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Please help with this argument- Intermittent fasting related
raven56706
Posts: 918 Member
in Debate Club
On my friends side, he says Intermittent Fasting has tons of benefits and doesnt't have to be done with Keto.
I have said " if it doesnt have anything to do with Keto, why fast? just stick to the calories and thats it."
i mean correct me if i am wrong (i checked google and forget it. tons of "experts" ) but IF is just a way to restrict your calories thats it. say you eat 1800 calories a day for weight loss. if you eat 200 calories at lets say 8am, then you have the ENTIRE day to eat 1600. You don't have to wait but just be mindful of your eating.
What i am trying to say is there is no magic to it correct?
I have said " if it doesnt have anything to do with Keto, why fast? just stick to the calories and thats it."
i mean correct me if i am wrong (i checked google and forget it. tons of "experts" ) but IF is just a way to restrict your calories thats it. say you eat 1800 calories a day for weight loss. if you eat 200 calories at lets say 8am, then you have the ENTIRE day to eat 1600. You don't have to wait but just be mindful of your eating.
What i am trying to say is there is no magic to it correct?
13
Replies
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Correct. Intermittent Fasting is only about meal timing and has nothing to do with how much or what you eat. There is no magic in it, it is just one of many strategies people can use to restrict calories enough to lose weight. Same thing with Keto. Nothing magic about it, it is another way some have found to restrict calories.29
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I would add both aim to aid satiety while maintaining a deficit.15
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For weight loss IF is just another way to manage calories. There is growing research though around additional health benefits of this way of eating not related specifically to weight.
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/intermittent-fasting-surprising-update-201806291415621 -
In a person with no insulin issues IF can help a person lose weight which has a load of potential health benefits. If a person loses weight without IF or Keto they still can have a load of potential health benefits.
To date all the promising research is only promising in rats. If you have a pet rat and want it to live longer than IF is a good thing to try.
No benefit other than improved insulin issues has been proven in humans.
23 -
No magic in any diet plan you use to lose weight. It’s always about eating less calories than your body burns. How you get there is what works for each of us for long term success.
Different strokes, for different folks.22 -
In a person with no insulin issues IF can help a person lose weight which has a load of potential health benefits. If a person loses weight without IF or Keto they still can have a load of potential health benefits.
To date all the promising research is only promising in rats. If you have a pet rat and want it to live longer than IF is a good thing to try.
No benefit other than improved insulin issues has been proven in humans.
“Based on this, researchers from the University of Alabama conducted a study with a small group of obese men with prediabetes. They compared a form of intermittent fasting called “early time-restricted feeding,” where all meals were fit into an early eight-hour period of the day (7 am to 3 pm), or spread out over 12 hours (between 7 am and 7 pm). Both groups maintained their weight (did not gain or lose) but after five weeks, the eight-hours group had dramatically lower insulin levels and significantly improved insulin sensitivity, as well as significantly lower blood pressure. The best part? The eight-hours group also had significantly decreased appetite. They weren’t starving.”
This is from the Harvard article posted in my original comment. More research is being conducted regularly and we are learning more.34 -
For weight loss IF is just another way to manage calories. There is growing research though around additional health benefits of this way of eating not related specifically to weight.
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/intermittent-fasting-surprising-update-2018062914156
Did you read this paragraph in the blog you linked to:
'There’s a ton of incredibly promising intermittent fasting (IF) research done on fat rats. They lose weight, their blood pressure, cholesterol, and blood sugars improve… but they’re rats. Studies in humans, almost across the board, have shown that IF is safe and incredibly effective, but really no more effective than any other diet. In addition, many people find it difficult to fast.'
When they start reproducing the results in humans, I will start paying attention to the 'magic' of IF.19 -
It works for some people to limit WHEN they eat. There may or may not be other health benefits. I have a cousin who swears by it, and after a couple of weeks w/ a 5 hour eating window her blood sugars and a bunch of other #s have improved and her doc has reduced some of her medication levels.
But I have no interest - simple calorie counting works well for me.7 -
For weight loss IF is just another way to manage calories. There is growing research though around additional health benefits of this way of eating not related specifically to weight.
