they are, some of what's out there uses language that a lay person like me has a difficult time understanding to begin with, much less knowing exactly where to go to vet the sources I'm using.
What's helping me (because my mind is to busy for my own good sometimes) is just asking questions here and trusting the "peer review" type answers each question gets, and also remembering 35 years ago I didn't want or need anything complex, whether routine or supplement, to stay in excellent shape.
It's easy to see why folks get confused imo.
This is very true. 50 years ago, if you wanted to publish drivel - you had to get a publisher or a magazine to agree to publish your drivel then you had to get someone to actually pick it up and read it. Now you just need a free Wordpress account, the right font choice, proper spelling and some good graphics and it looks like your drivel is coming from the WHO. But some info is good. So how is your average person going to know? What I’m reading makes sense. It might be entirely garbage, but it makes sense and this blog as 2 million followers so it must be right. Right?
And a lot of what’s out there is drivel. And also a lot of what’s out there is a “fit” person talking about what they did to achieve that. Nevermind that simply achieving results doesn’t mean that one has taken the most direct path. If I wake up and pray to the sun god every morning before I do my workout-are my results because I prayed to the sun god? That’s where studies are helpful. Just because someone has done something doesn’t mean it was necessary, helpful or that the same person couldn’t have achieved more by doing something different.
This makes sense Phirrgus.
Ideally the average person can use best judgement to decipher between relevant and irrelevant pointers from a fit person. Having someone explain how they achieved success in a way you want to achieve success is often considered invaluable. Nothing is perfect as a lot of studies have so many variables including short durations, small samples, bias, limited control over the accuracy of the data, the type of subjects used etc.
For Example:
A study about "exercise" and "metabolism" that studies a group of marathon runners likely doesn't provide much insight to a guy like me whose primary form of "exercise" is weights.
Or
Some people argue about tiny details in a study that may have a fraction of importance on the end goal and then that study really confuses people about what they should do.
Or
Sometimes studies rely on people self reporting what they did, ate or how much rest they had.
These kinds of thing seems very common and it is likely just as confusing, if not more confusing than the fit person explaining their process to get the way they are.
But even the "fit guy" has a lot of problems as drugs is often hidden. This seems more common than most people realize. Hopefully the "fit guy" can provide enough information to address the drugs concern (if it is a concern for that person). But then again, magazines constantly misrepresent results from a natural or drugs perspective.
Tough go. Keeping it simple has worked for me.
So, are you saying you think that individual anecdote is more valuable than scientific studies?
Just to address the turn the thread seems to have taken, I am not and will not advocate anecdote over scientific studies, although in the absence of scientific information anecdotes can at times be helpful.
My primary point had to do with simply not being able to distinguish between the validity of certain claims due to my lack of knowledge.
Which is where this little guy >?< comes into play.
5 -
FitFamilyGuy wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »Duck_Puddle wrote: »
This. IMHO it is only confusing because people don't know how to properly vet sources.
This is important from my perspective because, while I recognize really obvious snake oil pitches for what they are, some of what's out there uses language that a lay person like me has a difficult time understanding to begin with, much less knowing exactly where to go to vet the sources I'm using.
What's helping me (because my mind is to busy for my own good sometimes) is just asking questions here and trusting the "peer review" type answers each question gets, and also remembering 35 years ago I didn't want or need anything complex, whether routine or supplement, to stay in excellent shape.
It's easy to see why folks get confused imo.
This is very true. 50 years ago, if you wanted to publish drivel - you had to get a publisher or a magazine to agree to publish your drivel then you had to get someone to actually pick it up and read it. Now you just need a free Wordpress account, the right font choice, proper spelling and some good graphics and it looks like your drivel is coming from the WHO. But some info is good. So how is your average person going to know? What I’m reading makes sense. It might be entirely garbage, but it makes sense and this blog as 2 million followers so it must be right. Right?
And a lot of what’s out there is drivel. And also a lot of what’s out there is a “fit” person talking about what they did to achieve that. Nevermind that simply achieving results doesn’t mean that one has taken the most direct path. If I wake up and pray to the sun god every morning before I do my workout-are my results because I prayed to the sun god? That’s where studies are helpful. Just because someone has done something doesn’t mean it was necessary, helpful or that the same person couldn’t have achieved more by doing something different.
This makes sense Phirrgus.
Ideally the average person can use best judgement to decipher between relevant and irrelevant pointers from a fit person. Having someone explain how they achieved success in a way you want to achieve success is often considered invaluable. Nothing is perfect as a lot of studies have so many variables including short durations, small samples, bias, limited control over the accuracy of the data, the type of subjects used etc.
For Example:
A study about "exercise" and "metabolism" that studies a group of marathon runners likely doesn't provide much insight to a guy like me whose primary form of "exercise" is weights.
Or
Some people argue about tiny details in a study that may have a fraction of importance on the end goal and then that study really confuses people about what they should do.
Or
Sometimes studies rely on people self reporting what they did, ate or how much rest they had.
These kinds of thing seems very common and it is likely just as confusing, if not more confusing than the fit person explaining their process to get the way they are.
