Meatless The Better
Replies
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We live longer, are healthier, happier, and have more leisure time than any generation before. Our food is cleaner, more nutritious and safer. Farming is more productive thereby sustaining more people than ever thought possible. Only a few holdouts in the world are dumping significant waste and garbage in open waters most all of which can be found within 30 miles of the Yangtze River in China.
For my part, I am pretty optimistic about the present and the future.2 -
ThinnerLiz wrote: »Jane, I was never either obese nor underweight. My desire for weight loss was strictly one of vanity, not health. I was... I am, lucky. I was medically healthy, active—gym rat/cyclist/runner—but felt crappy; tired all the time, suffered with Fibromyalgia and the accompanying brain fog and fatigue. I do not have Celiac, nor am I lactose intolerant or anything like that.
I gained weight around my middle as I aged, and started gaining those fat pads on my upper hips. I was told “that’s getting older” and my fluctuating energy levels, aching joints, etc, were “all part of getting older” and menopause was the kicker.
I decided to find out for myself if this had to be my fate or not.
My best friend—same age—is a fitness buff and very focused on diet and wellness. She has been her whole life. She also believes in “CICO” with the idea that all calories are created equal.
(Biochemistry tells us this is not true. The body responds to different nutrients in different ways.)
We decided to lose weight and “regain our girlish figures” from 30 years ago if we could, while being diet buddies.
I went Primal, and she stuck to the Food Pyramid loaded with grains, starches, lots of fruit, less protein and minimal fat. (There had been several false starts, beginning in 2009 with WW, among other things. I lost, and gained it all back. Because all those carbs were like rocket fuel to my appetite.)
Here it is a few years later and I am rather effortlessly losing, and maintaining my weight, looking leaner and better than ever. My friend is still eating low calorie/carb dense and is doing spinning classes, Zumba, weight training, etc. to keep things in check.
I work out too, but it takes a lot less for me to stay lean and in shape. She feels it’s hopeless, yet looks at me like I have three heads when I suggest cutting BACK (not eliminating) the grains and starches to see what happens. And I am a case in point. It’s hard for her to consider that perhaps much of what she has learned up until now might be wrong. That’s not easy for anyone.
We don’t need that stuff. We really don’t. I eat bread and pasta on occasion because I like it. I certainly don’t need it. I can eat loads of broccoli and cabbage and asparagus instead. I get plenty of carbs, but usually between 70-130g (total) per day. And I feel fantastic.
Again, I suggest each person find out for themselves. This is hardly a new or radical idea. Let the proof be in the Rice Pudding!
Or the Tapioca, which is my favorite!
CICO doesn't mean that one is disregarding nutrients. Either you misunderstood what your friend was communicating to you or your friend doesn't understand CICO herself.
Cutting back grains and starches is only going to result in weight loss if it reduces the number of overall calories one is eating. There are plenty of people who are active, slender, and thriving while including starches in their diet (I'd include myself in that category -- I ran three marathons last year including things like beans, potatoes, pasta, rice, and oats in my diet).
Do we *need* starches? No. But we don't need to eliminate them either.15 -
ThinnerLiz wrote: »We don’t need that stuff. We really don’t. I eat bread and pasta on occasion because I like it. I certainly don’t need it. I can eat loads of broccoli and cabbage and asparagus instead. I get plenty of carbs, but usually between 70-130g (total) per day. And I feel fantastic.
As I understand Jane, she is saying that humans can be healthy on many different diets. So sure, you don't need to eat more carbs, but it's also possible to be extremely healthy eating a higher carb diet (or avoiding meat and other animal products).
There is someone who will say they feel so much better eating almost any diet (keto, lower carb, WFPB, vegan, pescatarian, paleo, IFing, whatever). Usually the changes are broader than the ones they focus on.
For example, many who go keto insist they eat more veg than they did before. I find that counterintuitive, since of course vegetables have carbs and it seems easier to eat more veg without going keto and restricting carbs to under 25 net or whatnot (I tried keto and kept net carbs around 30 and found myself having to cut back on veg, personally). But in many cases they may also be making better nutritional choices over all, since they are focusing on their diet, might be losing a little weight (it's common for even small losses to cause people to feel better), eating more protein, exercising somewhat more, all sorts of things. For me, I feel better when I eat mindfully, and following a new diet usually gets me doing that.
I tend to agree with Jane that humans can be super healthy on a huge range of diets. (And I would disagree with the OP for similar reasons.)
Well said, this is exactly what I was saying. We can be healthy on many different diets, including diets that includes legumes and starches.
If someone is eating enough starch to crowd out other nutrients that they need, it's logical that they'd feel better with a dietary change that allowed them to meet their nutritional needs. But it's also possible for someone who isn't meeting their nutritional needs to feel better when they start including more legumes and starches in their diet because they're now meeting needs they were not meeting before.
And there are hundreds of testimonials for different types of diets that suggest the truth of this. For every person who is swearing that the primal diet "changed their life," you can probably find someone who is raving about how going plant-based did it for them (or Whole 30 or keto or whatever). The common thread is finding a diet that meets someone's nutritional needs. This can also be done without adopting any specific dietary style at all. This is how flexible humans are when it comes to diet -- there are many configurations of eating that can meet our needs. The important thing is getting the needs met.6 -
kshama2001 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »wilson10102018 wrote: »Other than getting flamed for saying my experiences, I am happy to have a lot of successful vegans weigh in, as it were. I do think that persons who assume that an adult would comment to a woman on their body shape reasonableness is pretty perverted. Where on earth would that happen? I can't imagine who would even suggest such a thing.
