Keto unhealthy???
Replies
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brittanystebbins95 wrote: »brittanystebbins95 wrote: »I just finished a biochemistry class for my degree and the professor told us about a conference he had been to on biochem in nutrition. 10/10 biochemists do NOT recommend Keto or long term intermittent fasting. Both have detrimental affects on muscle wastage tolerance and risk of ketoacidosis.
There isn't evidence to support either of those statements.
Just throwing this out there as food for thought.
There "wasn't evidence" of grain-free diets being harmful for dogs, either. And it took loads of dogs to develop a severe and deadly heart condition, and a long time for it to be linked to grain free diets, before the FDA released any information or warnings on it.
Not saying there IS credible evidence, but I know that often, the research is way behind and we never find out just how BAD something is for us until its too late.
I'd rather not take any risks like that and just stick to a normal calorie deficit by monitoring portions and making sure my proteins, fats, and carbs are balanced. Not one practically eliminated or drastically reduced.
The only problem with this is that the Keto diet has been around and in use since the early 1900's (or before). I think any major health concerns would have shown up by now.
Yes, but modern medicine has not.
We used to believe that women had demons inside them that had to be exorcised by the use of "medical instruments" that we now buy to do the dirty with ourselves. The word "hysteria" literally comes from that. The latin root "hyster" is used to describe the uterus, hence why a hysterectomy is a removal of the uterus.
Not saying that keto is stupid at all.
I'm just saying that we weren't always all that educated and we're learning and discovering more every day.
No matter how much we science the crap out of something, there will still be questions regarding diets. Just look at aspartame. Its been studied 50 years and still has recent research regarding its safety.
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brittanystebbins95 wrote: »I just finished a biochemistry class for my degree and the professor told us about a conference he had been to on biochem in nutrition. 10/10 biochemists do NOT recommend Keto or long term intermittent fasting. Both have detrimental affects on muscle wastage tolerance and risk of ketoacidosis.
There isn't evidence to support either of those statements.
Just throwing this out there as food for thought.
There "wasn't evidence" of grain-free diets being harmful for dogs, either. And it took loads of dogs to develop a severe and deadly heart condition, and a long time for it to be linked to grain free diets, before the FDA released any information or warnings on it.
Not saying there IS credible evidence, but I know that often, the research is way behind and we never find out just how BAD something is for us until its too late.
I'd rather not take any risks like that and just stick to a normal calorie deficit by monitoring portions and making sure my proteins, fats, and carbs are balanced. Not one practically eliminated or drastically reduced.
Interesting. In case anyone else was wondering: https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/news-events/fda-investigation-potential-link-between-certain-diets-and-canine-dilated-cardiomyopathy
My mother and brother feed their dog a grain-free food that does have peas in the first 6 ingredients.1 -
brittanystebbins95 wrote: »I just finished a biochemistry class for my degree and the professor told us about a conference he had been to on biochem in nutrition. 10/10 biochemists do NOT recommend Keto or long term intermittent fasting. Both have detrimental affects on muscle wastage tolerance and risk of ketoacidosis.
There isn't evidence to support either of those statements.
Just throwing this out there as food for thought.
There "wasn't evidence" of grain-free diets being harmful for dogs, either. And it took loads of dogs to develop a severe and deadly heart condition, and a long time for it to be linked to grain free diets, before the FDA released any information or warnings on it.
Not saying there IS credible evidence, but I know that often, the research is way behind and we never find out just how BAD something is for us until its too late.
I'd rather not take any risks like that and just stick to a normal calorie deficit by monitoring portions and making sure my proteins, fats, and carbs are balanced. Not one practically eliminated or drastically reduced.
Then how should we decide what to be afraid of? Just be afraid of everthing?
Don't get me wrong, I'm with you on the "natural selection tested human diets" idea . . . but those are pretty diverse.2 -
kshama2001 wrote: »brittanystebbins95 wrote: »I just finished a biochemistry class for my degree and the professor told us about a conference he had been to on biochem in nutrition. 10/10 biochemists do NOT recommend Keto or long term intermittent fasting. Both have detrimental affects on muscle wastage tolerance and risk of ketoacidosis.
There isn't evidence to support either of those statements.
Just throwing this out there as food for thought.
There "wasn't evidence" of grain-free diets being harmful for dogs, either. And it took loads of dogs to develop a severe and deadly heart condition, and a long time for it to be linked to grain free diets, before the FDA released any information or warnings on it.
Not saying there IS credible evidence, but I know that often, the research is way behind and we never find out just how BAD something is for us until its too late.
I'd rather not take any risks like that and just stick to a normal calorie deficit by monitoring portions and making sure my proteins, fats, and carbs are balanced. Not one practically eliminated or drastically reduced.