But even the "fit guy" has a lot of problems as drugs is often hidden. This seems more common than most people realize. Hopefully the "fit guy" can provide enough information to address the drugs concern (if it is a concern for that person). But then again, magazines constantly misrepresent results from a natural or drugs perspective.
Tough go. Keeping it simple has worked for me.
So, are you saying you think that individual anecdote is more valuable than scientific studies?
No I am not.
I agree that people can get cause and effect wrong including the "fit guy". I agree that people can have bias. We are all human just like the scientist conducting a study.
I enjoy reading about facts, data, science and theories that others are trying. I try many of them too! I learn from others and I learn from my mistakes. Learning isn't one dimensional.
However, my personal experience, my passion, my research and my personal real world results based on my personal actions do mean more to me than a study that tells me what "should happen" to me.
If I wanted to learn how to play in the NHL, personally, I would be way more interested in learning from Sidney Crosby and asking how he got there than I would be from a commentator who did not play in the NHL but does get paid full time to watch and study the game.
I would rather learn about SEO from someone who built up a site and is getting huge traffic from search than I would someone who studies SEO and offers a course on it.
Both approaches have flaws but I do trust my results over others theories and tests. If I had the chance to talk to someone who achieved what I wanted to achieve, I would be thrilled and I would place a huge amount of value on that. If I see something about a test finding I would be intrigued and likely want to learn more and verify its accuracy the best that I can.
Finding who knows SEO is simple, you search for SEO specialists and hire the top result. I'm still unsure about how I get Wikipedia to do my SEO though.2 -
FitFamilyGuy wrote: »Duck_Puddle wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »Duck_Puddle wrote: »
This. IMHO it is only confusing because people don't know how to properly vet sources.
This is important from my perspective because, while I recognize really obvious snake oil pitches for what they are, some of what's out there uses language that a lay person like me has a difficult time understanding to begin with, much less knowing exactly where to go to vet the sources I'm using.
What's helping me (because my mind is to busy for my own good sometimes) is just asking questions here and trusting the "peer review" type answers each question gets, and also remembering 35 years ago I didn't want or need anything complex, whether routine or supplement, to stay in excellent shape.
It's easy to see why folks get confused imo.
This is very true. 50 years ago, if you wanted to publish drivel - you had to get a publisher or a magazine to agree to publish your drivel then you had to get someone to actually pick it up and read it. Now you just need a free Wordpress account, the right font choice, proper spelling and some good graphics and it looks like your drivel is coming from the WHO. But some info is good. So how is your average person going to know? What I’m reading makes sense. It might be entirely garbage, but it makes sense and this blog as 2 million followers so it must be right. Right?
And a lot of what’s out there is drivel. And also a lot of what’s out there is a “fit” person talking about what they did to achieve that. Nevermind that simply achieving results doesn’t mean that one has taken the most direct path. If I wake up and pray to the sun god every morning before I do my workout-are my results because I prayed to the sun god? That’s where studies are helpful. Just because someone has done something doesn’t mean it was necessary, helpful or that the same person couldn’t have achieved more by doing something different.
This makes sense Phirrgus.
Ideally the average person can use best judgement to decipher between relevant and irrelevant pointers from a fit person. Having someone explain how they achieved success in a way you want to achieve success is often considered invaluable. Nothing is perfect as a lot of studies have so many variables including short durations, small samples, bias, limited control over the accuracy of the data, the type of subjects used etc.
For Example:
A study about "exercise" and "metabolism" that studies a group of marathon runners likely doesn't provide much insight to a guy like me whose primary form of "exercise" is weights.
Or
Some people argue about tiny details in a study that may have a fraction of importance on the end goal and then that study really confuses people about what they should do.
Or
Sometimes studies rely on people self reporting what they did, ate or how much rest they had.
These kinds of thing seems very common and it is likely just as confusing, if not more confusing than the fit person explaining their process to get the way they are.
But even the "fit guy" has a lot of problems as drugs is often hidden. This seems more common than most people realize. Hopefully the "fit guy" can provide enough information to address the drugs concern (if it is a concern for that person). But then again, magazines constantly misrepresent results from a natural or drugs perspective.
Tough go. Keeping it simple has worked for me.
Actually- the mere fact that “fit guy” appears fit doesn’t mean he has anything valuable to say.
He achieved results perhaps because of, but equally likely in spite of, his methods.
99% of what is out there is irrelevant nonsense to begin with.
99% of actual studies minimize the noise because no, “fit guy” didn’t get fit because he does IF Keto vegan gluten free whey protein bomb shakes within a 27 minute window after only working legs on the 7th Tuesday of each full blood moon.
Also-“fit guy”s results are irrelevant to me if my goals are about race times and idgaf what my BF% is or how “lean” I look. So even within the context of lifting, my goals are for race performance.
Fit guy’s anecdotal info is nearly useless. He achieved results in spite of what he was doing. He also achieved results that aren’t aligned to my goals. But the internet is full of fit guys sharing their “knowledge” and “expertise”
Years ago, we went out to dinner with my son to celebrate his getting his driver’s license. He insisted on driving himself. We all left at the same time. He got to the restaurant an hour after we did. It was a 7 minute drive (for us). He also needed to borrow money to get some gas because he used all of his on the drive there. Did he get there? Yep. Did he take the best route? I suppose that depends on your definition of best. The internet is FULL of my son giving directions to the restauarant.
