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“Large” Restaurant Customers need special accommodation?
Replies
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I’m not sure what I think on this subject. In the past at size 28 I have been so large that certain seats didn’t fit me comfortably and I could barely squeeze into a booth, so I’m familiar with the feeling. I know also that it was completely within my control to lose weight - but also that it wasn’t easy and that life happens and that I had other priorities and needs at the time. Even if it were reasonable to expect all obese people to lose weight, which it’s not, it simply won’t happen. Fat people exist and are not going to stop existing, so if you believe in being nice to people, which I do, you are going to need to be nice to some fat ones. That means giving them a comfortable place to sit.
In practical terms restaurants will do what benefits the bottom line. Which means if a large number of diners require larger seats, those seats will become available. I have noticed that most booths seem to be getting deeper.
I have a friend who once weighed 650 lbs (he weighs less now, since his obesity nearly killed him and in the hospital the dietician did not cater to his wants, and he lost a huge amount of weight due to being unable to get the volume of food he preferred). This kind of massive obesity is definitely a disability. As an outsider looking in, I can’t pretend to understand how someone gets to this point or what kind of mental state is behind it - he required frightening amounts of food every day to stay as big as he did, and when he lost his ability to be mobile, he also lost weight because no one was willing to feed him that amount of food. To me his behavior doesn’t look like a controlled decision, it looks like a type of mental illness. However, I am not an expert and don’t know. I do know that it’s not my job to judge him, just to be a friend.
My friend was aware of the inability of most places to accommodate him. He always carried his own chair because a normal chair would break - at the movies he would set it in the aisle. At restaurants he would pull it up to the edge of a table or booth. It wasn’t a problem because he took responsibility for his own needs and provided for them.
He felt, and I believe I agree, that it’s not reasonable to expect all places to provide for the needs of such a small minority of people. Compare this to, say, allergies - a lot of people are allergic to peanuts, so food manufacturers are careful about listing them in the ingredients. I know a guy who is deathly allergic to peppers. Very few people are, so peppers are not listed under common allergens on menus. It’s reasonable to expect restaurants to provide for a wide variety of customers, but should not be expected for them to have accommodations ready for very rare situations.10 -
It's interesting to me that this type of experience used to be seen as a source of personal shame, and now it's a reason for offense at others, because they have not accommodated the size of the person.17
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FWIW, this past Sunday evening I responded to a medical emergency call (genius accidentally shot himself in the leg). He was morbidly obese, to put it mildly. It was bad enough that it took an entire team of EMT's to get him onto the stretcher, but the BIG PROBLEM was it took over an hour to get a hospital that was WILLING & ABLE to FLY him out by chopper because he was TOO HEAVY FOR THE MEDICAL HELICOPTERS that were immediately available. So, yeah, it's not that big of an issue for a restaurant owner to purchase a chair that accommodates a heavier/larger person; that's simply scaling up a bit to make someone comfortable. But when you're talking equipment that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars (not even considering the newer ambulances, stretchers, etc that have to accommodate larger people) that is ready-to-go at the drop of a hat...where does it end?
Also, to take this in an entirely different direction - my dad's whole side of the family is WAY above average in height. My FEMALE cousin was 6'2" by the time she turned 16. Should all women's stores/clothing lines/shoes/etc be required, or even expected, to accommodate someone who is in the 1% in terms of those dimensions? I owned a car (Mazda Miata) when I was much younger and my dad literally could not get into the vehicle without his knees pressed fully against the dash and his head against the roof.15 -
manderson27 wrote: »@ceiswyn I am really sorry that your experience made you hate yourself and want to take your own life. That is awful, but we are not talking here about people insulting obese people or shaming them that is a whole different debate.
Restaurants are not shaming people by using average seating they are just being practical. What we are debating is how far should business go to cater for obese people? If we provide larger and larger seating in public places it is normalising obesity. It is sending the message that it's ok you don't need to change we will cater for you. We will work around you and make the world easier for you to access so there is no need to worry about your weight anymore, after all there are so many more obese people now it is the new norm.
It is not because the chairs are too small that you can't sit in them comfortably it is because you are carrying too much fat.
I am sorry if that upsets people but that was the hard truth I had to learn. The world was not to blame for the fact that I had trouble finding clothes, tying my shoes, walking up stairs, sitting in chairs, flying in planes, getting through turnstiles. It was not the worlds job to design things to fit my oversized body.
I came to the conclusion that it would be much easier to change my body to fit the world than to try and change the world to fit my body.
