Permission to Come Aforum?

Sunday started my 4 month maintenance/recomp period. This is part of my overall plan to be over-prepared for full-time maintenance... assuming that is possible.

For several months now I have been working on habits, NEAT improvement, and trying to consider my strategy. It helped me to stop thinking of this as preparing for maintenance and start thinking of it as self-improvement and not just with regards to weight management and fitness. I have been building other good habits because I believe good habits breed the same. If I am going to fit more exercise into my day I need a stronger habit base to improve time management. If I am going to maintain my accountability and make mindful decisions I need to understand how to establish better habits and environment to reduce temptation.

I have increased both my NEAT and my exercise calories. I have overshot my goal there but I suspect that will scale back down some over time.

As it stands my plan is to do 4 months of maint/recomp, return to a deficit for a couple of months, and then do another 4 months. After that I am sure I will be ready to finish my weight loss phase.

I know it won't feel exactly the same because I will always know this is ending and real maintenance is forever but I want to simulate it as much as possible. I want to feel like I will have a good handle on this because going back to my morbid obese life just can't be an option.

Right now I think I will continue with my practice of banking some calories for the weekend. That seems ridiculous at this calorie level but I really have no need for so many during the work week. I don't want to start drinking weekly or even monthly but I never intended to push alcohol so far out of my system so banking gives me an opportunity there too.

I appreciate any wisdom offered.

Replies

MelanieCN77

NovusDies wrote: »

Add to that this is also for recomp so that will be a headache on the scale as well.

My scale result is pretty high today. I am also pretty sore so no surprises there. I was starting to slide back down a bit for a couple of days but then jumped 2.4 pounds again between yesterday and today. As I said one of my goals was to try to establish how my weight would normally behave in maintenance. I have a good feel for how it behaves while losing... well as much as anyone can.

Yesss I just had one of these 'moments' myself. I've done unstructured resistance workouts for pretty much the last several years and on a whim decided to really try a program and lift heavy. It was only an 8 week program but the scale really played with my mind during it. It's tiring to keep reminding oneself what it all means but it must sink in eventually. In some ways I'm so much freer than I have been but in other ways I still feel encumbered when it comes to watching my food. I suspect that once you've had an "it's complicated" relationship with food, it will always be so to some extent.

cmriverside

AnnPT77 wrote: »

NovusDies wrote: »

(snip)

I appreciate any wisdom offered.

Just in to wish you well, express my confidence that you're more than up to accomplishing this successfully (and will learn from it) . . . and to LOL a little at the implication that us random maintainers might have some additional wisdom that you don't.

cmriverside wrote: »

(snip)

HUGE life change.

HUGE issues to overcome, for anyone losing significant weight. I posted in another thread this morning about just some of the factors I had to think about, change, question, etc. Everything from the macros puzzle, nutrition, stress, alcohol, sleep, snacking, meal timing, food choices, exercise, logging, and more. It's a complicated physiological and psychological change. I don't think that ever ends, honestly.

(snip)

And just to make things more entertaining, some of the relevant external and internal factors change over time, too, so approach that used to work well now needs some tweaking. Fun stuff.

Yup.

Some things still have my claw marks on them. Some things have gotten way easier though - so there's that.

I did bounce around 10 pounds up and down for the first couple years of maintenance. Then somehow it just became a steady weight and now I almost can't change it. I just stay within a three pound range.

NovusDies

cmriverside wrote: »

AnnPT77 wrote: »

NovusDies wrote: »

(snip)

I appreciate any wisdom offered.

Just in to wish you well, express my confidence that you're more than up to accomplishing this successfully (and will learn from it) . . . and to LOL a little at the implication that us random maintainers might have some additional wisdom that you don't.

cmriverside wrote: »

(snip)

HUGE life change.

HUGE issues to overcome, for anyone losing significant weight. I posted in another thread this morning about just some of the factors I had to think about, change, question, etc. Everything from the macros puzzle, nutrition, stress, alcohol, sleep, snacking, meal timing, food choices, exercise, logging, and more. It's a complicated physiological and psychological change. I don't think that ever ends, honestly.

