What new or revised public policy/law would make it easier for people to maintain a healthy weight?

Personally, I don't think any public policies or laws will help much. It's actually not really that difficult right now. The tools are all there, people choose not to use them.

I don't know anyone IRL who pays attention to the calorie counts on menus, they say they're just depressed by the numbers and they don't really understand how it applies to them specifically anyway. Most people who ask me about calorie counting assume everyone should be eating 2000 calories, and if you exercise for an hour you're burning 500 cals because that's what all the video workouts advertise.

If smaller locations determined calorie counts themselves (rather than paying to send them out to a lab) I honestly wouldn't trust them anyway. How would I know that the person who did the math actually knew what they were doing? Or that they were even being honest? Even at chain restaurants, you have to assume the person doing the cooking is following the rules and cooking/serving the way they're supposed to. You still have to use critical thinking and your own experience when the plate is set down in front of you and you start to eat.

People want the most bang for their buck. They want the bigger size because it's a bargain. They want to buy their kid a sugary drink because it will keep them from crying in the store. They will fight you for that parking space so they don't have to walk those 15 extra steps.

I think the only things that would really make a difference are education and perhaps community agendas to get people moving and prioritizing a mindful diet. How exactly that would work, I have no idea. But more about convincing people to take responsibility for their choices and make it a priority, make it just a thing that everyone does. I get told all the time that I'm "being good" by bringing my lunch, not taking a second piece of cake, taking a walk on my break. People know what to do. For whatever reason, they don't do it.

My dad often tells me he doesn't want to think about or analyze his food, he just wants to enjoy it. A coworker always says she doesn't want to waste time at the gym, she wants to enjoy her life. If someone could figure out how to convince people those two things aren't mutually exclusive - that you can think about your diet and enjoy food, that being active and exercising can be enjoyable, that you don't need to be a "health nut" to live a fun & healthy life - they might solve the whole dang thing.

Policy can only go so far. It could be that a seeing a generation or two dying of obesity-related causes will be what turns the tide.

at thinking "nutrition counts" at restaurants are even in the ballpark.

Maybe at fast food places they may be close, but at any full service restaurant your actual portion could be off by several hundred calories depending on who prepared it and who your server is.

If they are human, they're going to be way off on the estimations. When I was a server I knew certain chefs were going to go heavy (or light) on things like butter, cheese, mayo, avocado, dressings and sauces. They prepare things the way they like them. Even if they are supposed to be using portion ladles, that isn't how it actually works. Same with salad dressings. I don't really use much salad dressing, so I would use the small bullet size dressing cups: which is what the calorie count and recipe said. Lots of servers would give their customers the ramekin size of dressing and extra croutons. Why? Because a lot of people are going to ask for more and it's better to give it to them pre-emptively than have to make another trip.

Ten extra croutons can be 50-70 calories. The difference between 2 ounces of dressing and 5 ounces is a couple hundred calories if you are getting Ranch or Bleu Cheese. An extra full ladle of bar be que or gravy sauce can be 100+ calories more than the posted amount.

Same with cheese on dishes. It's added by using shredded cheese. Most recipes are going to call for a half ounce of cheese but most dishes are going to come to your table with 2 ounces. That's nearly a 200 calorie discrepancy.

So don't assume that calorie count is even close. Sure, a restaurant with a diligent chef is going to keep an eye on this stuff for food cost reasons, but don't count on it.

This is a 2 ounce serving (bullet)


This is 5 ounces

janejellyroll wrote: »

cmriverside wrote: »

at thinking "nutrition counts" at restaurants are even in the ballpark.

Maybe at fast food places they may be close, but at any full service restaurant your actual portion could be off by several hundred calories depending on who prepared it and who your server is.

If they are human, they're going to be way off on the estimations. When I was a server I knew certain chefs were going to go heavy (or light) on things like butter, cheese, mayo, avocado, dressings and sauces. They prepare things the way they like them. Even if they are supposed to be using portion ladles, that isn't how it actually works. Same with salad dressings. I don't really use much salad dressing, so I would use the small bullet size dressing cups. Lots of servers would give their customers the ramekin size of dressing and extra croutons. Why? Because a lot of people are going to ask for more and it's better to give it to them pre-emptively than have to make another trip.

Ten extra croutons can be 50-70 calories. The difference between 2 ounces of dressing and 5 ounces is several hundred calories if you are getting Ranch or Bleu Cheese.

