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Thoughts on Beyond Burger and other fake meat
Replies
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gearhead426hemi wrote: »@janejellyroll & @lemurcat2 In my opinion I think it is hard be 100% truly informed about something without getting your hands dirty or experiencing it directly for yourself. You can't believe everything you read because typically the person writing it has a biased opinion to start with. Most people tend to only read things that directly agree with what they want to hear not the opposition.
Man we definitely have fallen down the rabbit hole on this one.
If you want to eat meat, eat meat, if you want to eat plants eat plants.
Hopefully the one thing we can all agree on is we are lucky to have so many choices and the freedom to pick and choose what we want to eat. Farmer keyboard troll checking out.
I don't think anyone is arguing that we should believe "everything" we read. I do believe that reality is a thing that we can grasp and that we shouldn't throw up our hands and decide that nothing is true.
I'm constantly reading people advocating for the use of animals for food. That's a mainstream belief in our culture. So if your argument is that vegans are never encountering the counterposition to veganism, I'm going to have to disagree. We are constantly reading and hearing the justifications for using animals for food.
Can it be challenging to understand reality? Yes. But that's not enough to convince me that we shouldn't even try.1 -
janejellyroll wrote: »gearhead426hemi wrote: »@janejellyroll & @lemurcat2 I am simply saying I totally support everyone eating as they choose. Not one person on this thread has done it but 99% of the time these threads make the keyboard trolls seem to come out of the woodwork.
Okay, we are on the same page. I do see a number of people lecturing others about how one should never eat the products being discussed, that they are somehow bad alternatives for anything, even a Whopper, but I haven't see anyone lecturing others about how they should not eat meat, as you seemed to be suggesting.
It's probably a hobby horse of mine that others find weird, but when someone pops up in a thread and takes people in general to task for doing something, I don't read it as about the population at large (because why would you address them on the specific thread) but as scolding the other participants in the thread. Others may think this is an odd way to take it, I dunno.I am simply saying people who have never raised or grown anything truly have no idea how or where their food is harvested, grown or raised.
I would disagree with this. First, of course, many of us have grown some of our own food, but I would agree that we still don't have first hand knowledge about what it is like to try to grow all, or--more to the point--to be a working farmer. My grandparents on one side were farmers, as were other relatives on that side, and my dad's grandparents on his mom's side (who he spent some of his childhood with) had been farmers and continued to live in what was then a farming community (now it's largely industrial farms and the small towns that were are largely abandoned, which I find sad although economically my view may be purely romantic).
Second, we can learn about how our food is grown or raised in different ways, from research to personal visits and talking to people. Although I am not a purist (partly because I like having a variety of vegetables and fruit at this time of year), I do prefer to buy from local smaller farms as much as possible, in part likely due to my family history and the romanticism I noted, but also because I think it's good to have surviving, working smaller farms as well as industrialized agriculture (I'm not talking about organic which is not a big thing for me except that to some extent it is a marketing point for some small farms). I also do prefer having some knowledge about how the animals involved are treated. But I will also say that this is a luxury I can afford and I don't assume everyone can or should.
I will also note -- as Jane said -- that people comment and think they know about fields they are not in all the time. Everyone in the world certainly thinks they are an expert about mine! (I also know that a lot of the reporting is dreadful, so will give you that.)
I would argue that a theoretical hobby gardener could easily have less of an idea about what it's like to be a working farmer than someone who has never grown a vegetable but widely exposed themselves to different sources of information about modern agriculture. There's often a big difference between doing something for fun and doing something because it's how you pay your bills.
(Not that the hobby gardener couldn't also educate themselves about modern agricultural practices, but I don't know if raising some tomatoes makes one automatically more qualified to have an opinion about dairy farming).
If I suggested otherwise, I didn't mean to. I would certainly agree with that.1 -
janejellyroll wrote: »gearhead426hemi wrote: »@janejellyroll & @lemurcat2 I am simply saying I totally support everyone eating as they choose. Not one person on this thread has done it but 99% of the time these threads make the keyboard trolls seem to come out of the woodwork.
