Keto unhealthy???

2

Replies

  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,431 MFP Moderator
    ccrdragon wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    caligkela wrote: »
    I just finished a biochemistry class for my degree and the professor told us about a conference he had been to on biochem in nutrition. 10/10 biochemists do NOT recommend Keto or long term intermittent fasting. Both have detrimental affects on muscle wastage tolerance and risk of ketoacidosis.

    There isn't evidence to support either of those statements.

    Just throwing this out there as food for thought.
    There "wasn't evidence" of grain-free diets being harmful for dogs, either. And it took loads of dogs to develop a severe and deadly heart condition, and a long time for it to be linked to grain free diets, before the FDA released any information or warnings on it.
    Not saying there IS credible evidence, but I know that often, the research is way behind and we never find out just how BAD something is for us until its too late.
    I'd rather not take any risks like that and just stick to a normal calorie deficit by monitoring portions and making sure my proteins, fats, and carbs are balanced. Not one practically eliminated or drastically reduced.

    The only problem with this is that the Keto diet has been around and in use since the early 1900's (or before). I think any major health concerns would have shown up by now.

    Yes, but modern medicine has not.

    We used to believe that women had demons inside them that had to be exorcised by the use of "medical instruments" that we now buy to do the dirty with ourselves. The word "hysteria" literally comes from that. The latin root "hyster" is used to describe the uterus, hence why a hysterectomy is a removal of the uterus.

    Not saying that keto is stupid at all.

    I'm just saying that we weren't always all that educated and we're learning and discovering more every day.

    No matter how much we science the crap out of something, there will still be questions regarding diets. Just look at aspartame. Its been studied 50 years and still has recent research regarding its safety.
  • kshama2001
    kshama2001 Posts: 28,052 Member
    psuLemon wrote: »
    caligkela wrote: »
    I just finished a biochemistry class for my degree and the professor told us about a conference he had been to on biochem in nutrition. 10/10 biochemists do NOT recommend Keto or long term intermittent fasting. Both have detrimental affects on muscle wastage tolerance and risk of ketoacidosis.

    There isn't evidence to support either of those statements.

    Just throwing this out there as food for thought.
    There "wasn't evidence" of grain-free diets being harmful for dogs, either. And it took loads of dogs to develop a severe and deadly heart condition, and a long time for it to be linked to grain free diets, before the FDA released any information or warnings on it.
    Not saying there IS credible evidence, but I know that often, the research is way behind and we never find out just how BAD something is for us until its too late.
    I'd rather not take any risks like that and just stick to a normal calorie deficit by monitoring portions and making sure my proteins, fats, and carbs are balanced. Not one practically eliminated or drastically reduced.

    Interesting. In case anyone else was wondering: https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/news-events/fda-investigation-potential-link-between-certain-diets-and-canine-dilated-cardiomyopathy

    My mother and brother feed their dog a grain-free food that does have peas in the first 6 ingredients.
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 34,617 Member
    psuLemon wrote: »
    caligkela wrote: »
    I just finished a biochemistry class for my degree and the professor told us about a conference he had been to on biochem in nutrition. 10/10 biochemists do NOT recommend Keto or long term intermittent fasting. Both have detrimental affects on muscle wastage tolerance and risk of ketoacidosis.

    There isn't evidence to support either of those statements.

    Just throwing this out there as food for thought.
    There "wasn't evidence" of grain-free diets being harmful for dogs, either. And it took loads of dogs to develop a severe and deadly heart condition, and a long time for it to be linked to grain free diets, before the FDA released any information or warnings on it.
    Not saying there IS credible evidence, but I know that often, the research is way behind and we never find out just how BAD something is for us until its too late.
    I'd rather not take any risks like that and just stick to a normal calorie deficit by monitoring portions and making sure my proteins, fats, and carbs are balanced. Not one practically eliminated or drastically reduced.

    Then how should we decide what to be afraid of? Just be afraid of everthing?

    Don't get me wrong, I'm with you on the "natural selection tested human diets" idea . . . but those are pretty diverse.
  • BarbaraHelen2013
    BarbaraHelen2013 Posts: 1,941 Member
    kshama2001 wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    caligkela wrote: »
    I just finished a biochemistry class for my degree and the professor told us about a conference he had been to on biochem in nutrition. 10/10 biochemists do NOT recommend Keto or long term intermittent fasting. Both have detrimental affects on muscle wastage tolerance and risk of ketoacidosis.