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/intermittent-fasting-surprising-update-2018062914156
Did you read this paragraph in the blog you linked to:
'There’s a ton of incredibly promising intermittent fasting (IF) research done on fat rats. They lose weight, their blood pressure, cholesterol, and blood sugars improve… but they’re rats. Studies in humans, almost across the board, have shown that IF is safe and incredibly effective, but really no more effective than any other diet. In addition, many people find it difficult to fast.'
When they start reproducing the results in humans, I will start paying attention to the 'magic' of IF.
I read the entire thing. There is more research being done in humans now as also stated in the article. Did you read it? In addition to the benefits regarding insulin there have also been noted improvements in blood pressure - even for those with no weight change. While more research is needed this is promising.
The studies are still being conducted and we will learn more. I believe we should all be excited to learn new things as they are discovered. Don’t you?
I personally gave up IF because it does not work for me with my training schedule and I personally experienced no health benefits outside of easily maintaining my deficit. I won’t disregard the research happening and potential benefits being explored because of my own experience though.25 -
Personally, I don't get the whole IF concept. I eat my meals within an 8 hour window, but that's just my life. I eat when I'm hungry. I didn't pick that time frame as part of some master plan.
If calling their way of eating IF keeps someone on track and leads them to a healthier lifestyle, I'm all for it. 👍17 -
For weight loss IF is just another way to manage calories. There is growing research though around additional health benefits of this way of eating not related specifically to weight.
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/intermittent-fasting-surprising-update-2018062914156
Did you read this paragraph in the blog you linked to:
'There’s a ton of incredibly promising intermittent fasting (IF) research done on fat rats. They lose weight, their blood pressure, cholesterol, and blood sugars improve… but they’re rats. Studies in humans, almost across the board, have shown that IF is safe and incredibly effective, but really no more effective than any other diet. In addition, many people find it difficult to fast.'
When they start reproducing the results in humans, I will start paying attention to the 'magic' of IF.
I read the entire thing. There is more research being done in humans now as also stated in the article. Did you read it? In addition to the benefits regarding insulin there have also been noted improvements in blood pressure - even for those with no weight change. While more research is needed this is promising.
The studies are still being conducted and we will learn more. I believe we should all be excited to learn new things as they are discovered. Don’t you?
I personally gave up IF because it does not work for me with my training schedule and I personally experienced no health benefits outside of easily maintaining my deficit. I won’t disregard the research happening and potential benefits being explored because of my own experience though.
You should go back and re-read the last cited paper at the end of the blog - you know, the one that basically says that the only results that have been duplicated in humans can all be attributed to weight loss and not specifically to IF...
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S15504131183025359 -
For weight loss IF is just another way to manage calories. There is growing research though around additional health benefits of this way of eating not related specifically to weight.
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/intermittent-fasting-surprising-update-2018062914156
Did you read this paragraph in the blog you linked to:
'There’s a ton of incredibly promising intermittent fasting (IF) research done on fat rats. They lose weight, their blood pressure, cholesterol, and blood sugars improve… but they’re rats. Studies in humans, almost across the board, have shown that IF is safe and incredibly effective, but really no more effective than any other diet. In addition, many people find it difficult to fast.'
When they start reproducing the results in humans, I will start paying attention to the 'magic' of IF.
I gotta ask - how many of the links did you click on and read - because the majority were about human studies?
And while some were merely health benefits of losing weight - not all were.17 -
For weight loss IF is just another way to manage calories. There is growing research though around additional health benefits of this way of eating not related specifically to weight.
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/intermittent-fasting-surprising-update-2018062914156
Did you read this paragraph in the blog you linked to:
'There’s a ton of incredibly promising intermittent fasting (IF) research done on fat rats. They lose weight, their blood pressure, cholesterol, and blood sugars improve… but they’re rats. Studies in humans, almost across the board, have shown that IF is safe and incredibly effective, but really no more effective than any other diet. In addition, many people find it difficult to fast.'
When they start reproducing the results in humans, I will start paying attention to the 'magic' of IF.
I read the entire thing. There is more research being done in humans now as also stated in the article. Did you read it? In addition to the benefits regarding insulin there have also been noted improvements in blood pressure - even for those with no weight change. While more research is needed this is promising.