I never blamed the world when I couldn't fit into certain seats, I just chose places where I could fit just like I choose certain clothing brands now over others because they flatter my post weight loss body better. I'm not asking for brands to design specifically for people who have lost a lot of weight, but it feels nice when something fits. The inconvenience of having to try things on more than the average person does not motivate me to regain weight, it is what it is.
Entitlement is not really the issue here. The problem is that we're talking utopia because ideally, people would not be morbidly obese. The reality is completely different. Some people are morbidly obese either by choice or because they lack the skill set needed to control weight. Not taking them into account when choosing a design will not change that and may not be the best business decision. For every person the inconvenience may motivate to lose weight there will be another person who sinks deeper into it using the only self-comfort mechanism they know - eating.
A person's body is something dear and personal. It remains dear even if it goes out of style or becomes socially undesirable. It's not just something you do, it's something you are, so the issue is more complicated than smoking or shoulder pads. It requires compassion and understanding, not a knee-jerk reaction or even petty.
I didn't think the article was unreasonable. It did not demand changes, but it tried to spread awareness that an issue exists because not everyone realizes they can do better for their customers. What establishment owners choose to do is entirely up to them, and in no way are they required to do anything.16 -
manderson27 wrote: »@ceiswyn I am really sorry that your experience made you hate yourself and want to take your own life. That is awful, but we are not talking here about people insulting obese people or shaming them that is a whole different debate.
Restaurants are not shaming people by using average seating they are just being practical. What we are debating is how far should business go to cater for obese people? If we provide larger and larger seating in public places it is normalising obesity. It is sending the message that it's ok you don't need to change we will cater for you. We will work around you and make the world easier for you to access so there is no need to worry about your weight anymore, after all there are so many more obese people now it is the new norm.
It is not because the chairs are too small that you can't sit in them comfortably it is because you are carrying too much fat.
I am sorry if that upsets people but that was the hard truth I had to learn. The world was not to blame for the fact that I had trouble finding clothes, tying my shoes, walking up stairs, sitting in chairs, flying in planes, getting through turnstiles. It was not the worlds job to design things to fit my oversized body.
I came to the conclusion that it would be much easier to change my body to fit the world than to try and change the world to fit my body.
When you are genuinely arguing that obese people shouldn’t have anywhere to sit because that might encourage them to stay obese, then yes, we kind of are talking about shaming them. You’re still just saying ‘let’s make the world really unpleasant and uncomfortable for obese people so they decide not to be obese’.
And what I am saying is that it just doesn’t work that way.
Making the world unpleasant and unwelcoming doesn’t make obese people suddenly discover the physical and mental skills they need to change their lives. For the most part, it just makes them miserable and stressed. Misery and stress are not healthy, and nor do they generally encourage good and healthy decisions.36 -
If most people found shame an effective motivator to make positive changes, the majority of people would already be slim. Barring a small minority, people generally didn't aspire to be overweight or obese, and they're definitely not proud of their bodies the way they are. This includes most of the fat-positive bloggers, in my opinion.
And yet, the National Center for Health Statistics estimates that, for 2015-2016 in the U.S., 71.6% of adults aged 20 and over were overweight or obese and according to a WHO study in 2014, 62% of adults in England were classified as overweight or obese.
Clearly making people feel ashamed hasn't worked yet, and it's not going to suddenly start working. I think it might be time to try a new strategy.
Stats taken from wikipedia14 -
Regarding the bold - without (hopefully) taking the discussion into prohibited territory per forum rules....what if, say...a country had an absolutely awesome, incredible first lady who developed and implemented a program to teach school children about the importance of proper nutrition in an effort to combat obesity, and everyone loved it except the next admin to take power...who cancelled it? No one here ought to miss that referenceHeliumIsNoble wrote: »If most people found shame an effective motivator to make positive changes, the majority of people would already be slim. Barring a small minority, people generally didn't aspire to be overweight or obese, and they're definitely not proud of their bodies the way they are. This includes most of the fat-positive bloggers, in my opinion.
And yet, the National Center for Health Statistics estimates that, for 2015-2016 in the U.S., 71.6% of adults aged 20 and over were overweight or obese and according to a WHO study in 2014, 62% of adults in England were classified as overweight or obese.
Clearly making people feel ashamed hasn't worked yet, and it's not going to suddenly start working. I think it might be time to try a new strategy.
Stats taken from wikipedia
The tenuous point I'm trying to make is that we're strategy limited apparently, at the governmental level, and motivationally limited at the personal level...what's next for a strategy?
I do agree with you by the way, strongly. I just see slippery slopes in one direction and steep cliffs in the other. Real change motivators usually need to come from within, or from a source that carries strong enough promise to gain traction.
