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Thoughts on Beyond Burger and other fake meat
Replies
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Sylphadora wrote: »just_Tomek wrote: »Sylphadora wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Sylphadora wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Sylphadora wrote: »Nope
Care to share what your specific concern is?
Sure. The 21 reasons in the ingredient list
You avoid beet juice?
I hate beet with a passion so yes, I do avoid it, but I'm more worried about all the vegetable seed oils, starches and sugars. Also, anything with more than 5 ingredients is a frankenfood. Have you ever used 21 ingredients in a recipe?
Yeap. Many times.
And have you ever used methylcellulose, succinic acid, maltodextrin or any of the other chemical-sounding ingredients in a recipe? I don't buy anything with ingredients my grandmother wouldn't recognize. I'm strongly anti-processed food. The fact that it's processed vegan food doesn't make it any healthier. It still seems that it came out of a lab instead of a kitchen
I use more hydroxylic acid in my diet than I can count. Also some dihydrogen oxide and hydroxyl acid as well.14 -
Sylphadora wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Sylphadora wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Sylphadora wrote: »Nope
Care to share what your specific concern is?
Sure. The 21 reasons in the ingredient list
You avoid beet juice?
I hate beet with a passion so yes, I do avoid it, but I'm more worried about all the vegetable seed oils, starches and sugars. Also, anything with more than 5 ingredients is a frankenfood. Have you ever used 21 ingredients in a recipe?
Lots of times.3 -
Sylphadora wrote: »just_Tomek wrote: »Sylphadora wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Sylphadora wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Sylphadora wrote: »Nope
Care to share what your specific concern is?
Sure. The 21 reasons in the ingredient list
You avoid beet juice?
I hate beet with a passion so yes, I do avoid it, but I'm more worried about all the vegetable seed oils, starches and sugars. Also, anything with more than 5 ingredients is a frankenfood. Have you ever used 21 ingredients in a recipe?
Yeap. Many times.
And have you ever used methylcellulose, succinic acid, maltodextrin or any of the other chemical-sounding ingredients in a recipe? I don't buy anything with ingredients my grandmother wouldn't recognize. I'm strongly anti-processed food. The fact that it's processed vegan food doesn't make it any healthier. It still seems that it came out of a lab instead of a kitchen
I use more hydroxylic acid in my diet than I can count. Also some dihydrogen oxide and hydroxyl acid as well.
and maltodextrine is literally a powered carb that you can use as a binder - for those of us who are endurance athletes, its a supplement that can be added to drinks to give a caloric boost11 -
janejellyroll wrote: »
Yes, I've certainly witnessed people objecting to faux meat products on grounds that they curiously don't apply to the foods they eat that aren't marketed as substitutes for animal products.
Yup. You never see never see this many people swarm a protein powder thread here with these "it's highly processed!" attacks for example.12 -
sharonlemay1 wrote: »I'm here to improve my health, so fake burgers are a no go. I'm looking for real whole foods full of macro and micro nutrients, fiber etc. Those fake burgers will give a person a heart attack as easily as if that person ate beef burgers.
All foods have macronutrients, so looking for foods full of them isn't a very hard thing.
For micros, I think we have to analyze the products specifically and be clear on what it is being compared to.
The heart attack thing seems extreme. Nutrition, for the most part, is about overall diet and what we do eat, as well as dosage. I noted above that my dad quit red meat other than for special occasional (same with dairy fat) since it helped control his cholesterol, but having a rare but occasional burger (or steak, which he would typically prefer) does not have any negative effects for him.
There are arguments to be had about whether sat fat from plants have the same effects as sat fat from animal products for those who tend to have some negative responses to them -- I don't think the evidence is clear yet. But the idea that 21 ingredients = must be bad and unhealthy is, IMO, not a particularly sensible approach to nutrition.
(I'm coming from this from the perspective that one can easily have a healthful, nutrient-dense diet that includes occasional beef, and that the same is true with occasional plant-based beef substitutes. Other factors are much more important in determining whether a diet is healthful, IMO (and from what I've read of the research and from experts in the field I consider trustworthy).)4 -
Sylphadora wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Sylphadora wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Sylphadora wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Sylphadora wrote: »Nope
Care to share what your specific concern is?