The studies are still being conducted and we will learn more. I believe we should all be excited to learn new things as they are discovered. Don’t you?
I personally gave up IF because it does not work for me with my training schedule and I personally experienced no health benefits outside of easily maintaining my deficit. I won’t disregard the research happening and potential benefits being explored because of my own experience though.
You should go back and re-read the last cited paper at the end of the blog - you know, the one that basically says that the only results that have been duplicated in humans can all be attributed to weight loss and not specifically to IF...
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1550413118302535
Hold on now - did you read that link?
"We demonstrate for the first time in humans that eTRF improves some aspects of cardiometabolic health and that IF’s effects are not solely due to weight loss."
You totally read that wrong - since your statement is *kitten*-backwards of what they say.18 -
In a person with no insulin issues IF can help a person lose weight which has a load of potential health benefits. If a person loses weight without IF or Keto they still can have a load of potential health benefits.
To date all the promising research is only promising in rats. If you have a pet rat and want it to live longer than IF is a good thing to try.
No benefit other than improved insulin issues has been proven in humans.In a person with no insulin issues IF can help a person lose weight which has a load of potential health benefits. If a person loses weight without IF or Keto they still can have a load of potential health benefits.
To date all the promising research is only promising in rats. If you have a pet rat and want it to live longer than IF is a good thing to try.
No benefit other than improved insulin issues has been proven in humans.
“Based on this, researchers from the University of Alabama conducted a study with a small group of obese men with prediabetes. They compared a form of intermittent fasting called “early time-restricted feeding,” where all meals were fit into an early eight-hour period of the day (7 am to 3 pm), or spread out over 12 hours (between 7 am and 7 pm). Both groups maintained their weight (did not gain or lose) but after five weeks, the eight-hours group had dramatically lower insulin levels and significantly improved insulin sensitivity, as well as significantly lower blood pressure. The best part? The eight-hours group also had significantly decreased appetite. They weren’t starving.”
This is from the Harvard article posted in my original comment. More research is being conducted regularly and we are learning more.
Novus specified "other than improved insulin issues". Your study is about insulin issues in obese prediabetic men. Unless I'm misreading something.11 -
I do IF because it helps me control the calories and my hunger - plus I enjoy training in a fasted state much more than in a fed state. I'm not aware of any detriments (at least not to me) and if by any chance IF does have health benefits, what's not to like?29
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raven56706 wrote: »On my friends side, he says Intermittent Fasting has tons of benefits and doesnt't have to be done with Keto.
I have said " if it doesnt have anything to do with Keto, why fast? just stick to the calories and thats it."
i mean correct me if i am wrong (i checked google and forget it. tons of "experts" ) but IF is just a way to restrict your calories thats it. say you eat 1800 calories a day for weight loss. if you eat 200 calories at lets say 8am, then you have the ENTIRE day to eat 1600. You don't have to wait but just be mindful of your eating.
What i am trying to say is there is no magic to it correct?
IF does not have to be done with Keto.
Why would you have to do the 2 methods together?
Both are claimed by many to be inherently calorie restricting without counting.
People on both have discovered you can overeat still though - but it may help or make it easier to not have to log.15 -
For weight loss IF is just another way to manage calories. There is growing research though around additional health benefits of this way of eating not related specifically to weight.
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/intermittent-fasting-surprising-update-2018062914156
Did you read this paragraph in the blog you linked to:
'There’s a ton of incredibly promising intermittent fasting (IF) research done on fat rats. They lose weight, their blood pressure, cholesterol, and blood sugars improve… but they’re rats. Studies in humans, almost across the board, have shown that IF is safe and incredibly effective, but really no more effective than any other diet. In addition, many people find it difficult to fast.'
When they start reproducing the results in humans, I will start paying attention to the 'magic' of IF.
I read the entire thing. There is more research being done in humans now as also stated in the article. Did you read it? In addition to the benefits regarding insulin there have also been noted improvements in blood pressure - even for those with no weight change. While more research is needed this is promising.
The studies are still being conducted and we will learn more. I believe we should all be excited to learn new things as they are discovered. Don’t you?
I personally gave up IF because it does not work for me with my training schedule and I personally experienced no health benefits outside of easily maintaining my deficit. I won’t disregard the research happening and potential benefits being explored because of my own experience though.