    There isn't evidence to support either of those statements.

    Just throwing this out there as food for thought.
    There "wasn't evidence" of grain-free diets being harmful for dogs, either. And it took loads of dogs to develop a severe and deadly heart condition, and a long time for it to be linked to grain free diets, before the FDA released any information or warnings on it.
    Not saying there IS credible evidence, but I know that often, the research is way behind and we never find out just how BAD something is for us until its too late.
    I'd rather not take any risks like that and just stick to a normal calorie deficit by monitoring portions and making sure my proteins, fats, and carbs are balanced. Not one practically eliminated or drastically reduced.

    Interesting. In case anyone else was wondering: https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/news-events/fda-investigation-potential-link-between-certain-diets-and-canine-dilated-cardiomyopathy

    My mother and brother feed their dog a grain-free food that does have peas in the first 6 ingredients.

    Thank you for the link, I was wondering. My dog is allergic (blood tests by the vet, not just our neurosis) to wheat, rice, maize, cows milk, beef, white fish, dust mites plus many tree and grass pollens so that was an interesting read!
  • kshama2001
    kshama2001 Posts: 28,052 Member
    The main advantage of a keto diet (much like low-carb diets in general) for me is that it inhibits appetite. When I am in a "low-carb groove," I don't crave unhealthy foods and I can cruise along through my day without thinking about food much at all. Eating carbs turns me into a continuously "hungry" snacking machine.

    I'm with you if you are talking about high carb foods like donuts.

    However, my winter breakfast, high carb rice and lentils, plus an egg, does not have the same effect at all.
  • lemurcat2
    lemurcat2 Posts: 7,885 Member
    Low fat and very high protein would not be a typical keto diet. The idea of keto is low carb/high fat/moderate protein, and you get energy from fat so would not cut it low. How much meat people on keto eat varies. I prefer to eat less meat and found myself eating more than I prefer (since it was easier than the alternatives and my non animal based sources and even dairy were limited), but my protein levels were about the same as when I don't pay much attention to macros at all.
  • Sabine_Stroehm
    Sabine_Stroehm Posts: 19,263 Member
    psuLemon wrote: »
    chixy18 wrote: »
    I think alot of what everyone is saying is positive n negative you can get no matter what diet you choose. It all comes down what works for you, but i do think your suppose to eat all the food groups everyday and thats the healthiest. Just need to learn portions. People who are using keto are obviously going to show all the pros. My doctor is not a fan. But like everyone has said it all depends what works for you i was just curious what others thought about things i read.. n wondered if people are just so excited they loose weight this way the risks dont matter.

    Also keep in mind, that you can cycle through diet styles to align to time of year. I do keto currently to help cut sole vanity weight. Once i hit my goal, i will increase my carbs, especially those from fruits, grains and oats.

    So many believe that the only way to be successful is to "make it a lifestyle". I found that to be baseless and not backed by data. The bigger things that i see as the issue are having a transition and maintenance plan, as well as, making adjustments to your food based on hunger. So many people have no clue how to transition to maintenance or fear adding calories. By adding in things, like periodic maintenance weeks, you increase that probability of being successful. Or if you don't start with a lot of weight, you can taper calories up.

    I couldn't agree more.
  • sabl57
    sabl57 Posts: 5 Member
    Dragonwolf wrote: »
    chixy18 wrote: »
    Everything i am researching shows that keto is a great way to loose weight.... but its bad for long term, its ment for 30-90 days to kickstart you. But then your very likely to gain it back do to its restrictivness. Also puts you at a high risk of diabetes and heart disease. Wouldnt it be smarter to just do low carb and work out n watch what you eat instead of cutting all carbs n putting so much fat into your body? Keto also breaks down muscle mass....give me your thoughts!?

    The "kickstart" is water weight. When people use keto as a fad diet (go on for a month or two, lose 10lbs, go back to previous diet), they often "gain everything back" because "everything" was mostly water weight to begin with. After that initial 10lbs or so, it's no longer water weight and you're losing weight just like any other means of calorie reduction. If you choose to eat carbs after going keto you will "gain" upwards of 10lbs or so back, yes, but again it's water weight. That weight is your glycogen stores being refilled, and you'd drop it just as quickly by bringing your carbs back down.