Studies are the GPS. Maybe they don’t have every address on planet earth-but I’ll take my chances with that over my kid any day.
Interesting Duck_Puddle. You should stick with that approach, especially if it is working for you!
If you want to learn how to improve your race time, I'd ask the fastest racer you can find. I wouldn't be asking "fit guy" about how to improve my racing times.
In case you missed it, I addressed this in my last post:No I am not.
I agree that people can get cause and effect wrong including the "fit guy". I agree that people can have bias. We are all human just like the scientist conducting a study.
I enjoy reading about facts, data, science and theories that others are trying. I try many of them too! I learn from others and I learn from my mistakes. Learning isn't one dimensional.
However, my personal experience, my passion, my research and my personal real world results based on my personal actions do mean more to me than a study that tells me what "should happen" to me.
If I wanted to learn how to play in the NHL, personally, I would be way more interested in learning from Sidney Crosby and asking how he got there than I would be from a commentator who did not play in the NHL but does get paid full time to watch and study the game.
I would rather learn about SEO from someone who built up a site and is getting huge traffic from search than I would someone who studies SEO and offers a course on it.
Both approaches have flaws but I do trust my results over others theories and tests. If I had the chance to talk to someone who achieved what I wanted to achieve, I would be thrilled and I would place a huge amount of value on that. If I see something about a test finding I would be intrigued and likely want to learn more and verify its accuracy the best that I can.
And going back to the confusion piece. If I’m Googling away looking for how to get fit-and I haven’t exercised in 20 years and I’m sipping my 64 Oz big gulp and don’t know where to start or where I’m going, I’m going to be inundated with information.
I’m going to have 395959606 Fit Guys telling me to do xyz, abc, but only on the alternate 3rd Sunday of the Mars orbital schedule, just start light with 300 pounds on the bar and whatever you do-NEVER to cardio because gainz.
I’m going to have 928599505 brand new fitness bloggers telling me to do keto IF and if I really want to blast fat do HIIT. Whatever you do-don’t eat sugar. But honey is ok. But definitely no carbz ever because Satan created insulin.
Then you’ll have 2774959560 inspirational blog posts about morbidly obese people who now run marathons and ultras and how they still eat cookies and beer.
But wait? What about the carbz and the cardio? How come they aren’t dead?
But what do I even want? I just want to be healthy. I still don’t know what to do or where to go.
Except never cardio but definitely run, it’s ok to eat cookies but never eat a carb, and do HIIT? What is HIIT?
Note-I’m not looking for these answers. But for your average Joe - this is what they are confronted with. And they don’t know how to vet sources or what is nonsense and what isn’t. What is relevant and what isn’t.
18 -
I'm quoting this because I'm not sure who you're replying to? Mentioned me but quoted Duck_Puddle and nutmegoreo responded...so...nutmegoreo wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »Duck_Puddle wrote: »
This. IMHO it is only confusing because people don't know how to properly vet sources.
This is important from my perspective because, while I recognize really obvious snake oil pitches for what they are, some of what's out there uses language that a lay person like me has a difficult time understanding to begin with, much less knowing exactly where to go to vet the sources I'm using.
What's helping me (because my mind is to busy for my own good sometimes) is just asking questions here and trusting the "peer review" type answers each question gets, and also remembering 35 years ago I didn't want or need anything complex, whether routine or supplement, to stay in excellent shape.
It's easy to see why folks get confused imo.
This is very true. 50 years ago, if you wanted to publish drivel - you had to get a publisher or a magazine to agree to publish your drivel then you had to get someone to actually pick it up and read it. Now you just need a free Wordpress account, the right font choice, proper spelling and some good graphics and it looks like your drivel is coming from the WHO. But some info is good. So how is your average person going to know? What I’m reading makes sense. It might be entirely garbage, but it makes sense and this blog as 2 million followers so it must be right. Right?
And a lot of what’s out there is drivel. And also a lot of what’s out there is a “fit” person talking about what they did to achieve that. Nevermind that simply achieving results doesn’t mean that one has taken the most direct path. If I wake up and pray to the sun god every morning before I do my workout-are my results because I prayed to the sun god? That’s where studies are helpful. Just because someone has done something doesn’t mean it was necessary, helpful or that the same person couldn’t have achieved more by doing something different.
This makes sense Phirrgus.
Ideally the average person can use best judgement to decipher between relevant and irrelevant pointers from a fit person. Having someone explain how they achieved success in a way you want to achieve success is often considered invaluable. Nothing is perfect as a lot of studies have so many variables including short durations, small samples, bias, limited control over the accuracy of the data, the type of subjects used etc.
For Example:
A study about "exercise" and "metabolism" that studies a group of marathon runners likely doesn't provide much insight to a guy like me whose primary form of "exercise" is weights.
Or
Some people argue about tiny details in a study that may have a fraction of importance on the end goal and then that study really confuses people about what they should do.