You should go back and re-read the last cited paper at the end of the blog - you know, the one that basically says that the only results that have been duplicated in humans can all be attributed to weight loss and not specifically to IF...
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1550413118302535
Hold on now - did you read that link?
"We demonstrate for the first time in humans that eTRF improves some aspects of cardiometabolic health and that IF’s effects are not solely due to weight loss."
You totally read that wrong - since your statement is *kitten*-backwards of what they say.
Really... (from the last link):
'However, it was unknown whether these benefits are solely due to weight loss. Many have speculated that IF improves cardiometabolic health more than conventional dieting, even when matched for weight loss. Indeed, data in rodents suggest that IF improves cardiometabolic endpoints even when food intake and/or body weight is matched to the control group (Anson et al., 2003, Belkacemi et al., 2012, Hatori et al., 2012, Olsen et al., 2017, Sherman et al., 2012, Woodie et al., 2017, Wu et al., 2011, Zarrinpar et al., 2014). However, preliminary evidence in humans suggests that the benefits of IF are due mostly or only to weight loss (Halberg et al., 2005, Harvie et al., 2011, Soeters et al., 2009, Trepanowski et al., 2017b). Initially, a single-arm, 2-week trial reported that IF improves insulin sensitivity even when participants are approximately weight stable (Halberg et al., 2005), but the study was uncontrolled. Later, two better controlled, randomized crossover trials reported that IF did not improve glucose or lipid metabolism (Carlson et al., 2007, Soeters et al., 2009, Stote et al., 2007). More recently, the longest IF study in humans reported that adults who practiced ADMF for 1 year were not any healthier than conventional dieters who lost a similar amount of weight, yet they had a higher attrition rate (Trepanowski et al., 2017b).'8 -
For weight loss IF is just another way to manage calories. There is growing research though around additional health benefits of this way of eating not related specifically to weight.
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/intermittent-fasting-surprising-update-2018062914156
Did you read this paragraph in the blog you linked to:
'There’s a ton of incredibly promising intermittent fasting (IF) research done on fat rats. They lose weight, their blood pressure, cholesterol, and blood sugars improve… but they’re rats. Studies in humans, almost across the board, have shown that IF is safe and incredibly effective, but really no more effective than any other diet. In addition, many people find it difficult to fast.'
When they start reproducing the results in humans, I will start paying attention to the 'magic' of IF.
I read the entire thing. There is more research being done in humans now as also stated in the article. Did you read it? In addition to the benefits regarding insulin there have also been noted improvements in blood pressure - even for those with no weight change. While more research is needed this is promising.
The studies are still being conducted and we will learn more. I believe we should all be excited to learn new things as they are discovered. Don’t you?
I personally gave up IF because it does not work for me with my training schedule and I personally experienced no health benefits outside of easily maintaining my deficit. I won’t disregard the research happening and potential benefits being explored because of my own experience though.
You should go back and re-read the last cited paper at the end of the blog - you know, the one that basically says that the only results that have been duplicated in humans can all be attributed to weight loss and not specifically to IF...
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1550413118302535
Hold on now - did you read that link?
"We demonstrate for the first time in humans that eTRF improves some aspects of cardiometabolic health and that IF’s effects are not solely due to weight loss."
You totally read that wrong - since your statement is *kitten*-backwards of what they say.
Really... (from the last link):
'However, it was unknown whether these benefits are solely due to weight loss. Many have speculated that IF improves cardiometabolic health more than conventional dieting, even when matched for weight loss. Indeed, data in rodents suggest that IF improves cardiometabolic endpoints even when food intake and/or body weight is matched to the control group (Anson et al., 2003, Belkacemi et al., 2012, Hatori et al., 2012, Olsen et al., 2017, Sherman et al., 2012, Woodie et al., 2017, Wu et al., 2011, Zarrinpar et al., 2014). However, preliminary evidence in humans suggests that the benefits of IF are due mostly or only to weight loss (Halberg et al., 2005, Harvie et al., 2011, Soeters et al., 2009, Trepanowski et al., 2017b). Initially, a single-arm, 2-week trial reported that IF improves insulin sensitivity even when participants are approximately weight stable (Halberg et al., 2005), but the study was uncontrolled. Later, two better controlled, randomized crossover trials reported that IF did not improve glucose or lipid metabolism (Carlson et al., 2007, Soeters et al., 2009, Stote et al., 2007). More recently, the longest IF study in humans reported that adults who practiced ADMF for 1 year were not any healthier than conventional dieters who lost a similar amount of weight, yet they had a higher attrition rate (Trepanowski et al., 2017b).'