Interesting. In case anyone else was wondering: https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/news-events/fda-investigation-potential-link-between-certain-diets-and-canine-dilated-cardiomyopathy
My mother and brother feed their dog a grain-free food that does have peas in the first 6 ingredients.
Thank you for the link, I was wondering. My dog is allergic (blood tests by the vet, not just our neurosis) to wheat, rice, maize, cows milk, beef, white fish, dust mites plus many tree and grass pollens so that was an interesting read!0 -
Keto is crap , it's pretty simple. We are designed to run on carbs, that is the body's #1 choice of fuel. That is why we store glycogen in our muscles after we eat carbs. The body burns things in this order. Carbs, Fats, and then protein. (burning muscle as the protein.) The enzyme in our mouth called amylase breaks down starches. This is like tubers (potatoes), grains, and beans, and rice ect... This is the fuel we are meant to thrive on
All this nonsense with avoiding carbs is an unhealthy fad. 14 -
It is just silly to claim that keto has been around along time, therefore it isn't a fad. Keto was designed as a therapeutic diet. You don't take medicine for a disease you don't have. The keto diet in its current form is indeed a fad.11
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cuteangelkitten wrote: »Keto is crap , it's pretty simple. We are designed to run on carbs, that is the body's #1 choice of fuel. That is why we store glycogen in our muscles after we eat carbs. The body burns things in this order. Carbs, Fats, and then protein. (burning muscle as the protein.) The enzyme in our mouth called amylase breaks down starches. This is like tubers (potatoes), grains, and beans, and rice ect... This is the fuel we are meant to thrive on All this nonsense with avoiding carbs is an unhealthy fad.
You do realize the your body on a mixture of fat and carbs right? Its just not constantly running on carbs (except red blood cells and your central nervous system). If you measured fat oxidation and carb oxidation, it would vary throughout the day. Fats when you're fasted or in between meals which don't involve carbs, and carbs post carb meals and exercise.
Btw, our bodies are designed for resilliance. It will run completely fine on carbs, fats or ketones. If it didn't, we would have died a long time ago.10 -
I was surprised to get flamed above.
For my part, I just wanted to be sure that the Keto fans had an opportunity to see that there are two sides to this story. Literally hundreds of commentators who state their opinions on the possibility of harm. Google it.
No one will really know until there are long term peer reviewed clinical studies which will come eventually.
For me, I don't care if Keto is harmful or not because I am never going for it or any other fad diet. They are the purview of persons who want to suffer. I like food so I am not eliminating anything. Just counting, balancing and making informed choices to meet daily goals. True, I eat less red meat and less carbs. But, less carbs still means a lot of carbs. And, 320 days in I have lost 42 of 240 pounds now at 198 with only two weeks showing a 1 pound weight gain. Water no doubt.8 -
Keto does not put you at risk for diabetes. Diabetes comes from insulin resistance which isn't caused by ketones. It is caused by glucose.10
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Keto and Atkins are NOT basically the same thing. In Atkins, you are still running off of glucose. On keto, you are running off ketones.7
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I have tried keto, and did not see the benefit. The only change was an increase in cholesterol. As I research healthy eating, I always circle back around to some basic principles:
Eat Whole Foods whenever possible
Carbs are good, as long as they are complex and as close to their original state as possible
Protein is good, as long as it is consumed moderately, and balanced between animal- and plant-based
Fat is good, as long as it is unsaturated (plant-based)
Avoid anything that comes with a laundry-list if ingredients, especially one that is longer than 5 items
Eat until you are not hungry, not until you are full.
Each of us need to to do what is best, individually. For me, I had to get out of the rabbit hole of fad plans.17 -
I have tried keto, and did not see the benefit. The only change was an increase in cholesterol. As I research healthy eating, I always circle back around to some basic principles:
Eat Whole Foods whenever possible
Carbs are good, as long as they are complex and as close to their original state as possible
Protein is good, as long as it is consumed moderately, and balanced between animal- and plant-based
Fat is good, as long as it is unsaturated (plant-based)
Avoid anything that comes with a laundry-list if ingredients, especially one that is longer than 5 items
Eat until you are not hungry, not until you are full.
Each of us need to to do what is best, individually. For me, I had to get out of the rabbit hole of fad plans.
From this post it sounds like you're still firmly in the rabbit hole. Many myths here....12 -
The main advantage of a keto diet (much like low-carb diets in general) for me is that it inhibits appetite. When I am in a "low-carb groove," I don't crave unhealthy foods and I can cruise along through my day without thinking about food much at all. Eating carbs turns me into a continuously "hungry" snacking machine.6
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jnicklinolsen wrote: »The main advantage of a keto diet (much like low-carb diets in general) for me is that it inhibits appetite. When I am in a "low-carb groove," I don't crave unhealthy foods and I can cruise along through my day without thinking about food much at all. Eating carbs turns me into a continuously "hungry" snacking machine.