You assessed these women's bodies, formed conclusions, and shared those conclusions with us. It's not really that odd to conclude that you might have said something to them or let them know through your gaze and facial expressions (or other actions) that you were evaluating them and found them wanting.
I mean, I would hope we lived in a world where men weren't checking out their sons' dates and sharing their assessments online, but we clearly don't live in that world. Why is a direct comment to them the only thing you think is a bridge too far in this situation?
I think Christian Serratos, who plays Rosita on The Walking Dead, has been looking unhealthy - pale and no muscle tone in her arms - but I don't get pushback for saying that because I'm female*. And I doubt @wilson10102018 would be getting pushback if he was his sons' mother instead of father.
*I might get pushback here on MFP, but I'm not counting that
I am wondering why you're feeling the need to bring up this specific person and critique her body, honestly.
And I'd also find it odd if a woman was analyzing and critiquing the bodies of the women her sons were bringing home and sharing the analysis online.
That's just me. In other families, it may be normal to treat a child's guests that way.9 -
judyvalentine512 wrote: »Thought I'd add my two cents. All the fast food places are pushing these 'beyond meat' burgers and such. Looking at the ingredients, there is some thing called soy isolates. Not a good thing. There are more additives and fat in one of these burgers than a regular burger.
Also, while checking out this very subject, the proteins you get from plants, while good, not all of them are processed in the body as meat and dairy proteins, so not necessarily as good.
So, in conclusion, (my conclusion), it is better to eat a varied diet, everything in moderation. And don't forget, unless you can guarantee that your fruit and veggies are grown organically, you're getting plenty of chemicals and crap in your veggies and fruits as well.
Beyond Burger doesn't have soy. Before trying to scare people, you might want to research the subject.14 -
janejellyroll wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »wilson10102018 wrote: »Other than getting flamed for saying my experiences, I am happy to have a lot of successful vegans weigh in, as it were. I do think that persons who assume that an adult would comment to a woman on their body shape reasonableness is pretty perverted. Where on earth would that happen? I can't imagine who would even suggest such a thing.
You assessed these women's bodies, formed conclusions, and shared those conclusions with us. It's not really that odd to conclude that you might have said something to them or let them know through your gaze and facial expressions (or other actions) that you were evaluating them and found them wanting.
I mean, I would hope we lived in a world where men weren't checking out their sons' dates and sharing their assessments online, but we clearly don't live in that world. Why is a direct comment to them the only thing you think is a bridge too far in this situation?
I think Christian Serratos, who plays Rosita on The Walking Dead, has been looking unhealthy - pale and no muscle tone in her arms - but I don't get pushback for saying that because I'm female*. And I doubt @wilson10102018 would be getting pushback if he was his sons' mother instead of father.
*I might get pushback here on MFP, but I'm not counting that
I am wondering why you're feeling the need to bring up this specific person and critique her body, honestly.
And I'd also find it odd if a woman was analyzing and critiquing the bodies of the women her sons were bringing home and sharing the analysis online.
That's just me. In other families, it may be normal to treat a child's guests that way.
I brought it up to illustrate my belief that some posters are ascribing motivations to Wilson simply because he is male. When I, a female, did something similar (observing a person looked unhealthy) no one IRL got all MeToo on me.
You're also mischaracterizing what happened with Wilson - he didn't run online to critic his child's guests in real time - years later he used them as an example of his experience of what he perceived as unhealthy vegans.
Sure, there is indeed a toxic issue in our culture with relentless critique of female bodies. But I don't believe that is what is happening here.5 -
kshama2001 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »wilson10102018 wrote: »Other than getting flamed for saying my experiences, I am happy to have a lot of successful vegans weigh in, as it were. I do think that persons who assume that an adult would comment to a woman on their body shape reasonableness is pretty perverted. Where on earth would that happen? I can't imagine who would even suggest such a thing.
You assessed these women's bodies, formed conclusions, and shared those conclusions with us. It's not really that odd to conclude that you might have said something to them or let them know through your gaze and facial expressions (or other actions) that you were evaluating them and found them wanting.
I mean, I would hope we lived in a world where men weren't checking out their sons' dates and sharing their assessments online, but we clearly don't live in that world. Why is a direct comment to them the only thing you think is a bridge too far in this situation?
I think Christian Serratos, who plays Rosita on The Walking Dead, has been looking unhealthy - pale and no muscle tone in her arms - but I don't get pushback for saying that because I'm female*. And I doubt @wilson10102018 would be getting pushback if he was his sons' mother instead of father.
*I might get pushback here on MFP, but I'm not counting that
I am wondering why you're feeling the need to bring up this specific person and critique her body, honestly.
And I'd also find it odd if a woman was analyzing and critiquing the bodies of the women her sons were bringing home and sharing the analysis online.
That's just me. In other families, it may be normal to treat a child's guests that way.
I brought it up to illustrate my belief that some posters are ascribing motivations to Wilson simply because he is male. When I, a female, did something similar (observing a person looked unhealthy) no one IRL got all MeToo on me.
You're also mischaracterizing what happened with Wilson - he didn't run online to critic his child's guests in real time - years later he used them as an example of his experience of what he perceived as unhealthy vegans.
