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Is promoting weight loss dangerous?
Replies
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Again source? You don't need to have an eating disorder to be suicidal.-Eating disorders are the deadliest of all mental illnesses due to high rates of suicide and permanent damage to internal organs.
With regards to your wanting a source for the bit of the op's post that said, "Eating disorders are the deadliest of all mental illnesses due to high rates of suicide and permanent damage to internal organs.", this is actually very easy to back up:
https://www.nimh.nih.gov/about/directors/thomas-insel/blog/2012/spotlight-on-eating-disorders.shtml
It's one of the only things (if not the only thing) in the first post that can easily be backed up. And yes, of course you don't have to have an eating disorder to be suicidal. Being suicidal is a symptom found in a wide number of mental illnesses, but that doesn't mean that all mental illnesses have the same death rates or that the cause of death related to a mental illness is always suicide.11 -
OP's implication seems to be that eating disorders are a common/likely result from promoting weight loss. AFAIK that's ill-founded, especially where the implication seems to be extended to believing that promoting weight loss commonly leads to eating disorders and eating disorders lead to suicide/organ damage, such that promoting weight loss = promoting suicide and organ damage.
The relative weight (no pun intended) of weight loss benefits vs. weight loss risk is askew there. Most people who try to lose weight, don't lose weight (for long) . . . that, to me, seems to be the common case, not mental illness and physical damage or death. On the other side of the situation, obesity creates clear health risks (and hinders quality of life for most obese people, whether they realize/admit it, or not).
I'm not intending to minimize the seriousness of eating disorders (or their incidence level), and I do think that our current culture around weight/appearance creates extra risk for people who might already be at risk for eating disorders. But it's not generally rational to base broad policy on the lower-incidence end-cases, when the more statistically common risk is also very serious (in this case, obesity-related health problems and earlier mortality).
OP asks "Or would it be more responsible to encourage people to eat a balanced diet and exercise without looking at the scale?"
Personally, I think we should (and do, in a governmental advocacy and medical practice sense) largely encourage people to eat a balanced diet and exercise, and the positive results have been negligible. I don't expect higher-magnitude results (positive or negative) from encouraging people to lose weight, and statistics seem to bear that out.
Much of what I'd consider bad-influence weight loss "encouragement" comes from hucksters and celebrities and click-bait seekers, and "we" (i.e., general responsible society, as instantiated in institutions like government and medical practice) have very little control or influence over that.
It would do little in a positive direction if governmental sources, the medical establishment, and health promotion organizations** stopped advocating achieving a healthy weight via a balanced diet and exercise, and started advocating just the balanced diet and exercise with no attention to the scale.
** Thinking of organizations like American Cancer Society, American Heart Association, and other nations' or international analogs.11 -
Again source? You don't need to have an eating disorder to be suicidal.-Eating disorders are the deadliest of all mental illnesses due to high rates of suicide and permanent damage to internal organs.
With regards to your wanting a source for the bit of the op's post that said, "Eating disorders are the deadliest of all mental illnesses due to high rates of suicide and permanent damage to internal organs.", this is actually very easy to back up:
https://www.nimh.nih.gov/about/directors/thomas-insel/blog/2012/spotlight-on-eating-disorders.shtml
It's one of the only things (if not the only thing) in the first post that can easily be backed up. And yes, of course you don't have to have an eating disorder to be suicidal. Being suicidal is a symptom found in a wide number of mental illnesses, but that doesn't mean that all mental illnesses have the same death rates or that the cause of death related to a mental illness is always suicide.
I agree. I think clinical depression is far more dangerous. I just spent 8hrs in a class discussing clinical depression in the context of isolation....5 -
Apparently OP didn't really want to debate? :ohwell:9
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Well @quiksylver296 some us are just really good master debaters! 😏2
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bathsheba_c wrote: »Consider this:
-The human body has evolved to favor weight gain in order to avoid starvation.
-Calorie deprivation experiments have shown that even fairly small reductions in food intake can cause psychological distress, including hoarding behaviors.