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Believe me, I know. I'm watching my own government fall apart.
Regarding the bold - without (hopefully) taking the discussion into prohibited territory per forum rules....what if, say...a country had an absolutely awesome, incredible first lady who developed and implemented a program to teach school children about the importance of proper nutrition in an effort to combat obesity, and everyone loved it except the next admin to take power...who cancelled it? No one here ought to miss that referenceHeliumIsNoble wrote: »If most people found shame an effective motivator to make positive changes, the majority of people would already be slim. Barring a small minority, people generally didn't aspire to be overweight or obese, and they're definitely not proud of their bodies the way they are. This includes most of the fat-positive bloggers, in my opinion.
And yet, the National Center for Health Statistics estimates that, for 2015-2016 in the U.S., 71.6% of adults aged 20 and over were overweight or obese and according to a WHO study in 2014, 62% of adults in England were classified as overweight or obese.
Clearly making people feel ashamed hasn't worked yet, and it's not going to suddenly start working. I think it might be time to try a new strategy.
Stats taken from wikipedia
The tenuous point I'm trying to make is that we're strategy limited apparently, at the governmental level, and motivationally limited at the personal level...what's next for a strategy?
I do agree with you by the way, strongly. I just see slippery slopes in one direction and steep cliffs in the other. Real change motivators usually need to come from within, or from a source that carries strong enough promise to gain traction.
All the most effective strategies I've ever seen suggested need top-down implementation.
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Maybe a restaurateur or waiter/tress could enlighten me. Is there much call for most restaurants to provide better seating for the obese in terms of increasing footfall? I'm just thinking about how lots of women demanded larger dummies in clothes shops but it's made no difference to sales of larger sizes when it's been implemented. Or how shops don't usually stock clothing above a certain size, or indeed below or for particularly short or tall people but certain lobbies suggest that they should be able to walk into any clothes shop and find clothes literally for ALL sizes (ie just the morbidly obese). Again, this would be a loss to the retailer as it's, at the moment, a minority market. I'm clueless as to the proportion of Americans that are so fat as to require this level of accommodation.4
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Regarding the bold - without (hopefully) taking the discussion into prohibited territory per forum rules....what if, say...a country had an absolutely awesome, incredible first lady who developed and implemented a program to teach school children about the importance of proper nutrition in an effort to combat obesity, and everyone loved it except the next admin to take power...who cancelled it? No one here ought to miss that referenceHeliumIsNoble wrote: »If most people found shame an effective motivator to make positive changes, the majority of people would already be slim. Barring a small minority, people generally didn't aspire to be overweight or obese, and they're definitely not proud of their bodies the way they are. This includes most of the fat-positive bloggers, in my opinion.
And yet, the National Center for Health Statistics estimates that, for 2015-2016 in the U.S., 71.6% of adults aged 20 and over were overweight or obese and according to a WHO study in 2014, 62% of adults in England were classified as overweight or obese.
Clearly making people feel ashamed hasn't worked yet, and it's not going to suddenly start working. I think it might be time to try a new strategy.
Stats taken from wikipedia
The tenuous point I'm trying to make is that we're strategy limited apparently, at the governmental level, and motivationally limited at the personal level...what's next for a strategy?
I do agree with you by the way, strongly. I just see slippery slopes in one direction and steep cliffs in the other. Real change motivators usually need to come from within, or from a source that carries strong enough promise to gain traction.
Politics lies downstream of culture. Attempts to move culture requires persuasion. Government historically uses force to persuade. The Right would do well to acknowledge, love, and respect the imagination of the Left. The Left would do well to acknowledge, love, and respect the pragmatism of the Right.
There's a fundamental flaw in governance that assumes that man is good and has good intentions. Good policy presumes human error as fundamental and implements processes of positive reinforcement, ownership, and personal responsibility - all leading to collective responsibility and collective good.11 -
manderson27 wrote: »@ceiswyn I am really sorry that your experience made you hate yourself and want to take your own life. That is awful, but we are not talking here about people insulting obese people or shaming them that is a whole different debate.
Restaurants are not shaming people by using average seating they are just being practical. What we are debating is how far should business go to cater for obese people? If we provide larger and larger seating in public places it is normalising obesity. It is sending the message that it's ok you don't need to change we will cater for you. We will work around you and make the world easier for you to access so there is no need to worry about your weight anymore, after all there are so many more obese people now it is the new norm.
I don't disagree with this, and I suspect many businesses will decide to make things more comfortable for obese people, because, well, business, so I see it as something of a non-issue.