(snip)

And just to make things more entertaining, some of the relevant external and internal factors change over time, too, so approach that used to work well now needs some tweaking. Fun stuff.

Yup.

Some things still have my claw marks on them. Some things have gotten way easier though - so there's that.

I did bounce around 10 pounds up and down for the first couple years of maintenance. Then somehow it just became a steady weight and now I almost can't change it. I just stay within a three pound range.

I hope I will eventually stabilize. My capacity for bloat is unnerving at times. I go away for vacation and come back 20 pounds heavier almost every time.

katsheare

NovusDies wrote: »

PAV8888 wrote: »

I echo the slightly crazy, like a fox, bro up-thread. As long as you keep keeping that head in the game the way you have been you will be in as good a shape as anyone can be!

Depending on what statistic you believe only like 10 percent of anyone who gets to a goal successfully maintains it. My logic in this regard is pretty simple. If I want to be among the 10 percent I can't behave like the 90 percent. I don't see many people being this crazy so I will take you at your word that I might actually be in good shape.

Just want to celebrate your insightfulness here. So very very true, and one of the things leering at me (~4 kg from maintenance...).

NovusDies

katsheare wrote: »

NovusDies wrote: »

PAV8888 wrote: »

I echo the slightly crazy, like a fox, bro up-thread. As long as you keep keeping that head in the game the way you have been you will be in as good a shape as anyone can be!

Depending on what statistic you believe only like 10 percent of anyone who gets to a goal successfully maintains it. My logic in this regard is pretty simple. If I want to be among the 10 percent I can't behave like the 90 percent. I don't see many people being this crazy so I will take you at your word that I might actually be in good shape.

Just want to celebrate your insightfulness here. So very very true, and one of the things leering at me (~4 kg from maintenance...).

I wouldn't know for sure but I would think that you using the word "leering" is a good sign that you respect the process enough to do well at it. I don't think of it as some huge undertaking but I can't afford to kick back and think it will all take care of itself either. I would rather be cautious to a ridiculous degree. Plus this trial is piggy-backing on recomp which is getting most of my attention.

NovusDies

Sunday to Sunday I still managed to create nearly 1500 calories of deficit. My weight is still up 10 pounds over my low which is not surprising and not something I expect to change for a few weeks. I am on my second trip through my recomp routine and now I am realizing I need to adjust a few things. No surprise there either.

I would give my first 7 days a C- grade. I knew I had some banked calories to eat this weekend and I didn't feel comfortable eating them and it is probably because of my weight upticking. So even though I expected the hike a few of those irrational demons were whispering in my ear and won. I know you might be thinking that I could eat them today but I usually prefer to start a clean slate on Monday. I also think these smaller over/under numbers will probably balance themselves without being forced.

cmriverside

So...you're not trying to lose or maintain...you're trying a bulk/cut cycle?

I mean, your posts are all over the place in this thread from losing to maintaining to bulk. I think you could pick a direction and stick with that direction for 4-6 weeks, just like when you were losing. Get off the fence.

You know your calorie needs, right? You have the spreadsheet. Trust the process a little.

How about just getting comfortable at a goal range of five pounds and then lifting some heavy stuff and putting it back down.

NovusDies

cmriverside wrote: »

So...you're not trying to lose or maintain...you're trying a bulk/cut cycle?

I mean, your posts are all over the place in this thread from losing to maintaining to bulk. I think you could pick a direction and stick with that direction for 4-6 weeks, just like when you were losing. Get off the fence.

You know your calorie needs, right? You have the spreadsheet. Trust the process a little.

How about just getting comfortable at a goal range of five pounds and then lifting some heavy stuff and putting it back down.

I do not feel like I am on the fence. Just trying to adjust. I am trying to recomp and practice maintenance while I do it. I don't recall saying anything remotely about trying to bulk, in fact, I thought I was quite clear that I probably would likely not be comfortable doing anything like that for several years after I reach some sort of goal.

I probably did lose a little this last week which is not my goal but, again, trying to adjust. That is why I gave my first week an unsatisfactory grade.

cmriverside

:flowerforyou:

cupcakesandproteinshakes

NovusDies wrote: »

cmriverside wrote: »

So...you're not trying to lose or maintain...you're trying a bulk/cut cycle?