Ok - so they are commenting on other studies.
Did you actually read the study YOU linked?
"During the intervention phases, participants were required to eat only food provided by study staff, were fed enough food to maintain their weight, and ate all meals while being monitored by study staff. Furthermore, food intake was matched on a meal-by-meal basis across the two arms to eliminate any confounding effects from differences in food intake or meal frequency. "
As the article starts out with - they did NOT lose weight.13 -
For weight loss IF is just another way to manage calories. There is growing research though around additional health benefits of this way of eating not related specifically to weight.
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/intermittent-fasting-surprising-update-2018062914156
Did you read this paragraph in the blog you linked to:
'There’s a ton of incredibly promising intermittent fasting (IF) research done on fat rats. They lose weight, their blood pressure, cholesterol, and blood sugars improve… but they’re rats. Studies in humans, almost across the board, have shown that IF is safe and incredibly effective, but really no more effective than any other diet. In addition, many people find it difficult to fast.'
When they start reproducing the results in humans, I will start paying attention to the 'magic' of IF.
I read the entire thing. There is more research being done in humans now as also stated in the article. Did you read it? In addition to the benefits regarding insulin there have also been noted improvements in blood pressure - even for those with no weight change. While more research is needed this is promising.
The studies are still being conducted and we will learn more. I believe we should all be excited to learn new things as they are discovered. Don’t you?
I personally gave up IF because it does not work for me with my training schedule and I personally experienced no health benefits outside of easily maintaining my deficit. I won’t disregard the research happening and potential benefits being explored because of my own experience though.
You should go back and re-read the last cited paper at the end of the blog - you know, the one that basically says that the only results that have been duplicated in humans can all be attributed to weight loss and not specifically to IF...
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1550413118302535
Hold on now - did you read that link?
"We demonstrate for the first time in humans that eTRF improves some aspects of cardiometabolic health and that IF’s effects are not solely due to weight loss."
You totally read that wrong - since your statement is *kitten*-backwards of what they say.
Really... (from the last link):
'However, it was unknown whether these benefits are solely due to weight loss. Many have speculated that IF improves cardiometabolic health more than conventional dieting, even when matched for weight loss. Indeed, data in rodents suggest that IF improves cardiometabolic endpoints even when food intake and/or body weight is matched to the control group (Anson et al., 2003, Belkacemi et al., 2012, Hatori et al., 2012, Olsen et al., 2017, Sherman et al., 2012, Woodie et al., 2017, Wu et al., 2011, Zarrinpar et al., 2014). However, preliminary evidence in humans suggests that the benefits of IF are due mostly or only to weight loss (Halberg et al., 2005, Harvie et al., 2011, Soeters et al., 2009, Trepanowski et al., 2017b). Initially, a single-arm, 2-week trial reported that IF improves insulin sensitivity even when participants are approximately weight stable (Halberg et al., 2005), but the study was uncontrolled. Later, two better controlled, randomized crossover trials reported that IF did not improve glucose or lipid metabolism (Carlson et al., 2007, Soeters et al., 2009, Stote et al., 2007). More recently, the longest IF study in humans reported that adults who practiced ADMF for 1 year were not any healthier than conventional dieters who lost a similar amount of weight, yet they had a higher attrition rate (Trepanowski et al., 2017b).'
Ok - so they are commenting on other studies.
Did you actually read the study YOU linked?
"During the intervention phases, participants were required to eat only food provided by study staff, were fed enough food to maintain their weight, and ate all meals while being monitored by study staff. Furthermore, food intake was matched on a meal-by-meal basis across the two arms to eliminate any confounding effects from differences in food intake or meal frequency. "
As the article starts out with - they did NOT lose weight.