Sure. The 21 reasons in the ingredient list
You avoid beet juice?
I hate beet with a passion so yes, I do avoid it, but I'm more worried about all the vegetable seed oils, starches and sugars. Also, anything with more than 5 ingredients is a frankenfood. Have you ever used 21 ingredients in a recipe?
There is no beet taste in the burger, it's added for color only.
I've frequently used more than 21 ingredients in a meal, I enjoy cooking food that is complex and highly spiced. If I'm making a Thai-style stir-fry with many different vegetables and a red curry paste from scratch, it wouldn't be at all unusual for me to wind up adding more than 21 components to the meal.
I'm amused to learn that if I offered you a three-bean salad with chopped carrots, balsamic vinegar, and olive oil, you'd reject it as a "frankenfood."
You know what I mean when I talk about frankenfoods, don't play dumb 🙄 But yes, I would reject your three-bean salad since I don't eat beans. Interesting that you chose the most innocent-sounding ingredient in that list. Why didn't you ask me if I avoid methylcellulose, or succinic acid, or maltodextrin, or expeller-pressed canola oil, or sunflower oil, or vegetalbe glycerin? 🤔 Because I do avoid all of those.
I have no idea what you mean when you say that five ingredients make something a "frankenfood" as this flies in the face of my experiences with food.
You claimed the 21 ingredients were the reason you were avoiding them, which is why I asked about a specific ingredient. I'm glad you agree that beet juice is innocent sounding, as I can't for the life of me understand why someone would object to the mere use of beets as a way to add a color to a food.
I'm sorry to hear about your various food objections, but most people aren't subject to the types of anxieties you seem to harbor around things like beans, seeds, and saccharides.13 -
Sylphadora wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Sylphadora wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Sylphadora wrote: »Nope
Care to share what your specific concern is?
Sure. The 21 reasons in the ingredient list
You avoid beet juice?
I hate beet with a passion so yes, I do avoid it, but I'm more worried about all the vegetable seed oils, starches and sugars. Also, anything with more than 5 ingredients is a frankenfood. Have you ever used 21 ingredients in a recipe?
Yes.
I don't see how the ingredient count is a rational criterion for anything, really.
I think you and I might not be terribly far apart in what our actual practice is. I prefer to moderate my consumption of foods that are mainly extracts (or lab-created ingredients) intended to deliver some single nutrient or property; or that have had a lot of the natural components processed out of them.
This is not a religious principal (using "religion" in a metaphorical sense here, BTW). I'll eat those things without fear of poisoning. My reasons have more to do with feeling there are end-cases where food-based nutrients seem to be more readily metabolized than supplements/extractives, plus the recognition that large numbers of essential or beneficial nutrients have been "discovered" in my lifetime, that were in foods all along. I don't think we're done with discoveries.
Because of that, I think eating a pretty major fraction of my diet in the form close to how it came out of the ground (or critter, or whatever) is a reasonable bet-hedge. It's also the reason why I consider "highly processed" traditional foods that have been widely eaten for centuries to be a better bet than novelties.
My personal taste-preference experience is that I usually enjoy these closer-to-origin or traditional foods more than the novel things, too; but I see that as personal idiosyncracy, kind of like some people liking asparagus when others don't.
In giving advice to others here, I still think the biggest deal is that people in general ought to strive for overall good nutrition (macros, known micros, sensible calories), and that however they choose to do that is just fine.
Beyond that, calling other people's food disparaging names doesn't seem to me very likely to be a great tactic for persuading them to avoid those foods. (I'm not at all interested in undertaking that persuasion; I'm just confused by the tactic when it seems to be used in service of advocacy. I'm not sure advocacy is what's intended by the quoted post, however, either.)