I mean, your posts are all over the place in this thread from losing to maintaining to bulk. I think you could pick a direction and stick with that direction for 4-6 weeks, just like when you were losing. Get off the fence.

You know your calorie needs, right? You have the spreadsheet. Trust the process a little.

How about just getting comfortable at a goal range of five pounds and then lifting some heavy stuff and putting it back down.

I do not feel like I am on the fence. Just trying to adjust. I am trying to recomp and practice maintenance while I do it. I don't recall saying anything remotely about trying to bulk, in fact, I thought I was quite clear that I probably would likely not be comfortable doing anything like that for several years after I reach some sort of goal.

I probably did lose a little this last week which is not my goal but, again, trying to adjust. That is why I gave my first week an unsatisfactory grade.

I don’t think this sounds ‘unsatisfactory’. You are an analytical person and are well on top of your data. Go easy on yourself. It’s not unsatisfactory, you are still learning how to do maintenance.

NovusDies

cupcakesandproteinshakes wrote: »

NovusDies wrote: »

cmriverside wrote: »

So...you're not trying to lose or maintain...you're trying a bulk/cut cycle?

I mean, your posts are all over the place in this thread from losing to maintaining to bulk. I think you could pick a direction and stick with that direction for 4-6 weeks, just like when you were losing. Get off the fence.

You know your calorie needs, right? You have the spreadsheet. Trust the process a little.

How about just getting comfortable at a goal range of five pounds and then lifting some heavy stuff and putting it back down.

I do not feel like I am on the fence. Just trying to adjust. I am trying to recomp and practice maintenance while I do it. I don't recall saying anything remotely about trying to bulk, in fact, I thought I was quite clear that I probably would likely not be comfortable doing anything like that for several years after I reach some sort of goal.

I probably did lose a little this last week which is not my goal but, again, trying to adjust. That is why I gave my first week an unsatisfactory grade.

I don’t think this sounds ‘unsatisfactory’. You are an analytical person and are well on top of your data. Go easy on yourself. It’s not unsatisfactory, you are still learning how to do maintenance.

I am not really being hard on myself. I have my permission to flail about a bit while I adjust. The week could have gone better which is true.

You might also be right. Maybe leaving 1k+ deficit some weeks will be normal and another week will balance it out. I don't normally think in terms of balancing calories over a month or more. Maybe that is a normal thing and I am being unfair. I will figure it out in time.

janejellyroll

NovusDies wrote: »

cupcakesandproteinshakes wrote: »

NovusDies wrote: »

cmriverside wrote: »

So...you're not trying to lose or maintain...you're trying a bulk/cut cycle?

I mean, your posts are all over the place in this thread from losing to maintaining to bulk. I think you could pick a direction and stick with that direction for 4-6 weeks, just like when you were losing. Get off the fence.

You know your calorie needs, right? You have the spreadsheet. Trust the process a little.

How about just getting comfortable at a goal range of five pounds and then lifting some heavy stuff and putting it back down.

I do not feel like I am on the fence. Just trying to adjust. I am trying to recomp and practice maintenance while I do it. I don't recall saying anything remotely about trying to bulk, in fact, I thought I was quite clear that I probably would likely not be comfortable doing anything like that for several years after I reach some sort of goal.

I probably did lose a little this last week which is not my goal but, again, trying to adjust. That is why I gave my first week an unsatisfactory grade.

I don’t think this sounds ‘unsatisfactory’. You are an analytical person and are well on top of your data. Go easy on yourself. It’s not unsatisfactory, you are still learning how to do maintenance.

I am not really being hard on myself. I have my permission to flail about a bit while I adjust. The week could have gone better which is true.

You might also be right. Maybe leaving 1k+ deficit some weeks will be normal and another week will balance it out. I don't normally think in terms of balancing calories over a month or more. Maybe that is a normal thing and I am being unfair. I will figure it out in time.

Just in terms of my maintaining (since 2015), it's absolutely normal for me to have weeks where I am in an overall deficit that are balanced out by other weeks where I am absolutely not (to be clear, we're talking within a certain level, not a few thousand over).

