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Keto diet = good or bad
Replies
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It should also be noted the gut microbe changes can be good, bad or agnostic. And anytime you change diet, you change your gut microbes.9
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Generally it seems that healthier microbiomes tend to result from diets heavily based on plants. That's actually one of my personal concerns about something like keto longer term, although I did not have any negative symptoms when I did it for a while -- definitely not everyone feels bad at all. I also did not feel bad at all when I previously experimented with cutting out added sugar.
Of course, I didn't start eating huge amounts of plain oil either time, and I expect that would turn my stomach.
But have you ever smelled the inside of a vegan health food store versus a deli? Which microbiome smells the best?
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Is Keto good or bad? The answer is, as with most things is, it depends...4
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GaleHawkins wrote: »@fatblatta you may be onto something about keto being harmful to big pocketbooks.
https://cnn.com/2019/02/27/investing/weight-watchers-earnings-stock-ww-oprah-winfrey-keto/index.html
Sure, sure, and nobody has ever tried to monetize the ketogenic diet.12 -
janejellyroll wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »@fatblatta you may be onto something about keto being harmful to big pocketbooks.
https://cnn.com/2019/02/27/investing/weight-watchers-earnings-stock-ww-oprah-winfrey-keto/index.html
Sure, sure, and nobody has ever tried to monetize the ketogenic diet.
It is fallacious reasoning on both sides. Pay somebody as much money as you want to say the Earth is an oblate spheroid and they're still correct. Pay them nothing to say the Earth is flat, and they're still wrong.
As a heuristic though, I don't find it worth my time to take something presented by Dr. Fung as anything but questionable. I'd rather anyone using him as a source pull the actual study Fung cites and if they can do that, I'll look at that - probably finding it misrepresented or an oddity in terms of the literature.11 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »@fatblatta you may be onto something about keto being harmful to big pocketbooks.
https://cnn.com/2019/02/27/investing/weight-watchers-earnings-stock-ww-oprah-winfrey-keto/index.html
Sure, sure, and nobody has ever tried to monetize the ketogenic diet.
It is fallacious reasoning on both sides. Pay somebody as much money as you want to say the Earth is an oblate spheroid and they're still correct. Pay them nothing to say the Earth is flat, and they're still wrong.
As a heuristic though, I don't find it worth my time to take something presented by Dr. Fung as anything but questionable. I'd rather anyone using him as a source pull the actual study Fung cites and if they can do that, I'll look at that - probably finding it misrepresented or an oddity in terms of the literature.
To clarify, I wouldn't doubt what someone was saying simply because they manage to make a living saying it. I'm just saying it's ridiculous to attribute bad motives to WW simply because people are attempting to make money from it while ignoring that half the pre-made coffee drinks in the US seem to be full of butter and MCT oil. WW is a big business, keto is also making a lot of money for a lot of people.
Fung would be a great example of someone who seemingly perfected the art of monetizing his BS.7 -
janejellyroll wrote: »magnusthenerd wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »@fatblatta you may be onto something about keto being harmful to big pocketbooks.
https://cnn.com/2019/02/27/investing/weight-watchers-earnings-stock-ww-oprah-winfrey-keto/index.html
Sure, sure, and nobody has ever tried to monetize the ketogenic diet.
It is fallacious reasoning on both sides. Pay somebody as much money as you want to say the Earth is an oblate spheroid and they're still correct. Pay them nothing to say the Earth is flat, and they're still wrong.
As a heuristic though, I don't find it worth my time to take something presented by Dr. Fung as anything but questionable. I'd rather anyone using him as a source pull the actual study Fung cites and if they can do that, I'll look at that - probably finding it misrepresented or an oddity in terms of the literature.
To clarify, I wouldn't doubt what someone was saying simply because they manage to make a living saying it. I'm just saying it's ridiculous to attribute bad motives to WW simply because people are attempting to make money from it while ignoring that half the pre-made coffee drinks in the US seem to be full of butter and MCT oil. WW is a big business, keto is also making a lot of money for a lot of people.
Fung would be a great example of someone who seemingly perfected the art of monetizing his BS.