I think the key difference here is that you choose to get most of your calories from certain foods because of a rational belief that food-based nutrients are better than us (an idea I also share, although I acknowledge it has not yet been fully proven). But if a specific food appealed to you in the moment, you would probably eat it (assuming it fit into your goals, etc) because you don't have the mistaken belief that one particular meal is going to cancel out the overall healthful pattern of your diet. That is, you don't believe the food will cause inherent harm.
This, to me, is the difference between your position and the positions that strike me as more "religious."
(Apologies if I'm not accurately describing your position).2 -
Sylphadora wrote: »just_Tomek wrote: »Sylphadora wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Sylphadora wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Sylphadora wrote: »Nope
Care to share what your specific concern is?
Sure. The 21 reasons in the ingredient list
You avoid beet juice?
I hate beet with a passion so yes, I do avoid it, but I'm more worried about all the vegetable seed oils, starches and sugars. Also, anything with more than 5 ingredients is a frankenfood. Have you ever used 21 ingredients in a recipe?
Yeap. Many times.
And have you ever used methylcellulose, succinic acid, maltodextrin or any of the other chemical-sounding ingredients in a recipe? I don't buy anything with ingredients my grandmother wouldn't recognize. I'm strongly anti-processed food. The fact that it's processed vegan food doesn't make it any healthier. It still seems that it came out of a lab instead of a kitchen
I never met my grandmother (she died before I was born), but I'm pretty sure she wouldn't have recognized bok choy or a habanero pepper or an Asian pear.
Foods have inherent nutritional properties that aren't limited to the culinary understanding of our female ancestors.22 -
I tend to just read the ingredients on anything myself. If there's a bunch of unpronounceable things, I skip it. But veggie "burgers" in general have a rather short and clear ingredientlist in my experience.
One of my huuuuuuuge pet peeves.
Just because you can't pronounce an ingredient doesn't mean it's bad for you.
OP, I don't think I've ever had a plant based meat but I'd try it if the calories and protein were to my standards. And I eat boca burgers for a little something different so....
I have a PhD in biochemistry so I can pronounce all of those things and usually also have a pretty good idea of the chemical structure without looking them up. Does that mean they're healthy for me but not for someone who majored in library science or math or history?
On the topic at hand, I stay away from the Impossible Burger and Beyond Meat because I don't want something that actually attempts to mimic the texture and taste of meat (primary reasons why I became a vegetarian 26+ years ago). I do like the Morningstar Farms products and also most of the Gardein ones I've had.11 -
janejellyroll wrote: »
Yes, I've certainly witnessed people objecting to faux meat products on grounds that they curiously don't apply to the foods they eat that aren't marketed as substitutes for animal products.
Yup. You never see never see this many people swarm a protein powder thread here with these "it's highly processed!" attacks for example.
A thing I regularly find hilarious in itself: The occasional "whole foods, eat clean" flag-flyer who makes regular meals of the stuff. Nothing wrong with consuming it, IMO; but at the level of rational analysis . . . WTFlip?6 -
Personally... I don't want to eat a ton of synthesized chemicals, I have nothing against meat, so I'll stay within my comfort zone.1
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janejellyroll wrote: »Sylphadora wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Sylphadora wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Sylphadora wrote: »Nope
Care to share what your specific concern is?
Sure. The 21 reasons in the ingredient list
You avoid beet juice?
I hate beet with a passion so yes, I do avoid it, but I'm more worried about all the vegetable seed oils, starches and sugars. Also, anything with more than 5 ingredients is a frankenfood. Have you ever used 21 ingredients in a recipe?
Yes.
I don't see how the ingredient count is a rational criterion for anything, really.
I think you and I might not be terribly far apart in what our actual practice is. I prefer to moderate my consumption of foods that are mainly extracts (or lab-created ingredients) intended to deliver some single nutrient or property; or that have had a lot of the natural components processed out of them.
This is not a religious principal (using "religion" in a metaphorical sense here, BTW). I'll eat those things without fear of poisoning. My reasons have more to do with feeling there are end-cases where food-based nutrients seem to be more readily metabolized than supplements/extractives, plus the recognition that large numbers of essential or beneficial nutrients have been "discovered" in my lifetime, that were in foods all along. I don't think we're done with discoveries.