How often do you eat "carbs" in isolation? What type of carbs are you eating, simple or complex? Do you eat them concurrently with protein, fat, and fiber?
This statement is vague and doesn't really give any information regarding your experience that is valuable. If you flesh it out with more information, you might get some insight into why this is the case for you?
For me, I can eat all the carbs and not have issues, but if it's something like potato chips, I can eat a whole bag and still be hungry... nothing to do with the fact that it's a carb and everything to do with the fact that it's a simple carb with no fiber and no protein to increase my satiation. If I eat those chips with something like a "burger" (In quotes because that whole plant based burger naming legality nonsense going on right now) I get far fuller and desire less chips.
The context in which you eat items, not to mention macros, makes a big difference.5 -
jnicklinolsen wrote: »The main advantage of a keto diet (much like low-carb diets in general) for me is that it inhibits appetite. When I am in a "low-carb groove," I don't crave unhealthy foods and I can cruise along through my day without thinking about food much at all. Eating carbs turns me into a continuously "hungry" snacking machine.
I'm with you if you are talking about high carb foods like donuts.
However, my winter breakfast, high carb rice and lentils, plus an egg, does not have the same effect at all.3 -
wilson10102018 wrote: »The solution offered by Keto does not match the problem. Intake of calories in excess of those used or eliminated causes weight gain. Accordingly, reducing calories is the solution. Duh! While Keto accomplishes this, it does so by changing the balanced diet that humans are designed to consume.
The long term effects of this are anyone's guess. I doubt the sustainability of Keto for most persons. Those with that much will power don't need Keto. Those who don't crave carbs don't need it either. But, like most fad diets, Keto has its true believers. And, faith is important regardless of what diet one follows.
Humans are opportunistic omnivores. By definition, we have no one "balanced diet that humans are designed to consume." This is easily illustrated by the vast differences in traditional diets ranging from heavily starch and fruit based in the tropics to almost entirely meat based in the Arctic, and everything in between, all of which thrive. That alone makes the very word "balanced" meaningless when it comes to the human diet.
As for the sustainability of keto, it's actually not about willpower for most of the people who stick to it. Like a lot of other things in life, "have not, want not" is a thing with that way of eating. When you abstain from something, the desire for it often completely goes away.
For me, personally, it takes less willpower to eat keto and avoid the carbs entirely than it ever did to take the "everything in moderation" approach with the typically-recommended 40-60% carbs. I tried that when I first started and I felt starved. Like, ravenously, hangry, starved. It took a tremendous amount of willpower for me to eat the amount I was "supposed to" just to not gain weight, let alone lose it, and I was miserable because of it. I literally had no idea how people could simply forget to eat, because the hunger was so gnawing and so constant that I couldn't not think about it, and it was a big reason I got fat to begin with.
On keto, though? It's not uncommon for me to be pretty indifferent to eating. Hunger now comes as "yeah, I should probably eat -- and I could eat -- but I want to finish this thing first," and before I know it, another hour has gone by. And I feel satiated without over-eating, and that satiation lasts. For me, carbs -- even complex starches -- aren't satiating and have no lasting power, but the protein+fat combo is the winner.
Is keto for everyone? Of course not. But for every person like you, who presumably have the willpower to have "just a little bit" of something and be satisfied, or who can eat a high-carb diet and do fine, there's someone like me for whom there's not enough willpower in the world to do that and who fares better abstaining from certain things entirely, and for whom a high-carb diet is a disaster.
And yes, reducing calories is how you lose weight. There's nothing magic about keto on that front. The "magic" comes from the fact that -- for those of us for whom this way of eating works -- it makes reducing calories easier (and thus, more sustainable) than the conventional diets.Anabirgite wrote: »tcunbeliever wrote: »Keto has been around for 100 years - that hardly seems like a diet that has died out.
I did keto for about 2 years for migraine control and have now switched to low carb while still maintaining symptom control.
Children should definitely not be keto without doctor supervision because it can impact their growth and bone density so they are monitored closely.
In terms of weight loss, it doesn't matter if you are keto or low carb or just counting calories - assuming an absence of any medical issues that would make one preferable over the other. It all comes down to eating less. Some people get appetite suppression or reduced cravings as a side effect of keto or low carb, and that makes it easy for adherence. You can still gain weight on keto or low carb if you continue to overeat.
It's not magic, it's just doing the math.