Same with cheese on dishes. It's added by using shredded cheese. Most recipes are going to call for a half ounce of cheese but most dishes are going to come to your table with 2 ounces. That's nearly a 200 calorie discrepancy.

So don't assume that calorie count is even close.

This is a 2 ounce serving (bullet)


This is 5 ounces

This is why learning to estimate reasonably accurately for yourself is an important skill for weight management. There have been several times when I've been to a place with calorie counts, looked at what I ordered, and just known that it had to be higher.

Exactly. Right back to personal responsibility and a food scale at home.

It would be nice if we could change the general societal attitude that more==better.

I went to a cafe once, ordered a slice of their cake, and specifically asked for it to be small. They gave me the entire end of the loaf cake.

When I go to places that know me, they tend to give me the biggest portion of whatever I asked for, or to be generous with sides/extras. I know they're trying to be nice, but in actuality that is not nice at all.

The only thing I’d ban is diet advertising.

cmriverside wrote: »

at thinking "nutrition counts" at restaurants are even in the ballpark.

Maybe at fast food places they may be close, but at any full service restaurant your actual portion could be off by several hundred calories depending on who prepared it and who your server is.

If they are human, they're going to be way off on the estimations. When I was a server I knew certain chefs were going to go heavy (or light) on things like butter, cheese, mayo, avocado, dressings and sauces. They prepare things the way they like them. Even if they are supposed to be using portion ladles, that isn't how it actually works. Same with salad dressings. I don't really use much salad dressing, so I would use the small bullet size dressing cups: which is what the calorie count and recipe said. Lots of servers would give their customers the ramekin size of dressing and extra croutons. Why? Because a lot of people are going to ask for more and it's better to give it to them pre-emptively than have to make another trip.

Ten extra croutons can be 50-70 calories. The difference between 2 ounces of dressing and 5 ounces is a couple hundred calories if you are getting Ranch or Bleu Cheese. An extra full ladle of bar be que or gravy sauce can be 100+ calories more than the posted amount.

Same with cheese on dishes. It's added by using shredded cheese. Most recipes are going to call for a half ounce of cheese but most dishes are going to come to your table with 2 ounces. That's nearly a 200 calorie discrepancy.

So don't assume that calorie count is even close. Sure, a restaurant with a diligent chef is going to keep an eye on this stuff for food cost reasons, but don't count on it.

This is a 2 ounce serving (bullet)


This is 5 ounces

Well, you're kind of making my point here for me. I have zero issues with being 2-3, even 400 calories over here and there. But, given the real example I stated near the top of the thread, I'd like to have enough info to make a reasonable guess, such as within 2-300 or 400 calories.

To clarify - I'm only making the argument. I don't eat out enough to even think about, much less worry about it, but what about the millions of folks who do eat out multiple times a week? 500 or more calories 2-3 times a week can be a goal breaker, easily. Asking restaurants to make information available is not equal to ceding personal responsibility in any way. It is catering to a healthier mindset. What's wrong with that?

kimny72 wrote: »

Personally, I don't think any public policies or laws will help much. It's actually not really that difficult right now. The tools are all there, people choose not to use them.

I don't know anyone IRL who pays attention to the calorie counts on menus, they say they're just depressed by the numbers and they don't really understand how it applies to them specifically anyway. Most people who ask me about calorie counting assume everyone should be eating 2000 calories, and if you exercise for an hour you're burning 500 cals because that's what all the video workouts advertise.

If smaller locations determined calorie counts themselves (rather than paying to send them out to a lab) I honestly wouldn't trust them anyway. How would I know that the person who did the math actually knew what they were doing? Or that they were even being honest? Even at chain restaurants, you have to assume the person doing the cooking is following the rules and cooking/serving the way they're supposed to. You still have to use critical thinking and your own experience when the plate is set down in front of you and you start to eat.

People want the most bang for their buck. They want the bigger size because it's a bargain. They want to buy their kid a sugary drink because it will keep them from crying in the store. They will fight you for that parking space so they don't have to walk those 15 extra steps.

I think the only things that would really make a difference are education and perhaps community agendas to get people moving and prioritizing a mindful diet. How exactly that would work, I have no idea. But more about convincing people to take responsibility for their choices and make it a priority, make it just a thing that everyone does. I get told all the time that I'm "being good" by bringing my lunch, not taking a second piece of cake, taking a walk on my break. People know what to do. For whatever reason, they don't do it.