Sure, there is indeed a toxic issue in our culture with relentless critique of female bodies. But I don't believe that is what is happening here.
I don't think anybody is being "MeToo" here.
I understand this isn't real time. To me, that's not making it better. Not only is he evaluating these women for a "reasonable" body shape, he's holding on to these evaluations for years. I don't know what his motivations are for analyzing his sons' female guests that way, but I'd find it odd from a mother or a father.
Others may find it okay and it's fine for them to state that. I understand what you're expressing. Others find it less okay and maybe even part of culture that should be challenged. I think it's okay to state that too. At the end of the day, people who want to make comments about the "reasonableness" of a young woman's body are still free to do so. I don't see that part of our culture changing anytime soon. It's really the social norm rather than the exception.
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judyvalentine512 wrote: »Thought I'd add my two cents. All the fast food places are pushing these 'beyond meat' burgers and such. Looking at the ingredients, there is some thing called soy isolates. Not a good thing. There are more additives and fat in one of these burgers than a regular burger.
Also, while checking out this very subject, the proteins you get from plants, while good, not all of them are processed in the body as meat and dairy proteins, so not necessarily as good.
So, in conclusion, (my conclusion), it is better to eat a varied diet, everything in moderation. And don't forget, unless you can guarantee that your fruit and veggies are grown organically, you're getting plenty of chemicals and crap in your veggies and fruits as well.
If you are going to scare about additives, it's a weird thing to do when you are trying to make a point in favor of commercially produced meat. Sure, the only ingredient you see will be beef, but what do you think goes into making that beef? The cow doesn't grow on a cow tree. It's fed a steady diet of antibiotics (more antibiotics are used in livestock than in humans) as well as the "dreaded" soy (soybeans are a huge part of cow feed), among other things. Not that all these things are necessarily bad (although there is considerable evidence that the antibiotic use in livestock is contributing to a rise in antibiotic resistant bacteria. This isn't woo. The CDC and WHO say so: https://edition.cnn.com/2019/08/22/health/drug-resistant-salmonella-cdc-warning/index.html. https://www.who.int/news-room/detail/07-11-2017-stop-using-antibiotics-in-healthy-animals-to-prevent-the-spread-of-antibiotic-resistance). But it's a weird flex to talk about meat being pure and natural when we look at what actually goes into producing it.11 -
MostlyWater wrote: »Disagree but let everyone decide for themselves. If a vegetarian eats a lot of cheese and pasta, they're not doing themselves any favors.
This is exactly what my husband has been eating all his life + fish and sweets (he's 65) and he's in excellent physical condition, much better than most of his peers. Also, it's not just me saying this. His brother is a cardiologist. We live in Italy--carb heaven.8 -
judyvalentine512 wrote: »Thought I'd add my two cents. All the fast food places are pushing these 'beyond meat' burgers and such. Looking at the ingredients, there is some thing called soy isolates. Not a good thing. There are more additives and fat in one of these burgers than a regular burger.
Also, while checking out this very subject, the proteins you get from plants, while good, not all of them are processed in the body as meat and dairy proteins, so not necessarily as good.
So, in conclusion, (my conclusion), it is better to eat a varied diet, everything in moderation. And don't forget, unless you can guarantee that your fruit and veggies are grown organically, you're getting plenty of chemicals and crap in your veggies and fruits as well.
If you are going to scare about additives, it's a weird thing to do when you are trying to make a point in favor of commercially produced meat. Sure, the only ingredient you see will be beef, but what do you think goes into making that beef? The cow doesn't grow on a cow tree. It's fed a steady diet of antibiotics (more antibiotics are used in livestock than in humans) as well as the "dreaded" soy (soybeans are a huge part of cow feed), among other things. Not that all these things are necessarily bad (although there is considerable evidence that the antibiotic use in livestock is contributing to a rise in antibiotic resistant bacteria. This isn't woo. The CDC and WHO say so: https://edition.cnn.com/2019/08/22/health/drug-resistant-salmonella-cdc-warning/index.html. https://www.who.int/news-room/detail/07-11-2017-stop-using-antibiotics-in-healthy-animals-to-prevent-the-spread-of-antibiotic-resistance). But it's a weird flex to talk about meat being pure and natural when we look at what actually goes into producing it.
I'm not the one you quoted, but thought I'd chime in.
I'm an omnivore, and I don't buy meat that was conventionally raised, partially due to the antibiotics issue but more for my concerns about animal welfare, which were greatly influenced by Michael Pollan's The Omnivore's Dilemma, this article, which tracks the life of a typical steer : https://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/31/magazine/power-steer.html and this article, which talks about how pigs are raised: https://michaelpollan.com/articles-archive/an-animals-place/
My understanding is that corn is a bigger part of conventionally raised cattle than soy - Michael Pollan discusses extensively how cows digest grass much better than corn and the problems that arise from using corn to fatten them up faster.
Meat from animals that were never given any antibiotics ever is easily found in regular supermarkets in the three states where I've lived in the US. (It does generally cost more, so I look for sales and stock up.)
Whole Foods goes farther than supermarket brands - their meat has different "steps" representing different levels of animal welfare certification:
https://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/mission-values/animal-welfare/5-step-animal-welfare-rating
Improving the lives of farm animals, step-by-step.
