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Thoughts on Beyond Burger and other fake meat

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Replies

  • janejellyroll
    janejellyroll Posts: 25,763 Member
    @janejellyroll & @lemurcat2 In my opinion I think it is hard be 100% truly informed about something without getting your hands dirty or experiencing it directly for yourself. You can't believe everything you read because typically the person writing it has a biased opinion to start with. Most people tend to only read things that directly agree with what they want to hear not the opposition.

    Man we definitely have fallen down the rabbit hole on this one. :D If you want to eat meat, eat meat, if you want to eat plants eat plants.

    Hopefully the one thing we can all agree on is we are lucky to have so many choices and the freedom to pick and choose what we want to eat. Farmer keyboard troll checking out. :D>:)

    I don't think anyone is arguing that we should believe "everything" we read. I do believe that reality is a thing that we can grasp and that we shouldn't throw up our hands and decide that nothing is true.

    I'm constantly reading people advocating for the use of animals for food. That's a mainstream belief in our culture. So if your argument is that vegans are never encountering the counterposition to veganism, I'm going to have to disagree. We are constantly reading and hearing the justifications for using animals for food.

    Can it be challenging to understand reality? Yes. But that's not enough to convince me that we shouldn't even try.
  • lemurcat2
    lemurcat2 Posts: 7,885 Member
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    @janejellyroll & @lemurcat2 I am simply saying I totally support everyone eating as they choose. Not one person on this thread has done it but 99% of the time these threads make the keyboard trolls seem to come out of the woodwork.

    Okay, we are on the same page. I do see a number of people lecturing others about how one should never eat the products being discussed, that they are somehow bad alternatives for anything, even a Whopper, but I haven't see anyone lecturing others about how they should not eat meat, as you seemed to be suggesting.

    It's probably a hobby horse of mine that others find weird, but when someone pops up in a thread and takes people in general to task for doing something, I don't read it as about the population at large (because why would you address them on the specific thread) but as scolding the other participants in the thread. Others may think this is an odd way to take it, I dunno.
    I am simply saying people who have never raised or grown anything truly have no idea how or where their food is harvested, grown or raised.

    I would disagree with this. First, of course, many of us have grown some of our own food, but I would agree that we still don't have first hand knowledge about what it is like to try to grow all, or--more to the point--to be a working farmer. My grandparents on one side were farmers, as were other relatives on that side, and my dad's grandparents on his mom's side (who he spent some of his childhood with) had been farmers and continued to live in what was then a farming community (now it's largely industrial farms and the small towns that were are largely abandoned, which I find sad although economically my view may be purely romantic).

    Second, we can learn about how our food is grown or raised in different ways, from research to personal visits and talking to people. Although I am not a purist (partly because I like having a variety of vegetables and fruit at this time of year), I do prefer to buy from local smaller farms as much as possible, in part likely due to my family history and the romanticism I noted, but also because I think it's good to have surviving, working smaller farms as well as industrialized agriculture (I'm not talking about organic which is not a big thing for me except that to some extent it is a marketing point for some small farms). I also do prefer having some knowledge about how the animals involved are treated. But I will also say that this is a luxury I can afford and I don't assume everyone can or should.

    I will also note -- as Jane said -- that people comment and think they know about fields they are not in all the time. Everyone in the world certainly thinks they are an expert about mine! (I also know that a lot of the reporting is dreadful, so will give you that.)

    I would argue that a theoretical hobby gardener could easily have less of an idea about what it's like to be a working farmer than someone who has never grown a vegetable but widely exposed themselves to different sources of information about modern agriculture. There's often a big difference between doing something for fun and doing something because it's how you pay your bills.

    (Not that the hobby gardener couldn't also educate themselves about modern agricultural practices, but I don't know if raising some tomatoes makes one automatically more qualified to have an opinion about dairy farming).

    If I suggested otherwise, I didn't mean to. I would certainly agree with that.
  • janejellyroll
    janejellyroll Posts: 25,763 Member
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    @janejellyroll & @lemurcat2 I am simply saying I totally support everyone eating as they choose. Not one person on this thread has done it but 99% of the time these threads make the keyboard trolls seem to come out of the woodwork.