But I don't think that's really responsive to @ceiswyn's post. I think she was directly addressing the assertions in this thread that making fat people feel uncomfortable or shaming them is a good thing, as then they will wise up and lose the weight. Her post was explaining why that doesn't actually work, at least in her experience, and can be a rather cruel perspective. I see a big difference between saying a restaurant does not have to change its seating in order the accommodate the very obese and saying "it's a positive to make fat people feel as uncomfortable as possible, as that will make them see." And I saw people saying that here (and rather suspect those were the people who cruelly woo'd @ceiswyn's post. If I'm right on that, I hope they feel ashamed of themselves for that, at least, although probably not.
I say this as someone who found feeling shame and like I should hide myself away when fat to be counterproductive to weight loss -- it was when I decided to like myself anyway and care about myself enough to lose weight that I was able to, and people thinking they needed to tell me I was fat would not have helped me there. (I was always the first to mention it or joke about it to prevent well-meaning idiots trying to claim they just thought I might not know I was fat or that it was bad to be fat.) And I also say it as someone who finds one of the positives about not being fat that everything fits me easier, and I no longer have to feel like I have to apologize to some guy next to me on the plane even when he's the one whose clearly in my space vs. the opposition since I'm as careful as possible not to take up more than my share.8 -
jennifer_417 wrote: »It's interesting to me that this type of experience used to be seen as a source of personal shame, and now it's a reason for offense at others, because they have not accommodated the size of the person.
That's not what the article or -- especially -- any posters here have said. No one here is saying fat people should be offended by restaurant seats.11 -
Size shaming, regardless of the size (larger or smaller) is inappropriate and probably ineffective for most people. However, I would like to think that restaurants are not seeking to shame people since it's both inappropriate and bad for business. Raising awareness that this is a problem for larger people, as the lady in the article is trying to do, is fine, but what they do about it is ultimately up to the restaurant, and it's going to come down to profit in the end. Is it helping or hurting their bottom line to use more space to accommodate a smaller percentage of potential costumers?
Say a restaurant decided to give up some of the extra space to set aside three booths that could accommodate larger people. They are already lowering the max number they can seat on a busy night. If nobody large enough shows up for a while, are they supposed to hold those tables in case someone who needs it shows up? If they do, and all the smaller people who have been waiting half an hour to be seated see a party with a larger person walk right up to the table, are they going to think the restaurant is doing the right thing, or will they be annoyed and possibly walk out? Could this be considered discriminating against the average to smaller size people?
The restaurants have to consider all these things and how it affects their bottom line. I can see this being less of an issue with a large chain restaurant, but for a small locally owned place, these decisions could mean the difference between feeding their own families and going under.7 -
I would say today that politics is attempting to shape and drive culture. I do agree with your assertions and would love to see that in practice as well as ideal, but....
Regarding the bold - without (hopefully) taking the discussion into prohibited territory per forum rules....what if, say...a country had an absolutely awesome, incredible first lady who developed and implemented a program to teach school children about the importance of proper nutrition in an effort to combat obesity, and everyone loved it except the next admin to take power...who cancelled it? No one here ought to miss that referenceHeliumIsNoble wrote: »If most people found shame an effective motivator to make positive changes, the majority of people would already be slim. Barring a small minority, people generally didn't aspire to be overweight or obese, and they're definitely not proud of their bodies the way they are. This includes most of the fat-positive bloggers, in my opinion.
And yet, the National Center for Health Statistics estimates that, for 2015-2016 in the U.S., 71.6% of adults aged 20 and over were overweight or obese and according to a WHO study in 2014, 62% of adults in England were classified as overweight or obese.
Clearly making people feel ashamed hasn't worked yet, and it's not going to suddenly start working. I think it might be time to try a new strategy.
Stats taken from wikipedia
The tenuous point I'm trying to make is that we're strategy limited apparently, at the governmental level, and motivationally limited at the personal level...what's next for a strategy?
I do agree with you by the way, strongly. I just see slippery slopes in one direction and steep cliffs in the other. Real change motivators usually need to come from within, or from a source that carries strong enough promise to gain traction.
Politics lies downstream of culture. Attempts to move culture requires persuasion. Government historically uses force to persuade. The Right would do well to acknowledge, love, and respect the imagination of the Left. The Left would do well to acknowledge, love, and respect the pragmatism of the Right.
There's a fundamental flaw in governance that assumes that man is good and has good intentions. Good policy presumes human error as fundamental and implements processes of positive reinforcement, ownership, and personal responsibility - all leading to collective responsibility and collective good.