At Whole Foods Market, Global Animal Partnership's Animal Welfare Certified means 100+ standards for beef, pork, chicken, lamb and turkey (except kosher turkey) in our meat department. This 5-step system not only gives you the knowledge to make informed food choices, it encourages and rewards farmers and ranchers to improve their welfare practices. So whether you’re looking for a great steak or you want to know where your roasting chicken comes from, this third-party certification system works for you. All of the beef, pork, chicken, lamb, and turkey (except kosher turkey) in our fresh meat case is certified. You’ll find a different selection in each store, but if it doesn’t meet base certification, you won’t see it because we won’t sell it. Remember: To reach even Base Certification, farms and ranches must meet more than 100 requirements!3 -
kshama2001 wrote: »judyvalentine512 wrote: »Thought I'd add my two cents. All the fast food places are pushing these 'beyond meat' burgers and such. Looking at the ingredients, there is some thing called soy isolates. Not a good thing. There are more additives and fat in one of these burgers than a regular burger.
Also, while checking out this very subject, the proteins you get from plants, while good, not all of them are processed in the body as meat and dairy proteins, so not necessarily as good.
So, in conclusion, (my conclusion), it is better to eat a varied diet, everything in moderation. And don't forget, unless you can guarantee that your fruit and veggies are grown organically, you're getting plenty of chemicals and crap in your veggies and fruits as well.
If you are going to scare about additives, it's a weird thing to do when you are trying to make a point in favor of commercially produced meat. Sure, the only ingredient you see will be beef, but what do you think goes into making that beef? The cow doesn't grow on a cow tree. It's fed a steady diet of antibiotics (more antibiotics are used in livestock than in humans) as well as the "dreaded" soy (soybeans are a huge part of cow feed), among other things. Not that all these things are necessarily bad (although there is considerable evidence that the antibiotic use in livestock is contributing to a rise in antibiotic resistant bacteria. This isn't woo. The CDC and WHO say so: https://edition.cnn.com/2019/08/22/health/drug-resistant-salmonella-cdc-warning/index.html. https://www.who.int/news-room/detail/07-11-2017-stop-using-antibiotics-in-healthy-animals-to-prevent-the-spread-of-antibiotic-resistance). But it's a weird flex to talk about meat being pure and natural when we look at what actually goes into producing it.
I'm not the one you quoted, but thought I'd chime in.
I'm an omnivore, and I don't buy meat that was conventionally raised, partially due to the antibiotics issue but more for my concerns about animal welfare, which were greatly influenced by Michael Pollan's The Omnivore's Dilemma, this article, which tracks the life of a typical steer : https://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/31/magazine/power-steer.html and this article, which talks about how pigs are raised: https://michaelpollan.com/articles-archive/an-animals-place/
My understanding is that corn is a bigger part of conventionally raised cattle than soy - Michael Pollan discusses extensively how cows digest grass much better than corn and the problems that arise from using corn to fatten them up faster.
Meat from animals that were never given any antibiotics ever is easily found in regular supermarkets in the three states where I've lived in the US. (It does generally cost more, so I look for sales and stock up.)
Whole Foods goes farther than supermarket brands - their meat has different "steps" representing different levels of animal welfare certification:
https://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/mission-values/animal-welfare/5-step-animal-welfare-rating
Improving the lives of farm animals, step-by-step.
At Whole Foods Market, Global Animal Partnership's Animal Welfare Certified means 100+ standards for beef, pork, chicken, lamb and turkey (except kosher turkey) in our meat department. This 5-step system not only gives you the knowledge to make informed food choices, it encourages and rewards farmers and ranchers to improve their welfare practices. So whether you’re looking for a great steak or you want to know where your roasting chicken comes from, this third-party certification system works for you. All of the beef, pork, chicken, lamb, and turkey (except kosher turkey) in our fresh meat case is certified. You’ll find a different selection in each store, but if it doesn’t meet base certification, you won’t see it because we won’t sell it. Remember: To reach even Base Certification, farms and ranches must meet more than 100 requirements!
But the post being responded to is talking about Beyond Burgers at fast food places, where the other option isn't a Step Five Animal Welfare Certified burger that is grass-fed and antibiotic-free, but a fast food burger.
When you're sitting at a Burger King drive-through, the choice isn't between an Impossible Whopper and the best beef available at Whole Foods. The choice is now between an Impossible Whopper and a regular Whopper (note: this is not an argument that a Whopper is a somehow unsafe or inappropriate food).
For the poster to critique fast food meat substitutes while ignoring any critique of fast food beef seems a bit unbalanced.11 -
paperpudding wrote: »I don't have any studies to hand - but being overweight is a huge factor in many diseases - cardiovascular risk( heart disease, strokes) diabetes, arthritis - to name a few obvious ones.
Do you really need studies to confirm that??
Most and some are two different words. Had ninerbuff said "some" then that wouldn't have been questionable. Never mind that age and taking part in various sports are are both very large contributors to arthritis (by which I'm assuming we're both talking about osteoarthritis). I can think of plenty of diseases and conditions for which weight isn't a large risk factor as well. Type 1 diabetes, scoliosis, various forms of hearing loss...
He also noted heredity and environmental factors...not just weight. Those three things cover the bases of the vast majority of diseases.1 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »I don't have any studies to hand - but being overweight is a huge factor in many diseases - cardiovascular risk( heart disease, strokes) diabetes, arthritis - to name a few obvious ones.
Do you really need studies to confirm that??