Or
Sometimes studies rely on people self reporting what they did, ate or how much rest they had.
These kinds of thing seems very common and it is likely just as confusing, if not more confusing than the fit person explaining their process to get the way they are.
But even the "fit guy" has a lot of problems as drugs is often hidden. This seems more common than most people realize. Hopefully the "fit guy" can provide enough information to address the drugs concern (if it is a concern for that person). But then again, magazines constantly misrepresent results from a natural or drugs perspective.
Tough go. Keeping it simple has worked for me.
So, are you saying you think that individual anecdote is more valuable than scientific studies?
Just to address the turn the thread seems to have taken, I am not and will not advocate anecdote over scientific studies, although in the absence of scientific information anecdotes can at times be helpful.
My primary point had to do with simply not being able to distinguish between the validity of certain claims due to my lack of knowledge.
Which is where this little guy >?< comes into play.
I quoted who I was responding to, looking for clarification on his point.
As for the quoting of Duck_Puddle and then mentioning you, my interpretation was that he was saying her comment was good information for you. Although I've been getting more confused as the thread progresses, so I could be very wrong.4 -
nutmegoreo wrote: »
I'm quoting this because I'm not sure who you're replying to? Mentioned me but quoted Duck_Puddle and nutmegoreo responded...so...nutmegoreo wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »Duck_Puddle wrote: »
This. IMHO it is only confusing because people don't know how to properly vet sources.
This is important from my perspective because, while I recognize really obvious snake oil pitches for what they are, some of what's out there uses language that a lay person like me has a difficult time understanding to begin with, much less knowing exactly where to go to vet the sources I'm using.
What's helping me (because my mind is to busy for my own good sometimes) is just asking questions here and trusting the "peer review" type answers each question gets, and also remembering 35 years ago I didn't want or need anything complex, whether routine or supplement, to stay in excellent shape.
It's easy to see why folks get confused imo.
This is very true. 50 years ago, if you wanted to publish drivel - you had to get a publisher or a magazine to agree to publish your drivel then you had to get someone to actually pick it up and read it. Now you just need a free Wordpress account, the right font choice, proper spelling and some good graphics and it looks like your drivel is coming from the WHO. But some info is good. So how is your average person going to know? What I’m reading makes sense. It might be entirely garbage, but it makes sense and this blog as 2 million followers so it must be right. Right?
And a lot of what’s out there is drivel. And also a lot of what’s out there is a “fit” person talking about what they did to achieve that. Nevermind that simply achieving results doesn’t mean that one has taken the most direct path. If I wake up and pray to the sun god every morning before I do my workout-are my results because I prayed to the sun god? That’s where studies are helpful. Just because someone has done something doesn’t mean it was necessary, helpful or that the same person couldn’t have achieved more by doing something different.
This makes sense Phirrgus.
Ideally the average person can use best judgement to decipher between relevant and irrelevant pointers from a fit person. Having someone explain how they achieved success in a way you want to achieve success is often considered invaluable. Nothing is perfect as a lot of studies have so many variables including short durations, small samples, bias, limited control over the accuracy of the data, the type of subjects used etc.
For Example:
A study about "exercise" and "metabolism" that studies a group of marathon runners likely doesn't provide much insight to a guy like me whose primary form of "exercise" is weights.
Or
Some people argue about tiny details in a study that may have a fraction of importance on the end goal and then that study really confuses people about what they should do.
Or
Sometimes studies rely on people self reporting what they did, ate or how much rest they had.
These kinds of thing seems very common and it is likely just as confusing, if not more confusing than the fit person explaining their process to get the way they are.
But even the "fit guy" has a lot of problems as drugs is often hidden. This seems more common than most people realize. Hopefully the "fit guy" can provide enough information to address the drugs concern (if it is a concern for that person). But then again, magazines constantly misrepresent results from a natural or drugs perspective.
Tough go. Keeping it simple has worked for me.
So, are you saying you think that individual anecdote is more valuable than scientific studies?
Just to address the turn the thread seems to have taken, I am not and will not advocate anecdote over scientific studies, although in the absence of scientific information anecdotes can at times be helpful.
My primary point had to do with simply not being able to distinguish between the validity of certain claims due to my lack of knowledge.
Which is where this little guy >?< comes into play.
I quoted who I was responding to, looking for clarification on his point.
As for the quoting of Duck_Puddle and then mentioning you, my interpretation was that he was saying her comment was good information for you. Although I've been getting more confused as the thread progresses, so I could be very wrong.
I’m equally confused. But this is mfp and I don’t let that kind of thing hold me back.11 -
Duck_Puddle wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »
I'm quoting this because I'm not sure who you're replying to? Mentioned me but quoted Duck_Puddle and nutmegoreo responded...so...nutmegoreo wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »Duck_Puddle wrote: »
This. IMHO it is only confusing because people don't know how to properly vet sources.
This is important from my perspective because, while I recognize really obvious snake oil pitches for what they are, some of what's out there uses language that a lay person like me has a difficult time understanding to begin with, much less knowing exactly where to go to vet the sources I'm using.