Because of that, I think eating a pretty major fraction of my diet in the form close to how it came out of the ground (or critter, or whatever) is a reasonable bet-hedge. It's also the reason why I consider "highly processed" traditional foods that have been widely eaten for centuries to be a better bet than novelties.
My personal taste-preference experience is that I usually enjoy these closer-to-origin or traditional foods more than the novel things, too; but I see that as personal idiosyncracy, kind of like some people liking asparagus when others don't.
In giving advice to others here, I still think the biggest deal is that people in general ought to strive for overall good nutrition (macros, known micros, sensible calories), and that however they choose to do that is just fine.
Beyond that, calling other people's food disparaging names doesn't seem to me very likely to be a great tactic for persuading them to avoid those foods. (I'm not at all interested in undertaking that persuasion; I'm just confused by the tactic when it seems to be used in service of advocacy. I'm not sure advocacy is what's intended by the quoted post, however, either.)
I think the key difference here is that you choose to get most of your calories from certain foods because of a rational belief that food-based nutrients are better than us (an idea I also share, although I acknowledge it has not yet been fully proven). But if a specific food appealed to you in the moment, you would probably eat it (assuming it fit into your goals, etc) because you don't have the mistaken belief that one particular meal is going to cancel out the overall healthful pattern of your diet. That is, you don't believe the food will cause inherent harm.
This, to me, is the difference between your position and the positions that strike me as more "religious."
(Apologies if I'm not accurately describing your position).
That's accurate.
But I tend to prefer low drama overall, I think. Mostly, the slogan-y ways people talk about these things ('outside perimeter of the grocery store", "clean eating", etc., in addition to ones that have popped up recently in this thread) bemuses me.
So much drama over so little . . . and not very persuasive to those who (currently) disagree. Kind of the opposite: Polarizing, probably.
E.T.A. I'm aware that my preferences are largely an example of majoring in the minors . . . or maybe minoring in the minors, since I definitely prioritize calories and macros over these details. They're my minors, and they make me happy.5 -
Sylphadora wrote: »just_Tomek wrote: »Sylphadora wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Sylphadora wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Sylphadora wrote: »Nope
Care to share what your specific concern is?
Sure. The 21 reasons in the ingredient list
You avoid beet juice?
I hate beet with a passion so yes, I do avoid it, but I'm more worried about all the vegetable seed oils, starches and sugars. Also, anything with more than 5 ingredients is a frankenfood. Have you ever used 21 ingredients in a recipe?
Yeap. Many times.
And have you ever used methylcellulose, succinic acid, maltodextrin or any of the other chemical-sounding ingredients in a recipe? I don't buy anything with ingredients my grandmother wouldn't recognize. I'm strongly anti-processed food. The fact that it's processed vegan food doesn't make it any healthier. It still seems that it came out of a lab instead of a kitchen
succinic acid link (seems to be a very: useful compound)
https://thechemco.com/chemical/succinic-acid/3 -
As usual, I was nodding along to the whole post, Ann, but especially want to emphasize the following:In giving advice to others here, I still think the biggest deal is that people in general ought to strive for overall good nutrition (macros, known micros, sensible calories), and that however they choose to do that is just fine.
Beyond that, calling other people's food disparaging names doesn't seem to me very likely to be a great tactic for persuading them to avoid those foods. (I'm not at all interested in undertaking that persuasion; I'm just confused by the tactic when it seems to be used in service of advocacy. I'm not sure advocacy is what's intended by the quoted post, however, either.)
5 -
Sylphadora wrote: »just_Tomek wrote: »Sylphadora wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Sylphadora wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Sylphadora wrote: »Nope
Care to share what your specific concern is?
Sure. The 21 reasons in the ingredient list
You avoid beet juice?
I hate beet with a passion so yes, I do avoid it, but I'm more worried about all the vegetable seed oils, starches and sugars. Also, anything with more than 5 ingredients is a frankenfood. Have you ever used 21 ingredients in a recipe?
Yeap. Many times.