I'd agree it is certainly is inconsistent inference.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »@fatblatta you may be onto something about keto being harmful to big pocketbooks.
https://cnn.com/2019/02/27/investing/weight-watchers-earnings-stock-ww-oprah-winfrey-keto/index.html
Sure, sure, and nobody has ever tried to monetize the ketogenic diet.
https://weightwatchers.com/ca/en/article/benefits-coconut-oil
True. It seems WW has taken the position if you can not beat them then join the keto crowd and perhaps they will not be the last big company to start promoting into the Keto world wide revival since 100 years later Keto is stronger than ever in the minds of the masses.15 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »@fatblatta you may be onto something about keto being harmful to big pocketbooks.
https://cnn.com/2019/02/27/investing/weight-watchers-earnings-stock-ww-oprah-winfrey-keto/index.html
Sure, sure, and nobody has ever tried to monetize the ketogenic diet.
https://weightwatchers.com/ca/en/article/benefits-coconut-oil
True. It seems WW has taken the position if you can not beat them then join the keto crowd and perhaps they will not be the last big company to start promoting into the Keto world wide revival since 100 years later Keto is stronger than ever in the minds of the masses.
You obviously have no clue about WW. Almost all high fat foods, red meats and things like butter and oils are extremely high in points. The exception is fatty fish. Doing keto on WW would be very difficult.17 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »@fatblatta you may be onto something about keto being harmful to big pocketbooks.
https://cnn.com/2019/02/27/investing/weight-watchers-earnings-stock-ww-oprah-winfrey-keto/index.html
Sure, sure, and nobody has ever tried to monetize the ketogenic diet.
https://weightwatchers.com/ca/en/article/benefits-coconut-oil
True. It seems WW has taken the position if you can not beat them then join the keto crowd and perhaps they will not be the last big company to start promoting into the Keto world wide revival since 100 years later Keto is stronger than ever in the minds of the masses.
You obviously have no clue about WW. Almost all high fat foods, red meats and things like butter and oils are extremely high in points. The exception is fatty fish. Doing keto on WW would be very difficult.
You have to give them credit for trying to pull it off. I was taken back when their CEO named Keto as a reason for performance issues. I read they introduced a new point system. It seems Hollywood has more top players behind Keto than WW. The more negative things coming out about Keto the better we will know it's gaining in popularity. Example is the crotch sound bite.19 -
what IN THE WORLD is keto crotch!!!! is this a real thing?0
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lleeann2001 wrote: »what IN THE WORLD is keto crotch!!!! is this a real thing?
It's a clickbait story that's been making the rounds recently... But I've heard anecdotally some people saying similar things.1 -
lleeann2001 wrote: »what IN THE WORLD is keto crotch!!!! is this a real thing?
https://www.foxnews.com/food-drink/keto-crotch-called-out-as-stinky-side-effect-of-popular-diet1 -
The more people dislike a thing, the more popular we know it is? Sounds contradictory, but ok.GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »@fatblatta you may be onto something about keto being harmful to big pocketbooks.
https://cnn.com/2019/02/27/investing/weight-watchers-earnings-stock-ww-oprah-winfrey-keto/index.html
Sure, sure, and nobody has ever tried to monetize the ketogenic diet.
https://weightwatchers.com/ca/en/article/benefits-coconut-oil
True. It seems WW has taken the position if you can not beat them then join the keto crowd and perhaps they will not be the last big company to start promoting into the Keto world wide revival since 100 years later Keto is stronger than ever in the minds of the masses.
You obviously have no clue about WW. Almost all high fat foods, red meats and things like butter and oils are extremely high in points. The exception is fatty fish. Doing keto on WW would be very difficult.
You have to give them credit for trying to pull it off. I was taken back when their CEO named Keto as a reason for performance issues. I read they introduced a new point system. It seems Hollywood has more top players behind Keto than WW. The more negative things coming out about Keto the better we will know it's gaining in popularity. Example is the crotch sound bite.
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OP, if you're still reading, I hope this thread has at least been entertaining. The key is that different diets work better for different people and in different ways. Don't get caught in the trap of defining yourself or your lifestyle by a diet, it leaves you in an uncomfortable corner. Keep playing around with different options and strategies until you find a way and a schedule of eating that makes it easiest to stay at the right calorie level AND makes you happy. If you can achieve and then maintain a healthy weight, have enough energy to be relatively active, and see good results on your blood work over time, then your diet is "good", whatever it is. There are folks here who have succeeded long term using just about every strategy under the sun. :drinker:6
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GaleHawkins wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »@fatblatta you may be onto something about keto being harmful to big pocketbooks.
https://cnn.com/2019/02/27/investing/weight-watchers-earnings-stock-ww-oprah-winfrey-keto/index.html
Sure, sure, and nobody has ever tried to monetize the ketogenic diet.
https://weightwatchers.com/ca/en/article/benefits-coconut-oil
True. It seems WW has taken the position if you can not beat them then join the keto crowd and perhaps they will not be the last big company to start promoting into the Keto world wide revival since 100 years later Keto is stronger than ever in the minds of the masses.