Long term, sustainability is key. If you try it and hate it, you aren't going to stick to it. If you try it and think you can eat like that the rest of your life, then you are likely to stick with it and be successful.
Did this work for migraine control? I am very interested to know more regarding this.
It can, yes. A lot of it depends on the root cause of the migraines, but even for people for whom it doesn't work so well, it can be a useful step in the direction of finding what does work, finding triggers, and increasing the threshold even if only a little.
Keto for migraine control has been around and studied for almost as long as keto for seizure control (which makes sense when you look at it from the angle of migraines being the neurological cousin of seizures).
Here are a couple of studies to get you started:
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10072-017-2889-6
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3620251/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30974836
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31357685 <- this one's a randomized, double-blind, crossover study8 -
Everything i am researching shows that keto is a great way to loose weight.... but its bad for long term, its ment for 30-90 days to kickstart you. But then your very likely to gain it back do to its restrictivness. Also puts you at a high risk of diabetes and heart disease. Wouldnt it be smarter to just do low carb and work out n watch what you eat instead of cutting all carbs n putting so much fat into your body? Keto also breaks down muscle mass....give me your thoughts!?
The "kickstart" is water weight. When people use keto as a fad diet (go on for a month or two, lose 10lbs, go back to previous diet), they often "gain everything back" because "everything" was mostly water weight to begin with. After that initial 10lbs or so, it's no longer water weight and you're losing weight just like any other means of calorie reduction. If you choose to eat carbs after going keto you will "gain" upwards of 10lbs or so back, yes, but again it's water weight. That weight is your glycogen stores being refilled, and you'd drop it just as quickly by bringing your carbs back down.
It's no more or less restrictive than any other way of eating, and how well you do on it on the sustainability front depends entirely on how your body responds to it and your mindset. Some people are more satiated by fat, some by protein, some by carbs, some by some combination of two or all three. If you're satiated on carbs or carbs+protein, then keto likely won't be sustainable for you. But if you're satiated on fat or fat+protein, then keto will likely be very easily sustainable.
On the mindset front, it's like anything else - if you keep telling yourself it's restrictive and you think in terms of what you can't have, then it's going to be hard for you, but if you think of it in terms of what you can have and look at it as freeing, then it's going to be much easier. "Whether you think you can or you think you can't, you're probably right," basically.
Diabetes (specifically, type 2 diabetes) is a disorder of insulin and glucose regulation and insulin resistance. It is a dysfunctional state brought on by chronic excess glucose intake. Glucose is pure energy, but in high amounts it's also toxic. If you eat a bunch of sugar and simple carbs all of the time, that gets dumped into your bloodstream where your body has to do...something with it (or it will kill you). It starts by filling glycogen stores, but eventually they fill up and your muscles say "no more" (insulin resistance), so the body pumps out more insulin saying "yes, more," until eventually, your blood sugar is chronically high, because there's nowhere for the sugar to go and your pancreas starts burning out from having to pump out so much insulin all the time. (This is an oversimplification, but you get the idea.)
Keto actually reverses this, because it stops the inflow of externally-sourced glucose, prompting the body to switch to ketones as the main source of energy and requires that the body make its own glucose (a largely demand-driven process). Low carb and ketogenic diets were the de facto treatment for diabetes before meters were a thing, and when meters became a thing, low carb and keto were generally the natural result of "eating to the meter" as long as "eating to the meter" wasn't followed by "and just take more insulin." (See also: Dr Richard Bernstein)
Being keto can cause what's known as "physiological insulin resistance" (which is what's seen when a ketogenic person takes -- and fails -- a glucose tolerance test), but it's a specific state one is in that's designed to preserve the limited glucose for the things that need it most (such as red blood cells). However, that state is a functional one that is reversed in about three days of eating more than about 100g of carbohydrates for the average person.
There isn't really any evidence that keto brings a high risk of heart disease. In fact, the evidence suggests the opposite.
What it does do is alter blood lipids in such a way that it sometimes appears to worsen cholesterol numbers (which is then extrapolated to mean worse cardiovascular health), even though it actually improves one's cardiovascular health. This is because it typically increases HDL (a good thing), and increases the density and size of LDL particles (also a good thing, because then they start acting more like HDL particles). These two things can show up as an increase in total cholesterol (often seen as a bad thing) and an increase in LDL (also seen as bad) in the standard test, because the test makes assumptions that in this case aren't true (the assumption being that higher LDL equals more small, light particles, not the same amount of bigger, denser particles). Furthermore, it typically lowers triglycerides, which is also a good thing.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2716748/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4351995/
As for decreasing lean mass, again the science doesn't really support that, especially when you look at the actual human studies (there are a number that suggest it does for mice, but mice are not humans) that give subjects adequate protein (this is important, because the studies for ketogenic as a seizure treatment often restrict protein, which is a confounding factor for our purposes here, because protein restriction is not necessary if you're not treating seizures).
