Switching to veggie for health benefits
Replies
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amusedmonkey wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »I'm not 100% vegetarian, but I eat far less meat than the average omnivore because I don't like it all that much. I eat more meat now because I find it hard to eat enough protein without animal sources. I was morbidly obese and the top 5 contributors to my calories were 100% plant based (and no, not ultra processed "junk"). Calorie dense foods that are easy to overeat exist in every single diet.
If you think "eating more vegetables" will help you control your weight, you can do that on the vast majority of diets without going full on vegetarian.
"How Not to Die" is one of the most overreaching books I have ever read. Cherry picks, extrapolates results that aren't there, makes up stuff, all in order to say "animal based foods are the source of every human ailment".
To OP:
When you relax your eating, do you eat more fat? Do you eat a bigger volume? When you restrict, do you eat too few calories?
If you don't think you are getting enough protein as a Vegan, then you may not be eating right. Are you getting in Quinoa, Lentils, Beans, Pea Protein, etc? You can easily get protein being Vegan. Just an fyi...
I know I can, but it's not the most efficient way for me. Most of my calories would need to be dedicated to protein given that the highest source of plant protein I have is beans. I eat them, but I also like eating other things. Getting protein from animal sources gets it out of the way and allows me to eat whatever I want beyond that.
What exactly are you trying to do, gain muscle? lose weight? what do you weigh and how much protein are you trying to get?
Lose weight while maintaining muscle. My allowance is not that high compared to recommendations. I'm even slightly lower than I need to be for sustainability reasons. I try to eat at least 80 grams of it daily. Even with a good serving of beans, I don't get anywhere near that unless I have multiple servings of plant proteins, and I don't feel like eating beans every day. A typical day for me without focusing on protein ends up at about 40 grams at most.
I make up a 10 serving meal in my instant pot every week, with Quinoa, Lentils, Beans, Brown Rice, Tofu, Veggies, Veg Broth, and spices. It usually has about 40g+ of carbs, around 10g or less of fat, and a little over 30g protein per server. I eat one of those per day. I also have 1 smoothie per day with 2 scoops of plant protein with strawberries and bananas, which has a little over 40g protein in it.
Just those 2 alone, put me close to 80g protein, please other stuff I eat during the day. I find it very easy doing this to get a little over 100g protein per day, I shoot for 120g and I'm 190 lbs.
I have been losing weight and gaining a little bit of muscle and strength.
It's good that you found what works for you. A diet focused on protein is not sustainable for me, let alone one that needs extra effort to achieve. I don't see myself dedicating time, effort, and calories to something that I can get easily elsewhere. As I said, the highest source of plant protein I have access to is kidney beans. That's 1200 calories for 80 grams. I do much better eating whatever I have an appetite for. I tried a protein focused diet in the beginning and it was too stressful and not sustainable at all. I basically eat whatever, while incorporating protein wherever I can without stressing too much about it, then by the end of the day if I need more I'll just open a can of tuna, boil half a chicken breast, or have a protein shake.
I don't focus my diet on protein, I was just letting you know how I get it easily. I have been eating 100% plant based for a little over 2 months now. As far as dedicating time, the meal I make in the instant pot, takes me about 10 - 15 minutes to prep, then I let it go for 30 minutes in the instant pot, i then turn it off and let it sit for another 30 minutes. I add all the ingredients and create a meal in my fitness pal, and then weigh the entire meal which usually comes out to 4000 - 4500 grams total. I then divide that by 10, and put it into contains to make it easier to log and eat. So for about 30 minutes of work every 7 - 10 days, that takes care of 10 serving pretty easy.
The smoothie I make every day takes me about 5 minutes to make, plus another couple of minutes rinsing out the blender.
I used to eat meat and always followed the myth of around 0.8 - 1g+ of protein per pound of body weight. After doing a lot more research about being Vegan and protein, I have dropped that down to about 0.5 - 0.6g per lb of body weight. I am still maintaining strength and muscle doing this, and losing about 0.5 lbs of weight per week.
Effortless for you, not for me. Trying to force myself to eat beans (as much as I love them) when what I really want is cabbage and potatoes is a losing fair. Preparing something to eat every day of the week is a recipe for rebellion in my case because I will almost certainly reach for something else no matter how much I love that meal. By time, I mean time spent obsessing about protein, because that's what I tend to do.
I'm just saying that just because something is doable (even easily doable for some people), doesn't mean it's a good strategy for everyone.
I give up, good luck.
Why do you think she was asking for help? She seems fine with what she does.
(I'd also go nuts eating the same meal every day, and getting 40 g of protein from protein powder is a non-starter for me, although I have been eating frequent smoothies when doing plant-based over Lent. Usually I get protein in the smoothies from silken tofu and nuts and vegetables, which I use in addition to berries and avocado, but I will occasionally use a scoop of pea protein.)
I do find it more difficult to get as much protein as I'd like on 100% plant based, but not particularly so. I don't find having beans or lentils daily, and I'm also fine with tofu and tempeh, which makes it easier. I end up between 70 and 80 grams most days, which isn't a terrible amount for me.8 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »I'm not 100% vegetarian, but I eat far less meat than the average omnivore because I don't like it all that much. I eat more meat now because I find it hard to eat enough protein without animal sources. I was morbidly obese and the top 5 contributors to my calories were 100% plant based (and no, not ultra processed "junk"). Calorie dense foods that are easy to overeat exist in every single diet.