And have you ever used methylcellulose, succinic acid, maltodextrin or any of the other chemical-sounding ingredients in a recipe? I don't buy anything with ingredients my grandmother wouldn't recognize. I'm strongly anti-processed food. The fact that it's processed vegan food doesn't make it any healthier. It still seems that it came out of a lab instead of a kitchen
But I do use citric acid, acetic acid, and things that include lactic acid quite regularly in recipes. So did my grandmother. Well, only a little citric acid, the prime sources being largely seasonal here, and expensive in the 1920s.
She made up for it with the acetic acid, though. I suspect she wouldn't have recognized the name, nonethess: Product labeling then wasn't what it is today, and her Swedish was better than her English (let alone chemistry) anyway.9 -
janejellyroll wrote: »
Yes, I've certainly witnessed people objecting to faux meat products on grounds that they curiously don't apply to the foods they eat that aren't marketed as substitutes for animal products.
Yup. You never see never see this many people swarm a protein powder thread here with these "it's highly processed!" attacks for example.
Which is kind of ironic given that the primary ingredient in the BeyondBeef product seems to be pea protein. I don't eat protein powder currently, but I'd be hardpressed to come up with a good explanation for why pea protein is somehow bad for you.
Other ingredients:
(2) canola oil (some might avoid it, but its usually considered one of the better sources of added fat -- see https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/multimedia-article/podcast-diet-fat/)
(3) coconut oil (some treat it with skepticism because sat fat, but many claim it is a health food, and I'd be curious if all those bemoaning the BB product avoid coconut oil. For the record, I prefer olive and avocado on a routine basis, but also use coconut.)
(4) rice protein (see pea protein, above)
(5) natural flavors (in a huge number of packaged products, I guess if you 100% avoid them, that would be a reason, but I don't think an argument has been made for why they would be damaging)
(6) cocoa butter (I eat chocolate)
(7) mung bean protein (see pea protein, above)
(8) methylcellulose (non-digestible thickener, not much different IMO than the cellulose one will get from eating non starchy veg and certainly should not be a problem for anyone who uses fiber supplements, although I don't)
(9) potato starch (I've used this in cooking, and I eat potatoes anyway)
(10) apple extract (fruit extracts are pretty common in cooking, and I'm not sure why this would be problematic)
(11) pomegranate extract (see apple extract, above)
(12) salt (oh, the horror!)
(13) potassium chloride (hope you would also avoid anything with NoSalt; if you want a warning about this, here: https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/17452-salt-substitutes, but we are talking about more extensive amounts)
(14) vinegar (problem?)
(15) lemon juice concentrate (problem?)
(16) sunflower lecithin (again, I'm not seeing the problem)
and, finally, (17) beet juice (for color!)
That's all I'm seeing on the ingredients list, which is here: https://www.beyondmeat.com/products/beyond-beef/
More information: https://www.beyondmeat.com/about/our-ingredients/
So while it is obviously not a whole food, I think the claim that "beet juice" is the one harmless seeming part of it is obviously false (and I love beets), and I'd like to know what the specific problems with this list of ingredients is, not from a "not the kind of thing I personally like to eat" perspective (I get that, at least if we are talking about a significant part of the diet), but in terms of the claim that "this product is obviously bad for you or something to be avoided by anyone who cares about health."14 -
(3) coconut oil (some treat it with skepticism because sat fat, but many claim it is a health food, and I'd be curious if all those bemoaning the BB product avoid coconut oil. For the record, I prefer olive and avocado on a routine basis, but also use coconut.)
Even if there is an argument to be made against saturated fat, we're talking about a burger. It's been added specifically to more closely mirror the nutrients in a beef burger so this objection only makes sense from the pretty small group of people who avoid foods with saturated fat (unless the argument is that saturated fat from animals is good for you, saturated fat from plants is bad for you, but I don't know of any research that could even begin to verify that).2 -
janejellyroll wrote: »
(3) coconut oil (some treat it with skepticism because sat fat, but many claim it is a health food, and I'd be curious if all those bemoaning the BB product avoid coconut oil. For the record, I prefer olive and avocado on a routine basis, but also use coconut.)