What's helping me (because my mind is to busy for my own good sometimes) is just asking questions here and trusting the "peer review" type answers each question gets, and also remembering 35 years ago I didn't want or need anything complex, whether routine or supplement, to stay in excellent shape.
It's easy to see why folks get confused imo.
This is very true. 50 years ago, if you wanted to publish drivel - you had to get a publisher or a magazine to agree to publish your drivel then you had to get someone to actually pick it up and read it. Now you just need a free Wordpress account, the right font choice, proper spelling and some good graphics and it looks like your drivel is coming from the WHO. But some info is good. So how is your average person going to know? What I’m reading makes sense. It might be entirely garbage, but it makes sense and this blog as 2 million followers so it must be right. Right?
And a lot of what’s out there is drivel. And also a lot of what’s out there is a “fit” person talking about what they did to achieve that. Nevermind that simply achieving results doesn’t mean that one has taken the most direct path. If I wake up and pray to the sun god every morning before I do my workout-are my results because I prayed to the sun god? That’s where studies are helpful. Just because someone has done something doesn’t mean it was necessary, helpful or that the same person couldn’t have achieved more by doing something different.
This makes sense Phirrgus.
Ideally the average person can use best judgement to decipher between relevant and irrelevant pointers from a fit person. Having someone explain how they achieved success in a way you want to achieve success is often considered invaluable. Nothing is perfect as a lot of studies have so many variables including short durations, small samples, bias, limited control over the accuracy of the data, the type of subjects used etc.
For Example:
A study about "exercise" and "metabolism" that studies a group of marathon runners likely doesn't provide much insight to a guy like me whose primary form of "exercise" is weights.
Or
Some people argue about tiny details in a study that may have a fraction of importance on the end goal and then that study really confuses people about what they should do.
Or
Sometimes studies rely on people self reporting what they did, ate or how much rest they had.
These kinds of thing seems very common and it is likely just as confusing, if not more confusing than the fit person explaining their process to get the way they are.
But even the "fit guy" has a lot of problems as drugs is often hidden. This seems more common than most people realize. Hopefully the "fit guy" can provide enough information to address the drugs concern (if it is a concern for that person). But then again, magazines constantly misrepresent results from a natural or drugs perspective.
Tough go. Keeping it simple has worked for me.
So, are you saying you think that individual anecdote is more valuable than scientific studies?
Just to address the turn the thread seems to have taken, I am not and will not advocate anecdote over scientific studies, although in the absence of scientific information anecdotes can at times be helpful.
My primary point had to do with simply not being able to distinguish between the validity of certain claims due to my lack of knowledge.
Which is where this little guy >?< comes into play.
I quoted who I was responding to, looking for clarification on his point.
As for the quoting of Duck_Puddle and then mentioning you, my interpretation was that he was saying her comment was good information for you. Although I've been getting more confused as the thread progresses, so I could be very wrong.
I’m equally confused. But this is mfp and I don’t let that kind of thing hold me back.
:laugh:4 -
Duck_Puddle wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »Duck_Puddle wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »Duck_Puddle wrote: »
This. IMHO it is only confusing because people don't know how to properly vet sources.
This is important from my perspective because, while I recognize really obvious snake oil pitches for what they are, some of what's out there uses language that a lay person like me has a difficult time understanding to begin with, much less knowing exactly where to go to vet the sources I'm using.
What's helping me (because my mind is to busy for my own good sometimes) is just asking questions here and trusting the "peer review" type answers each question gets, and also remembering 35 years ago I didn't want or need anything complex, whether routine or supplement, to stay in excellent shape.
It's easy to see why folks get confused imo.
This is very true. 50 years ago, if you wanted to publish drivel - you had to get a publisher or a magazine to agree to publish your drivel then you had to get someone to actually pick it up and read it. Now you just need a free Wordpress account, the right font choice, proper spelling and some good graphics and it looks like your drivel is coming from the WHO. But some info is good. So how is your average person going to know? What I’m reading makes sense. It might be entirely garbage, but it makes sense and this blog as 2 million followers so it must be right. Right?
And a lot of what’s out there is drivel. And also a lot of what’s out there is a “fit” person talking about what they did to achieve that. Nevermind that simply achieving results doesn’t mean that one has taken the most direct path. If I wake up and pray to the sun god every morning before I do my workout-are my results because I prayed to the sun god? That’s where studies are helpful. Just because someone has done something doesn’t mean it was necessary, helpful or that the same person couldn’t have achieved more by doing something different.
This makes sense Phirrgus.
Ideally the average person can use best judgement to decipher between relevant and irrelevant pointers from a fit person. Having someone explain how they achieved success in a way you want to achieve success is often considered invaluable. Nothing is perfect as a lot of studies have so many variables including short durations, small samples, bias, limited control over the accuracy of the data, the type of subjects used etc.
For Example:
A study about "exercise" and "metabolism" that studies a group of marathon runners likely doesn't provide much insight to a guy like me whose primary form of "exercise" is weights.
Or
Some people argue about tiny details in a study that may have a fraction of importance on the end goal and then that study really confuses people about what they should do.
Or
Sometimes studies rely on people self reporting what they did, ate or how much rest they had.