    It's no more or less restrictive than any other way of eating, and how well you do on it on the sustainability front depends entirely on how your body responds to it and your mindset. Some people are more satiated by fat, some by protein, some by carbs, some by some combination of two or all three. If you're satiated on carbs or carbs+protein, then keto likely won't be sustainable for you. But if you're satiated on fat or fat+protein, then keto will likely be very easily sustainable.

    On the mindset front, it's like anything else - if you keep telling yourself it's restrictive and you think in terms of what you can't have, then it's going to be hard for you, but if you think of it in terms of what you can have and look at it as freeing, then it's going to be much easier. "Whether you think you can or you think you can't, you're probably right," basically.

    Diabetes (specifically, type 2 diabetes) is a disorder of insulin and glucose regulation and insulin resistance. It is a dysfunctional state brought on by chronic excess glucose intake. Glucose is pure energy, but in high amounts it's also toxic. If you eat a bunch of sugar and simple carbs all of the time, that gets dumped into your bloodstream where your body has to do...something with it (or it will kill you). It starts by filling glycogen stores, but eventually they fill up and your muscles say "no more" (insulin resistance), so the body pumps out more insulin saying "yes, more," until eventually, your blood sugar is chronically high, because there's nowhere for the sugar to go and your pancreas starts burning out from having to pump out so much insulin all the time. (This is an oversimplification, but you get the idea.)

    Keto actually reverses this, because it stops the inflow of externally-sourced glucose, prompting the body to switch to ketones as the main source of energy and requires that the body make its own glucose (a largely demand-driven process). Low carb and ketogenic diets were the de facto treatment for diabetes before meters were a thing, and when meters became a thing, low carb and keto were generally the natural result of "eating to the meter" as long as "eating to the meter" wasn't followed by "and just take more insulin." (See also: Dr Richard Bernstein)

    Being keto can cause what's known as "physiological insulin resistance" (which is what's seen when a ketogenic person takes -- and fails -- a glucose tolerance test), but it's a specific state one is in that's designed to preserve the limited glucose for the things that need it most (such as red blood cells). However, that state is a functional one that is reversed in about three days of eating more than about 100g of carbohydrates for the average person.

    There isn't really any evidence that keto brings a high risk of heart disease. In fact, the evidence suggests the opposite.

    What it does do is alter blood lipids in such a way that it sometimes appears to worsen cholesterol numbers (which is then extrapolated to mean worse cardiovascular health), even though it actually improves one's cardiovascular health. This is because it typically increases HDL (a good thing), and increases the density and size of LDL particles (also a good thing, because then they start acting more like HDL particles). These two things can show up as an increase in total cholesterol (often seen as a bad thing) and an increase in LDL (also seen as bad) in the standard test, because the test makes assumptions that in this case aren't true (the assumption being that higher LDL equals more small, light particles, not the same amount of bigger, denser particles). Furthermore, it typically lowers triglycerides, which is also a good thing.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2716748/

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4351995/

    As for decreasing lean mass, again the science doesn't really support that, especially when you look at the actual human studies (there are a number that suggest it does for mice, but mice are not humans) that give subjects adequate protein (this is important, because the studies for ketogenic as a seizure treatment often restrict protein, which is a confounding factor for our purposes here, because protein restriction is not necessary if you're not treating seizures).

    In fact, in situations of dramatic weight loss, lean mass and resting metabolic rate have been shown to be preserved with a ketogenic diet, despite being very low calorie.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6038311/

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5816424/

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27754807
    _______

    DragonWolf,

    Thank you for your thoughtful post that includes the links on cholesterol. I am educating myself and appreciate the information you have shared.
  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,431 MFP Moderator
    LKArgh wrote: »
    chixy18 wrote: »
    Everything i am researching shows that keto is a great way to loose weight.... but its bad for long term, its ment for 30-90 days to kickstart you. But then your very likely to gain it back do to its restrictivness. Also puts you at a high risk of diabetes and heart disease. Wouldnt it be smarter to just do low carb and work out n watch what you eat instead of cutting all carbs n putting so much fat into your body? Keto also breaks down muscle mass....give me your thoughts!?