Okay, we are on the same page. I do see a number of people lecturing others about how one should never eat the products being discussed, that they are somehow bad alternatives for anything, even a Whopper, but I haven't see anyone lecturing others about how they should not eat meat, as you seemed to be suggesting.
It's probably a hobby horse of mine that others find weird, but when someone pops up in a thread and takes people in general to task for doing something, I don't read it as about the population at large (because why would you address them on the specific thread) but as scolding the other participants in the thread. Others may think this is an odd way to take it, I dunno.I am simply saying people who have never raised or grown anything truly have no idea how or where their food is harvested, grown or raised.
I would disagree with this. First, of course, many of us have grown some of our own food, but I would agree that we still don't have first hand knowledge about what it is like to try to grow all, or--more to the point--to be a working farmer. My grandparents on one side were farmers, as were other relatives on that side, and my dad's grandparents on his mom's side (who he spent some of his childhood with) had been farmers and continued to live in what was then a farming community (now it's largely industrial farms and the small towns that were are largely abandoned, which I find sad although economically my view may be purely romantic).
Second, we can learn about how our food is grown or raised in different ways, from research to personal visits and talking to people. Although I am not a purist (partly because I like having a variety of vegetables and fruit at this time of year), I do prefer to buy from local smaller farms as much as possible, in part likely due to my family history and the romanticism I noted, but also because I think it's good to have surviving, working smaller farms as well as industrialized agriculture (I'm not talking about organic which is not a big thing for me except that to some extent it is a marketing point for some small farms). I also do prefer having some knowledge about how the animals involved are treated. But I will also say that this is a luxury I can afford and I don't assume everyone can or should.
I will also note -- as Jane said -- that people comment and think they know about fields they are not in all the time. Everyone in the world certainly thinks they are an expert about mine! (I also know that a lot of the reporting is dreadful, so will give you that.)
I would argue that a theoretical hobby gardener could easily have less of an idea about what it's like to be a working farmer than someone who has never grown a vegetable but widely exposed themselves to different sources of information about modern agriculture. There's often a big difference between doing something for fun and doing something because it's how you pay your bills.
(Not that the hobby gardener couldn't also educate themselves about modern agricultural practices, but I don't know if raising some tomatoes makes one automatically more qualified to have an opinion about dairy farming).
If I suggested otherwise, I didn't mean to. I would certainly agree with that.
No, this was a case of me being unclear -- I was more adding to what you had said, not at all arguing against something I thought you'd said. Sorry!3 -
Oh my. I don't want any of those ingredients. Well..water and salt for those pedantics.1 -
Oh my. I don't want any of those ingredients. Well..water and salt for those pedantics.
It's okay to not want something. You don't have to eat the burger, It's such a niche item anyway. I just hope this fixation on ingredients in general (not the ingredients in this specific burger) is not causing anxiety around food. I personally want every single one of these ingredients because each one serves a purpose, otherwise it wouldn't be there. From nutritional profile to taste to color to texture to storage safely. I'll take it.8 -
gearhead426hemi wrote: »@janejellyroll & @lemurcat2 I am simply saying I totally support everyone eating as they choose. Not one person on this thread has done it but 99% of the time these threads make the keyboard trolls seem to come out of the woodwork. Heck some people might think of me as a troll. I am simply saying people who have never raised or grown anything truly have no idea how or where their food is harvested, grown or raised. Everyone is entitled to their opinions of course which forums like these are meant for. Open dialect and discussions are a great way to learn things and possibly have your own opinions swayed or validated.
As far as the original topic, I won't be trying any meat replacers any time soon it just seems a little weird to me. If I want to eat a burger I want it to be meat. If I want to eat vegetables I will eat vegetables.
So because I live in a city and can't raise a cow or grow a garden in my 850 sqft apartment, I can't comment on the food supply? That doesn't really make any sense, and just seems designed to shut people up from debating or discussing a specific topic. Especially on this topic, when the vast majority of food consumed is from commerical farming, which bares almost no resemblance to personal farming. My mother in law grows avocados, mangos, and bananas in her back yard. It doesn't make her suddenly an expert on this topic.7 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »
Oh my. I don't want any of those ingredients. Well..water and salt for those pedantics.