In fact, in situations of dramatic weight loss, lean mass and resting metabolic rate have been shown to be preserved with a ketogenic diet, despite being very low calorie.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6038311/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5816424/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/277548077 -
Everything i am researching shows that keto is a great way to loose weight.... but its bad for long term, its ment for 30-90 days to kickstart you. But then your very likely to gain it back do to its restrictivness. Also puts you at a high risk of diabetes and heart disease. Wouldnt it be smarter to just do low carb and work out n watch what you eat instead of cutting all carbs n putting so much fat into your body? Keto also breaks down muscle mass....give me your thoughts!?
A relative is dying because of his choice to do for many years on and off a keto diet without consulting with his dr. He has kidney issues, and the keto diet completely destroyed them. Of course he had signs, which he chose to ignore and chose to not follow dr's advice or be honest abput dietary choices when asked, because he trusted his own understanding on this (and lacked the knowledge to understand how wrong he was). Now the damage is irreversible. The problem was not low /no carb. The problem was that his body could not handle the amounts of protein he was eating throughout the years. He did not eat bacon and grease and anything "unhealthy", just mainly meat/fish/eggs and limited amounts of greens.
I have no idea if and how safe it is for someone without a predisposition to a medical problem, but for any diet/lifestyle that excludes or overly emphasises certain food groups, I would consult a dr first. It might be an awesome idea, it might be a terrible idea.8 -
Low fat and very high protein would not be a typical keto diet. The idea of keto is low carb/high fat/moderate protein, and you get energy from fat so would not cut it low. How much meat people on keto eat varies. I prefer to eat less meat and found myself eating more than I prefer (since it was easier than the alternatives and my non animal based sources and even dairy were limited), but my protein levels were about the same as when I don't pay much attention to macros at all.1
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I think alot of what everyone is saying is positive n negative you can get no matter what diet you choose. It all comes down what works for you, but i do think your suppose to eat all the food groups everyday and thats the healthiest. Just need to learn portions. People who are using keto are obviously going to show all the pros. My doctor is not a fan. But like everyone has said it all depends what works for you i was just curious what others thought about things i read.. n wondered if people are just so excited they loose weight this way the risks dont matter.
Also keep in mind, that you can cycle through diet styles to align to time of year. I do keto currently to help cut sole vanity weight. Once i hit my goal, i will increase my carbs, especially those from fruits, grains and oats.
So many believe that the only way to be successful is to "make it a lifestyle". I found that to be baseless and not backed by data. The bigger things that i see as the issue are having a transition and maintenance plan, as well as, making adjustments to your food based on hunger. So many people have no clue how to transition to maintenance or fear adding calories. By adding in things, like periodic maintenance weeks, you increase that probability of being successful. Or if you don't start with a lot of weight, you can taper calories up.
I couldn't agree more.3 -
cuteangelkitten wrote: »Keto is crap , it's pretty simple. We are designed to run on carbs, that is the body's #1 choice of fuel. That is why we store glycogen in our muscles after we eat carbs. The body burns things in this order. Carbs, Fats, and then protein. (burning muscle as the protein.) The enzyme in our mouth called amylase breaks down starches. This is like tubers (potatoes), grains, and beans, and rice ect... This is the fuel we are meant to thrive on All this nonsense with avoiding carbs is an unhealthy fad.
Our body prefers glucose but the reality is we are "designed" to run off multiple fuels. This is how our species has survived....8 -
_______Dragonwolf wrote: »Everything i am researching shows that keto is a great way to loose weight.... but its bad for long term, its ment for 30-90 days to kickstart you. But then your very likely to gain it back do to its restrictivness. Also puts you at a high risk of diabetes and heart disease. Wouldnt it be smarter to just do low carb and work out n watch what you eat instead of cutting all carbs n putting so much fat into your body? Keto also breaks down muscle mass....give me your thoughts!?
The "kickstart" is water weight. When people use keto as a fad diet (go on for a month or two, lose 10lbs, go back to previous diet), they often "gain everything back" because "everything" was mostly water weight to begin with. After that initial 10lbs or so, it's no longer water weight and you're losing weight just like any other means of calorie reduction. If you choose to eat carbs after going keto you will "gain" upwards of 10lbs or so back, yes, but again it's water weight. That weight is your glycogen stores being refilled, and you'd drop it just as quickly by bringing your carbs back down.
