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Is promoting weight loss dangerous?
Replies
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psychod787 wrote: »I wonder if anyone who wants to take cues from human evolution would be so quick to do so if they had to survive somewhere harsh without clothing or tools.
People who forget the past, are bound to repeat it.... looking back can help us look to the future. While we can not live like cave people. We can look at hunter gather groups and see how they live and take certain things and implement them.
I did not follow any of this. I definitely do not see how the "People who forget the past" line has anything to do with anthropological studies. I have always understood that it was talking about lessons we should learn as a society about social injustices and diplomatic disasters.
I think the lessons we need to learn do not need a wayback machine that goes that far back. Pre-industrial is much more recent and much better documented. Plenty of things to learn there.
Plus it's not like natural selection with respect to diet/movement stopped happening tens of thousands of years ago. You could make an argument that modern medicine has monkey-wrenched consequences a bit, but that's quite recent.
It's been too long ago to remember what academic expertise the people were, but it was the right one (some anthropology subspecialty, probably), having a science-based discussion about the paleo diet. Not only did the modern "paleo diet" not align with what actually humans ate in that era, but the experts' contention was that humans had had way, way more than the necessary minimum time to adapt to grains, since the advent of farming. (Note: Not saying no one should do paleo, if it floats their boat, just that the theoretical justification is shaky.)
Like it or not, our food systems are what they are now. We can adapt the systems to us by voting with our dollars for different choices, or adapt our behavior to them . . . by eating appropriate amounts of Lean Cuisine, protein powder, frozen veg and Fiber One bars, or something like that, I guess.
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sammidelvecchio wrote: »moonangel12 wrote: »I currently live in WV - the obesity rate is ridiculous here! It makes me so sad to see so much of the population merely existing in this world, not living...
so you're suggesting people who are obese are not living their lives? That's a really ignorant statement.
No, not all... but so many that truly are at a point where they can’t function. I see it in my own family. So many people who say “I can’t” due to their physical limitations. I have family that have finally gotten to the stage in life where the could travel, like they have always wanted, but they can’t due to obesity. Someone on my husband’s side who spent the last few years of her life mostly bedridden - there were other factors, but her weight was just too much for the state her knees were in. She had been told for years she needed to lose weight. Her daughter is heading down the same path, but is taking some steps toward a healthier lifestyle.
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psychod787 wrote: »I wonder if anyone who wants to take cues from human evolution would be so quick to do so if they had to survive somewhere harsh without clothing or tools.
People who forget the past, are bound to repeat it.... looking back can help us look to the future. While we can not live like cave people. We can look at hunter gather groups and see how they live and take certain things and implement them.
I did not follow any of this. I definitely do not see how the "People who forget the past" line has anything to do with anthropological studies. I have always understood that it was talking about lessons we should learn as a society about social injustices and diplomatic disasters.
I think the lessons we need to learn do not need a wayback machine that goes that far back. Pre-industrial is much more recent and much better documented. Plenty of things to learn there.
Plus it's not like natural selection with respect to diet/movement stopped happening tens of thousands of years ago. You could make an argument that modern medicine has monkey-wrenched consequences a bit, but that's quite recent.
It's been too long ago to remember what academic expertise the people were, but it was the right one (some anthropology subspecialty, probably), having a science-based discussion about the paleo diet. Not only did the modern "paleo diet" not align with what actually humans ate in that era, but the experts' contention was that humans had had way, way more than the necessary minimum time to adapt to grains, since the advent of farming. (Note: Not saying no one should do paleo, if it floats their boat, just that the theoretical justification is shaky.)
Like it or not, our food systems are what they are now. We can adapt the systems to us by voting with our dollars for different choices, or adapt our behavior to them . . . by eating appropriate amounts of Lean Cuisine, protein powder, frozen veg and Fiber One bars, or something like that, I guess.
Every word of this. In the context of this discussion and in a much broader sense too.2 -
psychod787 wrote: »
Again source? You don't need to have an eating disorder to be suicidal.-Eating disorders are the deadliest of all mental illnesses due to high rates of suicide and permanent damage to internal organs.
With regards to your wanting a source for the bit of the op's post that said, "Eating disorders are the deadliest of all mental illnesses due to high rates of suicide and permanent damage to internal organs.", this is actually very easy to back up:
https://www.nimh.nih.gov/about/directors/thomas-insel/blog/2012/spotlight-on-eating-disorders.shtml
It's one of the only things (if not the only thing) in the first post that can easily be backed up. And yes, of course you don't have to have an eating disorder to be suicidal. Being suicidal is a symptom found in a wide number of mental illnesses, but that doesn't mean that all mental illnesses have the same death rates or that the cause of death related to a mental illness is always suicide.
I agree. I think clinical depression is far more dangerous. I just spent 8hrs in a class discussing clinical depression in the context of isolation....
You say that as though the overlap between EDs and clinical depression is the null set, which does not at all appear to be the case.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3085695/3 -
psychod787 wrote: »I wonder if anyone who wants to take cues from human evolution would be so quick to do so if they had to survive somewhere harsh without clothing or tools.
People who forget the past, are bound to repeat it.... looking back can help us look to the future. While we can not live like cave people. We can look at hunter gather groups and see how they live and take certain things and implement them.
I did not follow any of this. I definitely do not see how the "People who forget the past" line has anything to do with anthropological studies. I have always understood that it was talking about lessons we should learn as a society about social injustices and diplomatic disasters.
I think the lessons we need to learn do not need a wayback machine that goes that far back. Pre-industrial is much more recent and much better documented. Plenty of things to learn there.