-Eating disorders are the deadliest of all mental illnesses due to high rates of suicide and permanent damage to internal organs.
-Not eating enough stressed the body, which weakens the immune system and damages the cardiovascular system.
-Almost no one who loses weight keeps it off long-term.
-Being “overweight” after a certain age is protective against early death.
In light of the above, is it actually responsible to promote weight loss? Or would it be more responsible to encourage people to eat a balanced diet and exercise without looking at the scale?
One can promote safe and healthy weight loss. I lost 40 Lbs and didn't experience any of what you're talking about. I've more or less maintained my weight for nearly 7 years.
In regards to your last comment, I don't think it's necessarily "overweight" that is protective, but rather having a bit higher BF%...you can be at a healthy weight and not super lean. I'm at a healthy BF%, but certainly not super lean...I easily have the fat stores to sustain me for awhile should something happen.5 -
moonangel12 wrote: »I currently live in WV - the obesity rate is ridiculous here! It makes me so sad to see so much of the population merely existing in this world, not living...
so you're suggesting people who are obese are not living their lives? That's a really ignorant statement.6 -
I think providing zero context with your points is dangerous.6
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psychod787 wrote: »
Again source? You don't need to have an eating disorder to be suicidal.-Eating disorders are the deadliest of all mental illnesses due to high rates of suicide and permanent damage to internal organs.
With regards to your wanting a source for the bit of the op's post that said, "Eating disorders are the deadliest of all mental illnesses due to high rates of suicide and permanent damage to internal organs.", this is actually very easy to back up:
https://www.nimh.nih.gov/about/directors/thomas-insel/blog/2012/spotlight-on-eating-disorders.shtml
It's one of the only things (if not the only thing) in the first post that can easily be backed up. And yes, of course you don't have to have an eating disorder to be suicidal. Being suicidal is a symptom found in a wide number of mental illnesses, but that doesn't mean that all mental illnesses have the same death rates or that the cause of death related to a mental illness is always suicide.
I agree. I think clinical depression is far more dangerous. I just spent 8hrs in a class discussing clinical depression in the context of isolation....
As someone who has major depression disorder and lives with quite a lot of suicidal ideation, I don't know if I believe depression more dangerous than the broad umbrella term that is eating disorders. Statistically nothing is telling me that it's any more dangerous in terms of the death rate, and I skimmed an article this morning that I'm pretty sure pointed out that the death rate for eating disorders is under inflated. That said, I would welcome research that opposes that (and I do have access to various academic journal subscriptions).
What the OP was pointing out in their point about the damage to internal organs is a pretty big deal and of course isolation is common in various eating disorders as well.7 -
psychod787 wrote: »I wonder if anyone who wants to take cues from human evolution would be so quick to do so if they had to survive somewhere harsh without clothing or tools.
People who forget the past, are bound to repeat it.... looking back can help us look to the future. While we can not live like cave people. We can look at hunter gather groups and see how they live and take certain things and implement them.
I did not follow any of this. I definitely do not see how the "People who forget the past" line has anything to do with anthropological studies. I have always understood that it was talking about lessons we should learn as a society about social injustices and diplomatic disasters.
I think the lessons we need to learn do not need a wayback machine that goes that far back. Pre-industrial is much more recent and much better documented. Plenty of things to learn there.6 -
psychod787 wrote: »I wonder if anyone who wants to take cues from human evolution would be so quick to do so if they had to survive somewhere harsh without clothing or tools.
People who forget the past, are bound to repeat it.... looking back can help us look to the future. While we can not live like cave people. We can look at hunter gather groups and see how they live and take certain things and implement them.
I did not follow any of this. I definitely do not see how the "People who forget the past" line has anything to do with anthropological studies. I have always understood that it was talking about lessons we should learn as a society about social injustices and diplomatic disasters.
I think the lessons we need to learn do not need a wayback machine that goes that far back. Pre-industrial is much more recent and much better documented. Plenty of things to learn there.