    Okay, we are on the same page. I do see a number of people lecturing others about how one should never eat the products being discussed, that they are somehow bad alternatives for anything, even a Whopper, but I haven't see anyone lecturing others about how they should not eat meat, as you seemed to be suggesting.

    It's probably a hobby horse of mine that others find weird, but when someone pops up in a thread and takes people in general to task for doing something, I don't read it as about the population at large (because why would you address them on the specific thread) but as scolding the other participants in the thread. Others may think this is an odd way to take it, I dunno.
    I am simply saying people who have never raised or grown anything truly have no idea how or where their food is harvested, grown or raised.

    I would disagree with this. First, of course, many of us have grown some of our own food, but I would agree that we still don't have first hand knowledge about what it is like to try to grow all, or--more to the point--to be a working farmer. My grandparents on one side were farmers, as were other relatives on that side, and my dad's grandparents on his mom's side (who he spent some of his childhood with) had been farmers and continued to live in what was then a farming community (now it's largely industrial farms and the small towns that were are largely abandoned, which I find sad although economically my view may be purely romantic).

    Second, we can learn about how our food is grown or raised in different ways, from research to personal visits and talking to people. Although I am not a purist (partly because I like having a variety of vegetables and fruit at this time of year), I do prefer to buy from local smaller farms as much as possible, in part likely due to my family history and the romanticism I noted, but also because I think it's good to have surviving, working smaller farms as well as industrialized agriculture (I'm not talking about organic which is not a big thing for me except that to some extent it is a marketing point for some small farms). I also do prefer having some knowledge about how the animals involved are treated. But I will also say that this is a luxury I can afford and I don't assume everyone can or should.

    I will also note -- as Jane said -- that people comment and think they know about fields they are not in all the time. Everyone in the world certainly thinks they are an expert about mine! (I also know that a lot of the reporting is dreadful, so will give you that.)

    I would argue that a theoretical hobby gardener could easily have less of an idea about what it's like to be a working farmer than someone who has never grown a vegetable but widely exposed themselves to different sources of information about modern agriculture. There's often a big difference between doing something for fun and doing something because it's how you pay your bills.

    (Not that the hobby gardener couldn't also educate themselves about modern agricultural practices, but I don't know if raising some tomatoes makes one automatically more qualified to have an opinion about dairy farming).

    If I suggested otherwise, I didn't mean to. I would certainly agree with that.

    No, this was a case of me being unclear -- I was more adding to what you had said, not at all arguing against something I thought you'd said. Sorry!
  • Mov3mor3
    Mov3mor3 Posts: 96 Member
    edited February 2020
    pg5qw8zt169w.jpg

    Oh my. I don't want any of those ingredients. Well..water and salt for those pedantics.
  • lemurcat2
    lemurcat2 Posts: 7,885 Member
    edited February 2020
    After41 wrote: »
    1 g fiber according to this.

    The photo you included in your own post has 3 g.
  • lynn_glenmont
    lynn_glenmont Posts: 10,089 Member
    Sylphadora wrote: »
    Sylphadora wrote: »
    Sylphadora wrote: »
    Nope

    Care to share what your specific concern is?

    Sure. The 21 reasons in the ingredient list

    You avoid beet juice?

    I hate beet with a passion so yes, I do avoid it, but I'm more worried about all the vegetable seed oils, starches and sugars. Also, anything with more than 5 ingredients is a frankenfood. Have you ever used 21 ingredients in a recipe?

    All the time. Sauerbraten. Chicken-sausage-veggie stew. Beef-barley-veg soup. Some of my stir-fries.
  • paperpudding
    paperpudding Posts: 9,261 Member
    After41 wrote: »
    pg5qw8zt169w.jpg

    Oh my. I don't want any of those ingredients. Well..water and salt for those pedantics.

    I am not familiar with all those ingredients - not saying I dont want them, just not familiar with them.

    But several I am and would have no issue at all - since i know I eat them in other things already - yeast extract is in many products, sunflower oil is standard type of cooking oil, potato starch is from potatoes, I eat lots of them, I presume beet juice is in the beetroots i eat, and citrus fruit extract is extracted from the oranges and mandarines I eat.....