Well... let's not make the same mistakes that led to our current issues. Thus eating to many calories and not moving. While weight had been on the rise since the turn of the 1900's, it really took off in the 70's and 80's. Corresponding with the rise of more sedentary jobs and lifestyle and increased intakes of well... foods that we ate too much of. If we look back in history, does not even have to be thousands of years ago, eat more whole foods and move a bit more. That's all... shoulders of giants stuff...0 -
psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »I wonder if anyone who wants to take cues from human evolution would be so quick to do so if they had to survive somewhere harsh without clothing or tools.
People who forget the past, are bound to repeat it.... looking back can help us look to the future. While we can not live like cave people. We can look at hunter gather groups and see how they live and take certain things and implement them.
I did not follow any of this. I definitely do not see how the "People who forget the past" line has anything to do with anthropological studies. I have always understood that it was talking about lessons we should learn as a society about social injustices and diplomatic disasters.
I think the lessons we need to learn do not need a wayback machine that goes that far back. Pre-industrial is much more recent and much better documented. Plenty of things to learn there.
Well... let's not make the same mistakes that led to our current issues. Thus eating to many calories and not moving. While weight had been on the rise since the turn of the 1900's, it really took off in the 70's and 80's. Corresponding with the rise of more sedentary jobs and lifestyle and increased intakes of well... foods that we ate too much of. If we look back in history, does not even have to be thousands of years ago, eat more whole foods and move a bit more. That's all... shoulders of giants stuff...
Actually when it comes to obesity we are making the history that someone else should hopefully learn from now. This era is the cautionary tale. I believe the important lesson for future generations is that solving obesity is prevention.4 -
moonangel12 wrote: »sammidelvecchio wrote: »moonangel12 wrote: »I currently live in WV - the obesity rate is ridiculous here! It makes me so sad to see so much of the population merely existing in this world, not living...
so you're suggesting people who are obese are not living their lives? That's a really ignorant statement.
No, not all... but so many that truly are at a point where they can’t function. I see it in my own family. So many people who say “I can’t” due to their physical limitations. I have family that have finally gotten to the stage in life where the could travel, like they have always wanted, but they can’t due to obesity. Someone on my husband’s side who spent the last few years of her life mostly bedridden - there were other factors, but her weight was just too much for the state her knees were in. She had been told for years she needed to lose weight. Her daughter is heading down the same path, but is taking some steps toward a healthier lifestyle.
That makes a lot more sense than saying obese people are just existing. Thanks for the context.
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psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »I wonder if anyone who wants to take cues from human evolution would be so quick to do so if they had to survive somewhere harsh without clothing or tools.
People who forget the past, are bound to repeat it.... looking back can help us look to the future. While we can not live like cave people. We can look at hunter gather groups and see how they live and take certain things and implement them.
I did not follow any of this. I definitely do not see how the "People who forget the past" line has anything to do with anthropological studies. I have always understood that it was talking about lessons we should learn as a society about social injustices and diplomatic disasters.
I think the lessons we need to learn do not need a wayback machine that goes that far back. Pre-industrial is much more recent and much better documented. Plenty of things to learn there.
Well... let's not make the same mistakes that led to our current issues. Thus eating to many calories and not moving. While weight had been on the rise since the turn of the 1900's, it really took off in the 70's and 80's. Corresponding with the rise of more sedentary jobs and lifestyle and increased intakes of well... foods that we ate too much of. If we look back in history, does not even have to be thousands of years ago, eat more whole foods and move a bit more. That's all... shoulders of giants stuff...
Actually when it comes to obesity we are making the history that someone else should hopefully learn from now. This era is the cautionary tale. I believe the important lesson for future generations is that solving obesity is prevention.
Exactly, but the "cure" we develop today is the prevention of tomorrow. I dont want to play Nero....0 -
psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »I wonder if anyone who wants to take cues from human evolution would be so quick to do so if they had to survive somewhere harsh without clothing or tools.
People who forget the past, are bound to repeat it.... looking back can help us look to the future. While we can not live like cave people. We can look at hunter gather groups and see how they live and take certain things and implement them.
I did not follow any of this. I definitely do not see how the "People who forget the past" line has anything to do with anthropological studies. I have always understood that it was talking about lessons we should learn as a society about social injustices and diplomatic disasters.
I think the lessons we need to learn do not need a wayback machine that goes that far back. Pre-industrial is much more recent and much better documented. Plenty of things to learn there.
Well... let's not make the same mistakes that led to our current issues. Thus eating to many calories and not moving. While weight had been on the rise since the turn of the 1900's, it really took off in the 70's and 80's. Corresponding with the rise of more sedentary jobs and lifestyle and increased intakes of well... foods that we ate too much of. If we look back in history, does not even have to be thousands of years ago, eat more whole foods and move a bit more. That's all... shoulders of giants stuff...
Actually when it comes to obesity we are making the history that someone else should hopefully learn from now. This era is the cautionary tale. I believe the important lesson for future generations is that solving obesity is prevention.
Exactly, but the "cure" we develop today is the prevention of tomorrow. I dont want to play Nero....
The cure for the next generation is education. Require juniors in high school to take a health class on how to properly manage their weight. Warn them that if their life changes from an active to less active stage they need to eat less. People like me could give guest lectures about how much obesity once robbed me of my freedom.
The cure for this generation is still education but cutting through all the noise is very difficult.3 -
psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »I wonder if anyone who wants to take cues from human evolution would be so quick to do so if they had to survive somewhere harsh without clothing or tools.