Wait, what? I'm not claiming that WW is joining the keto fad. I'm claiming it's ridiculous to think that those who aren't touting the miracles of keto are strictly motivated by money. There's plenty of money being made from keto too, just by a different set of people.
This talk about a "world wide revival" of keto is plain creepy. Not doing much to dispel the perception that this is more of a religious conviction than one based on facts. Keto is "stronger than ever in the minds of the masses"? That's not a reasonable way to talk about diet.
Ketogenic dieters don't own coconut oil, you know. Yes, you eat it. But I'm vegan and I've also been eating it for years. Lots of people eat it.17 -
lleeann2001 wrote: »what IN THE WORLD is keto crotch!!!! is this a real thing?
https://www.foxnews.com/food-drink/keto-crotch-called-out-as-stinky-side-effect-of-popular-diet
Apparently some people find that to be the case...or something.
I was keto for 1.5 years straight, and I never had that side effect. In fact, I've been LC for almost 5 years and very active in many forums across the interwebz, and I've NEVER even heard of "keto crotch" until now.
It's being said that crotch fragrance is the convo du jour at r/keto.
Suddenly crotch n=1 is newsworthy. Classy.
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janejellyroll wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »@fatblatta you may be onto something about keto being harmful to big pocketbooks.
https://cnn.com/2019/02/27/investing/weight-watchers-earnings-stock-ww-oprah-winfrey-keto/index.html
Sure, sure, and nobody has ever tried to monetize the ketogenic diet.
https://weightwatchers.com/ca/en/article/benefits-coconut-oil
True. It seems WW has taken the position if you can not beat them then join the keto crowd and perhaps they will not be the last big company to start promoting into the Keto world wide revival since 100 years later Keto is stronger than ever in the minds of the masses.
Wait, what? I'm not claiming that WW is joining the keto fad. I'm claiming it's ridiculous to think that those who aren't touting the miracles of keto are strictly motivated by money. There's plenty of money being made from keto too, just by a different set of people.
This talk about a "world wide revival" of keto is plain creepy. Not doing much to dispel the perception that this is more of a religious conviction than one based on facts. Keto is "stronger than ever in the minds of the masses"? That's not a reasonable way to talk about diet.
Ketogenic dieters don't own coconut oil, you know. Yes, you eat it. But I'm vegan and I've also been eating it for years. Lots of people eat it.
Totally agree with the bolded! That's just plain weird.10 -
baconslave wrote: »lleeann2001 wrote: »what IN THE WORLD is keto crotch!!!! is this a real thing?
https://www.foxnews.com/food-drink/keto-crotch-called-out-as-stinky-side-effect-of-popular-diet
Apparently some people find that to be the case...or something.
I was keto for 1.5 years straight, and I never had that side effect. In fact, I've been LC for almost 5 years and very active in many forums across the interwebz, and I've NEVER even heard of "keto crotch" until now.
It's being said that crotch fragrance is the convo du jour at r/keto.
Suddenly crotch n=1 is newsworthy. Classy.
Well, I wouldn't imagine too many people admitting to this issue on a public forum, though I imagine behind closed doors there may be some awkward conversations taking place between partners where one/both are following keto.
Back when I experimented with paleo/primal I was having all sorts of unpleasant side effects. Never would have admitted them out loud though because I was so far down the rabbit hole. My husband did finally say something though, and that's when I realized how bad things were.
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LoL @ " in the minds of the masses"2
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lleeann2001 wrote: »LoL @ " in the minds of the masses"
Bringing keto to the hoi polloi.4 -
baconslave wrote: »lleeann2001 wrote: »what IN THE WORLD is keto crotch!!!! is this a real thing?
https://www.foxnews.com/food-drink/keto-crotch-called-out-as-stinky-side-effect-of-popular-diet
Apparently some people find that to be the case...or something.