It is still only relevant to people with insulin resistance. Since IR can cause hypertension it is no surprise that blood pressure might also improve regardless of weight loss.
5 -
For weight loss IF is just another way to manage calories. There is growing research though around additional health benefits of this way of eating not related specifically to weight.
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/intermittent-fasting-surprising-update-2018062914156
Did you read this paragraph in the blog you linked to:
'There’s a ton of incredibly promising intermittent fasting (IF) research done on fat rats. They lose weight, their blood pressure, cholesterol, and blood sugars improve… but they’re rats. Studies in humans, almost across the board, have shown that IF is safe and incredibly effective, but really no more effective than any other diet. In addition, many people find it difficult to fast.'
When they start reproducing the results in humans, I will start paying attention to the 'magic' of IF.
I read the entire thing. There is more research being done in humans now as also stated in the article. Did you read it? In addition to the benefits regarding insulin there have also been noted improvements in blood pressure - even for those with no weight change. While more research is needed this is promising.
The studies are still being conducted and we will learn more. I believe we should all be excited to learn new things as they are discovered. Don’t you?
I personally gave up IF because it does not work for me with my training schedule and I personally experienced no health benefits outside of easily maintaining my deficit. I won’t disregard the research happening and potential benefits being explored because of my own experience though.
You should go back and re-read the last cited paper at the end of the blog - you know, the one that basically says that the only results that have been duplicated in humans can all be attributed to weight loss and not specifically to IF...
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1550413118302535
Hold on now - did you read that link?
"We demonstrate for the first time in humans that eTRF improves some aspects of cardiometabolic health and that IF’s effects are not solely due to weight loss."
You totally read that wrong - since your statement is *kitten*-backwards of what they say.
Really... (from the last link):
'However, it was unknown whether these benefits are solely due to weight loss. Many have speculated that IF improves cardiometabolic health more than conventional dieting, even when matched for weight loss. Indeed, data in rodents suggest that IF improves cardiometabolic endpoints even when food intake and/or body weight is matched to the control group (Anson et al., 2003, Belkacemi et al., 2012, Hatori et al., 2012, Olsen et al., 2017, Sherman et al., 2012, Woodie et al., 2017, Wu et al., 2011, Zarrinpar et al., 2014). However, preliminary evidence in humans suggests that the benefits of IF are due mostly or only to weight loss (Halberg et al., 2005, Harvie et al., 2011, Soeters et al., 2009, Trepanowski et al., 2017b). Initially, a single-arm, 2-week trial reported that IF improves insulin sensitivity even when participants are approximately weight stable (Halberg et al., 2005), but the study was uncontrolled. Later, two better controlled, randomized crossover trials reported that IF did not improve glucose or lipid metabolism (Carlson et al., 2007, Soeters et al., 2009, Stote et al., 2007). More recently, the longest IF study in humans reported that adults who practiced ADMF for 1 year were not any healthier than conventional dieters who lost a similar amount of weight, yet they had a higher attrition rate (Trepanowski et al., 2017b).'
Ok - so they are commenting on other studies.
Did you actually read the study YOU linked?
"During the intervention phases, participants were required to eat only food provided by study staff, were fed enough food to maintain their weight, and ate all meals while being monitored by study staff. Furthermore, food intake was matched on a meal-by-meal basis across the two arms to eliminate any confounding effects from differences in food intake or meal frequency. "
As the article starts out with - they did NOT lose weight.
It is still only relevant to people with insulin resistance. Since IR can cause hypertension it is no surprise that blood pressure might also improve regardless of weight loss.
Very true, and it'll be interesting what other side benefits that aren't so quick to show up might be possible for longer run studies, and perhaps with more participants.
I've never once in all my annual blood tests ever been given test for IR, fasted blood sugar looked good - end of story.
I wonder how many people like me have a level of IR that requires a strong request for A1C but never find out since neither Dr or patient think to ask for it (I did almost have to demand it). Patient could easily chalk symptoms up to other things going on. Dr could treat individual symptoms like that blood pressure.
So how many in society benefit from dietary restrictions like this or potential keto benefits, more than just the weight loss would provide, or faster than what the weight loss would provide on it's own. But are unknown to be IR and that's why they saw such improvements in health factors.10
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