    Credentials: I am not vegetarian and I have not tried meat substitute burgers.
    I dont like burgers of any sort, too hard to get your mouth around them without getting messy -but I do occasionally eat a vegetarian patty or ball, sometimes in a roll Subway style - eg falafel.
    But I see that as 'openly vegetarian' rather than pretending to be like meat vegetarian (hope that makes sense)

  • lynn_glenmont
    lynn_glenmont Posts: 10,089 Member
    Jossy_star wrote: »
    I am a meat lover and nothing can replace real meat in my personal opinion but if you want a vegan meat than try cooking one at home... i found lots of easy recipes and it turned out great

    Can you clarify? Because it sounds as though you're suggesting that non-vegans shouldn't have to suffer the disgusting sight of people eating plant-based "meat" in public.
  • AlabasterVerve
    AlabasterVerve Posts: 3,171 Member
    edited February 2020
    MikePTY wrote: »
    After41 wrote: »
    pg5qw8zt169w.jpg

    Oh my. I don't want any of those ingredients. Well..water and salt for those pedantics.

    It's okay to not want something. You don't have to eat the burger, It's such a niche item anyway. I just hope this fixation on ingredients in general (not the ingredients in this specific burger) is not causing anxiety around food. I personally want every single one of these ingredients because each one serves a purpose, otherwise it wouldn't be there. From nutritional profile to taste to color to texture to storage safely. I'll take it.

    If it makes you feel any better, most people seem to only really care about these type of ingredients when they are in a meat replacement.

    To be fair, a lot of the concern is because animal foods are nutritious, staple foods. When you replace them with ultra processed/novel foods there's good reason for caution. When you see how much money is being spent to create this market it's even more concerning.
  • AlabasterVerve
    AlabasterVerve Posts: 3,171 Member
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    MikePTY wrote: »
    After41 wrote: »
    pg5qw8zt169w.jpg

    Oh my. I don't want any of those ingredients. Well..water and salt for those pedantics.

    It's okay to not want something. You don't have to eat the burger, It's such a niche item anyway. I just hope this fixation on ingredients in general (not the ingredients in this specific burger) is not causing anxiety around food. I personally want every single one of these ingredients because each one serves a purpose, otherwise it wouldn't be there. From nutritional profile to taste to color to texture to storage safely. I'll take it.

    If it makes you feel any better, most people seem to only really care about these type of ingredients when they are in a meat replacement.

    To be fair, a lot of the concern is because animal foods are nutritious, staple foods. When you replace them with ultra processed/novel foods there's good reason for caution. When you see how much money is being spent to create this market it's even more concerning.

    In some sense, protein powder is also a replacement for animal protein, is about as ultra-processed as food gets, and there's a lot of money being spent to create that market, too. It seems like the range of reactions is different. Why?

    (For clarity, I'm not criticizing either product, or the people who eat them.)

    I think protein powders are seen more as a supplement than a replacement food--or at least that's my impression.
  • aokoye
    aokoye Posts: 3,495 Member
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    MikePTY wrote: »
    After41 wrote: »
    pg5qw8zt169w.jpg

    Oh my. I don't want any of those ingredients. Well..water and salt for those pedantics.

    It's okay to not want something. You don't have to eat the burger, It's such a niche item anyway. I just hope this fixation on ingredients in general (not the ingredients in this specific burger) is not causing anxiety around food. I personally want every single one of these ingredients because each one serves a purpose, otherwise it wouldn't be there. From nutritional profile to taste to color to texture to storage safely. I'll take it.

    If it makes you feel any better, most people seem to only really care about these type of ingredients when they are in a meat replacement.

    To be fair, a lot of the concern is because animal foods are nutritious, staple foods. When you replace them with ultra processed/novel foods there's good reason for caution. When you see how much money is being spent to create this market it's even more concerning.

    In some sense, protein powder is also a replacement for animal protein, is about as ultra-processed as food gets, and there's a lot of money being spent to create that market, too. It seems like the range of reactions is different. Why?

    (For clarity, I'm not criticizing either product, or the people who eat them.)