It took me a while to be comfortable with this as I was really terrified of the "slippery slope" of letting myself "go over" some weeks. As time went by and weeks turned into months and then into years, I've learned to trust myself more. I don't think there is any value in pushing yourself to be comfortable with it right away. The whole point of this process (in my point of view) is to gradually acclimate into trusting yourself to be consistent with food. Just as I think it would be unwise to immediately trust someone as a partner on a first date, I think it would have been unwise for me to trust myself as someone who is consistent with food during my first weeks or even months of maintaining. I had to prove to myself that this could happen and as I've proven more to myself, I feel open to trusting myself more. But, just like most relationships, I've had times when I've disappointed myself and then re-set boundaries.

I've learned that I am the type of person who can have somewhat varying weeks as long as I'm still using *my* required tools (food logging and body weight measurements) to keep myself on track. Other people may learn different things, but I think that's the whole value of this period -- you're learning what your non-essentials and non-negotiables are.

NovusDies

janejellyroll wrote: »

NovusDies wrote: »

cupcakesandproteinshakes wrote: »

NovusDies wrote: »

cmriverside wrote: »

So...you're not trying to lose or maintain...you're trying a bulk/cut cycle?

I mean, your posts are all over the place in this thread from losing to maintaining to bulk. I think you could pick a direction and stick with that direction for 4-6 weeks, just like when you were losing. Get off the fence.

You know your calorie needs, right? You have the spreadsheet. Trust the process a little.

How about just getting comfortable at a goal range of five pounds and then lifting some heavy stuff and putting it back down.

I do not feel like I am on the fence. Just trying to adjust. I am trying to recomp and practice maintenance while I do it. I don't recall saying anything remotely about trying to bulk, in fact, I thought I was quite clear that I probably would likely not be comfortable doing anything like that for several years after I reach some sort of goal.

I probably did lose a little this last week which is not my goal but, again, trying to adjust. That is why I gave my first week an unsatisfactory grade.

I don’t think this sounds ‘unsatisfactory’. You are an analytical person and are well on top of your data. Go easy on yourself. It’s not unsatisfactory, you are still learning how to do maintenance.

I am not really being hard on myself. I have my permission to flail about a bit while I adjust. The week could have gone better which is true.

You might also be right. Maybe leaving 1k+ deficit some weeks will be normal and another week will balance it out. I don't normally think in terms of balancing calories over a month or more. Maybe that is a normal thing and I am being unfair. I will figure it out in time.

Just in terms of my maintaining (since 2015), it's absolutely normal for me to have weeks where I am in an overall deficit that are balanced out by other weeks where I am absolutely not (to be clear, we're talking within a certain level, not a few thousand over).

It took me a while to be comfortable with this as I was really terrified of the "slippery slope" of letting myself "go over" some weeks. As time went by and weeks turned into months and then into years, I've learned to trust myself more. I don't think there is any value in pushing yourself to be comfortable with it right away. The whole point of this process (in my point of view) is to gradually acclimate into trusting yourself to be consistent with food. Just as I think it would be unwise to immediately trust someone as a partner on a first date, I think it would have been unwise for me to trust myself as someone who is consistent with food during my first weeks or even months of maintaining. I had to prove to myself that this could happen and as I've proven more to myself, I feel open to trusting myself more. But, just like most relationships, I've had times when I've disappointed myself and then re-set boundaries.

I've learned that I am the type of person who can have somewhat varying weeks as long as I'm still using *my* required tools (food logging and body weight measurements) to keep myself on track. Other people may learn different things, but I think that's the whole value of this period -- you're learning what your non-essentials and non-negotiables are.

And people were mocking me because I said I would garner wisdom from the maintenance crowd...

Today has been kind of terrible on the food front. My 2 doctor's appointments ran very long and past my lunch. When I got home I scarfed down a few bars, leftover tofu, 2 boiled eggs, and some chocolate then raced back out the door with the sick dog to the vet. Just got back home and I am debating on just ordering a pizza and drinking a protein shake or do the more right thing and prepare some food to hit closer to my normal quotas.

Screw it. I am exhausted and starting to feel the impact of 80 minutes of early morning exercise and not enough food. Pizza time.