Even if there is an argument to be made against saturated fat, we're talking about a burger. It's been added specifically to more closely mirror the nutrients in a beef burger so this objection only makes sense from the pretty small group of people who avoid foods with saturated fat (unless the argument is that saturated fat from animals is good for you, saturated fat from plants is bad for you, but I don't know of any research that could even begin to verify that).
Yeah, totally agree, but I was trying to group in those who seemed anti burger also (the "it's going to give you a heart attack just like a burger would" crowd).
I probably should have written "I'd be curious if all those bemoaning the BB product avoid coconut oil and all other sources of sat fat."1 -
They look gross. Not much of a meat eater here, but if I wanted meat why would I eat something fake? Pretend meat,lol. And in my experience most fake stuff has alot of sodium, I wouldn't know about this product, as I walked past it in the store, like I said, it looked gross.1
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They look gross. Not much of a meat eater here, but if I wanted meat why would I eat something fake? Pretend meat,lol. And in my experience most fake stuff has alot of sodium, I wouldn't know about this product, as I walked past it in the store, like I said, it looked gross.
Because you may have a desire to eat meat but a lack of desire to cause the consequences for others that are created by fulfilling that desire.
I think there are a lot of foods that look kinda gross to some observers, especially if they're seeing them for the first time. Raw ground beef isn't much for the eyes (IMO) and there are foods like uni, blue cheese, tripe, haggis, and oysters that are all unusual looking but have fervent fans.10 -
Yes, but blue cheese, tripe, haggis and oysters are real, there are no synthetic versions of these, at least that I know about. It's pretend food and that's okay for some folks, no judgement here.0
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Yes, but blue cheese, tripe, haggis and oysters are real, there are no synthetic versions of these, at least that I know about. It's pretend food and that's okay for some folks, no judgement here.
My point is that "looking gross" isn't an indicator to how enjoyable a food may be. Also, saying something looks gross is, literally, a judgment.8 -
Sidebar: From a fast food perspective I feel like there is a double standard when it comes to plant based burgers/sausages/etc. It seems like plant based is judged more harshly than meat based products.
For one there seems to be more transparency with plant based ingredients and manufacturing. With meat based it seems to usually be a trade secret and only when the truth is revealed there is a major change (i.e., pink slime burgers at McDonald's).
Is there more transparency across the board for the farming, harvesting, and processing/packaging/transporting of produce compared to meat? I'm tempted to say no. Outside of people/organizations talking about locally grown products aimed at a local market, in the US you only really hear about the production of produce in the context of migrant workers and immigration but rarely do we hear about the labor practices in any sort of detail nor do we hear about the risks for people working on these farms. Then there's things like the ways in which crops like almonds are grown in the US (more specifically California) and the amount of water and transportation of bees that that takes which isn't really talked about all that much. It's also pretty rare to hear about the effect that large farms are having on small ones (similar to the way Amazon has ended up decimating the independent bookstore industry)
On the other hand, it isn't especially uncommon to hear about feedlots, antibiotics, free range chickens (as well as discussions about what that actually means), etc. Some of that information is coming from groups whose publications I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole, like PETA, where as other information is coming from people like Michael Pollan
I think where we do agree is that I think that things like these new engineered vegetarian (vegan?) meats do get a lot of scrutiny. I think there are a number of reasons for this - people expect it to taste like meat given the claims by the manufactures so if it doesn't there is much condemnation. People are intrigued about how these products are actually made (which I think is fair because it is a bit mindblowing).2 -
Sylphadora wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Sylphadora wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Sylphadora wrote: »Nope
Care to share what your specific concern is?
Sure. The 21 reasons in the ingredient list
You avoid beet juice?
I hate beet with a passion so yes, I do avoid it, but I'm more worried about all the vegetable seed oils, starches and sugars. Also, anything with more than 5 ingredients is a frankenfood. Have you ever used 21 ingredients in a recipe?