Plus it's not like natural selection with respect to diet/movement stopped happening tens of thousands of years ago. You could make an argument that modern medicine has monkey-wrenched consequences a bit, but that's quite recent.
It's been too long ago to remember what academic expertise the people were, but it was the right one (some anthropology subspecialty, probably), having a science-based discussion about the paleo diet. Not only did the modern "paleo diet" not align with what actually humans ate in that era, but the experts' contention was that humans had had way, way more than the necessary minimum time to adapt to grains, since the advent of farming. (Note: Not saying no one should do paleo, if it floats their boat, just that the theoretical justification is shaky.)
Like it or not, our food systems are what they are now. We can adapt the systems to us by voting with our dollars for different choices, or adapt our behavior to them . . . by eating appropriate amounts of Lean Cuisine, protein powder, frozen veg and Fiber One bars, or something like that, I guess.
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sammidelvecchio wrote: »moonangel12 wrote: »I currently live in WV - the obesity rate is ridiculous here! It makes me so sad to see so much of the population merely existing in this world, not living...
so you're suggesting people who are obese are not living their lives? That's a really ignorant statement.
No, not all... but so many that truly are at a point where they can’t function. I see it in my own family. So many people who say “I can’t” due to their physical limitations. I have family that have finally gotten to the stage in life where the could travel, like they have always wanted, but they can’t due to obesity. Someone on my husband’s side who spent the last few years of her life mostly bedridden - there were other factors, but her weight was just too much for the state her knees were in. She had been told for years she needed to lose weight. Her daughter is heading down the same path, but is taking some steps toward a healthier lifestyle.
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psychod787 wrote: »I wonder if anyone who wants to take cues from human evolution would be so quick to do so if they had to survive somewhere harsh without clothing or tools.
People who forget the past, are bound to repeat it.... looking back can help us look to the future. While we can not live like cave people. We can look at hunter gather groups and see how they live and take certain things and implement them.
I did not follow any of this. I definitely do not see how the "People who forget the past" line has anything to do with anthropological studies. I have always understood that it was talking about lessons we should learn as a society about social injustices and diplomatic disasters.
I think the lessons we need to learn do not need a wayback machine that goes that far back. Pre-industrial is much more recent and much better documented. Plenty of things to learn there.
Plus it's not like natural selection with respect to diet/movement stopped happening tens of thousands of years ago. You could make an argument that modern medicine has monkey-wrenched consequences a bit, but that's quite recent.
It's been too long ago to remember what academic expertise the people were, but it was the right one (some anthropology subspecialty, probably), having a science-based discussion about the paleo diet. Not only did the modern "paleo diet" not align with what actually humans ate in that era, but the experts' contention was that humans had had way, way more than the necessary minimum time to adapt to grains, since the advent of farming. (Note: Not saying no one should do paleo, if it floats their boat, just that the theoretical justification is shaky.)
Like it or not, our food systems are what they are now. We can adapt the systems to us by voting with our dollars for different choices, or adapt our behavior to them . . . by eating appropriate amounts of Lean Cuisine, protein powder, frozen veg and Fiber One bars, or something like that, I guess.
Every word of this. In the context of this discussion and in a much broader sense too.2 -
psychod787 wrote: »
Again source? You don't need to have an eating disorder to be suicidal.-Eating disorders are the deadliest of all mental illnesses due to high rates of suicide and permanent damage to internal organs.
With regards to your wanting a source for the bit of the op's post that said, "Eating disorders are the deadliest of all mental illnesses due to high rates of suicide and permanent damage to internal organs.", this is actually very easy to back up:
https://www.nimh.nih.gov/about/directors/thomas-insel/blog/2012/spotlight-on-eating-disorders.shtml
It's one of the only things (if not the only thing) in the first post that can easily be backed up. And yes, of course you don't have to have an eating disorder to be suicidal. Being suicidal is a symptom found in a wide number of mental illnesses, but that doesn't mean that all mental illnesses have the same death rates or that the cause of death related to a mental illness is always suicide.
