Bony to Beastly... A Scam?
darreneatschicken
Posts: 669 Member
I just heard good things about this program called Bony to Beastly.
If you look at the "transformations" page of the website, it shows a bunch of skinny guys who gained a massive amount of weight in a short amount of time, while seemingly keeping their body fat low.
The thing is that the program costs $200!
What are your guys' thoughts on this? Scam or not?
If you look at the "transformations" page of the website, it shows a bunch of skinny guys who gained a massive amount of weight in a short amount of time, while seemingly keeping their body fat low.
The thing is that the program costs $200!
What are your guys' thoughts on this? Scam or not?
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Scam.2
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Do it on your own! Find a good MFP friend on here to help and go.0
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I would say any plan promising your dream or goal body in a short period of time is not very reliable. It can take years for many people.11
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Scam.
Biggest red flag to me is the site uses somatypes to classify people and somatypes have been debunked for years. Also, skinny people do not have faster metabolisms than non-skinny people, they just tend to either eat less or move more.8 -
Didn't they sell those programs on the back pages of comic books years decades ago?
There is plenty of reliable information out there for free, just check out the programs and sites recommended on here. At most it should cost you $20 or so for a book. Use the remaining $180 for sessions with a personal trainer.8 -
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pitbullpuppy wrote: »I don't know that I'd call any workout program a 'scam.' I did a well-known program a long time ago and did not get the advertised results whatsoever. But I did learn a few effective exercises and was disciplined into exercising six days a week which propelled me into bodybuilding. I wasn't suddenly ripped, but I was motivated. If that plan gets you involved and physically active, whether it works as advertised or not is besides the point because, IMO, whatever it takes to take care of yourself is priceless.
The fact that they lie about results, use long-debunked concepts, and charge $200 notwithstanding?
Workout programs can be scams, IMO, when they promise the unachievable, deliver no results one can't get for free (or close), and cost a bundle.
I'm glad you found something that became a useful on-ramp for you, and that to you that was worth the cost . . . this one's still a scam, though. Won't say the one you fell for followed was a scam, because I don't know what it was.8 -
Check out StrongLifts 5x5. Simple exercises with a free app. Website has all you need. Videos on app for step by step instructions for proper form. No unrealistic promises, but it works. Testimonials all over the internet.1
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My view — you do not need supplements to build muscle. To build muscle you need to do to weight training and ensure you eat enough to fuel your body’s your body will gain muscle. Mike Matthews from Legion Athletics has some good articles on the muscle building process. He also has a book for men called Bigger Leaner Stronger (the female version is Thinner Leaner Stronger). I bought for $1 when he had a sale. I think the normal price is less than $10. Legion also sells supplements, but you don’t need supplements. You would be better off spending your $200 on a set of weights or resistance bands, read some free articles and add muscle to your body. Remember this is a slow process. Take your time.
Good luck2 -
springlering62 wrote: »
I wanted those Sea Monkeys soooooo badly!5 -
7 years OP. 7 years of majoring in the minors. Imagine just eating at a slight surplus and killing it in the gym.3
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jseams1234 wrote: »7 years OP. 7 years of majoring in the minors. Imagine just eating at a slight surplus and killing it in the gym.
I've been running StrongLifts 5x5 with accessory work since November 2019. When the quarantine hit, I bought a pair of adjustable dumbbells and continued the same workout, just with more reps. Went from 140 lbs to 147 lbs since I started lifting... However, most of it seems to be body fat, as I don't look any more muscular.3 -
Scam.
Biggest red flag to me is the site uses somatypes to classify people and somatypes have been debunked for years. Also, skinny people do not have faster metabolisms than non-skinny people, they just tend to either eat less or move more.
Just wanted to be THAT person and point out that that's not necessarily true. Some people have thyroid issues or metabolic issues.
My mother is a prime example. 5'1" and 100 lbs soaking wet. Even pregnant, she couldn't gain weight.
She wants curves so bad. She hates her body. She's even been prescribed, by a doctor, to move the absolute bare minimum and eat 3000 calories per day. She did this. And lost a pound. She's got a metabolism disorder and cannot gain weight. Its not always down to who's eating more or less.2 -
TO the OP: remember that you CAN'T HAVE **FAST** GAIN that is not mostly fat gain. These guys are selling shakes and their program. Some very well researched programs do exist. A number of low cost or free ones are in the 'sticky post" section.3
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I haven't read the program, but I will state that I personally wouldn't recommend reading the articles. I glanced over Why Ectomorphs Should Lift a Little Differently and it was mainly garbage filler. Plenty of nocebo content and basically marketing their content that isn't backed by scientific evidence.
I will state that if you are novel to lifting, there are plenty of free programs that the will get you results under the right conditions.
More times than not when you see before and after photos, you are not getting the full story.
If you want to invest in your training, I would look elsewhere.5 -
brittanystebbins95 wrote: »Scam.
Biggest red flag to me is the site uses somatypes to classify people and somatypes have been debunked for years. Also, skinny people do not have faster metabolisms than non-skinny people, they just tend to either eat less or move more.
Just wanted to be THAT person and point out that that's not necessarily true. Some people have thyroid issues or metabolic issues.
My mother is a prime example. 5'1" and 100 lbs soaking wet. Even pregnant, she couldn't gain weight.