Most and some are two different words. Had ninerbuff said "some" then that wouldn't have been questionable. Never mind that age and taking part in various sports are are both very large contributors to arthritis (by which I'm assuming we're both talking about osteoarthritis). I can think of plenty of diseases and conditions for which weight isn't a large risk factor as well. Type 1 diabetes, scoliosis, various forms of hearing loss...
He also noted heredity and environmental factors...not just weight. Those three things cover the bases of the vast majority of diseases.
Just keep reading. Eventually you'll see a post where I apologize for misreading what he wrote. Or I guess more accurately, apologized for the drama that I caused by misreading said post.3 -
janejellyroll wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »judyvalentine512 wrote: »Thought I'd add my two cents. All the fast food places are pushing these 'beyond meat' burgers and such. Looking at the ingredients, there is some thing called soy isolates. Not a good thing. There are more additives and fat in one of these burgers than a regular burger.
Also, while checking out this very subject, the proteins you get from plants, while good, not all of them are processed in the body as meat and dairy proteins, so not necessarily as good.
So, in conclusion, (my conclusion), it is better to eat a varied diet, everything in moderation. And don't forget, unless you can guarantee that your fruit and veggies are grown organically, you're getting plenty of chemicals and crap in your veggies and fruits as well.
If you are going to scare about additives, it's a weird thing to do when you are trying to make a point in favor of commercially produced meat. Sure, the only ingredient you see will be beef, but what do you think goes into making that beef? The cow doesn't grow on a cow tree. It's fed a steady diet of antibiotics (more antibiotics are used in livestock than in humans) as well as the "dreaded" soy (soybeans are a huge part of cow feed), among other things. Not that all these things are necessarily bad (although there is considerable evidence that the antibiotic use in livestock is contributing to a rise in antibiotic resistant bacteria. This isn't woo. The CDC and WHO say so: https://edition.cnn.com/2019/08/22/health/drug-resistant-salmonella-cdc-warning/index.html. https://www.who.int/news-room/detail/07-11-2017-stop-using-antibiotics-in-healthy-animals-to-prevent-the-spread-of-antibiotic-resistance). But it's a weird flex to talk about meat being pure and natural when we look at what actually goes into producing it.
I'm not the one you quoted, but thought I'd chime in.
I'm an omnivore, and I don't buy meat that was conventionally raised, partially due to the antibiotics issue but more for my concerns about animal welfare, which were greatly influenced by Michael Pollan's The Omnivore's Dilemma, this article, which tracks the life of a typical steer : https://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/31/magazine/power-steer.html and this article, which talks about how pigs are raised: https://michaelpollan.com/articles-archive/an-animals-place/
My understanding is that corn is a bigger part of conventionally raised cattle than soy - Michael Pollan discusses extensively how cows digest grass much better than corn and the problems that arise from using corn to fatten them up faster.
Meat from animals that were never given any antibiotics ever is easily found in regular supermarkets in the three states where I've lived in the US. (It does generally cost more, so I look for sales and stock up.)
Whole Foods goes farther than supermarket brands - their meat has different "steps" representing different levels of animal welfare certification:
https://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/mission-values/animal-welfare/5-step-animal-welfare-rating
Improving the lives of farm animals, step-by-step.
At Whole Foods Market, Global Animal Partnership's Animal Welfare Certified means 100+ standards for beef, pork, chicken, lamb and turkey (except kosher turkey) in our meat department. This 5-step system not only gives you the knowledge to make informed food choices, it encourages and rewards farmers and ranchers to improve their welfare practices. So whether you’re looking for a great steak or you want to know where your roasting chicken comes from, this third-party certification system works for you. All of the beef, pork, chicken, lamb, and turkey (except kosher turkey) in our fresh meat case is certified. You’ll find a different selection in each store, but if it doesn’t meet base certification, you won’t see it because we won’t sell it. Remember: To reach even Base Certification, farms and ranches must meet more than 100 requirements!
But the post being responded to is talking about Beyond Burgers at fast food places, where the other option isn't a Step Five Animal Welfare Certified burger that is grass-fed and antibiotic-free, but a fast food burger.
When you're sitting at a Burger King drive-through, the choice isn't between an Impossible Whopper and the best beef available at Whole Foods. The choice is now between an Impossible Whopper and a regular Whopper (note: this is not an argument that a Whopper is a somehow unsafe or inappropriate food).
For the poster to critique fast food meat substitutes while ignoring any critique of fast food beef seems a bit unbalanced.
Not to mention the oddity of using the fake-meat burgers (no matter their content, as long as not poison) as a critique of a meatless diet. While some meatless eaters rely heavily on imitation meats, many of us don't - just as many meat-eaters don't rely heavily on meat-focused fast food.
(I think there's a bit of failure of imagination/understanding about meatless eating in the criticized post, especially once I include the "not necessarily as good" comment. I take that to be referring in a not-clear way to the fact that many non-animal proteins are incomplete in essential amino acids, which is true and something meatless eaters should be aware of, but "not as good" really isn't an insightful summary of the situation nor does it help people who want to omit meat eat nutritiously all the same).
This is not an attack, in intent, BTW: There's no particular reason a meat-eater needs to understand the technicalities of meatless foods and meatless eating.6 -
janejellyroll wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »judyvalentine512 wrote: »Thought I'd add my two cents. All the fast food places are pushing these 'beyond meat' burgers and such. Looking at the ingredients, there is some thing called soy isolates. Not a good thing. There are more additives and fat in one of these burgers than a regular burger.