People who forget the past, are bound to repeat it.... looking back can help us look to the future. While we can not live like cave people. We can look at hunter gather groups and see how they live and take certain things and implement them.
I did not follow any of this. I definitely do not see how the "People who forget the past" line has anything to do with anthropological studies. I have always understood that it was talking about lessons we should learn as a society about social injustices and diplomatic disasters.
I think the lessons we need to learn do not need a wayback machine that goes that far back. Pre-industrial is much more recent and much better documented. Plenty of things to learn there.
Well... let's not make the same mistakes that led to our current issues. Thus eating to many calories and not moving. While weight had been on the rise since the turn of the 1900's, it really took off in the 70's and 80's. Corresponding with the rise of more sedentary jobs and lifestyle and increased intakes of well... foods that we ate too much of. If we look back in history, does not even have to be thousands of years ago, eat more whole foods and move a bit more. That's all... shoulders of giants stuff...
Actually when it comes to obesity we are making the history that someone else should hopefully learn from now. This era is the cautionary tale. I believe the important lesson for future generations is that solving obesity is prevention.
Exactly, but the "cure" we develop today is the prevention of tomorrow. I dont want to play Nero....
The cure for the next generation is education. Require juniors in high school to take a health class on how to properly manage their weight. Warn them that if their life changes from an active to less active stage they need to eat less. People like me could give guest lectures about how much obesity once robbed me of my freedom.
The cure for this generation is still education but cutting through all the noise is very difficult.
While I agree that education IS important. The USDA tried to educated people years ago and how did they respond?2 -
bathsheba_c wrote: »Consider this:
-The human body has evolved to favor weight gain in order to avoid starvation.
-Calorie deprivation experiments have shown that even fairly small reductions in food intake can cause psychological distress, including hoarding behaviors.
-Eating disorders are the deadliest of all mental illnesses due to high rates of suicide and permanent damage to internal organs.
-Not eating enough stressed the body, which weakens the immune system and damages the cardiovascular system.
-Almost no one who loses weight keeps it off long-term.
-Being “overweight” after a certain age is protective against early death.
In light of the above, is it actually responsible to promote weight loss? Or would it be more responsible to encourage people to eat a balanced diet and exercise without looking at the scale?
Everyone who breathes dies. Therefore, I submit that everyone should stop breathing.13 -
Scottgriesser wrote: »bathsheba_c wrote: »Consider this:
-The human body has evolved to favor weight gain in order to avoid starvation.
-Calorie deprivation experiments have shown that even fairly small reductions in food intake can cause psychological distress, including hoarding behaviors.
-Eating disorders are the deadliest of all mental illnesses due to high rates of suicide and permanent damage to internal organs.
-Not eating enough stressed the body, which weakens the immune system and damages the cardiovascular system.
-Almost no one who loses weight keeps it off long-term.
-Being “overweight” after a certain age is protective against early death.
In light of the above, is it actually responsible to promote weight loss? Or would it be more responsible to encourage people to eat a balanced diet and exercise without looking at the scale?
Everyone who breathes dies. Therefore, I submit that everyone should stop breathing.
🤢2 -
psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »I wonder if anyone who wants to take cues from human evolution would be so quick to do so if they had to survive somewhere harsh without clothing or tools.
People who forget the past, are bound to repeat it.... looking back can help us look to the future. While we can not live like cave people. We can look at hunter gather groups and see how they live and take certain things and implement them.
I did not follow any of this. I definitely do not see how the "People who forget the past" line has anything to do with anthropological studies. I have always understood that it was talking about lessons we should learn as a society about social injustices and diplomatic disasters.
I think the lessons we need to learn do not need a wayback machine that goes that far back. Pre-industrial is much more recent and much better documented. Plenty of things to learn there.
Well... let's not make the same mistakes that led to our current issues. Thus eating to many calories and not moving. While weight had been on the rise since the turn of the 1900's, it really took off in the 70's and 80's. Corresponding with the rise of more sedentary jobs and lifestyle and increased intakes of well... foods that we ate too much of. If we look back in history, does not even have to be thousands of years ago, eat more whole foods and move a bit more. That's all... shoulders of giants stuff...
Actually when it comes to obesity we are making the history that someone else should hopefully learn from now. This era is the cautionary tale. I believe the important lesson for future generations is that solving obesity is prevention.
Exactly, but the "cure" we develop today is the prevention of tomorrow. I dont want to play Nero....
The cure for the next generation is education. Require juniors in high school to take a health class on how to properly manage their weight. Warn them that if their life changes from an active to less active stage they need to eat less. People like me could give guest lectures about how much obesity once robbed me of my freedom.
The cure for this generation is still education but cutting through all the noise is very difficult.
While I agree that education IS important. The USDA tried to educated people years ago and how did they respond?
I don't recall anyone ever teaching me anything other than food groups for balanced nutrition. I would have loved if someone explained how to interpret the scale and how to calculate the correct amount of food to eat. If a former big person had told me to get on the friggun scale once a week no matter what and take action immediately if it is consistently 10 pounds high it might have stuck with me. It might have also been nice to know that my genetics were not really holding me back and that set points were not a real thing.
What other answer could there be? Should we take away food freedom and force everyone to exercise each day?5 -
psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »I wonder if anyone who wants to take cues from human evolution would be so quick to do so if they had to survive somewhere harsh without clothing or tools.
People who forget the past, are bound to repeat it.... looking back can help us look to the future. While we can not live like cave people. We can look at hunter gather groups and see how they live and take certain things and implement them.
