Keto diet = good or bad

fatblatta wrote: »

psuLemon wrote: »

fatblatta wrote: »

Well, no I didn't read all of this. I tried to answer the original question is keto good or bad. I think I have more evidence that it's good than you folks do saying it's bad. There are plenty of methods to lose weight.

Constant hunger, dizziness, and fatigue. And before you promote electrolyte imbalance, I was consuming over 6000mg and concentrating on potassium-rich foods.

You were low on salt. I have no idea how you ate 6000 mg of potassium. That would kill me. Do you know too much potassium will kill you? My body cannot regulate potassium so I know about this. I was in the heart attack zone and in less than two months my potassium was normal. LCHF is a low potassium diet.

I had over 6000mg of sodium and a potassium rich diet. I am extremely well versed in dieting.

So you say. We'll never agree, unfortunately. It's a simple question is keto bad or good. It's great! That's it from me!

So your n=1 experience combined with your reading of a single biased source negates the experience of someone who has years of professional experience helping people achieve health and fitness goals and has done extensive research across myriad sources to make sure that they Are up to date on the latest science?

Got it.

Again no one is saying that it isn’t Great for some individuals. Just that there is no magic. You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts.

fatblatta wrote: »

No, I am not. I think keto is far superior and every way. This is from experience eating both ways to lose weight.

You cannot generalize from your experience to the world as a whole. That's especially so when you have acknowledged a health condition that would affect it, and when you were starting from a BMI of 44, which is morbidly obese.

You also have not shown that you varied only carbs. Quite often when people reduce carbs they change their diet in other ways.

Personally I like experimenting with different diets and have tried both moderately low carb (which I like pretty well, but don't find leads to different weight loss results than other ways of eating) and keto, which for me was stressful as I found it difficult to eat in the way I prefer and consider most healthful (which does include a whole lot of non starchy veg, some nuts, and ideally some fruit and beans and yogurt -- just the non starchy veg and nuts would often push me over). I also found it was difficult to do without eating more meat than I am comfortable with.

This is not what I eat. I eat no nuts and very little cheese. I eat some meat on most days, but this is not the bulk of my diet. I try to eat less than 20 % of my calories from protein.

I try to eat about .8 g of protein per lb (I am a healthy weight). If it is between .6 and .8 g/lb I'm okay, though. I don't want it to go under .6.

Without meat, eggs, dairy (yogurt and cottage cheese) -- all of which I'd prefer to limit -- I find it hard to imagine how I'd get my protein on keto. I think nuts are healthy and eat them, and eat a lot of non starchy veg (and often half an avocado per day). Beyond those foods, the only keto-friendly foods seem to be oils and sauces and so on, and to me those aren't filling. On keto I had to eliminate foods I think are extremely healthful, like fruit, beans and lentils, potatoes and sweet potatoes, pulses, some whole grains (I don't eat a lot of grains, but find including some whole grains to allow for more dietary variety).

You are going to have to face it. Low Carb is very beneficial!

Not inherently more so than other ways of eating. Diets can be healthful or not regardless of how many carbs are consumed.

To be clear, however, since you seem to be misinterpreting what people say, I don't think keto is bad. I think it's the wrong choice for me, and neither inherently good nor bad. I think it's a good tool for some people, although probably only a small minority (along the lines of what lemon is saying).

fatblatta wrote: »

So one link from examine.com? How much are we betting? I really don't agree with several things you've said here. Insulin absolutely plays a part in really fat people with diabetes metabolic syndrome and several other diseases. For me, it's way superior. There is a huge difference in low carb vs low calorie in basically every aspect. Weight loss, health gains, saity and happiness being the most important. There are lots of sucessful low carb athletes too.

I think you have confused the medium for the message. Insulin is relevant to diabetes and obesity akin to how fiber optic cables are relevant to your posting on an internet site: they transmit a message but they are not the message or the explanation of the message.
That's why Type I diabetes is also a disease.