PAV8888

@NovusDies , you know that I advocate experimenting. And sometimes re-framing. I know you want to practice maintenance. But honestly, losing a bit of weight from your current position while practicing maintenance? I would call that more of a win than a loss. i.e. so what if your "maintenance practice" contains periods of loss? In the end, most of us know that we can eat more / more calorically dense food and stop any loss in its tracks!

And, of course, at maintenance there will always be weeks where we trend up a bit, right?

For me, my biggest "revelation" re: maintenance, was to try to convince myself to avoid "abrupt" adjustments.

I've seen a lot of people regain a few lbs and then go full on "diet mode" to remove them. Or, even worse, promise themselves they would; but, postponing the start date, etc--which feeds into my make it easy viewpoint!

So far what has worked for me has been "smaller" adjustments, usually done by trying to increase my consistency re: hitting my caloric goals. As you know I am set on a deficit and keep eating in the red... so I try to reduce the red when I want to go down!

NovusDies

PAV8888 wrote: »

@NovusDies , you know that I advocate experimenting. And sometimes re-framing. I know you want to practice maintenance. But honestly, losing a bit of weight from your current position while practicing maintenance? I would call that more of a win than a loss. i.e. so what if your "maintenance practice" contains periods of loss? In the end, most of us know that we can eat more / more calorically dense food and stop any loss in its tracks! And, of course, at maintenance there will always be weeks where we trend up a bit, right?

For me, my biggest "revelation" re: maintenance, was to try to convince myself to avoid "abrupt" adjustments.

I've seen a lot of people regain a few lbs and then go full on "diet mode" to remove them. Or, even worse, promise themselves they would; but, postponing the start date, etc--which feeds into my make it easy viewpoint!

So far what has worked for me has been "smaller" adjustments, usually done by trying to increase my consistency re: hitting my caloric goals. As you know I am set on a deficit and keep eating in the red... so I try to reduce the red when I want to go down!

Except that I want to be as close to maintenance as possible when my recomp gets more serious. Right now I am still in the beginning stages so none of my strength exercises are efficient and it is no big deal.

I very much let my pre-surgery situation become an excuse not to do as much as I probably could have if I had pushed harder. I understand this will not be as good as bulking but I really need this to go decently.

The maintenance eating is not really that abrupt since it has only been half a minute since I was eating what I believed to be maintenance during my recovery. The abrupt change is all the new exercise since I have strength and a staggering number of physio therapy exercises... seriously there are 11 of them and 2 of them require multiple positions and movements.

The new food element is all the calories. You warned me that I was very active and I was sure you had to be mistaken... you weren't. My spreadsheet and a few really low energy days proved you right.

AnnPT77

NovusDies wrote: »

And people were mocking me because I said I would garner wisdom from the maintenance crowd...

If you're referring to me, that was far from mocking. If I were mocking, everyone would know it. That was bemusement, and a tip of the hat to the idea that you're a smart guy.

Now I"m going to go all weird and abstract, so I dunno if you wanna even keep reading.

You have current goals, to do things that reach certain observable, objective (but quite gradual) outcomes in the real world. ("Recomposition", right? So, the objective parts are stable weight and increased muscle mass, presumably.)

In how you're writing about that, I feel like there's a little bit of getting hung up on words, in a way that I think happens here kinda often when people "start maintenance" and talk about it as if it were some special set-apart objective thing separate from any other part of health/weight management . . . maybe even feeling a bit of anxiety about doing this "new thing".

Do people eat above maintenance calories in maintenance? Yes, for a day or a few, and it's still "maintenance". Do people eat below maintenance calories in maintenance? Ditto. Just like in your "weight loss phase(s)", sometimes you ate above goal, sometimes below. The difference in "maintenance" is that you want your multi-week trend running horizontal-ish, that's all. The scale goes up a little, it goes down a little, just against a horizontal trend instead of a dropping trend. It's not that different. Variances, within reason, are no reason to give yourself substandard grades, feel bad or anxious, etc. It's still just food.