I did not follow any of this. I definitely do not see how the "People who forget the past" line has anything to do with anthropological studies. I have always understood that it was talking about lessons we should learn as a society about social injustices and diplomatic disasters.
I think the lessons we need to learn do not need a wayback machine that goes that far back. Pre-industrial is much more recent and much better documented. Plenty of things to learn there.
Well... let's not make the same mistakes that led to our current issues. Thus eating to many calories and not moving. While weight had been on the rise since the turn of the 1900's, it really took off in the 70's and 80's. Corresponding with the rise of more sedentary jobs and lifestyle and increased intakes of well... foods that we ate too much of. If we look back in history, does not even have to be thousands of years ago, eat more whole foods and move a bit more. That's all... shoulders of giants stuff...
Actually when it comes to obesity we are making the history that someone else should hopefully learn from now. This era is the cautionary tale. I believe the important lesson for future generations is that solving obesity is prevention.
Exactly, but the "cure" we develop today is the prevention of tomorrow. I dont want to play Nero....
The cure for the next generation is education. Require juniors in high school to take a health class on how to properly manage their weight. Warn them that if their life changes from an active to less active stage they need to eat less. People like me could give guest lectures about how much obesity once robbed me of my freedom.
The cure for this generation is still education but cutting through all the noise is very difficult.
While I agree that education IS important. The USDA tried to educated people years ago and how did they respond?
I don't recall anyone ever teaching me anything other than food groups for balanced nutrition. I would have loved if someone explained how to interpret the scale and how to calculate the correct amount of food to eat. If a former big person had told me to get on the friggun scale once a week no matter what and take action immediately if it is consistently 10 pounds high it might have stuck with me. It might have also been nice to know that my genetics were not really holding me back and that set points were not a real thing.
What other answer could there be? Should we take away food freedom and force everyone to exercise each day?
They taught me that, and I went and got obese anyway.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10625791/mainstream-eating-guidance-1960
I think modeling (how family/peers behave) and cultural pressures are probably more influential than structured education, for most people . . . and those are hard to influence. People tend to behave in ways that seem "normal" to them. It's part of what keeps fat countries fat, corrupt countries corrupt, etc. I suspect that because of thousands of generations with roots in tribal/village life, we may be hard-wired to tend toward "normal". Popular things (books, music, foods, etc.) IMO are popular because they're popular, not because they're objectively best.6 -
psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »I wonder if anyone who wants to take cues from human evolution would be so quick to do so if they had to survive somewhere harsh without clothing or tools.
People who forget the past, are bound to repeat it.... looking back can help us look to the future. While we can not live like cave people. We can look at hunter gather groups and see how they live and take certain things and implement them.
I did not follow any of this. I definitely do not see how the "People who forget the past" line has anything to do with anthropological studies. I have always understood that it was talking about lessons we should learn as a society about social injustices and diplomatic disasters.
I think the lessons we need to learn do not need a wayback machine that goes that far back. Pre-industrial is much more recent and much better documented. Plenty of things to learn there.
Well... let's not make the same mistakes that led to our current issues. Thus eating to many calories and not moving. While weight had been on the rise since the turn of the 1900's, it really took off in the 70's and 80's. Corresponding with the rise of more sedentary jobs and lifestyle and increased intakes of well... foods that we ate too much of. If we look back in history, does not even have to be thousands of years ago, eat more whole foods and move a bit more. That's all... shoulders of giants stuff...
Actually when it comes to obesity we are making the history that someone else should hopefully learn from now. This era is the cautionary tale. I believe the important lesson for future generations is that solving obesity is prevention.
Exactly, but the "cure" we develop today is the prevention of tomorrow. I dont want to play Nero....
The cure for the next generation is education. Require juniors in high school to take a health class on how to properly manage their weight. Warn them that if their life changes from an active to less active stage they need to eat less. People like me could give guest lectures about how much obesity once robbed me of my freedom.
The cure for this generation is still education but cutting through all the noise is very difficult.
While I agree that education IS important. The USDA tried to educated people years ago and how did they respond?
I don't recall anyone ever teaching me anything other than food groups for balanced nutrition. I would have loved if someone explained how to interpret the scale and how to calculate the correct amount of food to eat. If a former big person had told me to get on the friggun scale once a week no matter what and take action immediately if it is consistently 10 pounds high it might have stuck with me. It might have also been nice to know that my genetics were not really holding me back and that set points were not a real thing.
What other answer could there be? Should we take away food freedom and force everyone to exercise each day?
So, I guess I am younger than you because the food pyramid they gave us had how many servings to have a day. I personally feel it's a little wrong, but oh well. Yes, genetics do play a role in weight. Though, personal choice decides If you become obese or not. Some people are just more predisposed to it. Very rarely will I tell a person they are wrong, but you are about set points. I look at it as more of a settling range than a point. Too much research exist on the subject. The range myriad of things. Environment, diet, exercise, genetics, weight history. Not saying you cant get below it, you can, but there is a price to pay. This point is not a fixed one. It can change as you change, but there will come a point in your adventure that your body will fight back at certain weight/bf. Not discounting what you have done, but you are still on the losing part of your adventure. Weight loss maintenance is a another thing.1 -
bathsheba_c wrote: »Consider this:
-Being “overweight” after a certain age is protective against early death.
I'm reasonably sure this is an equivocation. If you have any source for this, I imagine it is that overweight is predictive of lower mortality, but that isn't the same as predictive. See, in old age, being underweight or going from overweight to normal weight tends to be associated with some bad conditions like cancer which have high mortality rates.