And one final, final thing. All you people who believe there is no difference in keto and low calorie you need to up your research game. Just because you have one old article that you rely on doesn't make it so. Enjoy and enlighten yourself with these.

https://www.ketovale.com/low-carb-keto-diet-studies-list/

No, but the links are independent. Look at them. If you say all those are biased then we live on different planets. They were not conducted by the website. Some are very old.

fatblatta wrote: »

And one final, final thing. All you people who believe there is no difference in keto and low calorie you need to up your research game. Just because you have one old article that you rely on doesn't make it so. Enjoy and enlighten yourself with these.

https://www.ketovale.com/low-carb-keto-diet-studies-list/

There is no distinction between keto and low calorie. For weight loss, keto and higher carb are identical wrt calories.

psuLemon wrote: »

fatblatta wrote: »

No, but the links are independent. Look at them. If you say all those are biased then we live on different planets. They were not conducted by the website. Some are very old.

I am not suggesting that keto doesn't have benefits but it doesn't show large improvements over other diets.

I can tell you are a nice person. Nutrition people have to say that though. If people can lose weight and keep it off with low carb and fasting you are out of business. If you read some of the reports on that link you'll find the science doesn't really support your position anymore.

@fatblatta you may be onto something about keto being harmful to big pocketbooks.

https://cnn.com/2019/02/27/investing/weight-watchers-earnings-stock-ww-oprah-winfrey-keto/index.html

If I were to base everything on my own personal experience, I could make a lot of hard and fast statements about a lot of things, but my personal experience doesn't apply to everyone.

The only thing from my personal experience that I think is worth sharing as a cautionary tale goes towards the idea of the sustainability of any sort of restrictive plan over a very long haul unless there's some overriding medical reason to adhere to it.

I have celiac disease. I have to avoid gluten for the rest of my life. I have no problem doing that.

I low carbed, doing the Atkins plan (without counting calories), for ten years. I both lost and gained weight eating that way. If you had asked me at any point in time during those ten years (during which I never "cheated" by eating anything carby) if I was going to eat that way forever and if I was satisfied eating that way, I'd have said yes.

Then a food that I thought lost to me forever due to gluten cross-contamination came onto the market, and all bets were off. Gluten free oats came out, and the idea of being able to eat oatmeal again had me saying goodbye to low carbing.

In the time that I have been tracking my food intake and counting calories as a means of losing weight, I've had varying nutritional needs due to differences in activity levels and changing body composition. The macro mix that kept me full and happy when I first started losing weight stopped working at one point and I had to shift gears and change my macro ratios in order to feel satiated. This has happened a few times over the four years I've been at this. The one constant that's kept me in a normal healthy BMI range since dropping my initial weight has been keeping to a calorie goal.

Keto can be fine for some people because it's satiating for them and makes it easy for them to stick to deficit eating. Whether it's sustainable for them over a really long haul? Time will only tell. Get back to us all in ten or so years

magnusthenerd wrote: »

fatblatta wrote: »

Type 1 is different. https://www.diffen.com/difference/Type_1_Diabetes_vs_Type_2_Diabetes

Don't even go there

Here's a simple idea: don't assume you know more than me, that you'll be lecturing me, and suddenly my posts might make more sense. I didn't use T1 out of ignorance
T1 is the absolute lack of insulin, that's my point. It isn't healthy either so insulin simpliciter can't be a pure cause of health issues, or people completely lacking it would be healthier.

I could also ask if you know why massive, hulking, muscle slabs in the unregulated pro Bodybuilding circuit inject insulin... while becoming some of the leanest humans on the planet. Surely that makes no sense in a view where insulin itself is causing obesity, right?

Excellent points. Insulin is critical for nutrients to reach cells. Lack of insulin will kill you. Those who are insulin resistant produce insulin but it doesn't do its job o getting enough nutrients to the cells. The key is not to avoid foods that produce insulin but to increase insulin sensitivity. Yes, low carb is one tool to do that. So is weight loss and vigorous exercise.

Based on the what has been said, someone that had a BMI in the 40s and lowered to the 30s is likely insulin resistant, even still in the 30s. So, for them, a low carb or keto diet makes sense. For the rest of us? Not so much unless it is your preference and you will adhere to it.