If you think "eating more vegetables" will help you control your weight, you can do that on the vast majority of diets without going full on vegetarian.
"How Not to Die" is one of the most overreaching books I have ever read. Cherry picks, extrapolates results that aren't there, makes up stuff, all in order to say "animal based foods are the source of every human ailment".
To OP:
When you relax your eating, do you eat more fat? Do you eat a bigger volume? When you restrict, do you eat too few calories?
If you don't think you are getting enough protein as a Vegan, then you may not be eating right. Are you getting in Quinoa, Lentils, Beans, Pea Protein, etc? You can easily get protein being Vegan. Just an fyi...
I know I can, but it's not the most efficient way for me. Most of my calories would need to be dedicated to protein given that the highest source of plant protein I have is beans. I eat them, but I also like eating other things. Getting protein from animal sources gets it out of the way and allows me to eat whatever I want beyond that.
What exactly are you trying to do, gain muscle? lose weight? what do you weigh and how much protein are you trying to get?
Lose weight while maintaining muscle. My allowance is not that high compared to recommendations. I'm even slightly lower than I need to be for sustainability reasons. I try to eat at least 80 grams of it daily. Even with a good serving of beans, I don't get anywhere near that unless I have multiple servings of plant proteins, and I don't feel like eating beans every day. A typical day for me without focusing on protein ends up at about 40 grams at most.
I make up a 10 serving meal in my instant pot every week, with Quinoa, Lentils, Beans, Brown Rice, Tofu, Veggies, Veg Broth, and spices. It usually has about 40g+ of carbs, around 10g or less of fat, and a little over 30g protein per server. I eat one of those per day. I also have 1 smoothie per day with 2 scoops of plant protein with strawberries and bananas, which has a little over 40g protein in it.
Just those 2 alone, put me close to 80g protein, please other stuff I eat during the day. I find it very easy doing this to get a little over 100g protein per day, I shoot for 120g and I'm 190 lbs.
I have been losing weight and gaining a little bit of muscle and strength.
It's good that you found what works for you. A diet focused on protein is not sustainable for me, let alone one that needs extra effort to achieve. I don't see myself dedicating time, effort, and calories to something that I can get easily elsewhere. As I said, the highest source of plant protein I have access to is kidney beans. That's 1200 calories for 80 grams. I do much better eating whatever I have an appetite for. I tried a protein focused diet in the beginning and it was too stressful and not sustainable at all. I basically eat whatever, while incorporating protein wherever I can without stressing too much about it, then by the end of the day if I need more I'll just open a can of tuna, boil half a chicken breast, or have a protein shake.
I don't focus my diet on protein, I was just letting you know how I get it easily. I have been eating 100% plant based for a little over 2 months now. As far as dedicating time, the meal I make in the instant pot, takes me about 10 - 15 minutes to prep, then I let it go for 30 minutes in the instant pot, i then turn it off and let it sit for another 30 minutes. I add all the ingredients and create a meal in my fitness pal, and then weigh the entire meal which usually comes out to 4000 - 4500 grams total. I then divide that by 10, and put it into contains to make it easier to log and eat. So for about 30 minutes of work every 7 - 10 days, that takes care of 10 serving pretty easy.
The smoothie I make every day takes me about 5 minutes to make, plus another couple of minutes rinsing out the blender.
I used to eat meat and always followed the myth of around 0.8 - 1g+ of protein per pound of body weight. After doing a lot more research about being Vegan and protein, I have dropped that down to about 0.5 - 0.6g per lb of body weight. I am still maintaining strength and muscle doing this, and losing about 0.5 lbs of weight per week.
Effortless for you, not for me. Trying to force myself to eat beans (as much as I love them) when what I really want is cabbage and potatoes is a losing fair. Preparing something to eat every day of the week is a recipe for rebellion in my case because I will almost certainly reach for something else no matter how much I love that meal. By time, I mean time spent obsessing about protein, because that's what I tend to do.
I'm just saying that just because something is doable (even easily doable for some people), doesn't mean it's a good strategy for everyone.
I give up, good luck.
Thank goodness.10 -
I'd just like to add that I never said it was impossible to be overweight/obese and vegetarian/vegan, so if that applies to you (some of you who replied) then sure, you're probably not lying - lol.
However, vegetarian and vegan food is by calorie/volume ratio lower than the standardised diet of a non-vegetarian person today. This is of course, assuming you know what you're doing and not living off of skittles (those are vegetarian right?) and whatnot. You can gain weight on any dietary preference, what I'm saying is that the average vegetarian/vegan has a lower body weight than the average omnivore. That doesn't mean all vegetarians/vegans are at a healthy weight, and I never claimed such things.
Whether this be due to an overall higher level of health awareness, I do not know. Could be. But even so, one has to start somewhere. So going vegetarian/vegan for health reasons is definitely not a bad thing by any means.1 -
asliceofjackie wrote: »
Whether this be due to an overall higher level of health awareness, I do not know. Could be. But even so, one has to start somewhere. So going vegetarian/vegan for health reasons is definitely not a bad thing by any means.