Also, while checking out this very subject, the proteins you get from plants, while good, not all of them are processed in the body as meat and dairy proteins, so not necessarily as good.
So, in conclusion, (my conclusion), it is better to eat a varied diet, everything in moderation. And don't forget, unless you can guarantee that your fruit and veggies are grown organically, you're getting plenty of chemicals and crap in your veggies and fruits as well.
If you are going to scare about additives, it's a weird thing to do when you are trying to make a point in favor of commercially produced meat. Sure, the only ingredient you see will be beef, but what do you think goes into making that beef? The cow doesn't grow on a cow tree. It's fed a steady diet of antibiotics (more antibiotics are used in livestock than in humans) as well as the "dreaded" soy (soybeans are a huge part of cow feed), among other things. Not that all these things are necessarily bad (although there is considerable evidence that the antibiotic use in livestock is contributing to a rise in antibiotic resistant bacteria. This isn't woo. The CDC and WHO say so: https://edition.cnn.com/2019/08/22/health/drug-resistant-salmonella-cdc-warning/index.html. https://www.who.int/news-room/detail/07-11-2017-stop-using-antibiotics-in-healthy-animals-to-prevent-the-spread-of-antibiotic-resistance). But it's a weird flex to talk about meat being pure and natural when we look at what actually goes into producing it.
I'm not the one you quoted, but thought I'd chime in.
I'm an omnivore, and I don't buy meat that was conventionally raised, partially due to the antibiotics issue but more for my concerns about animal welfare, which were greatly influenced by Michael Pollan's The Omnivore's Dilemma, this article, which tracks the life of a typical steer : https://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/31/magazine/power-steer.html and this article, which talks about how pigs are raised: https://michaelpollan.com/articles-archive/an-animals-place/
My understanding is that corn is a bigger part of conventionally raised cattle than soy - Michael Pollan discusses extensively how cows digest grass much better than corn and the problems that arise from using corn to fatten them up faster.
Meat from animals that were never given any antibiotics ever is easily found in regular supermarkets in the three states where I've lived in the US. (It does generally cost more, so I look for sales and stock up.)
Whole Foods goes farther than supermarket brands - their meat has different "steps" representing different levels of animal welfare certification:
https://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/mission-values/animal-welfare/5-step-animal-welfare-rating
Improving the lives of farm animals, step-by-step.
At Whole Foods Market, Global Animal Partnership's Animal Welfare Certified means 100+ standards for beef, pork, chicken, lamb and turkey (except kosher turkey) in our meat department. This 5-step system not only gives you the knowledge to make informed food choices, it encourages and rewards farmers and ranchers to improve their welfare practices. So whether you’re looking for a great steak or you want to know where your roasting chicken comes from, this third-party certification system works for you. All of the beef, pork, chicken, lamb, and turkey (except kosher turkey) in our fresh meat case is certified. You’ll find a different selection in each store, but if it doesn’t meet base certification, you won’t see it because we won’t sell it. Remember: To reach even Base Certification, farms and ranches must meet more than 100 requirements!
But the post being responded to is talking about Beyond Burgers at fast food places, where the other option isn't a Step Five Animal Welfare Certified burger that is grass-fed and antibiotic-free, but a fast food burger.
When you're sitting at a Burger King drive-through, the choice isn't between an Impossible Whopper and the best beef available at Whole Foods. The choice is now between an Impossible Whopper and a regular Whopper (note: this is not an argument that a Whopper is a somehow unsafe or inappropriate food).
For the poster to critique fast food meat substitutes while ignoring any critique of fast food beef seems a bit unbalanced.
Not to mention the oddity of using the fake-meat burgers (no matter their content, as long as not poison) as a critique of a meatless diet. While some meatless eaters rely heavily on imitation meats, many of us don't - just as many meat-eaters don't rely heavily on meat-focused fast food.
(I think there's a bit of failure of imagination/understanding about meatless eating in the criticized post, especially once I include the "not necessarily as good" comment. I take that to be referring in a not-clear way to the fact that many non-animal proteins are incomplete in essential amino acids, which is true and something meatless eaters should be aware of, but "not as good" really isn't an insightful summary of the situation nor does it help people who want to omit meat eat nutritiously all the same).
This is not an attack, in intent, BTW: There's no particular reason a meat-eater needs to understand the technicalities of meatless foods and meatless eating.
Exactly. It's very easy to be vegan/vegetarian and never eat a fake-meat burger. They're a complete luxury item.
Eating fast food is a choice -- for both vegans and non-vegans.5 -
janejellyroll wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »judyvalentine512 wrote: »Thought I'd add my two cents. All the fast food places are pushing these 'beyond meat' burgers and such. Looking at the ingredients, there is some thing called soy isolates. Not a good thing. There are more additives and fat in one of these burgers than a regular burger.
Also, while checking out this very subject, the proteins you get from plants, while good, not all of them are processed in the body as meat and dairy proteins, so not necessarily as good.
So, in conclusion, (my conclusion), it is better to eat a varied diet, everything in moderation. And don't forget, unless you can guarantee that your fruit and veggies are grown organically, you're getting plenty of chemicals and crap in your veggies and fruits as well.
