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Thoughts on Beyond Burger and other fake meat
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live2dream wrote: »just_Tomek wrote: »I watched a talk show with Marco Borges, saying plant-based is the healthy way to go. BUT avoid fake meat because it's all highly processed.
Opinions? Just curious.
Is it to be avoided... nope. Unless you want to save money, then yeap.
Is it highly processed... yeap. Just look at the ingredients.
I would never buy it, high in calories, low in protein, low in nutrients and way way overpriced.... comparing to meat.
Seriously why do people comment when they have no idea what they are talking about. It's the same amount of protein and calories as a cow burger, except without the cholesterol. Healthy to eat daily- NO. But no one should be eating any kind of burger with that high of fat daily. Once in a while to kill a craving without killing an animal- YES.
Quoting so people read this twice.
Quoting so no one can read it. Muahahahaha.
Now, about those vanilla sugar cookies....0 -
They look gross. Not much of a meat eater here, but if I wanted meat why would I eat something fake? Pretend meat,lol. And in my experience most fake stuff has alot of sodium, I wouldn't know about this product, as I walked past it in the store, like I said, it looked gross.
Because I'm a vegetarian and don't want to kill an animal?5 -
As for using more than 5 ingredients in cooking...
Well, my homemade sourdough bread has 4. So if I use it in a cheese and Marmite sandwich with a bit of leafy salad... OH NOES, THE PROCESSED!4 -
live2dream wrote: »just_Tomek wrote: »I watched a talk show with Marco Borges, saying plant-based is the healthy way to go. BUT avoid fake meat because it's all highly processed.
Opinions? Just curious.
Is it to be avoided... nope. Unless you want to save money, then yeap.
Is it highly processed... yeap. Just look at the ingredients.
I would never buy it, high in calories, low in protein, low in nutrients and way way overpriced.... comparing to meat.
Seriously why do people comment when they have no idea what they are talking about. It's the same amount of protein and calories as a cow burger, except without the cholesterol. Healthy to eat daily- NO. But no one should be eating any kind of burger with that high of fat daily. Once in a while to kill a craving without killing an animal- YES.
Quoting so people read this twice.
Quoting so no one can read it. Muahahahaha.
Now, about those vanilla sugar cookies....
90 calories apiece assuming you get 4 dozen out of the recipe: http://www.flourarrangements.org/2016/04/simple-vanilla-cookies/ and worth every one!
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estherdragonbat wrote: »How is soy not plant-based?
Yeah, puzzling.estherdragonbat wrote: »How is soy not plant-based?
Maybe they meant because soy is one of the plants that is mostly GMO. Not sure.
I don't care about GMO, but despite that most of the tofu and tempeh I eat is not GMO, it's not that hard to avoid. I'd say that someone intending to eat a soy-based food like tofu or tempeh will likely have an easier time finding non-GMO options, because that's what's more commonly sold. Typically GMO soy is the stuff in other products (including a huge amount of products that are not vegetarian or vegan).
Anyway, being GMO doesn't make something not plant based.
Also, the BeyondBeef stuff does not contain soy anyway, and some of the other products that may or may not be included in this category are bean-based. (Note: I don't think it's at all clear how to separate what is and is not in the category given the objections -- pretty much all the bean patties and more traditional soy-or seiten- or quorn- or TVP-based meat subs, often marketed as meat subs -- would have more than 5 ingredients and would unquestionably be processed, so I assume those freaking out about Beyond or Impossible being bad for those reasons or being "gross" or "fake" or whatnot would be raising the same issues about them.
I do think this is pretty odd. I mean, chicken nuggets squick me out (they seem to me like a fake food make with chicken), but that's my personal thing and I don't go around insisting they are therefore gross and no one else should eat them without health risk or that people should prefer chicken cooked with their bones, as I do. And personally I think the Beyond product looks like ground beef (both of which I think look a little unpleasant, but in that I cook with ground beef I don't see that as an issue with Beyond (which I haven't tried yet, but this discussion is making me want to).
(Since Just_Tomek's position came up, I'll note that he slammed the entire category and then elsewhere talked about eating the Morningstar stuff which I would include in this category and which were in the Food & Wine taste test of the category, so I think we all should probably relax on the grand generalizations.)3 -
live2dream wrote: »just_Tomek wrote: »I watched a talk show with Marco Borges, saying plant-based is the healthy way to go. BUT avoid fake meat because it's all highly processed.
Opinions? Just curious.