That is the thing though. It could be a bad thing. That is why you are getting push back.
If a person is overweight and is not suffering from a diet related medical problem the path to better health is creating a calorie deficit and losing weight. Period. Choosing a particular style of eating based on averages or because you heard that people lose 8 pounds doing Keto in one week is not a guarantee to lose weight or getting healthier.
Adherence requires that you do something you are capable of doing. I can't speak for most people but if I absolutely hate or grow to hate a particular weight loss system I am not going to be capable of maintaining it.
The first and easiest choice is to change as little as possible from what you were already naturally doing. If you were naturally doing it, it likely represents some of your personal preferences. You hear people all the time losing weight because they started by replacing soda with diet or just cutting down/out caloric beverages. That may not be the last change they make but if that is comfortable then it is a good first choice.
If a person is already practically a vegetarian then, yes, it might be a good thing to try going the rest of the way. If not, it could be disastrous because, as I mentioned, there is a learning curve for some people. Giving up meat had led to hospitalization.3 -
Giving up meat had led to hospitalization.
Creating calorie deficits have also lead to hospitalisation but I'm pretty sure we're not both against calorie deficits.
You seem to be under the impression (correct me if I'm wrong) that I somehow propose to use vegetarianism instead of calorie deficit, or as some magic solution - which isn't the case at all. Giving up meat and getting hospitalised means you've done something wrong, just like when you do calorie deficits wrong.
Also, science is not to be ignored when talking about losing weight, and averages are a measure of that. Sure, you need to choose a diet that works for you, but you also need a diet (whatever it might be) with a reasonable deficit. Now, if I were to look at two diets and be in a position where I had to chose between them, I would obviously choose the one with the lower average weight because it's the only thing that makes sense for my goal of losing weight. And assuming I know the diet and/or follow it properly, I would be statistically more likely to lose weight.
So again, if a person themselves say they want to go vegetarian for health reasons - I for sure ain't shooting them. I would assume that they known themselves better than I do, and that they've done at least part of proper research on what they're getting in to.1 -
My point was not that it's possible to be overweight as a vegetarian/vegan, because I was. I was talking about why people often lose weight at first when doing 100% plant based, and some reasons why it might make a difference (that IME does not apply to vegetarians so much).
What I was responding to is specifically this claim:asliceofjackie wrote: »IHowever, vegetarian and vegan food is by calorie/volume ratio lower than the standardised diet of a non-vegetarian person today.
You can't start comparing someone not paying attention to what they eat and someone who is a vegan or vegetarian and health conscious. The true comparison should be the required differences between the diets. I've done all three ways of eating while health and diet-conscious, and it's just not true that vegetarian and vegan food is by calorie/volume ratio lower than non vegetarian food.
First, I think EVERYONE should eat a good amount of non starchy veg, so that's not a difference. The difference ends up being the sources of protein in the diet. Meat is not especially (or inherently) high cal vs. beans and rice or various other vegan or vegetarian ways of getting protein (vegetarian including eggs and dairy). It is not that hard to overeat on vegan foods if you know how to make them in a tasty way, and for some it might be easy to start erring toward non filling foods (especially if you have in your mind that vegan=healthy). I'm not even talking about Oreos or vegan ice cream here, but refined grains. It's also easy to add cals with oils and to go overboard on nuts.
I think the real difference is not that meat is high cal (it's really not -- and I think it's not uncommon for ethical vegetarians to use cheese more as a substitute, which can be much higher cal), it's that on average more people who reduce meat or avoid it entirely are health conscious, and that's extra true for vegans, in addition to some of the popularizers for 100% plant based (even that based on ethics, which the word "vegan" implies) being very specific diets -- the low fat 80-10-10 stuff, the anti oil and even nuts stuff, the whole foods based, the raw nonsense, the starch people -- having rules that limit food choice beyond merely avoiding animal-based foods.
And also it forces you to be thoughtful and to plan ahead about eating, or else to rely on homemade foods. But the homemade foods could be quite high cal if you wanted, just as an omnivore's choices can be quite low cal.
I get the feeling that you are considering "vegan foods" to be vegetables, which are hardly uniquely eaten by vegans and not the base of all vegan diets, and omnivore foods as, I dunno, Big Macs, which again are hardly the only form in which meat can be eaten. For me, it's way easier to hit a low cal limit (like 1200-1500) and get in adequate nutrients doing omnivore. But since I have no need to eat that low, it's just a decision about how I want to eat. (It's obviously possible to do a 1200-1500 diet on vegetarian or plant-based too, but for me it's harder.)4 -
asliceofjackie wrote: »So going vegetarian/vegan for health reasons is definitely not a bad thing by any means.
If you think just being vegetarian or vegan will improve your health, it could be. Which is not to say that I'm against doing either. But statistical averages don't tell you anything.
Makes more sense -- whether you eat meat or not -- to consider what's unhealthy about your overall diet and improve it.