Many here, including me, have lost weight and improved bio-marker just fine without keto and the suggestions that we need to "up out game" on research is delusional. There is plenty of objective, non cherry picked research that demonstrates no metabolic advantage to keto for long term weight loss. One can deny, jump up and down, shout and insult others to deny that but it doesn't change the facts.

Narrator voice: that 95% number is wrong. The actual success for weight maintenance is somewhere around 80%. Still somewhat dismal, but better than 95%.

https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/82/1/222S/4863393

FTR, this is a better success rate than quitting smoking, per attempt:

https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2376894/

fatblatta wrote: »

psuLemon wrote: »

GaleHawkins wrote: »

@PalDali that is an awesome Keto success story. Best of continued success for both of you.

It is true about 30% of the population has trouble doing Keto for one reason or another but after 4.5 years of keto it has helped resolved so many of my health issues plus I did lose 50 pounds and maintained that loss for over 3 years now. Nearly every week I learn more about keto still today at the age of 68.

Try 90%. There is only about a 10% success rate with Keto.

And one final thought. I think you inadvertently admitted that Keto is 5% better than all combined diets.

95% of diets fail and most will regain their lost weight in 1-5 years
Source: Statistics on Weight Discrimination: A Waste of Talent, The Council on Size and Weight Discrimination,
Retrieved July 18, 2011, from (http://www.cswd.org/index.html)
http://www.montenido.com/pdf/montenido_statistics.pdf

I think this article was written before keto was a big thing so the stats probably do not include keto.

Peace and love to all you grain eaters

So you have a 95% chance of failure, just like the rest of us.

I'm now about 6 years into maintenance at this point and statistically speaking I've gotten past the 5 years 'failure' period. So, I could come here and tell everyone what I'm doing is 'THE WAY', and is better than all the other plans out there (which would be a higher carb, mostly plant based woe- I average 200+ grams of carbs a day). But, one thing I've learned throughout this process is that when it comes to weight management it's highly individualized and what works for me or what works for you, won't work for someone else.

There's nothing wrong with you/me/everyone here sharing their own personal experiences. But, when someone takes it beyond that and starts claiming that whatever they're doing is somehow superior to what others are doing it shows a lack of understanding and frankly, is pretty naive.

It also tells me that the person isn't very far into the process and is still most likely in the honeymoon phase of weight loss. It also indicates that they probably have no clue what the 20, 30, 40+ years of maintenance is going to be like. And as you pointed out yourself-is 95% likely to fail at this whole thing.

eta: spend some time on the forums and you'll see all the posts from people who've tried keto and are abandoning it after a few weeks/few months. Some of them who've actually gained weight with the plan.

At the end of the day weight loss/weight gain/weight maintenance comes down to CICO.

GaleHawkins wrote: »

zeejane03 wrote: »

Silkysausage wrote: »

With the recent discovery of 'keto crotch' it's a no from me.

Ha, was coming here to see if anyone dared to post about this lol.

https://reddit.com/r/xxketo/comments/7pk8tx/help_ladies_why_do_i_smell_down_there_pcosketo/

This was being discussed at foxnews and they offered this link. Two weeks into keto makes is sounds like the kill off of overgrowths that can happen in any part of the body after moving from burning sugar to burning fat. One doctor mentioned it was a temporary thing.

https://foxnews.com/food-drink/keto-crotch-called-out-as-stinky-side-effect-of-popular-diet

My first few weeks into Keto I thought I was going to die and even googled 'Dying from coconut oil usage'. That was when I learned about the die off reaction that Keto was causing in my gut. Antibiotics and other drugs can cause the Herxheimer effect as well. It was very bad in my case but once I knew what was going on my panic attack ceased.

https://jillcarnahan.com/2012/11/17/tips-for-dealing-with-herxheimer-or-die-off-reactions/

I would expect a change based on microbe balance changing to be sustained for as long as the diet is maintained. Antibiotic die off rebalances because a person stops taking antibiotics.

It should also be noted the gut microbe changes can be good, bad or agnostic. And anytime you change diet, you change your gut microbes.