I agree. I think clinical depression is far more dangerous. I just spent 8hrs in a class discussing clinical depression in the context of isolation....
You say that as though the overlap between EDs and clinical depression is the null set, which does not at all appear to be the case.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3085695/3 -
psychod787 wrote: »I wonder if anyone who wants to take cues from human evolution would be so quick to do so if they had to survive somewhere harsh without clothing or tools.
People who forget the past, are bound to repeat it.... looking back can help us look to the future. While we can not live like cave people. We can look at hunter gather groups and see how they live and take certain things and implement them.
I did not follow any of this. I definitely do not see how the "People who forget the past" line has anything to do with anthropological studies. I have always understood that it was talking about lessons we should learn as a society about social injustices and diplomatic disasters.
I think the lessons we need to learn do not need a wayback machine that goes that far back. Pre-industrial is much more recent and much better documented. Plenty of things to learn there.
Well... let's not make the same mistakes that led to our current issues. Thus eating to many calories and not moving. While weight had been on the rise since the turn of the 1900's, it really took off in the 70's and 80's. Corresponding with the rise of more sedentary jobs and lifestyle and increased intakes of well... foods that we ate too much of. If we look back in history, does not even have to be thousands of years ago, eat more whole foods and move a bit more. That's all... shoulders of giants stuff...0 -
psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »I wonder if anyone who wants to take cues from human evolution would be so quick to do so if they had to survive somewhere harsh without clothing or tools.
People who forget the past, are bound to repeat it.... looking back can help us look to the future. While we can not live like cave people. We can look at hunter gather groups and see how they live and take certain things and implement them.
I did not follow any of this. I definitely do not see how the "People who forget the past" line has anything to do with anthropological studies. I have always understood that it was talking about lessons we should learn as a society about social injustices and diplomatic disasters.
I think the lessons we need to learn do not need a wayback machine that goes that far back. Pre-industrial is much more recent and much better documented. Plenty of things to learn there.
Well... let's not make the same mistakes that led to our current issues. Thus eating to many calories and not moving. While weight had been on the rise since the turn of the 1900's, it really took off in the 70's and 80's. Corresponding with the rise of more sedentary jobs and lifestyle and increased intakes of well... foods that we ate too much of. If we look back in history, does not even have to be thousands of years ago, eat more whole foods and move a bit more. That's all... shoulders of giants stuff...
Actually when it comes to obesity we are making the history that someone else should hopefully learn from now. This era is the cautionary tale. I believe the important lesson for future generations is that solving obesity is prevention.4 -
moonangel12 wrote: »sammidelvecchio wrote: »moonangel12 wrote: »I currently live in WV - the obesity rate is ridiculous here! It makes me so sad to see so much of the population merely existing in this world, not living...
so you're suggesting people who are obese are not living their lives? That's a really ignorant statement.
No, not all... but so many that truly are at a point where they can’t function. I see it in my own family. So many people who say “I can’t” due to their physical limitations. I have family that have finally gotten to the stage in life where the could travel, like they have always wanted, but they can’t due to obesity. Someone on my husband’s side who spent the last few years of her life mostly bedridden - there were other factors, but her weight was just too much for the state her knees were in. She had been told for years she needed to lose weight. Her daughter is heading down the same path, but is taking some steps toward a healthier lifestyle.
That makes a lot more sense than saying obese people are just existing. Thanks for the context.
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psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »I wonder if anyone who wants to take cues from human evolution would be so quick to do so if they had to survive somewhere harsh without clothing or tools.
People who forget the past, are bound to repeat it.... looking back can help us look to the future. While we can not live like cave people. We can look at hunter gather groups and see how they live and take certain things and implement them.
I did not follow any of this. I definitely do not see how the "People who forget the past" line has anything to do with anthropological studies. I have always understood that it was talking about lessons we should learn as a society about social injustices and diplomatic disasters.
I think the lessons we need to learn do not need a wayback machine that goes that far back. Pre-industrial is much more recent and much better documented. Plenty of things to learn there.