Yes, I'm almost positive I've used more than 21 ingredients in a recipe (mole anyone?) and I certainly use more than 5 ingredients in the vast majority of recipes that I cook. It's a bit mind boggling that someone would consider homemade chicken stock a frankenfood - though I suppose it is pretty amazing how much flavor you can get out of simmering chicken scraps (including feet), carrots, onions, garlic, celery, parsley, peppercorns, bay leafs, and salt.14 -
Sidebar: From a fast food perspective I feel like there is a double standard when it comes to plant based burgers/sausages/etc. It seems like plant based is judged more harshly than meat based products.
For one there seems to be more transparency with plant based ingredients and manufacturing. With meat based it seems to usually be a trade secret and only when the truth is revealed there is a major change (i.e., pink slime burgers at McDonald's).
Is there more transparency across the board for the farming, harvesting, and processing/packaging/transporting of produce compared to meat? I'm tempted to say no. Outside of people/organizations talking about locally grown products aimed at a local market, in the US you only really hear about the production of produce in the context of migrant workers and immigration but rarely do we hear about the labor practices in any sort of detail nor do we hear about the risks for people working on these farms. Then there's things like the ways in which crops like almonds are grown in the US (more specifically California) and the amount of water and transportation of bees that that takes which isn't really talked about all that much. It's also pretty rare to hear about the effect that large farms are having on small ones (similar to the way Amazon has ended up decimating the independent bookstore industry)
On the other hand, it isn't especially uncommon to hear about feedlots, antibiotics, free range chickens (as well as discussions about what that actually means), etc. Some of that information is coming from groups whose publications I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole, like PETA, where as other information is coming from people like Michael Pollan
I think where we do agree is that I think that things like these new engineered vegetarian (vegan?) meats do get a lot of scrutiny. I think there are a number of reasons for this - people expect it to taste like meat given the claims by the manufactures so if it doesn't there is much condemnation. People are intrigued about how these products are actually made (which I think is fair because it is a bit mindblowing).
It's almost as if all foods might turn out to be made of chemicals.
( )6 -
Sidebar: From a fast food perspective I feel like there is a double standard when it comes to plant based burgers/sausages/etc. It seems like plant based is judged more harshly than meat based products.
For one there seems to be more transparency with plant based ingredients and manufacturing. With meat based it seems to usually be a trade secret and only when the truth is revealed there is a major change (i.e., pink slime burgers at McDonald's).
Is there more transparency across the board for the farming, harvesting, and processing/packaging/transporting of produce compared to meat? I'm tempted to say no. Outside of people/organizations talking about locally grown products aimed at a local market, in the US you only really hear about the production of produce in the context of migrant workers and immigration but rarely do we hear about the labor practices in any sort of detail nor do we hear about the risks for people working on these farms. Then there's things like the ways in which crops like almonds are grown in the US (more specifically California) and the amount of water and transportation of bees that that takes which isn't really talked about all that much. It's also pretty rare to hear about the effect that large farms are having on small ones (similar to the way Amazon has ended up decimating the independent bookstore industry)
On the other hand, it isn't especially uncommon to hear about feedlots, antibiotics, free range chickens (as well as discussions about what that actually means), etc. Some of that information is coming from groups whose publications I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole, like PETA, where as other information is coming from people like Michael Pollan
I think where we do agree is that I think that things like these new engineered vegetarian (vegan?) meats do get a lot of scrutiny. I think there are a number of reasons for this - people expect it to taste like meat given the claims by the manufactures so if it doesn't there is much condemnation. People are intrigued about how these products are actually made (which I think is fair because it is a bit mindblowing).
It's almost as if all foods might turn out to be made of chemicals.
( )
Chemicals...everywhere!1 -
Not sure if I have used more than21 ingredients in a recipe - (am not a very adventurous cook) but have certainly used more than 5.
Most recipes have more than 5 ingredients - even simple ones like a hot dog (as I make them) - bun, sausage, cheese, bacon, onion, sauce.
So that is a frankenfood but if I omit the cheese and sauce and get it back to 4 ingredients then it is ok????
Strangest logic ever.
almost as strange as the if you cant pronounce it dont eat it rule - so if I have a lisp and I cant pronounce spinach I shouldnt eat it??? Really??
or the only if your grandmother was familiar with it rule.