For example, if someone is a take out junky who eats tons of sweets, going from options with meat to those without isn't going to do much of anything, including for weight loss. If, instead, someone looks at their diet and says hmm, I don't eat nearly enough veg, I overuse oil, I eat fried foods somewhat often, and dessert seems to take up too many of my calories and, oh yes, I'm drinking a lot of cals in my Starbucks, there are some obvious things to do that will improve health AND calories and lead to weight loss, that don't really have much to do with meat consumption. If your meat consumption is mostly lower cal, higher protein meats, then cutting meat vs. adding other things and cutting down on some others is unlikely to lead to weight loss. If, instead, the main source of meat are higher fat, lower protein foods that also come with carbs, then cutting back on those dishes (without or without replacing the meat portions) will be useful.
I didn't think OP was talking about weight loss, but about feeling better, and that's individual. She asked if others felt better cutting out meat, and personally, no, I don't, although I think there are other reasons one might decide to do so. OP has specific digestive issues, so she might feel better cutting it out (although more often I think triggers are dairy or certain kinds of plant foods).3 -
If one's goal is to be vegan or vegetarian, that's a fine thing.
If one's goal is to lose weight or achieve a healthy diet, becoming vegan or vegetarian is a tangent, an additional and fairly irrelevant complication.
A vegan or vegetarian diet isn't necessarily and inherently healhier than an omnivorous diet (IMO, sound nutrition is ever so slightly more difficult, because one has restricted one's food choices).
A vegan or vegetarian diet isn't necessarily and inherently lower in calories than an omnivorous diet. One still has to pay attention to calories. Healthy vegan/vegetarian foods include many delicious, filling lower calorie foods, but all of those foods are available to omnivores.
If someone wants to become vegan or vegetarian for ethical or taste-preference reasons, I encourage them to do so.
If someone wants to lose weight, I encourage them to reduce net calorie intake by eating less or doing more. If someone wants to eat more healthfully, I encourage them to learn about nutrition and remodel their eating accordingly. For those goals, vegan or vegetarian diets are an optional complication . . . a minor complication, but 100% optional.
ETA: If someone has specific health issues possibly related to eating, like OP, the most direct route to improvement is to take diagnostic steps (such as a doctor visit, a Registered Dietician referral, an elimination diet), and act on the results. Unless animal products prove to be among the trigger foods - which is uncommon - vegan or vegetarian eating is an irrelevant complication for that, too, and likely a delay in resolving the problem.5 -
asliceofjackie wrote: »
Whether this be due to an overall higher level of health awareness, I do not know. Could be. But even so, one has to start somewhere. So going vegetarian/vegan for health reasons is definitely not a bad thing by any means.
That is the thing though. It could be a bad thing. That is why you are getting push back.
If a person is overweight and is not suffering from a diet related medical problem the path to better health is creating a calorie deficit and losing weight. Period. Choosing a particular style of eating based on averages or because you heard that people lose 8 pounds doing Keto in one week is not a guarantee to lose weight or getting healthier.
Adherence requires that you do something you are capable of doing. I can't speak for most people but if I absolutely hate or grow to hate a particular weight loss system I am not going to be capable of maintaining it.
The first and easiest choice is to change as little as possible from what you were already naturally doing. If you were naturally doing it, it likely represents some of your personal preferences. You hear people all the time losing weight because they started by replacing soda with diet or just cutting down/out caloric beverages. That may not be the last change they make but if that is comfortable then it is a good first choice.
If a person is already practically a vegetarian then, yes, it might be a good thing to try going the rest of the way. If not, it could be disastrous because, as I mentioned, there is a learning curve for some people. Giving up meat had led to hospitalization.
Yes, I had been unknowingly been managing my anemia through my omnivorous diet alone, but when I moved in to a vegetarian yoga community I didn't get enough iron, and didn't know this until I went to the Urgent Care clinic after having a very bad reaction to bee stings, and for some reason they happened to test my iron levels. The doctor said one point lower and he would have administered iron intravenously. Or maybe it was after I went to the Urgent Care clinic after being bitten by a brown recluse spider. That ashram was a very dangerous place, lol.
Sure, it's possible to manage anemia while being vegetarian/vegan, but like you said, there can be a learning curve.4 -
I get the feeling that you are considering "vegan foods" to be vegetables, which are hardly uniquely eaten by vegans and not the base of all vegan diets, and omnivore foods as, I dunno, Big Macs, which again are hardly the only form in which meat can be eaten.
So, you mentioned the difference being in protein sources. Just for numbers' sake.
Calories per 100 grams
Meat
Chicken breast: 116
Ground beef: 179
Ground pork: 250
Common vegetarian options
Tofu: 94
Soy mince: 150*
Oumph (That might be just a Swedish thing): 120*
Quorn: 138
Beans: 110*
Other potential candidates
Eggs: 75
Cheese: 286**
* Not found on USDA so I took numbers from the packaging.
** Cheese varies greatly, but I took the first hit on USDA website.
Now here's my analysis.
Meat has quite a lot of calories, considering their portion sizes as well. Vegetarian "meat substitutes" are generally slightly lower in calories. Not by much, but a little bit. Then there's things like cheese which is higher in calories - but most people are also aware that you can't stuff your face with cheese all the time - regardless of the diet of choice. Now if I were to take a normal plate of omnivore food and replace it with a vegetarian one, I wouldn't just remove the meat and add an equally big slab of cheese.