I was keto for 1.5 years straight, and I never had that side effect. In fact, I've been LC for almost 5 years and very active in many forums across the interwebz, and I've NEVER even heard of "keto crotch" until now.
It's being said that crotch fragrance is the convo du jour at r/keto.
Suddenly crotch n=1 is newsworthy. Classy.
Well, I wouldn't imagine too many people admitting to this issue on a public forum, though I imagine behind closed doors there may be some awkward conversations taking place between partners where one/both are following keto.
Back when I experimented with paleo/primal I was having all sorts of unpleasant side effects. Never would have admitted them out loud though because I was so far down the rabbit hole. My husband did finally say something though, and that's when I realized how bad things were.
I dunno. I've found many keto folk are all about the TMI stories. It matters not.
Sorry you had that experience.
I thought keto made my armpits smell like a lockerroom crammed full of sweaty,2-days unshowered, power lifters. When I stopped keto after I hit goal (I'm still LC-ish 5 days a week), it turns out that's just the way I am. I had started working out intensely during weightloss with keto and kept the habit. I still sweat like mad and stink from working out. Yay... Oh well. That's what showers are for. And clinical strength antiperspirant.
My husband makes fun of me. He'll come in the room while I'm working out and quip (still to this day) "Smells like ketosis in here." Hardeeharhar, *kitten*. But he's a turd anyway, so he would have found something else to rib me about if I didn't have that lovely characteristic. 
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If the veggie people are talking about "Huge Global Studies" about Keto then someone was perhaps asleep while the minds of the masses were thinking about the different WOE's out there today. I know on Keto I am moving to a more plant based way of eating than ever. If one reads Missing Microbes by Martin J. Blaser, MD she will learn many diseases can be associated mass produced meats even before discussing saturated fats as being good, bad or indifferent to longevity. On the other hand processed carbs could short life as well due to chemicals added at the farm and later. Physical death is coming one way or another some say. I like to learn from the Blue Zones but for many in the USA that way of life is a pipe dream often unless one fully embraces a religious group with that lifestyle.
https://bluezones.com/2018/09/news-study-finds-low-carb-or-keto-diets-could-lead-to-shorter-lifespan/
Alarming Levels of Glyphosate Found in Popular American Foods
While this is not a recent research there is a new one about what is in wine and beers causing health concerns. Food supplies today contain more than just carbs, protein and fats it seems.
https://ecowatch.com/monsanto-glyphosate-cheerios-2093130379.html
".....According to the report, the herbicide residues were found in cookies, crackers, popular cold cereals and chips commonly consumed by children and adults....."16 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »I know on Keto I am moving to a more plant based way of eating than ever.
If so, that just shows that you must not have eaten lots of plants when not doing keto.
I'll say again that although I think you can get sufficient veg on keto, I ate more carbs than most doing keto and found that with just a serving of nuts and the amount of non starchy veg (plus avocado) I like to eat and eat normally, I would be over my carbs. I had to cut back my vegetables.
In addition to that, I couldn't eat starchy veg like beans and lentils, potatoes and sweet potatoes, fruit, or whole grains.
So if someone finds they are eating more plants on keto, I think they must have had far far fewer plants in their previous diet than I can imagine feeling happy on, and of course they very easily could have included as many or more plants on a non keto diet.
There is nothing about the blue zone way of eating that is a "pipe dream" in the US, if you choose to eat that way.
Confused about the mention of "mass produced meats" as bad from someone who promotes McDs patties.15 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »If the veggie people are talking about "Huge Global Studies" about Keto then someone was perhaps asleep while the minds of the masses were thinking about the different WOE's out there today. I know on Keto I am moving to a more plant based way of eating than ever. If one reads Missing Microbes by Martin J. Blaser, MD she will learn many diseases can be associated mass produced meats even before discussing saturated fats as being good, bad or indifferent to longevity. On the other hand processed carbs could short life as well due to chemicals added at the farm and later. Physical death is coming one way or another some say. I like to learn from the Blue Zones but for many in the USA that way of life is a pipe dream often unless one fully embraces a religious group with that lifestyle.
https://bluezones.com/2018/09/news-study-finds-low-carb-or-keto-diets-could-lead-to-shorter-lifespan/
Alarming Levels of Glyphosate Found in Popular American Foods
While this is not a recent research there is a new one about what is in wine and beers causing health concerns. Food supplies today contain more than just carbs, protein and fats it seems.
https://ecowatch.com/monsanto-glyphosate-cheerios-2093130379.html
".....According to the report, the herbicide residues were found in cookies, crackers, popular cold cereals and chips commonly consumed by children and adults....."