    I think protein powders are seen more as a supplement than a replacement food--or at least that's my impression.

    Except people are consuming protein powder when they could get protein from other sources, animal or vegetable. It is acting as a replacement for another food. Sure there are people who see it as a supplement, but it's replacing another food source. Note that I don't have any thoughts with regards to the health benefits of consuming or not consuming protein powder.
  • AlabasterVerve
    AlabasterVerve Posts: 3,171 Member
    aokoye wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    MikePTY wrote: »
    After41 wrote: »
    pg5qw8zt169w.jpg

    Oh my. I don't want any of those ingredients. Well..water and salt for those pedantics.

    It's okay to not want something. You don't have to eat the burger, It's such a niche item anyway. I just hope this fixation on ingredients in general (not the ingredients in this specific burger) is not causing anxiety around food. I personally want every single one of these ingredients because each one serves a purpose, otherwise it wouldn't be there. From nutritional profile to taste to color to texture to storage safely. I'll take it.

    If it makes you feel any better, most people seem to only really care about these type of ingredients when they are in a meat replacement.

    To be fair, a lot of the concern is because animal foods are nutritious, staple foods. When you replace them with ultra processed/novel foods there's good reason for caution. When you see how much money is being spent to create this market it's even more concerning.

    In some sense, protein powder is also a replacement for animal protein, is about as ultra-processed as food gets, and there's a lot of money being spent to create that market, too. It seems like the range of reactions is different. Why?

    (For clarity, I'm not criticizing either product, or the people who eat them.)

    I think protein powders are seen more as a supplement than a replacement food--or at least that's my impression.

    Except people are consuming protein powder when they could get protein from other sources, animal or vegetable. It is acting as a replacement for another food. Sure there are people who see it as a supplement, but it's replacing another food source. Note that I don't have any thoughts with regards to the health benefits of consuming or not consuming protein powder.

    I don't think protein powder is viewed that way--bars and shakes are not mainstream meals. It's not sold in the meat case--it's in the diet, supplement, and health isles/stores.

    The aim is not to create/satisfy a niche market with these alternate proteins. Have you read this from EAT-Lancet?

    "However, the scale of change to the food system is unlikely to be successful if left to the individual or the whim of consumer choice. This change requires reframing at the population and systemic level. By contrast, hard policy interventions include laws, fiscal measures, subsidies and penalties, trade reconfiguration,and other economic and structural measures."

    These types of statements, the lack of supporting science and the money involved should give everyone pause.
  • onward1
    onward1 Posts: 386 Member
    ceiswyn wrote: »
    onward1 wrote: »
    They look gross. Not much of a meat eater here, but if I wanted meat why would I eat something fake? Pretend meat,lol. And in my experience most fake stuff has alot of sodium, I wouldn't know about this product, as I walked past it in the store, like I said, it looked gross.

    Because I'm a vegetarian and don't want to kill an animal?

    I had no idea that there's vegan's out there who are craving meat, interesting. Does that mean you don't use any leather products, as leather is from an animal ?
  • onward1
    onward1 Posts: 386 Member


    As far as the original topic, I won't be trying any meat replacers any time soon it just seems a little weird to me. If I want to eat a burger I want it to be meat. If I want to eat vegetables I will eat vegetables. [/quote]

    ^This. No judgement here, eat what you like. Beyond burger is fake meat and the fact that it's made to look real is comical to me, sorry if that offends anyone. Personally, I don't eat burgers, or much meat, but when I want a NY strip steak stuffed with bleu cheese, then ya, I want the real deal.
  • amusedmonkey
    amusedmonkey Posts: 10,330 Member
    edited February 2020
    onward1 wrote: »
    As far as the original topic, I won't be trying any meat replacers any time soon it just seems a little weird to me. If I want to eat a burger I want it to be meat. If I want to eat vegetables I will eat vegetables.

    ^This. No judgement here, eat what you like. Beyond burger is fake meat and the fact that it's made to look real is comical to me, sorry if that offends anyone. Personally, I don't eat burgers, or much meat, but when I want a NY strip steak stuffed with bleu cheese, then ya, I want the real deal.