Is it to be avoided... nope. Unless you want to save money, then yeap.
Is it highly processed... yeap. Just look at the ingredients.
I would never buy it, high in calories, low in protein, low in nutrients and way way overpriced.... comparing to meat.
Seriously why do people comment when they have no idea what they are talking about. It's the same amount of protein and calories as a cow burger, except without the cholesterol. Healthy to eat daily- NO. But no one should be eating any kind of burger with that high of fat daily. Once in a while to kill a craving without killing an animal- YES.
If you're using 80/20 ground beef yes, more or less. If you're using 95% lean (which is what I would use) then no, not at all.
95% lean ground beef
80% lean ground beef
Impossible burger
And for fun - Beyond burger, whose nutrition facts I couldn't actually find on their website but there are pictures on a Medium blog post which is what I linked to.
Just for the record, I did a comparison of all of those upthread, including the BeyondBeef product, and a couple of others I'd personally consider part of the fake meat category.
[Edit: heh, just checked, it was way back on page one! https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/comment/44688325/#Comment_44688325]
I think the intent of the Impossible and Beyond products is to compete with/be compared with 80% beef (which is what is usually used in restaurants, and what some taste purists will use at home too, commonly).
It doesn't compare with lean right now, but I bet there will be products that do soon enough.
That said, Just_Tomek has acknowledged (happily) eating some other meat substitute products that are often included in the category, and were included in my list (and which would be dismissed as problematic by many of those commenting here), so this entire discussion continues to suffer for a lack of focus on actual specifics. (My list was of the ones in the F&W taste test.)
For example, "oh, they are bad because soy is bad" -- Beyond doesn't have soy, many products that others are saying are fine because they are meat subs that taste less like meat (I guess? I haven't had Beyond or Impossible or most of the others either).
Not that there's anything wrong with soy.1 -
As a small farmer that grows or raises the majority of what my family consumes I HATE getting advise from people who don't grow or raise anything. I have found that the loudest most annoying people who preach about not eating meat and only eating organic don't grow anything they consume. I totally support people to eat whatever they want and live the lifestyle that makes you feel the best physically and emotionally. When it comes to food I am a firm believer that if you aren't growing or raising it yourself you shouldn't be on your soap box lecturing others.
I have a close friend that chose to go vegetarian after working as a butcher for years. He turned his entire small backyard into a garden. He lives in Colorado and his yard is 20 feet by 20 feet and he grows what he can with the changing seasons. He even has a small enclosed greenhouse to grow small fruit trees on his back porch. He has been promoting his neighbors to grow more even if they don't choose to go full vegan or vegetarian. He gives his neighbors seeds from his crops and helps them set up irrigation systems and teaches them about soil PH and other gardening tips.
If you want to sway people one way or the other lead by example.
"You catch more bees with honey than vinegar"6 -
gearhead426hemi wrote: »As a small farmer that grows or raises the majority of what my family consumes I HATE getting advise from people who don't grow or raise anything. I have found that the loudest most annoying people who preach about not eating meat and only eating organic don't grow anything they consume. I totally support people to eat whatever they want and live the lifestyle that makes you feel the best physically and emotionally. When it comes to food I am a firm believer that if you aren't growing or raising it yourself you shouldn't be on your soap box lecturing others.
I have a close friend that chose to go vegetarian after working as a butcher for years. He turned his entire small backyard into a garden. He lives in Colorado and his yard is 20 feet by 20 feet and he grows what he can with the changing seasons. He even has a small enclosed greenhouse to grow small fruit trees on his back porch. He has been promoting his neighbors to grow more even if they don't choose to go full vegan or vegetarian. He gives his neighbors seeds from his crops and helps them set up irrigation systems and teaches them about soil PH and other gardening tips.
If you want to sway people one way or the other lead by example.
"You catch more bees with honey than vinegar"
This is kind of like saying you can't be against child abuse unless you're a parent or you can't be against police brutality unless you're a police officer or you can't be against vote fraud unless you run for office or you can't be against kicking a dog unless you're operating a dog rescue.
Our methods of food production have a significant impact on our environment, our economy, and our health. Our choices about which foods to eat impact humans who work in food production, as well as animals who are used in it. Decisions about what to eat are deeply involved in our social, emotional, and family lives.
I completely reject the idea that consumers should "shut up" about food unless they become involved in food production. I shouldn't need a greenhouse in order to validate my mere right to express an opinion.