These kinds of thing seems very common and it is likely just as confusing, if not more confusing than the fit person explaining their process to get the way they are.
But even the "fit guy" has a lot of problems as drugs is often hidden. This seems more common than most people realize. Hopefully the "fit guy" can provide enough information to address the drugs concern (if it is a concern for that person). But then again, magazines constantly misrepresent results from a natural or drugs perspective.
Tough go. Keeping it simple has worked for me.
Actually- the mere fact that “fit guy” appears fit doesn’t mean he has anything valuable to say.
He achieved results perhaps because of, but equally likely in spite of, his methods.
99% of what is out there is irrelevant nonsense to begin with.
99% of actual studies minimize the noise because no, “fit guy” didn’t get fit because he does IF Keto vegan gluten free whey protein bomb shakes within a 27 minute window after only working legs on the 7th Tuesday of each full blood moon.
Also-“fit guy”s results are irrelevant to me if my goals are about race times and idgaf what my BF% is or how “lean” I look. So even within the context of lifting, my goals are for race performance.
Fit guy’s anecdotal info is nearly useless. He achieved results in spite of what he was doing. He also achieved results that aren’t aligned to my goals. But the internet is full of fit guys sharing their “knowledge” and “expertise”
Years ago, we went out to dinner with my son to celebrate his getting his driver’s license. He insisted on driving himself. We all left at the same time. He got to the restaurant an hour after we did. It was a 7 minute drive (for us). He also needed to borrow money to get some gas because he used all of his on the drive there. Did he get there? Yep. Did he take the best route? I suppose that depends on your definition of best. The internet is FULL of my son giving directions to the restauarant.
Studies are the GPS. Maybe they don’t have every address on planet earth-but I’ll take my chances with that over my kid any day.
Interesting Duck_Puddle. You should stick with that approach, especially if it is working for you!
If you want to learn how to improve your race time, I'd ask the fastest racer you can find. I wouldn't be asking "fit guy" about how to improve my racing times.
In case you missed it, I addressed this in my last post:No I am not.
I agree that people can get cause and effect wrong including the "fit guy". I agree that people can have bias. We are all human just like the scientist conducting a study.
I enjoy reading about facts, data, science and theories that others are trying. I try many of them too! I learn from others and I learn from my mistakes. Learning isn't one dimensional.
However, my personal experience, my passion, my research and my personal real world results based on my personal actions do mean more to me than a study that tells me what "should happen" to me.
If I wanted to learn how to play in the NHL, personally, I would be way more interested in learning from Sidney Crosby and asking how he got there than I would be from a commentator who did not play in the NHL but does get paid full time to watch and study the game.
I would rather learn about SEO from someone who built up a site and is getting huge traffic from search than I would someone who studies SEO and offers a course on it.
Both approaches have flaws but I do trust my results over others theories and tests. If I had the chance to talk to someone who achieved what I wanted to achieve, I would be thrilled and I would place a huge amount of value on that. If I see something about a test finding I would be intrigued and likely want to learn more and verify its accuracy the best that I can.
And going back to the confusion piece. If I’m Googling away looking for how to get fit-and I haven’t exercised in 20 years and I’m sipping my 64 Oz big gulp and don’t know where to start or where I’m going, I’m going to be inundated with information.
I’m going to have 395959606 Fit Guys telling me to do xyz, abc, but only on the alternate 3rd Sunday of the Mars orbital schedule, just start light with 300 pounds on the bar and whatever you do-NEVER to cardio because gainz.
I’m going to have 928599505 brand new fitness bloggers telling me to do keto IF and if I really want to blast fat do HIIT. Whatever you do-don’t eat sugar. But honey is ok. But definitely no carbz ever because Satan created insulin.
Then you’ll have 2774959560 inspirational blog posts about morbidly obese people who now run marathons and ultras and how they still eat cookies and beer.
But wait? What about the carbz and the cardio? How come they aren’t dead?
But what do I even want? I just want to be healthy. I still don’t know what to do or where to go.
Except never cardio but definitely run, it’s ok to eat cookies but never eat a carb, and do HIIT? What is HIIT?
Note-I’m not looking for these answers. But for your average Joe - this is what they are confronted with. And they don’t know how to vet sources or what is nonsense and what isn’t. What is relevant and what isn’t.
Oh I love you Duck Puddle! This was the best answer because sooooooooooooooooo true!
Also, people believe. they want to believe. Even intelligent smart people will believe what a person who is "in the industry" tells them.
for example, i have a very good friend - very intelligent, lawyer and has worked in research institutions so knows all about research, who the other day presented me with a "healthy banana bread" that her nutritionist gave her the recipe for so that she'd eat that instead of cookies in the afternoon.
I calculated the macros based on the recipe and the thing was so laden with fat (because healthy coconut oil is good for you and bad flour is bad for you so gluten free) that she would have been better off eating cookies than this thing. My version of banana bread was 100 calories LESS than hers for same size serving.
I did not tell her this though, because she wants to lose weight EASILY - without counting calories or points or having any apps or anything.
So go ahead and eat half a loaf of banana bread at 244 calories per tiny slice of 1cm x 3cm x 2cm... because the nutritionist said that it was "healthy" and therefore must be better than cookies.4 -
nutmegoreo and Duck_Puddle LOL!