Who are the "veggie people"? I'm having trouble following what exactly you mean by the "minds of the masses."
I do know that some people doing keto report that they are eating more vegetables than they did before. I would say that these people typically were not eating a lot of vegetables prior to going keto. While you may be eating more plants than you did before, it's still usually not what we would describe as a vegetable-rich diet.
Why do you think the "blue zones" are a pipe dream unless one also embraces religion? Do you not think it's possible that all of us -- regardless of where we are spiritually -- can adapt the concepts of social connectedness, mindfulness, and living with purpose to fit our lives?14 -
The only Blue Zone that even remotely involves religion is the Loma Linda 7th Day Adventists, and nothing they are doing is at all difficult in the US, or requires some kind of religious practice. They are vegetarians who are very active and social.
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If your diet is as bad as @GaleHawkins was (his own admission) then any change (like adding some veg) will have positive results. As with most cult diets, too much credit is given to the diet and not enough to the general improvements overall. Example, lose weight and get healthy. Was it the diet that got you healthy or was it mostly the weight loss in and of itself? In my experience it is the latter. Any diet can get you there, keto included, so choose the one you can stick to and be consistent on. Consistency is king...10
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janejellyroll wrote: »
Why do you think the "blue zones" are a pipe dream unless one also embraces religion? Do you not think it's possible that all of us -- regardless of where we are spiritually -- can adapt the concepts of social connectedness, mindfulness, and living with purpose to fit our lives?
I'm hung up on this too. I know certain religions have some dietary restrictions, but I've never heard of having to embrace a religion in order to have a certain diet. Screams cultish to me.4 -
janejellyroll wrote: »
Why do you think the "blue zones" are a pipe dream unless one also embraces religion? Do you not think it's possible that all of us -- regardless of where we are spiritually -- can adapt the concepts of social connectedness, mindfulness, and living with purpose to fit our lives?
I'm hung up on this too. I know certain religions have some dietary restrictions, but I've never heard of having to embrace a religion in order to have a certain diet. Screams cultish to me.
It's a line I've seen some people use to argue against the idea that the "blue zones" have anything to suggest about healthy dietary patterns, that it's not the diet that gives the benefit . . . it's something else that can't be replicated. Now I don't think anyone *is* arguing that it is exclusively the diet, people in the blue zones do seem to have clear patterns of staying active and being socially connected. Some of the blue zones are marked by certain religious traditions. I don't think that means we can conclude that diet has nothing to do with it. I certainly disagree that we should use that to conclude that there is only one healthful human diet and it's keto.
Concluding that we shouldn't eat more plants because we don't want to convert to being a Seventh Day Adventist . . . . just ridiculous.10 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
Why do you think the "blue zones" are a pipe dream unless one also embraces religion? Do you not think it's possible that all of us -- regardless of where we are spiritually -- can adapt the concepts of social connectedness, mindfulness, and living with purpose to fit our lives?
I'm hung up on this too. I know certain religions have some dietary restrictions, but I've never heard of having to embrace a religion in order to have a certain diet. Screams cultish to me.
It's a line I've seen some people use to argue against the idea that the "blue zones" have anything to suggest about healthy dietary patterns, that it's not the diet that gives the benefit . . . it's something else that can't be replicated. Now I don't think anyone *is* arguing that it is exclusively the diet, people in the blue zones do seem to have clear patterns of staying active and being socially connected. Some of the blue zones are marked by certain religious traditions. I don't think that means we can conclude that diet has nothing to do with it. I certainly disagree that we should use that to conclude that there is only one healthful human diet and it's keto.
Concluding that we shouldn't eat more plants because we don't want to convert to being a Seventh Day Adventist . . . . just ridiculous.
Thanks for expanding that a bit for me. I agree it's ridiculous and I've heard that first bold cited for a rather vast number of arguments, most of which usually fall flat when dissected.
The "It can't be replicated" argument basically shields the person making the claims from any objective accountability, and can open the door to some really unhealthy ideas. Anecdotal, but I've seen a person go down a road like that. No thank you.6
This discussion has been closed.
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