Does being involved in food production give someone a unique perspective on issues related to food? Absolutely. But I don't think it should be the only perspective that is allowed.10 -
Re: 95% lean for a burger? That is more blasphemous than a plant burger. ;-) But seriously 80/20 is the standard even if you grind your own at home.
Hey no one said you had to come over.
You'll be missing a lot of other things, but more for me I suppose. Never mind that "standard" and "grind your own at home" are almost silly to have in the same sentence when talking about most people in the US. The vast majority of people aren't grinding their own beef. I don't for burgers (which mind you, I rarely make) but I will for sausage. 1 -
gearhead426hemi wrote: »I have found that the loudest most annoying people who preach about not eating meat and only eating organic don't grow anything they consume.
Who here do you think has been "preaching" about not eating meat? If no one, I'm not understanding the post.
(I eat some meat, not that that matters for these purposes, and I do grow some of what I consume, during the season, although I supplement it since I don't have the time or ability to grow all that I eat, of course. My mom grew up on a farm and they didn't grow all of what she ate either, however.)When it comes to food I am a firm believer that if you aren't growing or raising it yourself you shouldn't be on your soap box lecturing others.
Again, what people here, coming from a personal position of limiting or excluding animal products, have been "lecturing" others? It seems like YOU are, and I think some of those who are convinced the meat substitutes are unhealthy or "gross" were, but I didn't see it from a vegan POV.5 -
janejellyroll wrote: »gearhead426hemi wrote: »As a small farmer that grows or raises the majority of what my family consumes I HATE getting advise from people who don't grow or raise anything. I have found that the loudest most annoying people who preach about not eating meat and only eating organic don't grow anything they consume. I totally support people to eat whatever they want and live the lifestyle that makes you feel the best physically and emotionally. When it comes to food I am a firm believer that if you aren't growing or raising it yourself you shouldn't be on your soap box lecturing others.
I have a close friend that chose to go vegetarian after working as a butcher for years. He turned his entire small backyard into a garden. He lives in Colorado and his yard is 20 feet by 20 feet and he grows what he can with the changing seasons. He even has a small enclosed greenhouse to grow small fruit trees on his back porch. He has been promoting his neighbors to grow more even if they don't choose to go full vegan or vegetarian. He gives his neighbors seeds from his crops and helps them set up irrigation systems and teaches them about soil PH and other gardening tips.
If you want to sway people one way or the other lead by example.
"You catch more bees with honey than vinegar"
This is kind of like saying you can't be against child abuse unless you're a parent or you can't be against police brutality unless you're a police officer or you can't be against vote fraud unless you run for office or you can't be against kicking a dog unless you're operating a dog rescue.
Our methods of food production have a significant impact on our environment, our economy, and our health. Our choices about which foods to eat impact humans who work in food production, as well as animals who are used in it. Decisions about what to eat are deeply involved in our social, emotional, and family lives.
I completely reject the idea that consumers should "shut up" about food unless they become involved in food production. I shouldn't need a greenhouse in order to validate my mere right to express an opinion.
Does being involved in food production give someone a unique perspective on issues related to food? Absolutely. But I don't think it should be the only perspective that is allowed.
I had the same thoughts when I first read the post as well until I read it a second time. After re-reading the post, I interpreted it that its fine for people to eat whatever they like, and live whatever lifestyle they like, but don't go lecturing others about their lifestyles if you don't have experience actually producing the food. A person can be anti GMO, and that is fine, but its when they start lecturing others that they shouldn't be eating GMO foods, then it becomes annoying, especially if they have never grown a crop in their lives. A better way to look at it might be comparing it to the anti-vax movement who is extremely outspoken despite the fact that a lot of their views contradict actual science. When an uneducated person starts lecturing others it can easily go from annoying to dangerous.
To tie that back to the original topic, I can't say that I see much value for myself in the impossible whopper, or any other fake meat products, because nutritionally, there isn't a huge advantage one way or the other. I do want to try them just out of curiosity though, because I see no real negatives either. Although I might not personally find value, I am not going to lecture anyone else that does prefer it, or try to sway them one way or another. Jane, I know you have ethical reasons for being vegan, and I respect that even if we have different views on that subject. The reason it is easy to respect your view is because you aren't lecturing others who think differently than you do. I don't want to put words in the previous posters mouth, but that is what I took away from their post.8 -
gearhead426hemi wrote: »As a small farmer that grows or raises the majority of what my family consumes I HATE getting advise from people who don't grow or raise anything. I have found that the loudest most annoying people who preach about not eating meat and only eating organic don't grow anything they consume. I totally support people to eat whatever they want and live the lifestyle that makes you feel the best physically and emotionally. When it comes to food I am a firm believer that if you aren't growing or raising it yourself you shouldn't be on your soap box lecturing others.