So, maybe this is just a difference in where we're from. But where I'm from (in Sweden), going vegetarian or at least cutting down on eating meat is an official recommendation from registered dieticians when it comes to losing weight, and it has proven effective. Maybe that's just because of different cultures and different ways of handling food, or different choices of food. But no one here (in Sweden) would assume that cheese is a substitute for meat. The ones I listed above are the most common substitutes for meat. Vegetarians over here don't eat cheese any more often than omnivores.
As for "you can't compare someone who's not paying attention to what they eat" - I never did. I've worked under the assumption that since OP is on MFP, they know at least a little something about what they're doing etc. Most people do have some sort of common sense, because most people (in most countries, not true for all) aren't obese.0 -
asliceofjackie wrote: »I'd just like to add that I never said it was impossible to be overweight/obese and vegetarian/vegan, so if that applies to you (some of you who replied) then sure, you're probably not lying - lol.
However, vegetarian and vegan food is by calorie/volume ratio lower than the standardised diet of a non-vegetarian person today. This is of course, assuming you know what you're doing and not living off of skittles (those are vegetarian right?) and whatnot. You can gain weight on any dietary preference, what I'm saying is that the average vegetarian/vegan has a lower body weight than the average omnivore. That doesn't mean all vegetarians/vegans are at a healthy weight, and I never claimed such things.
Whether this be due to an overall higher level of health awareness, I do not know. Could be. But even so, one has to start somewhere. So going vegetarian/vegan for health reasons is definitely not a bad thing by any means.
You stated that being vegetarian or vegan will "almost naturally create a calorie deficit." This isn't an accurate generalization. There are many, many high calorie foods that are vegetarian or vegan, and even if someone is eating mostly vegetables and meatless protein, it's still quite possible to wind up in a calorie surplus due to portion sizes. I've even seen some *very* calorie dense tempeh. For example, this one was sold locally where I used to live: https://www.smilingharatempeh.com/our-products/#soyfree (Yes, it's good; no, I didn't think it was worth 500-600 calories for a 4 ounce serving!)
The bottom line is that if you want to lose weight, there is no way of eating that will reliably create a calorie deficit without intentionally trying to create a deficit. If you are not trying to create a deficit, then you can overeat on a veg diet just as you can on a diet with animal products.
Again, go veg if your own preferences or morals lead you to do that. But don't assume that being veg will fix health problems or automatically cause weight loss.1 -
asliceofjackie wrote: »I get the feeling that you are considering "vegan foods" to be vegetables, which are hardly uniquely eaten by vegans and not the base of all vegan diets, and omnivore foods as, I dunno, Big Macs, which again are hardly the only form in which meat can be eaten.
So, you mentioned the difference being in protein sources. Just for numbers' sake.
Calories per 100 grams
Meat
Chicken breast: 116
Ground beef: 179
Ground pork: 250
Common vegetarian options
Tofu: 94
Soy mince: 150*
Oumph (That might be just a Swedish thing): 120*
Quorn: 138
Beans: 110*
Other potential candidates
Eggs: 75
Cheese: 286**
* Not found on USDA so I took numbers from the packaging.
** Cheese varies greatly, but I took the first hit on USDA website.
Now here's my analysis.
Meat has quite a lot of calories, considering their portion sizes as well. Vegetarian "meat substitutes" are generally slightly lower in calories. Not by much, but a little bit. Then there's things like cheese which is higher in calories - but most people are also aware that you can't stuff your face with cheese all the time - regardless of the diet of choice. Now if I were to take a normal plate of omnivore food and replace it with a vegetarian one, I wouldn't just remove the meat and add an equally big slab of cheese.
So, maybe this is just a difference in where we're from. But where I'm from (in Sweden), going vegetarian or at least cutting down on eating meat is an official recommendation from registered dieticians when it comes to losing weight, and it has proven effective. Maybe that's just because of different cultures and different ways of handling food, or different choices of food. But no one here (in Sweden) would assume that cheese is a substitute for meat. The ones I listed above are the most common substitutes for meat. Vegetarians over here don't eat cheese any more often than omnivores.
As for "you can't compare someone who's not paying attention to what they eat" - I never did. I've worked under the assumption that since OP is on MFP, they know at least a little something about what they're doing etc. Most people do have some sort of common sense, because most people (in most countries, not true for all) aren't obese.