It's okay to not want something. You don't have to eat the burger, It's such a niche item anyway. I just hope this fixation on ingredients in general (not the ingredients in this specific burger) is not causing anxiety around food. I personally want every single one of these ingredients because each one serves a purpose, otherwise it wouldn't be there. From nutritional profile to taste to color to texture to storage safely. I'll take it.
If it makes you feel any better, most people seem to only really care about these type of ingredients when they are in a meat replacement.6 -
Sylphadora wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Sylphadora wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Sylphadora wrote: »Nope
Care to share what your specific concern is?
Sure. The 21 reasons in the ingredient list
You avoid beet juice?
I hate beet with a passion so yes, I do avoid it, but I'm more worried about all the vegetable seed oils, starches and sugars. Also, anything with more than 5 ingredients is a frankenfood. Have you ever used 21 ingredients in a recipe?
All the time. Sauerbraten. Chicken-sausage-veggie stew. Beef-barley-veg soup. Some of my stir-fries.4 -
Oh my. I don't want any of those ingredients. Well..water and salt for those pedantics.
I am not familiar with all those ingredients - not saying I dont want them, just not familiar with them.
But several I am and would have no issue at all - since i know I eat them in other things already - yeast extract is in many products, sunflower oil is standard type of cooking oil, potato starch is from potatoes, I eat lots of them, I presume beet juice is in the beetroots i eat, and citrus fruit extract is extracted from the oranges and mandarines I eat.....
Credentials: I am not vegetarian and I have not tried meat substitute burgers.
I dont like burgers of any sort, too hard to get your mouth around them without getting messy -but I do occasionally eat a vegetarian patty or ball, sometimes in a roll Subway style - eg falafel.
But I see that as 'openly vegetarian' rather than pretending to be like meat vegetarian (hope that makes sense)
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Jossy_star wrote: »I am a meat lover and nothing can replace real meat in my personal opinion but if you want a vegan meat than try cooking one at home... i found lots of easy recipes and it turned out great
Can you clarify? Because it sounds as though you're suggesting that non-vegans shouldn't have to suffer the disgusting sight of people eating plant-based "meat" in public.4 -
Jossy_star wrote: »I am a meat lover and nothing can replace real meat in my personal opinion but if you want a vegan meat than try cooking one at home... i found lots of easy recipes and it turned out great
Im not following this line of thought
Of course vegans could cook 'vegan meat' (was that suppossed to say vegan meal??) at home and Im sure many of them do
Just like meat eaters could cook meat burgers and meat meals at home, and most of them do.
Why cant both also have a fast food burger when they want to?? are you suggesting this is only somethiing meat eaters should do?? or maybe that nobody should do, you are against all fast food?? but that didnt seem to be what you were saying.
#confused.
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paperpudding wrote: »
I actually went through them all upthread -- they were from the website, and slightly different than shown, so I'm not sure if that's because the formulation has changed or it's a different product by the same manufacturer. Most of them were commonplace, although not necessarily together, especially if one looked up the few less familiar ones (saying this for others' benefit, not yours).
Mainly: pea protein and a couple of other proteins -- anyone who consumes protein powder or at least doesn't slam it when it comes up should be okay with those.
Next: canola oil, coconut oil, and sunflower oil -- again, pretty commonly used. I know some (paleo types?) are anti canola, but it seems to be generally recommended as a good choice for oil by nutrition types, and the main reason coconut oil is at all controversial is sat fat, so I hope those with an issue with it avoid other sources of sat fat like, well, beef.
Various other things I found very recognizable: cocoa butter, potato starch (not only is this in potatoes, its pretty commonly used in cooking), fruit extracts (as you mentioned, and again not uncommon for home cooks), beet juice, salt, potassium chloride (this is basically NoSalt).
Some might find more obscure: natural flavors (but seriously?), methylcellulose (may seem scary if you don't look it up, but it's basically the indigestible fiber in veg, and I really hope no one with an issue with this uses any fiber supplements).