It's no more or less restrictive than any other way of eating, and how well you do on it on the sustainability front depends entirely on how your body responds to it and your mindset. Some people are more satiated by fat, some by protein, some by carbs, some by some combination of two or all three. If you're satiated on carbs or carbs+protein, then keto likely won't be sustainable for you. But if you're satiated on fat or fat+protein, then keto will likely be very easily sustainable.
On the mindset front, it's like anything else - if you keep telling yourself it's restrictive and you think in terms of what you can't have, then it's going to be hard for you, but if you think of it in terms of what you can have and look at it as freeing, then it's going to be much easier. "Whether you think you can or you think you can't, you're probably right," basically.
Diabetes (specifically, type 2 diabetes) is a disorder of insulin and glucose regulation and insulin resistance. It is a dysfunctional state brought on by chronic excess glucose intake. Glucose is pure energy, but in high amounts it's also toxic. If you eat a bunch of sugar and simple carbs all of the time, that gets dumped into your bloodstream where your body has to do...something with it (or it will kill you). It starts by filling glycogen stores, but eventually they fill up and your muscles say "no more" (insulin resistance), so the body pumps out more insulin saying "yes, more," until eventually, your blood sugar is chronically high, because there's nowhere for the sugar to go and your pancreas starts burning out from having to pump out so much insulin all the time. (This is an oversimplification, but you get the idea.)
Keto actually reverses this, because it stops the inflow of externally-sourced glucose, prompting the body to switch to ketones as the main source of energy and requires that the body make its own glucose (a largely demand-driven process). Low carb and ketogenic diets were the de facto treatment for diabetes before meters were a thing, and when meters became a thing, low carb and keto were generally the natural result of "eating to the meter" as long as "eating to the meter" wasn't followed by "and just take more insulin." (See also: Dr Richard Bernstein)
Being keto can cause what's known as "physiological insulin resistance" (which is what's seen when a ketogenic person takes -- and fails -- a glucose tolerance test), but it's a specific state one is in that's designed to preserve the limited glucose for the things that need it most (such as red blood cells). However, that state is a functional one that is reversed in about three days of eating more than about 100g of carbohydrates for the average person.
There isn't really any evidence that keto brings a high risk of heart disease. In fact, the evidence suggests the opposite.
What it does do is alter blood lipids in such a way that it sometimes appears to worsen cholesterol numbers (which is then extrapolated to mean worse cardiovascular health), even though it actually improves one's cardiovascular health. This is because it typically increases HDL (a good thing), and increases the density and size of LDL particles (also a good thing, because then they start acting more like HDL particles). These two things can show up as an increase in total cholesterol (often seen as a bad thing) and an increase in LDL (also seen as bad) in the standard test, because the test makes assumptions that in this case aren't true (the assumption being that higher LDL equals more small, light particles, not the same amount of bigger, denser particles). Furthermore, it typically lowers triglycerides, which is also a good thing.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2716748/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4351995/
As for decreasing lean mass, again the science doesn't really support that, especially when you look at the actual human studies (there are a number that suggest it does for mice, but mice are not humans) that give subjects adequate protein (this is important, because the studies for ketogenic as a seizure treatment often restrict protein, which is a confounding factor for our purposes here, because protein restriction is not necessary if you're not treating seizures).
In fact, in situations of dramatic weight loss, lean mass and resting metabolic rate have been shown to be preserved with a ketogenic diet, despite being very low calorie.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6038311/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5816424/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27754807
DragonWolf,
Thank you for your thoughtful post that includes the links on cholesterol. I am educating myself and appreciate the information you have shared.4 -
Everything i am researching shows that keto is a great way to loose weight.... but its bad for long term, its ment for 30-90 days to kickstart you. But then your very likely to gain it back do to its restrictivness. Also puts you at a high risk of diabetes and heart disease. Wouldnt it be smarter to just do low carb and work out n watch what you eat instead of cutting all carbs n putting so much fat into your body? Keto also breaks down muscle mass....give me your thoughts!?
A relative is dying because of his choice to do for many years on and off a keto diet without consulting with his dr. He has kidney issues, and the keto diet completely destroyed them. Of course he had signs, which he chose to ignore and chose to not follow dr's advice or be honest abput dietary choices when asked, because he trusted his own understanding on this (and lacked the knowledge to understand how wrong he was). Now the damage is irreversible. The problem was not low /no carb. The problem was that his body could not handle the amounts of protein he was eating throughout the years. He did not eat bacon and grease and anything "unhealthy", just mainly meat/fish/eggs and limited amounts of greens.
I have no idea if and how safe it is for someone without a predisposition to a medical problem, but for any diet/lifestyle that excludes or overly emphasises certain food groups, I would consult a dr first. It might be an awesome idea, it might be a terrible idea.