    Having options is a good thing :wink:

    Some vegans do like meat and miss it but struggle with the idea of eating real animals. If there wasn't a market for such a product it wouldn't have existed - there are people who prefer the fake thing for one reason or another. Thankfully, food preferences are personal and don't carry any inherent superiority.

    If I had the choice, personally, I would go for the fake meat every time. I imagine beyond burger tastes close enough to the real thing but with less "meatiness". It's the meaty aftertaste that I dislike about meat and my burger is usually full of add ons and condiments to drown down the meaty aftertaste. I like burgers because of the way they make the bread taste, so close enough to the real thing but not the real thing would hit the spot for me.

    *Edited to fix quotes
  • mtaratoot
    mtaratoot Posts: 14,184 Member
    I'm still waiting for Soylent Green.
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 34,102 Member
    aokoye wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    MikePTY wrote: »
    After41 wrote: »
    pg5qw8zt169w.jpg

    Oh my. I don't want any of those ingredients. Well..water and salt for those pedantics.

    It's okay to not want something. You don't have to eat the burger, It's such a niche item anyway. I just hope this fixation on ingredients in general (not the ingredients in this specific burger) is not causing anxiety around food. I personally want every single one of these ingredients because each one serves a purpose, otherwise it wouldn't be there. From nutritional profile to taste to color to texture to storage safely. I'll take it.

    If it makes you feel any better, most people seem to only really care about these type of ingredients when they are in a meat replacement.

    To be fair, a lot of the concern is because animal foods are nutritious, staple foods. When you replace them with ultra processed/novel foods there's good reason for caution. When you see how much money is being spent to create this market it's even more concerning.

    In some sense, protein powder is also a replacement for animal protein, is about as ultra-processed as food gets, and there's a lot of money being spent to create that market, too. It seems like the range of reactions is different. Why?

    (For clarity, I'm not criticizing either product, or the people who eat them.)

    I think protein powders are seen more as a supplement than a replacement food--or at least that's my impression.

    Except people are consuming protein powder when they could get protein from other sources, animal or vegetable. It is acting as a replacement for another food. Sure there are people who see it as a supplement, but it's replacing another food source. Note that I don't have any thoughts with regards to the health benefits of consuming or not consuming protein powder.

    I don't think protein powder is viewed that way--bars and shakes are not mainstream meals. It's not sold in the meat case--it's in the diet, supplement, and health isles/stores.

    The aim is not to create/satisfy a niche market with these alternate proteins. Have you read this from EAT-Lancet?

    "However, the scale of change to the food system is unlikely to be successful if left to the individual or the whim of consumer choice. This change requires reframing at the population and systemic level. By contrast, hard policy interventions include laws, fiscal measures, subsidies and penalties, trade reconfiguration,and other economic and structural measures."

    These types of statements, the lack of supporting science and the money involved should give everyone pause.

    I agree that there's potentially some interesting debate over in that direction, about the macro-scale implications if the ambitions of some faux-meat producers really get traction. It's multi-dimensional: Both camps have strong lobbies (one more mature), there are variant ecological implications, certainly there are economic implications, there may be nutritional implications (perhaps in the realm beyond known macro/micronutrient needs), and much more.

    That wasn't really the focus of the discussion though, at the point you entered with a comment about relative nutrition, the more micro-focused aspect of the situation that was in play at the time.

    The focus was on why the nutritional implications and ultra-processed-ness of faux meat products seems to get more attention (mostly negative) than other equally ultra-processed products. I think there's a cultural aspect there, some psychological factors, some emotion - not necessarily in you, personally - but in the seeming overall tendency for faux meats to catch an extra-special amount of critique over processing and ingredients.

    We've probably beaten that dead horse enough, though. I just wanted to point out that I felt there was a shift of scale happening in these few posts, and agree that there could be a lively debate on those more macro-level implications, too., even though it's not the same debate. :)
  • Mov3mor3
    Mov3mor3 Posts: 96 Member
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    After41 wrote: »
    1 g fiber according to this.

    The photo you included in your own post has 3 g.

    It was quoted from an old post someone in the forum posted. 3 g is way too much for someone who would eat 2 or 3 servings of this.