What is incredibly predictive of lifespan in old age is actually lean tissue mass. It isn't terribly surprising that people who have the muscles for full mobility aren't likely to die too soon.9 -
I do not have a source - but no, they do mean being slightly overweight - or more specifically staying slightly overweight if you already are rather than trying to lose weight - deliberate trying, not losing weight through illness - can be better for some older people.
having that little bit of reserve helps in bounce-back or cushion back from illness.
As I said earlier we are talking about a small demographic - people over 70 who have BMI's of 26/27ish and have been that level for a long period of time may be better maintaining at that than trying to lose weight.
Not younger people. Not older people in obese category.
People 70+ who have BMI's slightly above range and have been that level for a long period of time.6 -
psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »I wonder if anyone who wants to take cues from human evolution would be so quick to do so if they had to survive somewhere harsh without clothing or tools.
People who forget the past, are bound to repeat it.... looking back can help us look to the future. While we can not live like cave people. We can look at hunter gather groups and see how they live and take certain things and implement them.
I did not follow any of this. I definitely do not see how the "People who forget the past" line has anything to do with anthropological studies. I have always understood that it was talking about lessons we should learn as a society about social injustices and diplomatic disasters.
I think the lessons we need to learn do not need a wayback machine that goes that far back. Pre-industrial is much more recent and much better documented. Plenty of things to learn there.
Well... let's not make the same mistakes that led to our current issues. Thus eating to many calories and not moving. While weight had been on the rise since the turn of the 1900's, it really took off in the 70's and 80's. Corresponding with the rise of more sedentary jobs and lifestyle and increased intakes of well... foods that we ate too much of. If we look back in history, does not even have to be thousands of years ago, eat more whole foods and move a bit more. That's all... shoulders of giants stuff...
Actually when it comes to obesity we are making the history that someone else should hopefully learn from now. This era is the cautionary tale. I believe the important lesson for future generations is that solving obesity is prevention.
Exactly, but the "cure" we develop today is the prevention of tomorrow. I dont want to play Nero....
The cure for the next generation is education. Require juniors in high school to take a health class on how to properly manage their weight. Warn them that if their life changes from an active to less active stage they need to eat less. People like me could give guest lectures about how much obesity once robbed me of my freedom.
The cure for this generation is still education but cutting through all the noise is very difficult.
While I agree that education IS important. The USDA tried to educated people years ago and how did they respond?
I don't recall anyone ever teaching me anything other than food groups for balanced nutrition. I would have loved if someone explained how to interpret the scale and how to calculate the correct amount of food to eat. If a former big person had told me to get on the friggun scale once a week no matter what and take action immediately if it is consistently 10 pounds high it might have stuck with me. It might have also been nice to know that my genetics were not really holding me back and that set points were not a real thing.
What other answer could there be? Should we take away food freedom and force everyone to exercise each day?
I agree that education (with actually good information- evidence-based- "cutting through all the noise" as you said) is important. Other needs may depend on the person- mental health care was a big need for me. Even with good info, I couldn't do this weight loss thing without taking care of my mental health first.2 -
bathsheba_c wrote: »Consider this:
-The human body has evolved to favor weight gain in order to avoid starvation.
-Calorie deprivation experiments have shown that even fairly small reductions in food intake can cause psychological distress, including hoarding behaviors.
-Eating disorders are the deadliest of all mental illnesses due to high rates of suicide and permanent damage to internal organs.
-Not eating enough stressed the body, which weakens the immune system and damages the cardiovascular system.
-Almost no one who loses weight keeps it off long-term.
-Being “overweight” after a certain age is protective against early death.
In light of the above, is it actually responsible to promote weight loss? Or would it be more responsible to encourage people to eat a balanced diet and exercise without looking at the scale?
Better education/ information + mental health care could help prevent these issues. Slow, steady weight loss with maintenance breaks stopping at a healthy weight isn't an eating disorder, will cause less stress than crash diets, will be easier to maintain, will improve most people's health and fitness.3 -
healingnurtrer wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »I wonder if anyone who wants to take cues from human evolution would be so quick to do so if they had to survive somewhere harsh without clothing or tools.
People who forget the past, are bound to repeat it.... looking back can help us look to the future. While we can not live like cave people. We can look at hunter gather groups and see how they live and take certain things and implement them.
I did not follow any of this. I definitely do not see how the "People who forget the past" line has anything to do with anthropological studies. I have always understood that it was talking about lessons we should learn as a society about social injustices and diplomatic disasters.
I think the lessons we need to learn do not need a wayback machine that goes that far back. Pre-industrial is much more recent and much better documented. Plenty of things to learn there.
Well... let's not make the same mistakes that led to our current issues. Thus eating to many calories and not moving. While weight had been on the rise since the turn of the 1900's, it really took off in the 70's and 80's. Corresponding with the rise of more sedentary jobs and lifestyle and increased intakes of well... foods that we ate too much of. If we look back in history, does not even have to be thousands of years ago, eat more whole foods and move a bit more. That's all... shoulders of giants stuff...
Actually when it comes to obesity we are making the history that someone else should hopefully learn from now. This era is the cautionary tale. I believe the important lesson for future generations is that solving obesity is prevention.
Exactly, but the "cure" we develop today is the prevention of tomorrow. I dont want to play Nero....
The cure for the next generation is education. Require juniors in high school to take a health class on how to properly manage their weight. Warn them that if their life changes from an active to less active stage they need to eat less. People like me could give guest lectures about how much obesity once robbed me of my freedom.