My grandmother lived most of her life in rural Australia - she was actually a very good cook and made cakes, sauces, stews etc from scratch - but she made all 'western culture staples' - and I like asian style stir fries too - seems silly to ban them from my diet on account of my grandmother6 -
Sidebar: From a fast food perspective I feel like there is a double standard when it comes to plant based burgers/sausages/etc. It seems like plant based is judged more harshly than meat based products.
For one there seems to be more transparency with plant based ingredients and manufacturing. With meat based it seems to usually be a trade secret and only when the truth is revealed there is a major change (i.e., pink slime burgers at McDonald's).
Is there more transparency across the board for the farming, harvesting, and processing/packaging/transporting of produce compared to meat? I'm tempted to say no. Outside of people/organizations talking about locally grown products aimed at a local market, in the US you only really hear about the production of produce in the context of migrant workers and immigration but rarely do we hear about the labor practices in any sort of detail nor do we hear about the risks for people working on these farms. Then there's things like the ways in which crops like almonds are grown in the US (more specifically California) and the amount of water and transportation of bees that that takes which isn't really talked about all that much. It's also pretty rare to hear about the effect that large farms are having on small ones (similar to the way Amazon has ended up decimating the independent bookstore industry)
On the other hand, it isn't especially uncommon to hear about feedlots, antibiotics, free range chickens (as well as discussions about what that actually means), etc. Some of that information is coming from groups whose publications I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole, like PETA, where as other information is coming from people like Michael Pollan
I think where we do agree is that I think that things like these new engineered vegetarian (vegan?) meats do get a lot of scrutiny. I think there are a number of reasons for this - people expect it to taste like meat given the claims by the manufactures so if it doesn't there is much condemnation. People are intrigued about how these products are actually made (which I think is fair because it is a bit mindblowing).
It's almost as if all foods might turn out to be made of chemicals.
( )
Chemicals...everywhere!
C'mon, folks, spell it right - "ChemiKILLZ"7 -
I buy Beyond Burger a lot and really enjoy it. If I go to a restaurant, I'd rather a beef burger, but when I cook at home, I find it a lot easier to work with. I was never very good at cooking beef burgers so my Beyond Burgers end up coming out better.
I also find the "it's heavily processed" attack to be amusing because:
1. Of course it's processed. It's plant based products made to mimic the taste, appearance, and nutritional profile of ground beef. Of course it's gonna be processed. It doesn't grow on the beef fruit tree plant.
2. If people want to scare about "processed" or "funny sounding ingredients", they should look at what gets fed to commercially produced beef. Cows don't magically appear in the slaughterhouse. They are raised and fed antibiotics and all sorts of other things ingredients (I've heard people try to scare about soy being in meat replacements not realizing that it is one of the primary ingredients fed to cows). I am not much one for ingredient scaring, but if you are, it's easy to do with beef too.
I know I'm late to the party, but scare tactics about what cows eat reminded me of the Skittles story a few years back, and I googled it, and Here Ya Go: https://thecounter.org/alternative-feed-not-alternative-facts/
I just meant to quip that the farmers only feed Soy when Skittles aren't available - but now I'm fairly horrified by some of the things that milk and meat cows are fed, regularly. It's definitely not the soy that bothers ME...2 -
Sylphadora wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Sylphadora wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Sylphadora wrote: »Nope
Care to share what your specific concern is?
Sure. The 21 reasons in the ingredient list
You avoid beet juice?
I hate beet with a passion so yes, I do avoid it, but I'm more worried about all the vegetable seed oils, starches and sugars. Also, anything with more than 5 ingredients is a frankenfood. Have you ever used 21 ingredients in a recipe?
Not often, but I generally do use more than 5. Rather amused that my millet-and-fruit stuffed acorn squash qualifies as a frankenfood. Ditto the stirfry I'm eating right now (12 ingredients, not counting seasonings and counting the stir-fry sauce as one ingredient instead of breaking it down to its components). Or the vanilla sugar cookies I made for dessert...5
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