By now, you know enough about your water-weight and disgestive-contents fluctuations to recognize those when you see them. They'll be a little different against a background of stable weight, but not much. You have a decent handle on your TDEE/NEAT. You've trusted the process during loss. Keep trusting it now.

What's the worst that can happen? A tiny gain? You know how to handle that. A tiny slip in strength-training progress? You know how to eat a little more, and ask questions on the exercise front about whether it's time to deload, switch programs, whatever, whatever. At worst, there'll be some minor detours of a block or few, in the midst of your trip to the other side of the country. Doesn't learning usually involve that?

And eat the pizza. Enjoy the pizza. Because people "in maintenance" eat pizza sometimes.

:flowerforyou:

NovusDies

AnnPT77 wrote: »

NovusDies wrote: »

And people were mocking me because I said I would garner wisdom from the maintenance crowd...

If you're referring to me, that was far from mocking. If I were mocking, everyone would know it. That was bemusement, and a tip of the hat to the idea that you're a smart guy.

Now I"m going to go all weird and abstract, so I dunno if you wanna even keep reading.

You have current goals, to do things that reach certain observable, objective (but quite gradual) outcomes in the real world. ("Recomposition", right? So, the objective parts are stable weight and increased muscle mass, presumably.)

In how you're writing about that, I feel like there's a little bit of getting hung up on words, in a way that I think happens here kinda often when people "start maintenance" and talk about it as if it were some special set-apart objective thing separate from any other part of health/weight management . . . maybe even feeling a bit of anxiety about doing this "new thing".

Do people eat above maintenance calories in maintenance? Yes, for a day or a few, and it's still "maintenance". Do people eat below maintenance calories in maintenance? Ditto. Just like in your "weight loss phase(s)", sometimes you ate above goal, sometimes below. The difference in "maintenance" is that you want your multi-week trend running horizontal-ish, that's all. The scale goes up a little, it goes down a little, just against a horizontal trend instead of a dropping trend. It's not that different. Variances, within reason, are no reason to give yourself substandard grades, feel bad or anxious, etc. It's still just food.

By now, you know enough about your water-weight and disgestive-contents fluctuations to recognize those when you see them. They'll be a little different against a background of stable weight, but not much. You have a decent handle on your TDEE/NEAT. You've trusted the process during loss. Keep trusting it now.

What's the worst that can happen? A tiny gain? You know how to handle that. A tiny slip in strength-training progress? You know how to eat a little more, and ask questions on the exercise front about whether it's time to deload, switch programs, whatever, whatever. At worst, there'll be some minor detours of a block or few, in the midst of your trip to the other side of the country. Doesn't learning usually involve that?

And eat the pizza. Enjoy the pizza. Because people "in maintenance" eat pizza sometimes. :flowerforyou:

And if I had thought you actually mocked me everyone would know that too...

The progression of events was that I knew I was in a deficit and I intended to lessen it over the weekend and didn't because I felt uncomfortable. That is why I was unhappy with the week. I understand there is a larger picture or I will once I get my head back above the waves.

NovusDies

I think the second week was overall a good A-. I did create a 642 calorie deficit but it happened more organically. No mental baggage involved.

Recomp is still in the early stages but I felt a progression in experience. I have decided to go ahead and start tracking it so I made up cards to use to make manual notes. I need to take pictures. I am not sure if measurements will be of a benefit since I still have fat to lose and loose skin that will need to be removed.

I do not seem to mind yet that I am not losing. The scale has been high and hovering 9-10 pounds above my lowest weight potential. I have felt for some time now that I am beyond needing the scale for anything other than data however that is when it was still going down and "paying off". This is a more interesting test of that theory. Too soon to call.

NovusDies

Last week was more like an A. I finished the week with only a 324 calorie deficit which is easily within the margin of error for 7 days.

My original plan was to bank calories for the weekend like I have done all along. Then I wondered if I really needed to do that since I am getting 3000-3400 calories per day and I could still designate one weekend day as more of a treat food day. However, in practice I am finding that there is more to it than just having treat food and that I want one day to be above the rest. This week I am back to banking so that Saturday or Sunday I can try to recreate the experience I had when I was losing. I imagine when I go into maintenance permanently this may fade away but right now it is still fresh.