The cure for this generation is still education but cutting through all the noise is very difficult.
While I agree that education IS important. The USDA tried to educated people years ago and how did they respond?
I don't recall anyone ever teaching me anything other than food groups for balanced nutrition. I would have loved if someone explained how to interpret the scale and how to calculate the correct amount of food to eat. If a former big person had told me to get on the friggun scale once a week no matter what and take action immediately if it is consistently 10 pounds high it might have stuck with me. It might have also been nice to know that my genetics were not really holding me back and that set points were not a real thing.
What other answer could there be? Should we take away food freedom and force everyone to exercise each day?
I agree that education (with actually good information- evidence-based- "cutting through all the noise" as you said) is important. Other needs may depend on the person- mental health care was a big need for me. Even with good info, I couldn't do this weight loss thing without taking care of my mental health first.
I am in full agreement that there needs to be more resources available, in general, with regards to mental health care as well as more information about mental illnesses (including pointing people to low cost and/or free resources). That said, that's not going to stop people from becoming overweight or obese if their mental health isn't a factor in their weight (raises hand).2 -
psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »I wonder if anyone who wants to take cues from human evolution would be so quick to do so if they had to survive somewhere harsh without clothing or tools.
People who forget the past, are bound to repeat it.... looking back can help us look to the future. While we can not live like cave people. We can look at hunter gather groups and see how they live and take certain things and implement them.
I did not follow any of this. I definitely do not see how the "People who forget the past" line has anything to do with anthropological studies. I have always understood that it was talking about lessons we should learn as a society about social injustices and diplomatic disasters.
I think the lessons we need to learn do not need a wayback machine that goes that far back. Pre-industrial is much more recent and much better documented. Plenty of things to learn there.
Well... let's not make the same mistakes that led to our current issues. Thus eating to many calories and not moving. While weight had been on the rise since the turn of the 1900's, it really took off in the 70's and 80's. Corresponding with the rise of more sedentary jobs and lifestyle and increased intakes of well... foods that we ate too much of. If we look back in history, does not even have to be thousands of years ago, eat more whole foods and move a bit more. That's all... shoulders of giants stuff...
Actually when it comes to obesity we are making the history that someone else should hopefully learn from now. This era is the cautionary tale. I believe the important lesson for future generations is that solving obesity is prevention.
Exactly, but the "cure" we develop today is the prevention of tomorrow. I dont want to play Nero....
The cure for the next generation is education. Require juniors in high school to take a health class on how to properly manage their weight. Warn them that if their life changes from an active to less active stage they need to eat less. People like me could give guest lectures about how much obesity once robbed me of my freedom.
The cure for this generation is still education but cutting through all the noise is very difficult.
While I agree that education IS important. The USDA tried to educated people years ago and how did they respond?
Yep, if everyone followed "My Plate" the incidence of obesity would be significantly lower IMO.
Information is there. Old saying you can lead a horse to water, can't make him drink.4 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »I wonder if anyone who wants to take cues from human evolution would be so quick to do so if they had to survive somewhere harsh without clothing or tools.
People who forget the past, are bound to repeat it.... looking back can help us look to the future. While we can not live like cave people. We can look at hunter gather groups and see how they live and take certain things and implement them.
I did not follow any of this. I definitely do not see how the "People who forget the past" line has anything to do with anthropological studies. I have always understood that it was talking about lessons we should learn as a society about social injustices and diplomatic disasters.
I think the lessons we need to learn do not need a wayback machine that goes that far back. Pre-industrial is much more recent and much better documented. Plenty of things to learn there.
Well... let's not make the same mistakes that led to our current issues. Thus eating to many calories and not moving. While weight had been on the rise since the turn of the 1900's, it really took off in the 70's and 80's. Corresponding with the rise of more sedentary jobs and lifestyle and increased intakes of well... foods that we ate too much of. If we look back in history, does not even have to be thousands of years ago, eat more whole foods and move a bit more. That's all... shoulders of giants stuff...
Actually when it comes to obesity we are making the history that someone else should hopefully learn from now. This era is the cautionary tale. I believe the important lesson for future generations is that solving obesity is prevention.
Exactly, but the "cure" we develop today is the prevention of tomorrow. I dont want to play Nero....
The cure for the next generation is education. Require juniors in high school to take a health class on how to properly manage their weight. Warn them that if their life changes from an active to less active stage they need to eat less. People like me could give guest lectures about how much obesity once robbed me of my freedom.
The cure for this generation is still education but cutting through all the noise is very difficult.
While I agree that education IS important. The USDA tried to educated people years ago and how did they respond?
Yep, if everyone followed "My Plate" the incidence of obesity would be significantly lower IMO.
Information is there. Old saying you can lead a horse to water, can't make him drink.
Dont forget about the MFP Koolaid....2 -
Is promoting weight loss dangerous?
If the person you’re promoting it to is underweight or a healthy weight and they are listening to that advice? Yes.
If the weight loss method is dangerous? Yes.
If the person it’s being promoted to is overweight or obese? No.
As long as the method is healthy and safe, and it’s promoted to people who actually need to lose weight, I’d say it’s dangerous not to promote it.7 -
healingnurtrer wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »I wonder if anyone who wants to take cues from human evolution would be so quick to do so if they had to survive somewhere harsh without clothing or tools.
People who forget the past, are bound to repeat it.... looking back can help us look to the future. While we can not live like cave people. We can look at hunter gather groups and see how they live and take certain things and implement them.