It's kind of funny there are no threads proclaiming the horrors of protein bars, yet products most famous for being a sub for fast food burgers are attracting so much negativity.
And again, I've never had any of these, but I would certainly be willing to try them. I can't see anything my diet would lack for an occasional replacing a regular burger (especially a restaurant burger, which is a rare thing for me to consume anyway) with a burger made with one of these plant-based options.6 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »
Oh my. I don't want any of those ingredients. Well..water and salt for those pedantics.
It's okay to not want something. You don't have to eat the burger, It's such a niche item anyway. I just hope this fixation on ingredients in general (not the ingredients in this specific burger) is not causing anxiety around food. I personally want every single one of these ingredients because each one serves a purpose, otherwise it wouldn't be there. From nutritional profile to taste to color to texture to storage safely. I'll take it.
If it makes you feel any better, most people seem to only really care about these type of ingredients when they are in a meat replacement.
To be fair, a lot of the concern is because animal foods are nutritious, staple foods. When you replace them with ultra processed/novel foods there's good reason for caution. When you see how much money is being spent to create this market it's even more concerning.1 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »
Oh my. I don't want any of those ingredients. Well..water and salt for those pedantics.
It's okay to not want something. You don't have to eat the burger, It's such a niche item anyway. I just hope this fixation on ingredients in general (not the ingredients in this specific burger) is not causing anxiety around food. I personally want every single one of these ingredients because each one serves a purpose, otherwise it wouldn't be there. From nutritional profile to taste to color to texture to storage safely. I'll take it.
If it makes you feel any better, most people seem to only really care about these type of ingredients when they are in a meat replacement.
To be fair, a lot of the concern is because animal foods are nutritious, staple foods. When you replace them with ultra processed/novel foods there's good reason for caution. When you see how much money is being spent to create this market it's even more concerning.
In some sense, protein powder is also a replacement for animal protein, is about as ultra-processed as food gets, and there's a lot of money being spent to create that market, too. It seems like the range of reactions is different. Why?
(For clarity, I'm not criticizing either product, or the people who eat them.)6 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »
Oh my. I don't want any of those ingredients. Well..water and salt for those pedantics.
It's okay to not want something. You don't have to eat the burger, It's such a niche item anyway. I just hope this fixation on ingredients in general (not the ingredients in this specific burger) is not causing anxiety around food. I personally want every single one of these ingredients because each one serves a purpose, otherwise it wouldn't be there. From nutritional profile to taste to color to texture to storage safely. I'll take it.
If it makes you feel any better, most people seem to only really care about these type of ingredients when they are in a meat replacement.
To be fair, a lot of the concern is because animal foods are nutritious, staple foods. When you replace them with ultra processed/novel foods there's good reason for caution. When you see how much money is being spent to create this market it's even more concerning.
In some sense, protein powder is also a replacement for animal protein, is about as ultra-processed as food gets, and there's a lot of money being spent to create that market, too. It seems like the range of reactions is different. Why?
(For clarity, I'm not criticizing either product, or the people who eat them.)
I think protein powders are seen more as a supplement than a replacement food--or at least that's my impression.0 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »
Oh my. I don't want any of those ingredients. Well..water and salt for those pedantics.
It's okay to not want something. You don't have to eat the burger, It's such a niche item anyway. I just hope this fixation on ingredients in general (not the ingredients in this specific burger) is not causing anxiety around food. I personally want every single one of these ingredients because each one serves a purpose, otherwise it wouldn't be there. From nutritional profile to taste to color to texture to storage safely. I'll take it.
If it makes you feel any better, most people seem to only really care about these type of ingredients when they are in a meat replacement.
To be fair, a lot of the concern is because animal foods are nutritious, staple foods. When you replace them with ultra processed/novel foods there's good reason for caution. When you see how much money is being spent to create this market it's even more concerning.
In some sense, protein powder is also a replacement for animal protein, is about as ultra-processed as food gets, and there's a lot of money being spent to create that market, too. It seems like the range of reactions is different. Why?