    A relative is dying because of his choice to do for many years on and off a keto diet without consulting with his dr. He has kidney issues, and the keto diet completely destroyed them. Of course he had signs, which he chose to ignore and chose to not follow dr's advice or be honest abput dietary choices when asked, because he trusted his own understanding on this (and lacked the knowledge to understand how wrong he was). Now the damage is irreversible. The problem was not low /no carb. The problem was that his body could not handle the amounts of protein he was eating throughout the years. He did not eat bacon and grease and anything "unhealthy", just mainly meat/fish/eggs and limited amounts of greens.
    I have no idea if and how safe it is for someone without a predisposition to a medical problem, but for any diet/lifestyle that excludes or overly emphasises certain food groups, I would consult a dr first. It might be an awesome idea, it might be a terrible idea.

    I am sorry that your relative is going through such a traumatic situation, but I am curious to understand how it was assessed that protein caused the kidney issues. The current evidence on protein and kidney function wouldn't support such an assertion. Not saying one off cases aren't possible, but considering my wife's extension medical history, I doubt there is conclusive evidence to be able to pinpoint actions that caused such results.
  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,431 MFP Moderator
    Dragonwolf wrote: »

    In fact, in situations of dramatic weight loss, lean mass and resting metabolic rate have been shown to be preserved with a ketogenic diet, despite being very low calorie.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6038311/

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5816424/

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27754807


    The first study doesn't align to what you are describing. If anything it would suggest bulking with keto is suboptimal. Since it was a hypercaloric study and didn't show LBM gain (in fact a small loss), that it didn't accomplish it's goal. It did show minimal LBM loss as compared to overall weight loss. But it's also a short 8 week study with 12 men.


  • LKArgh
    LKArgh Posts: 5,178 Member
    psuLemon wrote: »
    LKArgh wrote: »
    chixy18 wrote: »
    Everything i am researching shows that keto is a great way to loose weight.... but its bad for long term, its ment for 30-90 days to kickstart you. But then your very likely to gain it back do to its restrictivness. Also puts you at a high risk of diabetes and heart disease. Wouldnt it be smarter to just do low carb and work out n watch what you eat instead of cutting all carbs n putting so much fat into your body? Keto also breaks down muscle mass....give me your thoughts!?

    A relative is dying because of his choice to do for many years on and off a keto diet without consulting with his dr. He has kidney issues, and the keto diet completely destroyed them. Of course he had signs, which he chose to ignore and chose to not follow dr's advice or be honest abput dietary choices when asked, because he trusted his own understanding on this (and lacked the knowledge to understand how wrong he was). Now the damage is irreversible. The problem was not low /no carb. The problem was that his body could not handle the amounts of protein he was eating throughout the years. He did not eat bacon and grease and anything "unhealthy", just mainly meat/fish/eggs and limited amounts of greens.
    I have no idea if and how safe it is for someone without a predisposition to a medical problem, but for any diet/lifestyle that excludes or overly emphasises certain food groups, I would consult a dr first. It might be an awesome idea, it might be a terrible idea.

    I am sorry that your relative is going through such a traumatic situation, but I am curious to understand how it was assessed that protein caused the kidney issues. The current evidence on protein and kidney function wouldn't support such an assertion. Not saying one off cases aren't possible, but considering my wife's extension medical history, I doubt there is conclusive evidence to be able to pinpoint actions that caused such results.

    I do not know the details, but he was told the same by multiple specialists. I imagine that if there is a predisposition to a specific health issue, this changes things completely. I am pretty sure that a low protein diet is recommended for people suffering from kidney disease, and a fast google search in medical journeys seems to support this. For example this is very recent: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5962279/
    Now, whether a healthy individual can be affected by a high protein diet, this I do not know. But same as for any diet that is not "mainstream", I would personally consult with a dr, to be safe. I am for example on a low-ish fat, mainly plant based diet, both by preference but also on dr's orders, since I have a predisposition to high cholesterol. For the same reason, I cannot eat too much dietary cholesterol , as it affects my health. The same is not true e.g. for my husband, who does not suffer from the same genetic issues, and manages to keep a much better cholesterol profile, with no effort at all.
  • amkita
    amkita Posts: 183 Member
    just to clarify: fats (fatty acids & triglycerides) are a stored form for excess carbohydrates, and beta oxidation (fatty acid breakdown) in the liver fuels gluconeogenesis to provide glucose (carbohydrate) for the brain and red blood cells. while your brain can eventually subsist on ketone bodies during extreme, long term fasting, red blood cells always require glucose to function.