My dad often tells me he doesn't want to think about or analyze his food, he just wants to enjoy it. A coworker always says she doesn't want to waste time at the gym, she wants to enjoy her life. If someone could figure out how to convince people those two things aren't mutually exclusive - that you can think about your diet and enjoy food, that being active and exercising can be enjoyable, that you don't need to be a "health nut" to live a fun & healthy life - they might solve the whole dang thing.

I agree with you. I'm not sure how it would work either in any cost effective way. To your last point about why people don't make better choices I have at least a few observations. I know several people IRL that tried to take up jogging or evening walks and quit because of perceived safety reasons. They were either harassed by dogs or forced to walk in areas where traffic made them feel unsafe (like along the side of a road). Some of us here are hard-headed and determined to overcome these obstacles. Others need an easier pathway. I also believe there is some inertia to community fitness. When folks see others pursuing an active lifestyle they might also be more active. Conversely when we meet people who give up due to safety or inconvenience we are less likely to try activities.

"Being good" - as you put it shouldn't be unusual. Unfortunately we are labeled as "health nuts" by many. Policies and community activities that try to make these behaviors the norm are worthwhile. I think they will be costly. I think there will also be a fairly large time lag between implementation and measurable effect of the policies. It takes time to alter behaviors.

cmriverside wrote: »

Phirrgus wrote: »

cmriverside wrote: »

at thinking "nutrition counts" at restaurants are even in the ballpark.

Maybe at fast food places they may be close, but at any full service restaurant your actual portion could be off by several hundred calories depending on who prepared it and who your server is.

If they are human, they're going to be way off on the estimations. When I was a server I knew certain chefs were going to go heavy (or light) on things like butter, cheese, mayo, avocado, dressings and sauces. They prepare things the way they like them. Even if they are supposed to be using portion ladles, that isn't how it actually works. Same with salad dressings. I don't really use much salad dressing, so I would use the small bullet size dressing cups: which is what the calorie count and recipe said. Lots of servers would give their customers the ramekin size of dressing and extra croutons. Why? Because a lot of people are going to ask for more and it's better to give it to them pre-emptively than have to make another trip.

Ten extra croutons can be 50-70 calories. The difference between 2 ounces of dressing and 5 ounces is a couple hundred calories if you are getting Ranch or Bleu Cheese. An extra full ladle of bar be que or gravy sauce can be 100+ calories more than the posted amount.

Same with cheese on dishes. It's added by using shredded cheese. Most recipes are going to call for a half ounce of cheese but most dishes are going to come to your table with 2 ounces. That's nearly a 200 calorie discrepancy.

So don't assume that calorie count is even close. Sure, a restaurant with a diligent chef is going to keep an eye on this stuff for food cost reasons, but don't count on it.

This is a 2 ounce serving (bullet)


This is 5 ounces

Well, you're kind of making my point here for me. I have zero issues with being 2-3, even 400 calories over here and there. But, given the real example I stated near the top of the thread, I'd like to have enough info to make a reasonable guess, such as within 2-300 or 400 calories.

To clarify - I'm only making the argument. I don't eat out enough to even think about, much less worry about it, but what about the millions of folks who do eat out multiple times a week? 500 or more calories 2-3 times a week can be a goal breaker, easily. Asking restaurants to make information available is not equal to ceding personal responsibility in any way. It is catering to a healthier mindset. What's wrong with that?

For the record I wasn't talking *at* you.

Nothing. And any restaurant in this day which chooses not to give at least an estimate of its calories is well within its rights to do so (or not do so.) That restaurant may alienate a tiny subset of the population by not doing so. So be it.

I just don't see how legislating mandatory calorie estimates is a good thing.

If you insist on only eating at restaurants with calorie guesses on the menu, you are voting with your wallet. It's the way it should be in a free economy. If that restaurant loses your business, I guess that is a choice it has made. I find calorie counts offensive, to be honest - and I've been on this site for 12 years, fully embracing calorie counting as The Way.

Not being forced by law to list calories also absolves the restaurant from "wrong" calorie counts and lawsuits.

I don't want the government any more up into my food than they already are. It's not necessary ::shrug::

This argument has played out in many threads over hundreds of pages and thousands of posts.

Do as you wish.

Ah now @cmriverside - please don't take it personally. It's the debate forum, and I'm not looking for points or to "win"...just chatting. Nothing personal at all.