I have a close friend that chose to go vegetarian after working as a butcher for years. He turned his entire small backyard into a garden. He lives in Colorado and his yard is 20 feet by 20 feet and he grows what he can with the changing seasons. He even has a small enclosed greenhouse to grow small fruit trees on his back porch. He has been promoting his neighbors to grow more even if they don't choose to go full vegan or vegetarian. He gives his neighbors seeds from his crops and helps them set up irrigation systems and teaches them about soil PH and other gardening tips.
If you want to sway people one way or the other lead by example.
"You catch more bees with honey than vinegar"
I think you're conflating multiple things here.
I applaud that you're growing/raising most of your family's food, and agree that gives you an unusual and insightful view on the processes involved.
To exaggerate a bit about cases we sometimes see here, it's a completely separate notion that it's more persuasive to avoid acting like a flag-waving, virtue-signaling, slogan-slinging, self-satisfied jerk. That's a whole different matter, and that's where the honey and vinegar come in.
I'd submit that - if you're not vegetarian or vegan - there are likely to be things about that way of eating that you don't know. Why should you? It makes sense for vegetarians and vegans to give advice about those things (not to you, because you don't need that advice). That need not be preaching.
I also don't see why people shouldn't share their reasons for doing what they do, be it veganism or growing/raising all their own food. Where it crosses the line IMO is when they disparage people who do otherwise, or act like their way is the only way, or as if they have the ultimate definitive opinion.
P.S. Since apparently one needs credentials, I'll be honest: I've never grown all my own food. At times in my life, I've grown significant amounts of it, including canning and preserving it in various ways but never the majority of my food. I don't do that anymore, circumstances having changed. FWIW, I've met some loud and annoying preachy people who did "walk the walk", and they thought that if they could, everyone should. The pure-theorists don't corner the market on being jerks. Personality, and the modes of attempting persuasion that grow out of it, are separate from life practices.6 -
janejellyroll wrote: »gearhead426hemi wrote: »As a small farmer that grows or raises the majority of what my family consumes I HATE getting advise from people who don't grow or raise anything. I have found that the loudest most annoying people who preach about not eating meat and only eating organic don't grow anything they consume. I totally support people to eat whatever they want and live the lifestyle that makes you feel the best physically and emotionally. When it comes to food I am a firm believer that if you aren't growing or raising it yourself you shouldn't be on your soap box lecturing others.
I have a close friend that chose to go vegetarian after working as a butcher for years. He turned his entire small backyard into a garden. He lives in Colorado and his yard is 20 feet by 20 feet and he grows what he can with the changing seasons. He even has a small enclosed greenhouse to grow small fruit trees on his back porch. He has been promoting his neighbors to grow more even if they don't choose to go full vegan or vegetarian. He gives his neighbors seeds from his crops and helps them set up irrigation systems and teaches them about soil PH and other gardening tips.
If you want to sway people one way or the other lead by example.
"You catch more bees with honey than vinegar"
This is kind of like saying you can't be against child abuse unless you're a parent or you can't be against police brutality unless you're a police officer or you can't be against vote fraud unless you run for office or you can't be against kicking a dog unless you're operating a dog rescue.
Our methods of food production have a significant impact on our environment, our economy, and our health. Our choices about which foods to eat impact humans who work in food production, as well as animals who are used in it. Decisions about what to eat are deeply involved in our social, emotional, and family lives.
I completely reject the idea that consumers should "shut up" about food unless they become involved in food production. I shouldn't need a greenhouse in order to validate my mere right to express an opinion.
Does being involved in food production give someone a unique perspective on issues related to food? Absolutely. But I don't think it should be the only perspective that is allowed.
I had the same thoughts when I first read the post as well until I read it a second time. After re-reading the post, I interpreted it that its fine for people to eat whatever they like, and live whatever lifestyle they like, but don't go lecturing others about their lifestyles if you don't have experience actually producing the food. A person can be anti GMO, and that is fine, but its when they start lecturing others that they shouldn't be eating GMO foods, then it becomes annoying, especially if they have never grown a crop in their lives. A better way to look at it might be comparing it to the anti-vax movement who is extremely outspoken despite the fact that a lot of their views contradict actual science. When an uneducated person starts lecturing others it can easily go from annoying to dangerous.