The crucial point is not the number of calories per gram of the food, but per gram of protein in the food.6 -
Search for "whole food plant based" and you'll find diets that are extremely healthy and hard to overeat on, since highly processed foods are eliminated and replaced with healthy veggies and starches. One quick example: Oreos qualify as vegan, since they contain no meat, but they won't make the cut on a whole food plant based diet. I switched to WFPB and lost weight, even though I didn't need to, since WFPB allows a high volume of food and nutrients, but is low in calories. Use Dr Greger's Daily Dozen app to guide food choices and you'll become healthy and in a proper weight range without a lot of effort. And the beans and roughage will take care of any lazy bowel issues! I have ulcerative colitis, which has gone into remission, and my gastroenterologist was able to take me off the medication I have taken daily for 30 years. He says that's almost unheard of. My GP says I went from horrible (my word) labs on my old standard American diet to the best labs he has ever seen in his career at my checkup in January. I've currently reintroduced lean meats into my diet while I try to add some muscle mass, and may continue to eat some meat as I go forward, but I'm convinced that a whole food plant based diet is the healthiest option out there. I guess I'm now "Flexitarian" - meaning I eat mostly plant based but with some lean meats. YouTube has tons of good information on whole food plant based (and of course, some not so good). Give it a try for a few weeks and make your own judgement (I recommend that you consult your doctor, as I did when I embarked on WFPB).2
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You said you restrict calories. This can do it. How many calories are you eating? How many meals a day are you eating?0
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Funny how I simply posted my experience and was woo'd. Didnt we just explain the nature of woo in another thread?!1
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asliceofjackie wrote: »I'd just like to add that I never said it was impossible to be overweight/obese and vegetarian/vegan, so if that applies to you (some of you who replied) then sure, you're probably not lying - lol.
However, vegetarian and vegan food is by calorie/volume ratio lower than the standardised diet of a non-vegetarian person today. This is of course, assuming you know what you're doing and not living off of skittles (those are vegetarian right?) and whatnot. You can gain weight on any dietary preference, what I'm saying is that the average vegetarian/vegan has a lower body weight than the average omnivore. That doesn't mean all vegetarians/vegans are at a healthy weight, and I never claimed such things.
Whether this be due to an overall higher level of health awareness, I do not know. Could be. But even so, one has to start somewhere. So going vegetarian/vegan for health reasons is definitely not a bad thing by any means.
What I've personally noticed with vegetarian friends is those who make their own meals and snacks tend to stay at a lower weight than those who eat a lot of pre-packaged ready to go items/meals/snacks. To me that would definitely suggest a difference in awareness. Most of the vegans I know are obese, but that did not used to be the norm.
*I know it's possible to eat anything and not be overweight. It's all about staying within calories. My observation is of people who are believing they have a superior diet while eating twice or more the calories they need.
As far as the main thread topic - A healthy diet isn't going to be defined the same for everyone. I have to have some red meat for iron levels. It is the only thing that works. Nothing plant based is very effective for me with iron. It would be quite unhealthy for me to be vegetarian/vegan. I love meat AND lots of plant based foods. A nice balance.
As far as lazy digestion issues, I would think increasing plant foods could help. And your comments about restricting foods makes me curious if you might restrict fat too much also. You need some fats to be healthy.2 -
johnwhitent wrote: »Search for "whole food plant based" and you'll find diets that are extremely healthy and hard to overeat on, since highly processed foods are eliminated and replaced with healthy veggies and starches. One quick example: Oreos qualify as vegan, since they contain no meat, but they won't make the cut on a whole food plant based diet. I switched to WFPB and lost weight, even though I didn't need to, since WFPB allows a high volume of food and nutrients, but is low in calories. Use Dr Greger's Daily Dozen app to guide food choices and you'll become healthy and in a proper weight range without a lot of effort. And the beans and roughage will take care of any lazy bowel issues! I have ulcerative colitis, which has gone into remission, and my gastroenterologist was able to take me off the medication I have taken daily for 30 years. He says that's almost unheard of. My GP says I went from horrible (my word) labs on my old standard American diet to the best labs he has ever seen in his career at my checkup in January. I've currently reintroduced lean meats into my diet while I try to add some muscle mass, and may continue to eat some meat as I go forward, but I'm convinced that a whole food plant based diet is the healthiest option out there. I guess I'm now "Flexitarian" - meaning I eat mostly plant based but with some lean meats. YouTube has tons of good information on whole food plant based (and of course, some not so good). Give it a try for a few weeks and make your own judgement (I recommend that you consult your doctor, as I did when I embarked on WFPB).
You know what also qualifies as vegan? Pecans (which I sadly overate last week - 400 calories for what looked like a handful.)2 -
njitaliana wrote: »You said you restrict calories. This can do it. How many calories are you eating? How many meals a day are you eating?
Well I use my Fitbit as a rough guidance to my daily calorie burn. I burn on average about 2000 calories per day, I try and eat about 1400-1500. I do wonder if the deficit is too large.
My weight is 120lb
Height is 5ft 4
I am not overweight, so maybe the calorie deficit is too great ???
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asliceofjackie wrote: »I get the feeling that you are considering "vegan foods" to be vegetables, which are hardly uniquely eaten by vegans and not the base of all vegan diets, and omnivore foods as, I dunno, Big Macs, which again are hardly the only form in which meat can be eaten.
So, you mentioned the difference being in protein sources. Just for numbers' sake.
Calories per 100 grams
Meat
Chicken breast: 116
Ground beef: 179
Ground pork: 250
Common vegetarian options
Tofu: 94
Soy mince: 150*
Oumph (That might be just a Swedish thing): 120*
Quorn: 138
Beans: 110*
Other potential candidates
Eggs: 75
Cheese: 286**
* Not found on USDA so I took numbers from the packaging.