I am sorry that your relative is going through such a traumatic situation, but I am curious to understand how it was assessed that protein caused the kidney issues. The current evidence on protein and kidney function wouldn't support such an assertion. Not saying one off cases aren't possible, but considering my wife's extension medical history, I doubt there is conclusive evidence to be able to pinpoint actions that caused such results.2 -
Dragonwolf wrote: »
In fact, in situations of dramatic weight loss, lean mass and resting metabolic rate have been shown to be preserved with a ketogenic diet, despite being very low calorie.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6038311/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5816424/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27754807
The first study doesn't align to what you are describing. If anything it would suggest bulking with keto is suboptimal. Since it was a hypercaloric study and didn't show LBM gain (in fact a small loss), that it didn't accomplish it's goal. It did show minimal LBM loss as compared to overall weight loss. But it's also a short 8 week study with 12 men.
2 -
Everything i am researching shows that keto is a great way to loose weight.... but its bad for long term, its ment for 30-90 days to kickstart you. But then your very likely to gain it back do to its restrictivness. Also puts you at a high risk of diabetes and heart disease. Wouldnt it be smarter to just do low carb and work out n watch what you eat instead of cutting all carbs n putting so much fat into your body? Keto also breaks down muscle mass....give me your thoughts!?
A relative is dying because of his choice to do for many years on and off a keto diet without consulting with his dr. He has kidney issues, and the keto diet completely destroyed them. Of course he had signs, which he chose to ignore and chose to not follow dr's advice or be honest abput dietary choices when asked, because he trusted his own understanding on this (and lacked the knowledge to understand how wrong he was). Now the damage is irreversible. The problem was not low /no carb. The problem was that his body could not handle the amounts of protein he was eating throughout the years. He did not eat bacon and grease and anything "unhealthy", just mainly meat/fish/eggs and limited amounts of greens.
I have no idea if and how safe it is for someone without a predisposition to a medical problem, but for any diet/lifestyle that excludes or overly emphasises certain food groups, I would consult a dr first. It might be an awesome idea, it might be a terrible idea.
I am sorry that your relative is going through such a traumatic situation, but I am curious to understand how it was assessed that protein caused the kidney issues. The current evidence on protein and kidney function wouldn't support such an assertion. Not saying one off cases aren't possible, but considering my wife's extension medical history, I doubt there is conclusive evidence to be able to pinpoint actions that caused such results.
I do not know the details, but he was told the same by multiple specialists. I imagine that if there is a predisposition to a specific health issue, this changes things completely. I am pretty sure that a low protein diet is recommended for people suffering from kidney disease, and a fast google search in medical journeys seems to support this. For example this is very recent: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5962279/
Now, whether a healthy individual can be affected by a high protein diet, this I do not know. But same as for any diet that is not "mainstream", I would personally consult with a dr, to be safe. I am for example on a low-ish fat, mainly plant based diet, both by preference but also on dr's orders, since I have a predisposition to high cholesterol. For the same reason, I cannot eat too much dietary cholesterol , as it affects my health. The same is not true e.g. for my husband, who does not suffer from the same genetic issues, and manages to keep a much better cholesterol profile, with no effort at all.2 -
just to clarify: fats (fatty acids & triglycerides) are a stored form for excess carbohydrates, and beta oxidation (fatty acid breakdown) in the liver fuels gluconeogenesis to provide glucose (carbohydrate) for the brain and red blood cells. while your brain can eventually subsist on ketone bodies during extreme, long term fasting, red blood cells always require glucose to function.
amino acids are only used as fuel during gluconeogenesis as building blocks for, again, glucose formation. otherwise, amino acids from protein consumption are used to make... more protein! so, while fatty acids (FAs) and amino acids are certainly part of the energy cycle, and FAs--which are generated from glucose--can fuel tissues like muscle, carbohydrates are the essential energy source our bodies require. if you aren't getting enough through consumption, your body has to make it.
true ketosis is a starvation state. everyone can eat whatever way they like, but I think it's important to understand what's going on biochemically when eating highly restrictive diets.
sidenote: ketosis also accurs in diabetic individuals when they have insufficient insulin. it can escalate to dangerous levels that additionally makes the blood more acidic (ketoacidosis).4 -
Everything i am researching shows that keto is a great way to loose weight.... but its bad for long term, its ment for 30-90 days to kickstart you. But then your very likely to gain it back do to its restrictivness. Also puts you at a high risk of diabetes and heart disease. Wouldnt it be smarter to just do low carb and work out n watch what you eat instead of cutting all carbs n putting so much fat into your body? Keto also breaks down muscle mass....give me your thoughts!?