Well... let's not make the same mistakes that led to our current issues. Thus eating to many calories and not moving. While weight had been on the rise since the turn of the 1900's, it really took off in the 70's and 80's. Corresponding with the rise of more sedentary jobs and lifestyle and increased intakes of well... foods that we ate too much of. If we look back in history, does not even have to be thousands of years ago, eat more whole foods and move a bit more. That's all... shoulders of giants stuff...
Actually when it comes to obesity we are making the history that someone else should hopefully learn from now. This era is the cautionary tale. I believe the important lesson for future generations is that solving obesity is prevention.
Exactly, but the "cure" we develop today is the prevention of tomorrow. I dont want to play Nero....0 -
psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »I wonder if anyone who wants to take cues from human evolution would be so quick to do so if they had to survive somewhere harsh without clothing or tools.
People who forget the past, are bound to repeat it.... looking back can help us look to the future. While we can not live like cave people. We can look at hunter gather groups and see how they live and take certain things and implement them.
I did not follow any of this. I definitely do not see how the "People who forget the past" line has anything to do with anthropological studies. I have always understood that it was talking about lessons we should learn as a society about social injustices and diplomatic disasters.
I think the lessons we need to learn do not need a wayback machine that goes that far back. Pre-industrial is much more recent and much better documented. Plenty of things to learn there.
Well... let's not make the same mistakes that led to our current issues. Thus eating to many calories and not moving. While weight had been on the rise since the turn of the 1900's, it really took off in the 70's and 80's. Corresponding with the rise of more sedentary jobs and lifestyle and increased intakes of well... foods that we ate too much of. If we look back in history, does not even have to be thousands of years ago, eat more whole foods and move a bit more. That's all... shoulders of giants stuff...
Actually when it comes to obesity we are making the history that someone else should hopefully learn from now. This era is the cautionary tale. I believe the important lesson for future generations is that solving obesity is prevention.
Exactly, but the "cure" we develop today is the prevention of tomorrow. I dont want to play Nero....
The cure for the next generation is education. Require juniors in high school to take a health class on how to properly manage their weight. Warn them that if their life changes from an active to less active stage they need to eat less. People like me could give guest lectures about how much obesity once robbed me of my freedom.
The cure for this generation is still education but cutting through all the noise is very difficult.3 -
psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »I wonder if anyone who wants to take cues from human evolution would be so quick to do so if they had to survive somewhere harsh without clothing or tools.
People who forget the past, are bound to repeat it.... looking back can help us look to the future. While we can not live like cave people. We can look at hunter gather groups and see how they live and take certain things and implement them.
I did not follow any of this. I definitely do not see how the "People who forget the past" line has anything to do with anthropological studies. I have always understood that it was talking about lessons we should learn as a society about social injustices and diplomatic disasters.
I think the lessons we need to learn do not need a wayback machine that goes that far back. Pre-industrial is much more recent and much better documented. Plenty of things to learn there.
Well... let's not make the same mistakes that led to our current issues. Thus eating to many calories and not moving. While weight had been on the rise since the turn of the 1900's, it really took off in the 70's and 80's. Corresponding with the rise of more sedentary jobs and lifestyle and increased intakes of well... foods that we ate too much of. If we look back in history, does not even have to be thousands of years ago, eat more whole foods and move a bit more. That's all... shoulders of giants stuff...
Actually when it comes to obesity we are making the history that someone else should hopefully learn from now. This era is the cautionary tale. I believe the important lesson for future generations is that solving obesity is prevention.
Exactly, but the "cure" we develop today is the prevention of tomorrow. I dont want to play Nero....
The cure for the next generation is education. Require juniors in high school to take a health class on how to properly manage their weight. Warn them that if their life changes from an active to less active stage they need to eat less. People like me could give guest lectures about how much obesity once robbed me of my freedom.
The cure for this generation is still education but cutting through all the noise is very difficult.
While I agree that education IS important. The USDA tried to educated people years ago and how did they respond?2
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