** Cheese varies greatly, but I took the first hit on USDA website.
Okay, now let's add in protein:
Calories per 40 g protein:
Meat
Chicken breast (skinless, boneless): 214 cal
Ground beef (95% lean): 256 cal
Pork tenderloin (I don't know why you'd include so many ground options): 208 cal
Common vegetarian options (yours seems more based on fake meat than my list would be, and I nixed the one I've never heard of)
Tofu (I went with extra firm): 335 cal
Soy mince: 402 cal
Quorn: 760 cal (based on USDA ones branded, I don't eat this, so maybe there are better options)
Beans: 619 cal (I did black beans)
Other potential candidates
Eggs: 458
Cheese (went with swiss): 586
8 -
Spitspot81 wrote: »njitaliana wrote: »You said you restrict calories. This can do it. How many calories are you eating? How many meals a day are you eating?
Well I use my Fitbit as a rough guidance to my daily calorie burn. I burn on average about 2000 calories per day, I try and eat about 1400-1500. I do wonder if the deficit is too large.
My weight is 120lb
Height is 5ft 4
I am not overweight, so maybe the calorie deficit is too great ???
Are you trying to lose weight? You're well within your optimal BMI range, so if you're restricting calories because you feel that you have too much body fat, I would recommend recomp instead of weight loss. Recomp involves eating at your TDEE and following a structured strength training program to build muscle and cut body fat.1 -
asliceofjackie wrote: »I get the feeling that you are considering "vegan foods" to be vegetables, which are hardly uniquely eaten by vegans and not the base of all vegan diets, and omnivore foods as, I dunno, Big Macs, which again are hardly the only form in which meat can be eaten.
So, you mentioned the difference being in protein sources. Just for numbers' sake.
Calories per 100 grams
Meat
Chicken breast: 116
Ground beef: 179
Ground pork: 250
Common vegetarian options
Tofu: 94
Soy mince: 150*
Oumph (That might be just a Swedish thing): 120*
Quorn: 138
Beans: 110*
Other potential candidates
Eggs: 75
Cheese: 286**
* Not found on USDA so I took numbers from the packaging.
** Cheese varies greatly, but I took the first hit on USDA website.
Okay, now let's add in protein:
Calories per 40 g protein:
Meat
Chicken breast (skinless, boneless): 214 cal
Ground beef (95% lean): 256 cal
Pork tenderloin (I don't know why you'd include so many ground options): 208 cal
Common vegetarian options (yours seems more based on fake meat than my list would be, and I nixed the one I've never heard of)
Tofu (I went with extra firm): 335 cal
Soy mince: 402 cal
Quorn: 760 cal (based on USDA ones branded, I don't eat this, so maybe there are better options)
Beans: 619 cal (I did black beans)
Other potential candidates
Eggs: 458
Cheese (went with swiss): 586
I was just about to do this responding to the per 100 g of food post on the first second page of the thread, and thought, "you know, I should check the second third page of the thread in case someone has already done it." Thanks for saving me some time, @lemurcat2 .4 -
Are you trying to lose weight? You're well within your optimal BMI range, so if you're restricting calories because you feel that you have too much body fat, I would recommend recomp instead of weight loss. Recomp involves eating at your TDEE and following a structured strength training program to build muscle and cut body fat. [/quote]
This is a photo from 2 days ago. I just think maybe I should lose a bit more weight before building more muscle, but after reading some of the replies from this post I wonder if I should up my calories, particularly fat intake?
0 -
asliceofjackie wrote: »Meat has quite a lot of calories, considering their portion sizes as well. Vegetarian "meat substitutes" are generally slightly lower in calories. Not by much, but a little bit.
As you can see, it's the opposite.Then there's things like cheese which is higher in calories - but most people are also aware that you can't stuff your face with cheese all the time - regardless of the diet of choice. Now if I were to take a normal plate of omnivore food and replace it with a vegetarian one, I wouldn't just remove the meat and add an equally big slab of cheese.
No, but if you cut cals by switching to lower fat meat options, using less fat in cooking other foods, and reducing the starchy side, and then cutting down on between meat snacks and desserts -- which are usually veg -- it's probably more efficient than simply replacing the steak and potatoes and broccoli cooked with fat with a big bowl of pasta and beans with some veg and cheese, veg cooked in olive oil. And I'm not knocking the latter, I eat stuff like that. I'm knocking the idea that merely cutting out meat = lower cals.So, maybe this is just a difference in where we're from. But where I'm from (in Sweden), going vegetarian or at least cutting down on eating meat is an official recommendation from registered dieticians when it comes to losing weight, and it has proven effective.
How have they shown it's effectiveness?
In the US, cutting down on meat is a recommendation for HEALTH, not weight loss, and I think it can be a good idea if you cut back on higher fat cuts of meat and, say, eat more beans and veg, but the adjustment to the diet can't merely be "cut back on meat."
I have seen no convincing evidence that no meat is better than some meat within the context of an overall healthy diet. And as I mentioned, for me, meat is actually helpful in weight loss/maintenance. (I kind of wish that weren't so, because I'm conflicted about meat eating to some degree, thus the back and forth between veg and not and the reason I always spend good bits of the year doing veg for one reason or another.)Vegetarians over here don't eat cheese any more often than omnivores.
I'm not talking about eating a big chunk of cheese, but using added cheese for flavor and to add some protein.