    amino acids are only used as fuel during gluconeogenesis as building blocks for, again, glucose formation. otherwise, amino acids from protein consumption are used to make... more protein! so, while fatty acids (FAs) and amino acids are certainly part of the energy cycle, and FAs--which are generated from glucose--can fuel tissues like muscle, carbohydrates are the essential energy source our bodies require. if you aren't getting enough through consumption, your body has to make it.

    true ketosis is a starvation state. everyone can eat whatever way they like, but I think it's important to understand what's going on biochemically when eating highly restrictive diets.

    sidenote: ketosis also accurs in diabetic individuals when they have insufficient insulin. it can escalate to dangerous levels that additionally makes the blood more acidic (ketoacidosis).
  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,431 MFP Moderator
    LKArgh wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    LKArgh wrote: »
    chixy18 wrote: »
    Everything i am researching shows that keto is a great way to loose weight.... but its bad for long term, its ment for 30-90 days to kickstart you. But then your very likely to gain it back do to its restrictivness. Also puts you at a high risk of diabetes and heart disease. Wouldnt it be smarter to just do low carb and work out n watch what you eat instead of cutting all carbs n putting so much fat into your body? Keto also breaks down muscle mass....give me your thoughts!?

    A relative is dying because of his choice to do for many years on and off a keto diet without consulting with his dr. He has kidney issues, and the keto diet completely destroyed them. Of course he had signs, which he chose to ignore and chose to not follow dr's advice or be honest abput dietary choices when asked, because he trusted his own understanding on this (and lacked the knowledge to understand how wrong he was). Now the damage is irreversible. The problem was not low /no carb. The problem was that his body could not handle the amounts of protein he was eating throughout the years. He did not eat bacon and grease and anything "unhealthy", just mainly meat/fish/eggs and limited amounts of greens.
    I have no idea if and how safe it is for someone without a predisposition to a medical problem, but for any diet/lifestyle that excludes or overly emphasises certain food groups, I would consult a dr first. It might be an awesome idea, it might be a terrible idea.

    I am sorry that your relative is going through such a traumatic situation, but I am curious to understand how it was assessed that protein caused the kidney issues. The current evidence on protein and kidney function wouldn't support such an assertion. Not saying one off cases aren't possible, but considering my wife's extension medical history, I doubt there is conclusive evidence to be able to pinpoint actions that caused such results.

    I do not know the details, but he was told the same by multiple specialists. I imagine that if there is a predisposition to a specific health issue, this changes things completely. I am pretty sure that a low protein diet is recommended for people suffering from kidney disease, and a fast google search in medical journeys seems to support this. For example this is very recent: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5962279/
    Now, whether a healthy individual can be affected by a high protein diet, this I do not know. But same as for any diet that is not "mainstream", I would personally consult with a dr, to be safe. I am for example on a low-ish fat, mainly plant based diet, both by preference but also on dr's orders, since I have a predisposition to high cholesterol. For the same reason, I cannot eat too much dietary cholesterol , as it affects my health. The same is not true e.g. for my husband, who does not suffer from the same genetic issues, and manages to keep a much better cholesterol profile, with no effort at all.

    The treatment of a disease can often be different from the cause. But I will defer going into more discussions regarding kidneys and protein consumption to not derail the thread.
  • Sabine_Stroehm
    Sabine_Stroehm Posts: 19,263 Member
    chixy18 wrote: »
    Everyone is getting really offensive...it comes down to this...depending where you look you can find articles showing keto is healthy or you can find studies showing its unhealthy just like anything else in this world! Someone above said first 10lbs on keto are water n if you stop after that youll gain it back... thats not keto thats any diet! I lost 7lbs of water weight last week starting a new diet and eating carbs. Its all about being smart with what you eat. This week i have gained a lb but lost over two inches between my thighs n waist. YOU HAVE TO DO WHAT WORKS FOR YOU! If its keto thats great as long as you can restrict yourself to that diet forever. Others dont like to do so and choose another method and thats fine too!

    And they'll restrict themselves to that diet forever?
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