That was a perfect description of me (except the 64oz lol) and I keep in mind that I may represent the majority of people looking for information. As in not highly educated in the medical/physiological disciplines. I don't think I'm stupid..but I am ignorant of information in that area that would probably trigger woo alarms in someone with the proper (or related) education.2 -
If I wanted to get off the couch and learn how to sprint, the last place I should look for help is what Usain Bolt does. He is a freak of nature, with incredible genetics and habits and techniques personalized to his awesomeness.
Tom Brady thinks people should not eat tomatoes. He might be a future HOFer, but that doesn't mean he knows *kitten* about what parts of his ridiculous lifestyle are truly helping and which are superfluous first world entitled bs.
The biggest superstars rarely make great coaches or managers, getting to the top doesn't mean you understand what really got you there.
I think the average persons goal is to live a long healthy life, avoiding disease and staying active and vibrant. So the "best" of that class would be healthy elderly folks. Most very old folks asked for their secret usually mention alcohol and cigars lol. I've never heard a 95 yr old mention sprint intervals, fat bombs, or not eating after 7pm. I look to the Blue Zones as a general guide. Simple stuff <shrug>17 -
nutmegoreo and Duck_Puddle LOL!
That was a perfect description of me (except the 64oz lol) and I keep in mind that I may represent the majority of people looking for information. As in not highly educated in the medical/physiological disciplines. I don't think I'm stupid..but I am ignorant of information in that area that would probably trigger woo alarms in someone with the proper (or related) education.
FWIW, the first time I tried reading a legit scientific study paper it was like reading greek. It really is a case of practice makes perfect, plus the comments more knowledgeable peeps here make about what to watch out for, like sample size, how the data.is accumulated (like self-reported diet info), and the frequent use of words in the conclusion like may, might, seems to, etc.4 -
In reality, it's pretty simple. Understand your calories in vs. calories out, set a target calorie goal based on your personal goals (lose, gain, maintain, etc). Build an exercise routine that focuses on strength training and cardio. There really is no need for most people to overcomplicate it.
BUT, there is A LOT of MONEY to be made from overcomplicating things for people. That's why you see so much of it. "My product/diet/lifestyle blog/app/whatever is the only thing that will work for you" is a pretty effective way to market, and it takes advantage of a lot of people who are looking for a quick fix to their struggles.
Yeah free advice of eat less and move more for weight loss isn't near as sexier or profitable as the newest cleanse, supplement or 5 minute exercise miracle.2 -
We know what gets you from point A to point B and that's a road called CI < CO. However, there are different lanes in the road and not all of the lanes are nice and smooth. One of the lanes may be called Keto, another Clean Eating, etc. Depending on the lane you choose, you're gonna have a smooth or a bumpy ride, but as long as you stay on the road and don't exit, you'll get from point A to point B and that's what matters.
When you think of it that way, who really cares what lane somebody else chooses for themselves? All you can do is point out the smooth lanes and advise against the bumpy lanes.
[/quote]
Except people mistakenly think there's something "magical" about certain lanes when the fact is they've simply found a way to create a calorie deficit that they find tolerable/sustainable. Keto isn't magical, but eating lots of fat and protein may be filling and thus allow one to eat less overall. I agree people should choose the "lane" that suits them, but they need to recognize that any way of eating resulting in weight loss is nothing more than CI<CO.2 -
nutmegoreo and Duck_Puddle LOL!
That was a perfect description of me (except the 64oz lol) and I keep in mind that I may represent the majority of people looking for information. As in not highly educated in the medical/physiological disciplines. I don't think I'm stupid..but I am ignorant of information in that area that would probably trigger woo alarms in someone with the proper (or related) education.
But you are open to learning, you are aware that you don't have all of the answers, and you are questioning what you read. These are all really important.
One of the hardest lessons I had to learn in weight loss was that I needed to forget everything I thought I knew. There were so many amazing posters who had been around for a while when I first started and they were instrumental for me to learn to let go of some of the insane concepts that I had long held on to. Letting these things go helped me break the spiral of restrict (either calories or foods), get overwhelmed, eat all the foods I had been restricting, feel like a failure, enter guilt/shame spiral, try again in a month or two. It was a horrible way to be trying to lose weight. Thanks to the amazing long-timers here, I was able to break away from that.7 -
nutmegoreo wrote: »nutmegoreo and Duck_Puddle LOL!
That was a perfect description of me (except the 64oz lol) and I keep in mind that I may represent the majority of people looking for information. As in not highly educated in the medical/physiological disciplines. I don't think I'm stupid..but I am ignorant of information in that area that would probably trigger woo alarms in someone with the proper (or related) education.
But you are open to learning, you are aware that you don't have all of the answers, and you are questioning what you read. These are all really important.
One of the hardest lessons I had to learn in weight loss was that I needed to forget everything I thought I knew. There were so many amazing posters who had been around for a while when I first started and they were instrumental for me to learn to let go of some of the insane concepts that I had long held on to. Letting these things go helped me break the spiral of restrict (either calories or foods), get overwhelmed, eat all the foods I had been restricting, feel like a failure, enter guilt/shame spiral, try again in a month or two. It was a horrible way to be trying to lose weight. Thanks to the amazing long-timers here, I was able to break away from that.