You also seem a lot more interested in meat subs than I am, as I just don't eat them. I will eat tofu and tempeh, but those are long traditional foods used in many cuisines. (I am not saying everyone should be like me or that this is anything more than personal preference.) I would have listed a bunch of different kinds of beans, tofu, chickpeas, peas, and the like as protein sources, and noted that they are often eaten along with other starchy carbs. The cals can add up easily, which is not to say that's a bad or unhealthy way of eating -- it's not. But it's not inherently low cal vs. meat eating.As for "you can't compare someone who's not paying attention to what they eat" - I never did. I've worked under the assumption that since OP is on MFP, they know at least a little something about what they're doing etc. Most people do have some sort of common sense, because most people (in most countries, not true for all) aren't obese.
You mentioned nutrition-conscious vegetarians and then compared them with the standard non veg diet, which is not nutrition-conscious.2 -
How have they shown it's effectiveness?
Because people lose weight I would presume.
Let's take a normal Swedish meal for example (I really do believe culture plays a part here)
150 grams of potato gratin: 213kcal
150 grams of minced meat (for example meatballs): 273kcal
Side salad (lettuce, cucumber, tomato, no dressing): ~50kcal (if even that)
Total: 536 kcal
Making it vegetarian
150 grams of potato gratin: 213kcal
Tzay skewers (soy meat substitute): 160kcal
Side salad (lettuce, cucumber, tomato, no dressing): ~50kcal (if even that)
Total: 423 kcal
This is how a majority of people (again, at least in Sweden) would go about when switching to a vegetarian diet, making substitutions for the meat with non-meat versions. Which would be why people lose weight and it's being recommended by dieticians.0 -
Add more fiber and water...for me, having a large spinach salad daily works great. You can add more fiber in different ways0
-
asliceofjackie wrote: »How have they shown it's effectiveness?
Because people lose weight I would presume.
Let's take a normal Swedish meal for example (I really do believe culture plays a part here)
150 grams of potato gratin: 213kcal
150 grams of minced meat (for example meatballs): 273kcal
Side salad (lettuce, cucumber, tomato, no dressing): ~50kcal (if even that)
Total: 536 kcal
Making it vegetarian
150 grams of potato gratin: 213kcal
Tzay skewers (soy meat substitute): 160kcal
Side salad (lettuce, cucumber, tomato, no dressing): ~50kcal (if even that)
Total: 423 kcal
This is how a majority of people (again, at least in Sweden) would go about when switching to a vegetarian diet, making substitutions for the meat with non-meat versions. Which would be why people lose weight and it's being recommended by dieticians.
So lowball the protein content? I know I'm just expressing a crazy USAian thought here, but no, thank you.
I'm shooting for 100g protein daily, so 30g+ per meal. Your menu won't get me there.
Repeating myself for clarity: I'm vegetarian. And adding: Have been for 45 years.
You previously wrote:I've worked under the assumption that since OP is on MFP, they know at least a little something about what they're doing etc.
Not implying any criticism of OP at all, but I wouldn't assume a non-vegetarian is knowledgeable about vegetarian nutrition. Surprisingly, sometimes even vegetarians aren't.4 -
So lowball the protein content? I know I'm just expressing a crazy USAian thought here, but no, thank you.
According to our recommendations you will get enough protein if you eat a balanced diet and unless you're a body builder you will probably be just fine.
But really, it all comes down to a difference of opinion and I can appreciate what you're saying without agreeing with it.1 -
Spitspot81 wrote: »
This is a photo from 2 days ago. I just think maybe I should lose a bit more weight before building more muscle, but after reading some of the replies from this post I wonder if I should up my calories, particularly fat intake?
You don't sound like you have a medical reason to lose more weight, and increasing your calories may benefit you. I'd therefore recommend eating at maintenance, paying particular attention to your fat and fiber intake, and starting a strength training program.
Fiber is a weird thing because constipation can be caused by too little fiber, but also by quickly increasing fiber. I would check with your doctor about what is an appropriate fiber intake for your medical needs, and then slowly increase to that amount if it turns out that you aren't getting enough.0 -
asliceofjackie wrote: »So lowball the protein content? I know I'm just expressing a crazy USAian thought here, but no, thank you.
According to our recommendations you will get enough protein if you eat a balanced diet and unless you're a body builder you will probably be just fine.
But really, it all comes down to a difference of opinion and I can appreciate what you're saying without agreeing with it.
I think the part you are not really grasping is the point I tried to make earlier today. It is not a switch that just anyone can flip easily. If it is not easy it might challenge adherence and impede weight loss.
It would probably be in my wheelhouse to transition to vegetarianism. I know my way around plant based proteins, I have meatless days on a regular basis because I like the variety, and I am a good cook. I am not going to do it though because it is too much of a change for me. As much as I love fish and I get most of amount of my non pb protein there I am not even willing to risk going full pescatarian. The reason is my health. I still have a lot of weight to lose and that is my number 1 priority. I am sticking with what is easiest for me and what is easiest is having most of the menu available to me.
I am already in better health and it will continue to improve on the road I am on. I don't need to throw in any extra rules or requirements.1 -
asliceofjackie wrote: »
Then please cite a source.0
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