RE: the bold - it seemed to me her plan met that requirement for good policy. Most importantly, people were listening, quite a milestone in achievement these days.
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@lemurcat12 Regarding woos, I see someone's just woo'd me for my opinion on today's events in UK politics, so...
Either that, or they didn't pick up on my nationality and assumed my post was about current events in US politics.
Either way, if they're one of the ones who woo'd Ceiswyn, I wouldn't put any value on their opinions on anything.11 -
HeliumIsNoble wrote: »@lemurcat12 Regarding woos, I see someone's just woo'd me for my opinion on today's events in UK politics, so...
I got a couple too. I'm collecting them lol.
Is it too much to ask that the "wooer" voice their opinion as well? You know, debate forum and all...3 -
Actually, I think I'd rather have woos than discuss the Brexit débâcle on yet another forum. It's bad enough living it in real life and discussing it on all the rest of my social media.HeliumIsNoble wrote: »@lemurcat12 Regarding woos, I see someone's just woo'd me for my opinion on today's events in UK politics, so...
I got a couple too. I'm collecting them lol.
Is it too much to ask that the "wooer" voice their opinion as well? You know, debate forum and all...
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HeliumIsNoble wrote: »
Believe me, I know. I'm watching my own government fall apart.
Regarding the bold - without (hopefully) taking the discussion into prohibited territory per forum rules....what if, say...a country had an absolutely awesome, incredible first lady who developed and implemented a program to teach school children about the importance of proper nutrition in an effort to combat obesity, and everyone loved it except the next admin to take power...who cancelled it? No one here ought to miss that referenceHeliumIsNoble wrote: »If most people found shame an effective motivator to make positive changes, the majority of people would already be slim. Barring a small minority, people generally didn't aspire to be overweight or obese, and they're definitely not proud of their bodies the way they are. This includes most of the fat-positive bloggers, in my opinion.
And yet, the National Center for Health Statistics estimates that, for 2015-2016 in the U.S., 71.6% of adults aged 20 and over were overweight or obese and according to a WHO study in 2014, 62% of adults in England were classified as overweight or obese.
Clearly making people feel ashamed hasn't worked yet, and it's not going to suddenly start working. I think it might be time to try a new strategy.
Stats taken from wikipedia
The tenuous point I'm trying to make is that we're strategy limited apparently, at the governmental level, and motivationally limited at the personal level...what's next for a strategy?
I do agree with you by the way, strongly. I just see slippery slopes in one direction and steep cliffs in the other. Real change motivators usually need to come from within, or from a source that carries strong enough promise to gain traction.
All the most effective strategies I've ever seen suggested need top-down implementation.
I missed this earlier @HeliumIsNoble sorry.
I tend to agree, but I'm one of those that are concerned with anything oversight becoming over reach. Not that we've never seen gov't initiatives mismanaged and all. Here, school meals have to be approved at the state level due to federal funds being used, and the results, locally anyway, are less than stellar in my opinion.
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HeliumIsNoble wrote: »
Actually, I think I'd rather have woos than discuss the Brexit débâcle on yet another forum. It's bad enough living it in real life and discussing it on all the rest of my social media.HeliumIsNoble wrote: »@lemurcat12 Regarding woos, I see someone's just woo'd me for my opinion on today's events in UK politics, so...
I got a couple too. I'm collecting them lol.
Is it too much to ask that the "wooer" voice their opinion as well? You know, debate forum and all...
You do have a good point there
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manderson27 wrote: »@ceiswyn I am really sorry that your experience made you hate yourself and want to take your own life. That is awful, but we are not talking here about people insulting obese people or shaming them that is a whole different debate.
Restaurants are not shaming people by using average seating they are just being practical. What we are debating is how far should business go to cater for obese people? If we provide larger and larger seating in public places it is normalising obesity. It is sending the message that it's ok you don't need to change we will cater for you. We will work around you and make the world easier for you to access so there is no need to worry about your weight anymore, after all there are so many more obese people now it is the new norm.
It is not because the chairs are too small that you can't sit in them comfortably it is because you are carrying too much fat.
I am sorry if that upsets people but that was the hard truth I had to learn. The world was not to blame for the fact that I had trouble finding clothes, tying my shoes, walking up stairs, sitting in chairs, flying in planes, getting through turnstiles. It was not the worlds job to design things to fit my oversized body.
I came to the conclusion that it would be much easier to change my body to fit the world than to try and change the world to fit my body.
A restaurant's role is literally to cater to customers. I'm not saying they are obligated to make obese people feel comfortable. But if they choose to do so, I don't see how that is substantially different than the other things they do to appeal to customers.14
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