To tie that back to the original topic, I can't say that I see much value for myself in the impossible whopper, or any other fake meat products, because nutritionally, there isn't a huge advantage one way or the other. I do want to try them just out of curiosity though, because I see no real negatives either. Although I might not personally find value, I am not going to lecture anyone else that does prefer it, or try to sway them one way or another. Jane, I know you have ethical reasons for being vegan, and I respect that even if we have different views on that subject. The reason it is easy to respect your view is because you aren't lecturing others who think differently than you do. I don't want to put words in the previous posters mouth, but that is what I took away from their post.
I think I was coming from the point of view that sometimes if someone says "I think this particular practice is wrong," then that is perceived as lecturing by some people (although I wouldn't agree it necessarily falls into that category).
So my response to the post was to defend everyone's ability to speak out about what issues they perceive within food production, even if they aren't necessarily involved in it other than as a consumer. For some of us, that will be about how animals are treated. Others may have environmental concerns or concerns about how food is distributed to different parts of the world or even concerns about obesity rates or how human workers are treated.
As people on this planet with relationships to the earth, other humans, and other creatures, we're already deeply involved. We're literally consuming this stuff - it's hard to think of a more intimate and impactful relationship than our connection to the food we eat.3 -
@janejellyroll & @lemurcat2 I am simply saying I totally support everyone eating as they choose. Not one person on this thread has done it but 99% of the time these threads make the keyboard trolls seem to come out of the woodwork. Heck some people might think of me as a troll.
I am simply saying people who have never raised or grown anything truly have no idea how or where their food is harvested, grown or raised. Everyone is entitled to their opinions of course which forums like these are meant for. Open dialect and discussions are a great way to learn things and possibly have your own opinions swayed or validated.
As far as the original topic, I won't be trying any meat replacers any time soon it just seems a little weird to me. If I want to eat a burger I want it to be meat. If I want to eat vegetables I will eat vegetables.6 -
gearhead426hemi wrote: »@janejellyroll & @lemurcat2 I am simply saying I totally support everyone eating as they choose. Not one person on this thread has done it but 99% of the time these threads make the keyboard trolls seem to come out of the woodwork. Heck some people might think of me as a troll. I am simply saying people who have never raised or grown anything truly have no idea how or where their food is harvested, grown or raised. Everyone is entitled to their opinions of course which forums like these are meant for. Open dialect and discussions are a great way to learn things and possibly have your own opinions swayed or validated.
As far as the original topic, I won't be trying any meat replacers any time soon it just seems a little weird to me. If I want to eat a burger I want it to be meat. If I want to eat vegetables I will eat vegetables.
Those of us who aren't involved in food production are capable of learning about it though. I would never assume that an interested and motivated person couldn't learn about my particular industry just because they weren't working in it.
We regularly accept that humans are capable of forming informed opinions on a variety of subjects without direct engagement (and even so, I would argue that being a consumer is direct engagement with food production in many ways). Why would food production be somehow excluded?5 -
I am a meat lover and nothing can replace real meat in my personal opinion but if you want a vegan meat than try cooking one at home... i found lots of easy recipes and it turned out great1
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gearhead426hemi wrote: »@janejellyroll & @lemurcat2 I am simply saying I totally support everyone eating as they choose. Not one person on this thread has done it but 99% of the time these threads make the keyboard trolls seem to come out of the woodwork.
Okay, we are on the same page. I do see a number of people lecturing others about how one should never eat the products being discussed, that they are somehow bad alternatives for anything, even a Whopper, but I haven't see anyone lecturing others about how they should not eat meat, as you seemed to be suggesting.
It's probably a hobby horse of mine that others find weird, but when someone pops up in a thread and takes people in general to task for doing something, I don't read it as about the population at large (because why would you address them on the specific thread) but as scolding the other participants in the thread. Others may think this is an odd way to take it, I dunno.I am simply saying people who have never raised or grown anything truly have no idea how or where their food is harvested, grown or raised.
I would disagree with this. First, of course, many of us have grown some of our own food, but I would agree that we still don't have first hand knowledge about what it is like to try to grow all, or--more to the point--to be a working farmer. My grandparents on one side were farmers, as were other relatives on that side, and my dad's grandparents on his mom's side (who he spent some of his childhood with) had been farmers and continued to live in what was then a farming community (now it's largely industrial farms and the small towns that were are largely abandoned, which I find sad although economically my view may be purely romantic).