If you are going to scare about additives, it's a weird thing to do when you are trying to make a point in favor of commercially produced meat. Sure, the only ingredient you see will be beef, but what do you think goes into making that beef? The cow doesn't grow on a cow tree. It's fed a steady diet of antibiotics (more antibiotics are used in livestock than in humans) as well as the "dreaded" soy (soybeans are a huge part of cow feed), among other things. Not that all these things are necessarily bad (although there is considerable evidence that the antibiotic use in livestock is contributing to a rise in antibiotic resistant bacteria. This isn't woo. The CDC and WHO say so: https://edition.cnn.com/2019/08/22/health/drug-resistant-salmonella-cdc-warning/index.html. https://www.who.int/news-room/detail/07-11-2017-stop-using-antibiotics-in-healthy-animals-to-prevent-the-spread-of-antibiotic-resistance). But it's a weird flex to talk about meat being pure and natural when we look at what actually goes into producing it.
I'm not the one you quoted, but thought I'd chime in.
I'm an omnivore, and I don't buy meat that was conventionally raised, partially due to the antibiotics issue but more for my concerns about animal welfare, which were greatly influenced by Michael Pollan's The Omnivore's Dilemma, this article, which tracks the life of a typical steer : https://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/31/magazine/power-steer.html and this article, which talks about how pigs are raised: https://michaelpollan.com/articles-archive/an-animals-place/
My understanding is that corn is a bigger part of conventionally raised cattle than soy - Michael Pollan discusses extensively how cows digest grass much better than corn and the problems that arise from using corn to fatten them up faster.
Meat from animals that were never given any antibiotics ever is easily found in regular supermarkets in the three states where I've lived in the US. (It does generally cost more, so I look for sales and stock up.)
Whole Foods goes farther than supermarket brands - their meat has different "steps" representing different levels of animal welfare certification:
https://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/mission-values/animal-welfare/5-step-animal-welfare-rating
Improving the lives of farm animals, step-by-step.
At Whole Foods Market, Global Animal Partnership's Animal Welfare Certified means 100+ standards for beef, pork, chicken, lamb and turkey (except kosher turkey) in our meat department. This 5-step system not only gives you the knowledge to make informed food choices, it encourages and rewards farmers and ranchers to improve their welfare practices. So whether you’re looking for a great steak or you want to know where your roasting chicken comes from, this third-party certification system works for you. All of the beef, pork, chicken, lamb, and turkey (except kosher turkey) in our fresh meat case is certified. You’ll find a different selection in each store, but if it doesn’t meet base certification, you won’t see it because we won’t sell it. Remember: To reach even Base Certification, farms and ranches must meet more than 100 requirements!
But the post being responded to is talking about Beyond Burgers at fast food places, where the other option isn't a Step Five Animal Welfare Certified burger that is grass-fed and antibiotic-free, but a fast food burger.
When you're sitting at a Burger King drive-through, the choice isn't between an Impossible Whopper and the best beef available at Whole Foods. The choice is now between an Impossible Whopper and a regular Whopper (note: this is not an argument that a Whopper is a somehow unsafe or inappropriate food).
For the poster to critique fast food meat substitutes while ignoring any critique of fast food beef seems a bit unbalanced.
Good point. I stopped eating fast food burgers after watching "Food, Inc." When I want a burger, I make it at home from beef that was not conventionally raised. I plan more so that fast food is not imperative. I do get fast food - occasionally - but it's a conscious choice.
Also, I don't buy the best burger available from Whole Foods - I buy the cheapest burger available from WF when it's on sale.0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »judyvalentine512 wrote: »Thought I'd add my two cents. All the fast food places are pushing these 'beyond meat' burgers and such. Looking at the ingredients, there is some thing called soy isolates. Not a good thing. There are more additives and fat in one of these burgers than a regular burger.
Also, while checking out this very subject, the proteins you get from plants, while good, not all of them are processed in the body as meat and dairy proteins, so not necessarily as good.
So, in conclusion, (my conclusion), it is better to eat a varied diet, everything in moderation. And don't forget, unless you can guarantee that your fruit and veggies are grown organically, you're getting plenty of chemicals and crap in your veggies and fruits as well.
If you are going to scare about additives, it's a weird thing to do when you are trying to make a point in favor of commercially produced meat. Sure, the only ingredient you see will be beef, but what do you think goes into making that beef? The cow doesn't grow on a cow tree. It's fed a steady diet of antibiotics (more antibiotics are used in livestock than in humans) as well as the "dreaded" soy (soybeans are a huge part of cow feed), among other things. Not that all these things are necessarily bad (although there is considerable evidence that the antibiotic use in livestock is contributing to a rise in antibiotic resistant bacteria. This isn't woo. The CDC and WHO say so: https://edition.cnn.com/2019/08/22/health/drug-resistant-salmonella-cdc-warning/index.html. https://www.who.int/news-room/detail/07-11-2017-stop-using-antibiotics-in-healthy-animals-to-prevent-the-spread-of-antibiotic-resistance). But it's a weird flex to talk about meat being pure and natural when we look at what actually goes into producing it.
I'm not the one you quoted, but thought I'd chime in.
I'm an omnivore, and I don't buy meat that was conventionally raised, partially due to the antibiotics issue but more for my concerns about animal welfare, which were greatly influenced by Michael Pollan's The Omnivore's Dilemma, this article, which tracks the life of a typical steer : https://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/31/magazine/power-steer.html and this article, which talks about how pigs are raised: https://michaelpollan.com/articles-archive/an-animals-place/
My understanding is that corn is a bigger part of conventionally raised cattle than soy - Michael Pollan discusses extensively how cows digest grass much better than corn and the problems that arise from using corn to fatten them up faster.