I did not follow any of this. I definitely do not see how the "People who forget the past" line has anything to do with anthropological studies. I have always understood that it was talking about lessons we should learn as a society about social injustices and diplomatic disasters.
I think the lessons we need to learn do not need a wayback machine that goes that far back. Pre-industrial is much more recent and much better documented. Plenty of things to learn there.
Well... let's not make the same mistakes that led to our current issues. Thus eating to many calories and not moving. While weight had been on the rise since the turn of the 1900's, it really took off in the 70's and 80's. Corresponding with the rise of more sedentary jobs and lifestyle and increased intakes of well... foods that we ate too much of. If we look back in history, does not even have to be thousands of years ago, eat more whole foods and move a bit more. That's all... shoulders of giants stuff...
Actually when it comes to obesity we are making the history that someone else should hopefully learn from now. This era is the cautionary tale. I believe the important lesson for future generations is that solving obesity is prevention.
Exactly, but the "cure" we develop today is the prevention of tomorrow. I dont want to play Nero....
The cure for the next generation is education. Require juniors in high school to take a health class on how to properly manage their weight. Warn them that if their life changes from an active to less active stage they need to eat less. People like me could give guest lectures about how much obesity once robbed me of my freedom.
The cure for this generation is still education but cutting through all the noise is very difficult.
While I agree that education IS important. The USDA tried to educated people years ago and how did they respond?
I don't recall anyone ever teaching me anything other than food groups for balanced nutrition. I would have loved if someone explained how to interpret the scale and how to calculate the correct amount of food to eat. If a former big person had told me to get on the friggun scale once a week no matter what and take action immediately if it is consistently 10 pounds high it might have stuck with me. It might have also been nice to know that my genetics were not really holding me back and that set points were not a real thing.
What other answer could there be? Should we take away food freedom and force everyone to exercise each day?
I agree that education (with actually good information- evidence-based- "cutting through all the noise" as you said) is important. Other needs may depend on the person- mental health care was a big need for me. Even with good info, I couldn't do this weight loss thing without taking care of my mental health first.
I am in full agreement that there needs to be more resources available, in general, with regards to mental health care as well as more information about mental illnesses (including pointing people to low cost and/or free resources). That said, that's not going to stop people from becoming overweight or obese if their mental health isn't a factor in their weight (raises hand).
I did not mean to imply everyone who is overweight or obese needs mental health care- it was asked what other answer could there be (besides education) and one example I could think of was mental health care- just an example from my life.
I feel like I had pretty good information available to me when I started gaining weight for the first time I realized my behavior was causing my weight gain, I knew what I needed to do but that knowledge wasn't "all" I needed. I needed more than education and lifestyle change, I needed counseling.3 -
healingnurtrer wrote: »healingnurtrer wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »I wonder if anyone who wants to take cues from human evolution would be so quick to do so if they had to survive somewhere harsh without clothing or tools.
People who forget the past, are bound to repeat it.... looking back can help us look to the future. While we can not live like cave people. We can look at hunter gather groups and see how they live and take certain things and implement them.
I did not follow any of this. I definitely do not see how the "People who forget the past" line has anything to do with anthropological studies. I have always understood that it was talking about lessons we should learn as a society about social injustices and diplomatic disasters.
I think the lessons we need to learn do not need a wayback machine that goes that far back. Pre-industrial is much more recent and much better documented. Plenty of things to learn there.
Well... let's not make the same mistakes that led to our current issues. Thus eating to many calories and not moving. While weight had been on the rise since the turn of the 1900's, it really took off in the 70's and 80's. Corresponding with the rise of more sedentary jobs and lifestyle and increased intakes of well... foods that we ate too much of. If we look back in history, does not even have to be thousands of years ago, eat more whole foods and move a bit more. That's all... shoulders of giants stuff...
Actually when it comes to obesity we are making the history that someone else should hopefully learn from now. This era is the cautionary tale. I believe the important lesson for future generations is that solving obesity is prevention.
Exactly, but the "cure" we develop today is the prevention of tomorrow. I dont want to play Nero....
The cure for the next generation is education. Require juniors in high school to take a health class on how to properly manage their weight. Warn them that if their life changes from an active to less active stage they need to eat less. People like me could give guest lectures about how much obesity once robbed me of my freedom.
The cure for this generation is still education but cutting through all the noise is very difficult.
While I agree that education IS important. The USDA tried to educated people years ago and how did they respond?
I don't recall anyone ever teaching me anything other than food groups for balanced nutrition. I would have loved if someone explained how to interpret the scale and how to calculate the correct amount of food to eat. If a former big person had told me to get on the friggun scale once a week no matter what and take action immediately if it is consistently 10 pounds high it might have stuck with me. It might have also been nice to know that my genetics were not really holding me back and that set points were not a real thing.
What other answer could there be? Should we take away food freedom and force everyone to exercise each day?
I agree that education (with actually good information- evidence-based- "cutting through all the noise" as you said) is important. Other needs may depend on the person- mental health care was a big need for me. Even with good info, I couldn't do this weight loss thing without taking care of my mental health first.
I am in full agreement that there needs to be more resources available, in general, with regards to mental health care as well as more information about mental illnesses (including pointing people to low cost and/or free resources). That said, that's not going to stop people from becoming overweight or obese if their mental health isn't a factor in their weight (raises hand).
I did not mean to imply everyone who is overweight or obese needs mental health care- it was asked what other answer could there be (besides education) and one example I could think of was mental health care- just an example from my life.
I feel like I had pretty good information available to me when I started gaining weight for the first time I realized my behavior was causing my weight gain, I knew what I needed to do but that knowledge wasn't "all" I needed. I needed more than education and lifestyle change, I needed counseling.