(For clarity, I'm not criticizing either product, or the people who eat them.)
I think protein powders are seen more as a supplement than a replacement food--or at least that's my impression.
Except people are consuming protein powder when they could get protein from other sources, animal or vegetable. It is acting as a replacement for another food. Sure there are people who see it as a supplement, but it's replacing another food source. Note that I don't have any thoughts with regards to the health benefits of consuming or not consuming protein powder.4 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »
Oh my. I don't want any of those ingredients. Well..water and salt for those pedantics.
It's okay to not want something. You don't have to eat the burger, It's such a niche item anyway. I just hope this fixation on ingredients in general (not the ingredients in this specific burger) is not causing anxiety around food. I personally want every single one of these ingredients because each one serves a purpose, otherwise it wouldn't be there. From nutritional profile to taste to color to texture to storage safely. I'll take it.
If it makes you feel any better, most people seem to only really care about these type of ingredients when they are in a meat replacement.
To be fair, a lot of the concern is because animal foods are nutritious, staple foods. When you replace them with ultra processed/novel foods there's good reason for caution. When you see how much money is being spent to create this market it's even more concerning.
In some sense, protein powder is also a replacement for animal protein, is about as ultra-processed as food gets, and there's a lot of money being spent to create that market, too. It seems like the range of reactions is different. Why?
(For clarity, I'm not criticizing either product, or the people who eat them.)
I think protein powders are seen more as a supplement than a replacement food--or at least that's my impression.
So an ultra-processed food consumed as a supplement would be OK (in some people's minds, at least, given that they're recommended and discussed here regularly without much controversy), but an ultra-processed food consumed as a replacement food would be a bad thing (again, in some people's minds, given that meat replacements are frequently criticized here for things like this ingredient list, or just as generally unnatural).
How does my body know when I'm consuming a supplement, vs. a replacement food?
Wouldn't there be equal reason for caution? In this particular case, either one seems equally likely to be consumed as a regular part of a person's routine eating.
Repeating myself: I think it's fine for people to consume either one in support of their nutritional goals, if they find it appropriate. Personally, I don't care for or use either one. I just don't understand what distinction could be made that makes one OK and the other not OK.10 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »
Oh my. I don't want any of those ingredients. Well..water and salt for those pedantics.
It's okay to not want something. You don't have to eat the burger, It's such a niche item anyway. I just hope this fixation on ingredients in general (not the ingredients in this specific burger) is not causing anxiety around food. I personally want every single one of these ingredients because each one serves a purpose, otherwise it wouldn't be there. From nutritional profile to taste to color to texture to storage safely. I'll take it.
If it makes you feel any better, most people seem to only really care about these type of ingredients when they are in a meat replacement.
To be fair, a lot of the concern is because animal foods are nutritious, staple foods. When you replace them with ultra processed/novel foods there's good reason for caution. When you see how much money is being spent to create this market it's even more concerning.
In some sense, protein powder is also a replacement for animal protein, is about as ultra-processed as food gets, and there's a lot of money being spent to create that market, too. It seems like the range of reactions is different. Why?
(For clarity, I'm not criticizing either product, or the people who eat them.)
I think protein powders are seen more as a supplement than a replacement food--or at least that's my impression.
Except people are consuming protein powder when they could get protein from other sources, animal or vegetable. It is acting as a replacement for another food. Sure there are people who see it as a supplement, but it's replacing another food source. Note that I don't have any thoughts with regards to the health benefits of consuming or not consuming protein powder.
I don't think protein powder is viewed that way--bars and shakes are not mainstream meals. It's not sold in the meat case--it's in the diet, supplement, and health isles/stores.
The aim is not to create/satisfy a niche market with these alternate proteins. Have you read this from EAT-Lancet?
"However, the scale of change to the food system is unlikely to be successful if left to the individual or the whim of consumer choice. This change requires reframing at the population and systemic level. By contrast, hard policy interventions include laws, fiscal measures, subsidies and penalties, trade reconfiguration,and other economic and structural measures."
These types of statements, the lack of supporting science and the money involved should give everyone pause.2
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