A relative is dying because of his choice to do for many years on and off a keto diet without consulting with his dr. He has kidney issues, and the keto diet completely destroyed them. Of course he had signs, which he chose to ignore and chose to not follow dr's advice or be honest abput dietary choices when asked, because he trusted his own understanding on this (and lacked the knowledge to understand how wrong he was). Now the damage is irreversible. The problem was not low /no carb. The problem was that his body could not handle the amounts of protein he was eating throughout the years. He did not eat bacon and grease and anything "unhealthy", just mainly meat/fish/eggs and limited amounts of greens.
I have no idea if and how safe it is for someone without a predisposition to a medical problem, but for any diet/lifestyle that excludes or overly emphasises certain food groups, I would consult a dr first. It might be an awesome idea, it might be a terrible idea.
I am sorry that your relative is going through such a traumatic situation, but I am curious to understand how it was assessed that protein caused the kidney issues. The current evidence on protein and kidney function wouldn't support such an assertion. Not saying one off cases aren't possible, but considering my wife's extension medical history, I doubt there is conclusive evidence to be able to pinpoint actions that caused such results.
I do not know the details, but he was told the same by multiple specialists. I imagine that if there is a predisposition to a specific health issue, this changes things completely. I am pretty sure that a low protein diet is recommended for people suffering from kidney disease, and a fast google search in medical journeys seems to support this. For example this is very recent: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5962279/
Now, whether a healthy individual can be affected by a high protein diet, this I do not know. But same as for any diet that is not "mainstream", I would personally consult with a dr, to be safe. I am for example on a low-ish fat, mainly plant based diet, both by preference but also on dr's orders, since I have a predisposition to high cholesterol. For the same reason, I cannot eat too much dietary cholesterol , as it affects my health. The same is not true e.g. for my husband, who does not suffer from the same genetic issues, and manages to keep a much better cholesterol profile, with no effort at all.
The treatment of a disease can often be different from the cause. But I will defer going into more discussions regarding kidneys and protein consumption to not derail the thread.1 -
Everyone is getting really offensive...it comes down to this...depending where you look you can find articles showing keto is healthy or you can find studies showing its unhealthy just like anything else in this world! Someone above said first 10lbs on keto are water n if you stop after that youll gain it back... thats not keto thats any diet! I lost 7lbs of water weight last week starting a new diet and eating carbs. Its all about being smart with what you eat. This week i have gained a lb but lost over two inches between my thighs n waist. YOU HAVE TO DO WHAT WORKS FOR YOU! If its keto thats great as long as you can restrict yourself to that diet forever. Others dont like to do so and choose another method and thats fine too!5
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Everyone is getting really offensive...it comes down to this...depending where you look you can find articles showing keto is healthy or you can find studies showing its unhealthy just like anything else in this world! Someone above said first 10lbs on keto are water n if you stop after that youll gain it back... thats not keto thats any diet! I lost 7lbs of water weight last week starting a new diet and eating carbs. Its all about being smart with what you eat. This week i have gained a lb but lost over two inches between my thighs n waist. YOU HAVE TO DO WHAT WORKS FOR YOU! If its keto thats great as long as you can restrict yourself to that diet forever. Others dont like to do so and choose another method and thats fine too!
Everyone? Way to insult all of the numerous people who have posted on the thread.
It's common to lose more water weight at the beginning of keto (even if you've already been dieting) because dropping carbs causes a drop of water. That's related to keto flu too, and why it's important to make sure you have sufficient electrolytes (many will recommend consuming more salt at the beginning of keto).
I would say that the vast majority of posts in this thread have agreed that people should do what works for them, and that keto works really well for some and makes no difference or makes things hard/impossible for others. Some people have just disagreed with some of the things in your OP. (Everything I would have said directly in response to that has been said.)
There's absolutely no need to "do keto" (or whatever you do) forever. I tried keto for a while (on maintenance), decided it wasn't for me, but enjoyed and am glad I did the experiment. I've done other experiments too, and played around with the carb percentage (I'm currently back to kind of low, not keto).10 -
Everyone is getting really offensive...it comes down to this...depending where you look you can find articles showing keto is healthy or you can find studies showing its unhealthy just like anything else in this world! Someone above said first 10lbs on keto are water n if you stop after that youll gain it back... thats not keto thats any diet! I lost 7lbs of water weight last week starting a new diet and eating carbs. Its all about being smart with what you eat. This week i have gained a lb but lost over two inches between my thighs n waist. YOU HAVE TO DO WHAT WORKS FOR YOU! If its keto thats great as long as you can restrict yourself to that diet forever. Others dont like to do so and choose another method and thats fine too!
And they'll restrict themselves to that diet forever?2
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