No worries. I'm not trying to invalidate your lived experiences and like I said, we're in agreement that more resources surrounding mental health care need to be made available/publicized. Then of course there's the constant need to dismantle the stigma surrounding mental illness. All I was saying is that mental illness and weight gain aren't always related.
So if we use me as an example, I gained enough weight over a fairly long period of time to make my way into the lowest category of obese. I also have had depression of varying severities for the vast majority of my life including when I was at a healthy weight. Those two things, my depression (and anxiety) and my gaining weight, are unrelated to each other.5 -
people can die from obesity yes, but they can also die from being underweight, or even just by losing weight too quickly/malnutrition(regardless of what weight you are at). along with alot of other people i know, i have a considerable amount of heart conditions caused by dieting and food restriction. it is a very dangerous thing to do, and is often hard to know when to stop5
-
blue_killen wrote: »people can die from obesity yes, but they can also die from being underweight, or even just by losing weight too quickly/malnutrition(regardless of what weight you are at). along with alot of other people i know, i have a considerable amount of heart conditions caused by dieting and food restriction. it is a very dangerous thing to do, and is often hard to know when to stop
In our particular moment, the average American is much more at risk from obesity and the risks associated with it than they are from being underweight and the risks associated with that.
I don't think that anyone is denying that being below a healthy body weight is dangerous. It's just when you look around us, what sets of risks is the average American more likely to be facing *right now*? There is a reason why we're focused on one over the other.
I'm sorry you know a lot of people with heart conditions associated with food restriction. But if the average American knows someone with a health condition associated with weight, it's going to be a safe bet that it is *excess* weight that is the issue.7 -
janejellyroll wrote: »blue_killen wrote: »people can die from obesity yes, but they can also die from being underweight, or even just by losing weight too quickly/malnutrition(regardless of what weight you are at). along with alot of other people i know, i have a considerable amount of heart conditions caused by dieting and food restriction. it is a very dangerous thing to do, and is often hard to know when to stop
In our particular moment, the average American is much more at risk from obesity and the risks associated with it than they are from being underweight and the risks associated with that.
I don't think that anyone is denying that being below a healthy body weight is dangerous. It's just when you look around us, what sets of risks is the average American more likely to be facing *right now*? There is a reason why we're focused on one over the other.
I'm sorry you know a lot of people with heart conditions associated with food restriction. But if the average American knows someone with a health condition associated with weight, it's going to be a safe bet that it is *excess* weight that is the issue.
There is a "we're" with regard to being focused on obesity. I am one of the "we're". I am not unconcerned about people who are suffering from being underweight from restriction and the health problems it causes. However, I can not be invested in every cause because if I tried my attention would be diluted to the point I could not actually serve any one cause effectively.
There should be a "we're" fighting for the people who are suffering from restriction related problems. That cause is also very important. I am not sure if it will be any easier to fix than obesity but the people who feel passionately about it should try. I know a woman that seems to know a good number of people who have suffered and even died from over-restriction. It is kind of odd how that happens. One person knows a good number and I am not sure I know of any.3 -
janejellyroll wrote: »blue_killen wrote: »people can die from obesity yes, but they can also die from being underweight, or even just by losing weight too quickly/malnutrition(regardless of what weight you are at). along with alot of other people i know, i have a considerable amount of heart conditions caused by dieting and food restriction. it is a very dangerous thing to do, and is often hard to know when to stop
In our particular moment, the average American is much more at risk from obesity and the risks associated with it than they are from being underweight and the risks associated with that.
I don't think that anyone is denying that being below a healthy body weight is dangerous. It's just when you look around us, what sets of risks is the average American more likely to be facing *right now*? There is a reason why we're focused on one over the other.
I'm sorry you know a lot of people with heart conditions associated with food restriction. But if the average American knows someone with a health condition associated with weight, it's going to be a safe bet that it is *excess* weight that is the issue.
There is a "we're" with regard to being focused on obesity. I am one of the "we're". I am not unconcerned about people who are suffering from being underweight from restriction and the health problems it causes. However, I can not be invested in every cause because if I tried my attention would be diluted to the point I could not actually serve any one cause effectively.
There should be a "we're" fighting for the people who are suffering from restriction related problems. That cause is also very important. I am not sure if it will be any easier to fix than obesity but the people who feel passionately about it should try. I know a woman that seems to know a good number of people who have suffered and even died from over-restriction. It is kind of odd how that happens. One person knows a good number and I am not sure I know of any.
Yes, I know many people who have struggled with disordered eating but I don't know anyone (that I know of) that has suffered from serious health consequences associated with restriction. On the other hand, I know multiple people -- just in my family -- who have suffered serious or even fatal consequences from illnesses associated with obesity and I know many other people are struggling with them.
I'm not trying to say that if someone feels the health consequences of restriction are important that they shouldn't focus on trying to help in that area. The world has so many problems that I think it is okay for people to focus on making something better if they feel passionate about it, there is no obligation to not focus on it just because something else might have a higher number of victims or people impacted.
It's just that I think arguing that we shouldn't "promote" weight loss because over-restriction has some risks isn't a good argument. Yes, over-restriction has risks and should be avoided. But over-indulgence resulting in obesity has serious risks that impact millions of Americans (and Westerners) and we can't justify ignoring that.8 -
i guess everyone's stance is going to depend on what you've experienced and seen. I'm not from America and I live somewhere where I've known of more people to die from restriction. it all depends on what you know, but obviously both can be bad.2
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