This is quite literally how I feel these days. I don't believe I ever went all that far towards 'the dark side' lol, but I did enough that I wasn't doing myself any favors at all. And yes, the community here is pretty incredible. You have to go a long way on the web to find a forum that's over flowing with patience from the long timers like this one is. I've gotten extremely fond of it over a very short period of time.
7 -
nutmegoreo and Duck_Puddle LOL!
That was a perfect description of me (except the 64oz lol) and I keep in mind that I may represent the majority of people looking for information. As in not highly educated in the medical/physiological disciplines. I don't think I'm stupid..but I am ignorant of information in that area that would probably trigger woo alarms in someone with the proper (or related) education.
FWIW, the first time I tried reading a legit scientific study paper it was like reading greek. It really is a case of practice makes perfect, plus the comments more knowledgeable peeps here make about what to watch out for, like sample size, how the data.is accumulated (like self-reported diet info), and the frequent use of words in the conclusion like may, might, seems to, etc.
I've had those watch words pointed out to me a couple of times, and it really does make a difference. This is a great topic for me, for reinforcing good reading habits as well as getting good tips on how to think a bit more critically about what I'm reading.3 -
Not everyone is the same! So a exercise may work for someone or it might not?14
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jasonpoihegatama wrote: »Not everyone is the same! So a exercise may work for someone or it might not?
Not sure what you mean by 'work.' Exercise will work pretty much the same way for everyone, provided they are physically capable of doing it. Where they may individually differ is in the amount of calories expended.
For a simple example, take walking. Walking is cardio and burns calories.
Where it differs from person-to-person is in how many calories it burns in an hour, dependent on how fast they're walking, terrain, and how much extra weight they're carrying on their body to begin with. An obese person, walking at the same pace as as someone who isn't, will burn more calories in that time frame, simply because of the extra physical effort required to do so, as they are also having to propel their excess weight along with them.
But the exercise of walking is definitely 'working' for them both.7 -
snickerscharlie wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »Not everyone is the same! So a exercise may work for someone or it might not?
Not sure what you mean by 'work.' Exercise will work pretty much the same way for everyone, provided they are physically capable of doing it. Where they may individually differ is in the amount of calories expended.
For a simple example, take walking. Walking is cardio and burns calories.
Where it differs from person-to-person is in how many calories it burns in an hour, dependent on how fast they're walking, terrain, and how much extra weight they're carrying on their body to begin with. An obese person, walking at the same pace as as someone who isn't, will burn more calories in that time frame, simply because of the extra physical effort required to do so, as they are also having to propel their excess weight along with them.
But the exercise of walking is definitely 'working' for them both.
So you will give someone who is 100 kg overweight the same exercise and eating plan as someone who's super fit or someone who needs to put on weight.. Then that's you that's what you will do!!!!14 -
jasonpoihegatama wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »Not everyone is the same! So a exercise may work for someone or it might not?
Not sure what you mean by 'work.' Exercise will work pretty much the same way for everyone, provided they are physically capable of doing it. Where they may individually differ is in the amount of calories expended.
For a simple example, take walking. Walking is cardio and burns calories.
Where it differs from person-to-person is in how many calories it burns in an hour, dependent on how fast they're walking, terrain, and how much extra weight they're carrying on their body to begin with. An obese person, walking at the same pace as as someone who isn't, will burn more calories in that time frame, simply because of the extra physical effort required to do so, as they are also having to propel their excess weight along with them.
But the exercise of walking is definitely 'working' for them both.
So you will give someone who is 100 kg overweight the same exercise and eating plan as someone who's super fit or someone who needs to put on weight.. Then that's you that's what you will do!!!!
I'm not sure choosing what's right for a person based on their metrics is the same thing as being confused by the over abundance of misleading material that's available to choose from, some of which may actually be dangerous.
6 -
jasonpoihegatama wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »jasonpoihegatama wrote: »Not everyone is the same! So a exercise may work for someone or it might not?
Not sure what you mean by 'work.' Exercise will work pretty much the same way for everyone, provided they are physically capable of doing it. Where they may individually differ is in the amount of calories expended.
For a simple example, take walking. Walking is cardio and burns calories.
Where it differs from person-to-person is in how many calories it burns in an hour, dependent on how fast they're walking, terrain, and how much extra weight they're carrying on their body to begin with. An obese person, walking at the same pace as as someone who isn't, will burn more calories in that time frame, simply because of the extra physical effort required to do so, as they are also having to propel their excess weight along with them.
But the exercise of walking is definitely 'working' for them both.
So you will give someone who is 100 kg overweight the same exercise and eating plan as someone who's super fit or someone who needs to put on weight.. Then that's you that's what you will do!!!!
I'm not sure choosing what's right for a person based on their metrics is the same thing as being confused by the over abundance of misleading material that's available to choose from, some of which may actually be dangerous.
If you choose to use misleading material then that's up to you! Why use material at all if you are not sure?10
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