Second, we can learn about how our food is grown or raised in different ways, from research to personal visits and talking to people. Although I am not a purist (partly because I like having a variety of vegetables and fruit at this time of year), I do prefer to buy from local smaller farms as much as possible, in part likely due to my family history and the romanticism I noted, but also because I think it's good to have surviving, working smaller farms as well as industrialized agriculture (I'm not talking about organic which is not a big thing for me except that to some extent it is a marketing point for some small farms). I also do prefer having some knowledge about how the animals involved are treated. But I will also say that this is a luxury I can afford and I don't assume everyone can or should.
I will also note -- as Jane said -- that people comment and think they know about fields they are not in all the time. Everyone in the world certainly thinks they are an expert about mine! (I also know that a lot of the reporting is dreadful, so will give you that.)5 -
@janejellyroll & @lemurcat2 In my opinion I think it is hard be 100% truly informed about something without getting your hands dirty or experiencing it directly for yourself. You can't believe everything you read because typically the person writing it has a biased opinion to start with. Most people tend to only read things that directly agree with what they want to hear not the opposition.
Man we definitely have fallen down the rabbit hole on this one. If you want to eat meat, eat meat, if you want to eat plants eat plants.
Hopefully the one thing we can all agree on is we are lucky to have so many choices and the freedom to pick and choose what we want to eat. Farmer keyboard troll checking out.
5 -
gearhead426hemi wrote: »@janejellyroll & @lemurcat2 I am simply saying I totally support everyone eating as they choose. Not one person on this thread has done it but 99% of the time these threads make the keyboard trolls seem to come out of the woodwork.
Okay, we are on the same page. I do see a number of people lecturing others about how one should never eat the products being discussed, that they are somehow bad alternatives for anything, even a Whopper, but I haven't see anyone lecturing others about how they should not eat meat, as you seemed to be suggesting.
It's probably a hobby horse of mine that others find weird, but when someone pops up in a thread and takes people in general to task for doing something, I don't read it as about the population at large (because why would you address them on the specific thread) but as scolding the other participants in the thread. Others may think this is an odd way to take it, I dunno.I am simply saying people who have never raised or grown anything truly have no idea how or where their food is harvested, grown or raised.
I would disagree with this. First, of course, many of us have grown some of our own food, but I would agree that we still don't have first hand knowledge about what it is like to try to grow all, or--more to the point--to be a working farmer. My grandparents on one side were farmers, as were other relatives on that side, and my dad's grandparents on his mom's side (who he spent some of his childhood with) had been farmers and continued to live in what was then a farming community (now it's largely industrial farms and the small towns that were are largely abandoned, which I find sad although economically my view may be purely romantic).
Second, we can learn about how our food is grown or raised in different ways, from research to personal visits and talking to people. Although I am not a purist (partly because I like having a variety of vegetables and fruit at this time of year), I do prefer to buy from local smaller farms as much as possible, in part likely due to my family history and the romanticism I noted, but also because I think it's good to have surviving, working smaller farms as well as industrialized agriculture (I'm not talking about organic which is not a big thing for me except that to some extent it is a marketing point for some small farms). I also do prefer having some knowledge about how the animals involved are treated. But I will also say that this is a luxury I can afford and I don't assume everyone can or should.
I will also note -- as Jane said -- that people comment and think they know about fields they are not in all the time. Everyone in the world certainly thinks they are an expert about mine! (I also know that a lot of the reporting is dreadful, so will give you that.)
I would argue that a theoretical hobby gardener could easily have less of an idea about what it's like to be a working farmer than someone who has never grown a vegetable but widely exposed themselves to different sources of information about modern agriculture. There's often a big difference between doing something for fun and doing something because it's how you pay your bills.
(Not that the hobby gardener couldn't also educate themselves about modern agricultural practices, but I don't know if raising some tomatoes makes one automatically more qualified to have an opinion about dairy farming).4 -
Jossy_star wrote: »I am a meat lover and nothing can replace real meat in my personal opinion but if you want a vegan meat than try cooking one at home... i found lots of easy recipes and it turned out great
But why should vegans only eat burgers at home? We have money, if businesses are willing to serve us, why should we not have access to burgers prepared outside our own homes?
Why shouldn't people curious about veganism or even just looking to add a couple meatless options to their fast food choices be able to do this?7
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