Meat from animals that were never given any antibiotics ever is easily found in regular supermarkets in the three states where I've lived in the US. (It does generally cost more, so I look for sales and stock up.)
Whole Foods goes farther than supermarket brands - their meat has different "steps" representing different levels of animal welfare certification:
https://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/mission-values/animal-welfare/5-step-animal-welfare-rating
Improving the lives of farm animals, step-by-step.
At Whole Foods Market, Global Animal Partnership's Animal Welfare Certified means 100+ standards for beef, pork, chicken, lamb and turkey (except kosher turkey) in our meat department. This 5-step system not only gives you the knowledge to make informed food choices, it encourages and rewards farmers and ranchers to improve their welfare practices. So whether you’re looking for a great steak or you want to know where your roasting chicken comes from, this third-party certification system works for you. All of the beef, pork, chicken, lamb, and turkey (except kosher turkey) in our fresh meat case is certified. You’ll find a different selection in each store, but if it doesn’t meet base certification, you won’t see it because we won’t sell it. Remember: To reach even Base Certification, farms and ranches must meet more than 100 requirements!
But the post being responded to is talking about Beyond Burgers at fast food places, where the other option isn't a Step Five Animal Welfare Certified burger that is grass-fed and antibiotic-free, but a fast food burger.
When you're sitting at a Burger King drive-through, the choice isn't between an Impossible Whopper and the best beef available at Whole Foods. The choice is now between an Impossible Whopper and a regular Whopper (note: this is not an argument that a Whopper is a somehow unsafe or inappropriate food).
For the poster to critique fast food meat substitutes while ignoring any critique of fast food beef seems a bit unbalanced.
Good point. I stopped eating fast food burgers after watching "Food, Inc." When I want a burger, I make it at home from beef that was not conventionally raised. I plan more so that fast food is not imperative. I do get fast food - occasionally - but it's a conscious choice.
Also, I don't buy the best burger available from Whole Foods - I buy the cheapest burger available from WF when it's on sale.
Yeah I think Fast Food Nation is what put the nail in the coffin for me with regards to eating fast food. That said, I was an impressionable teenager when it came out and it was around that time I was also terrified of mad cow (which was rather baseless given that I was living in the US, but again, I was a young teenager).0 -
For me, it was an ethical decision because I don’t want to harm animals and want to do what’s best for the environment long term. I did not expect any major healthy changes when I eliminated animal products but have noticed some including better digestion, less bloating, more energy, haven’t gotten sick since. This is just my experience.2
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I strongly disagree. I was vegan for almost 9 years (whole food plant based) and vegetarian before that. I got very sick and felt miserable. I started eating meat and felt better in less than a month! All this plant based documentaries and commercials is propaganda. It's the newest fad and everyone is jumping on the train. The key is balance. Eat good quality food from plants and animals.8
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judyvalentine512 wrote: »All the fast food places are pushing these 'beyond meat' burgers and such. Looking at the ingredients, there is some thing called soy isolates. Not a good thing.
Actually, I do better with soy protein isolates than with the whole soybean (no problem with tofu or tempeh). Likewise, I have no trouble with wheat protein isolate or wheat gluten but something else in wheat is problematic if I eat too much of it and too often. So I'm happy when the proteins of such foods are isolated from the rest because that makes it much easier on my body.
By the way, the first thing the body does with any protein molecule from any source is to break it down into component amino acids. Those amino acids are then used to synthesize our own protein molecules used for various purposes. Proteins from meat are not better than proteins from plants for human purposes, and all essential amino acids on our list (the ones we must get in food) are plentiful in all plants.
The body keeps the amino acids for a while (even up to a few days) and picks out the right ratios for our proteins from the general pool. So although certain animal foods are called "complete protein" because, as from animals related to humans, they have similar amino acid ratios in their proteins -- we really don't have to worry about that. We get plenty of amino acids for our use from eating a variety of plant-based foods. Some vegan protein powders will blend different plant protein sources to come up with an amino acid profile the same as for egg, for example, so they can put "complete protein" on the label, but we really don't need to do that in a single meal or even in a single day.
But for some people like me - processing that isolates the protein from other parts of both sources may be beneficial because of problems with the non-protein parts.
Any natural food is going to be a complicated mixture of chemicals. Just look at the actual chemical composition of any natural fat or oil. This isn't due to processing but is the way they are in the plant or animal.
So additives are not automatically bad. As a chemist, I am not really worried about artificial flavors since they are likely to be closely related to flavor-carrying molecules in the natural product or even identical. So the body already knows how to handle them. The natural product's flavor is just much more complex because the flavor comes from many chemicals in its composition rather than just the one used in a flavoring agent. I prefer the natural flavors if I can get them simply because they often taste better as a result.
I am much more dubious about artificial colors because they are typically quite different from color-carrying molecules in natural food. So I have a strong preference for coloring agents that are natural colors from plants.
Processing aids and other additives that show up in processed foods need to be evaluated on a case by case basis. I personally really hate the taste of natural stevia... Fine with sugar alcohols like xylitol, which are extracted from plants anyway, but not fine with the various artificial sweeteners common today because I don't like the taste.0
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