She wants curves so bad. She hates her body. She's even been prescribed, by a doctor, to move the absolute bare minimum and eat 3000 calories per day. She did this. And lost a pound. She's got a metabolism disorder and cannot gain weight. Its not always down to who's eating more or less.
That literally just means her calorie out is significantly higher than expected - you can’t outrun physics - I had a friend in college like that - he literally ate 5000cal a day to gain weight6 -
so many great free sources and videos online, it's silly to pay for these TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE marketing scams!4
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Hey AsianAmbition, I'm one of the founders of Bony to Beastly. I'd be happy to answer any questions you have.
What we do isn't a scam. Weight training, eating a good bulking diet, and improving your lifestyle (such as improving your sleep) really does help people build muscle. If those people are skinny beginners and they're able ot consistently follow a good program, they're often able to gain muscle fairly quickly without much fat gain.
But as other people have pointed out, the magic isn't in our specific program or method. There's no big reveal where we tell you that intermittent fasting, resistance bands, some special exercise, a weird supplement, or avoiding carbs on Tuesdays is the secret to building muscle. You can get these results with other workout and diet programs.
We aren't trying to recreate the wheel here. We just follow the research and teach people how to bulk properly. Our approach is actually fairly conventional, mixing hypertrophy training, a conventional bulking diet, and good general lifestyle practices, such as sleep, tracking progress, adjusting based on the results you're getting, and coaching support from us along the way.I would say any plan promising your dream or goal body in a short period of time is not very reliable. It can take years for many people.
I agree. But just to give another perspective, when I was clinically underweight, my goal wasn't to build my dream body, my goal was just to not be excessively skinny anymore. Within my first three months of training, I was able to gain 20 pounds, and I was never skinny again.
Now, it took me two years to gain 55 pounds, bringing me up to my goal bodyweight. It took another couple of years before I accomplished my lifetime goal of building 15" arms. And even now, ten years later, I still want to improve my physique. I also still want to deadlift 495 pounds and bench 315. I haven't been able to do that yet.
So can you build a dream body in just a few months? Probably not. But can you make a remarkable improvement to your physique, health, and strength? Yeah, definitely.Scam. Biggest red flag to me is the site uses somatypes to classify people and somatypes have been debunked for years. Also, skinny people do not have faster metabolisms than non-skinny people, they just tend to either eat less or move more.
Somatotypes are debunked, yeah. There's no proven link between someone's body type and their personality. We've written about that here: https://bonytobeastly.com/ectomorph-mesomorph-endomorph-body-types/
In the bodybuilding world, people often label themselves based on their situations and goals, though. Naturally skinny guys often refer to themselves as "ectomorphs" because they have narrower shoulders, thinner bones, less muscle mass, and they want to bulk up. That's why we use the term sometimes. We're just trying to use the language that our readers use. But whenever we mention the word ectomorph, we try to make it clear that it's not a scientific term, it's just a slang term for someone who's naturally thin.
Regarding having a fast metabolism, we normally call that being a "hardgainer," i.e., someone who has a hard time eating enough calories to gain weight. I think that's a bit different from being an ectomorph, but the terms definitely have some overlap. Both typically refer to someone who's naturally skinny. We've written about hardgainers here: https://bonytobeastly.com/hardgainer-weight-gain/
I don't really disagree with you about any of this, I'd just add that moving more does mean having a higher metabolism. The more we move, the more energy we burn each day, and so the higher our metabolisms are. There's no magic going on, though, you're right.
But even so, some people really do have a harder time gaining weight than others, even when trying their best to eat in a calorie surplus. That was always my own struggle. Most of our clients have that same struggle.
You might be thinking of Charles Atlas. He had a program for skinny guys that he sold in the back of comic books. We've written about that here: https://bonytobeastly.com/hypertrophy-training/Didn't they sell those programs on the back pages of comic books years decades ago?
There is plenty of reliable information out there for free, just check out the programs and sites recommended on here. At most it should cost you $20 or so for a book. Use the remaining $180 for sessions with a personal trainer.
Nobody should feel like they need to buy our program to get results. They don't. That's never been our claim. We're just trying to make the process easier. We sell more than just a book, though. It's a package of a few different books, a training program, hundreds of videos teaching all of the lifts, and it includes coaching in our community.
Our programming and coaching is run by Marco Walker-Ng, a certified personal trainer and diet coach with a degree in health sciences. Before founding Bony to Beastly with me, he worked helping college, professional, and Olympic athletes bulk up (such as our Canadian Olympic rugby team).
But some people prefer in-person personal training, and I get that, too. Marco would be the first person to advocate for that. It's a great way to learn how to lift.pitbullpuppy wrote: »I don't know that I'd call any workout program a 'scam.' I did a well-known program a long time ago and did not get the advertised results whatsoever. But I did learn a few effective exercises and was disciplined into exercising six days a week which propelled me into bodybuilding. I wasn't suddenly ripped, but I was motivated. If that plan gets you involved and physically active, whether it works as advertised or not is besides the point because, IMO, whatever it takes to take care of yourself is priceless.
That's been my own experience as well. I've gotten great value out of most of the fitness programs I've bought, even if I didn't follow them perfectly, and even if there were some mistakes in them. There's some shadiness in the industry, yeah, but also a lot of great programs.pitbullpuppy wrote: »I don't know that I'd call any workout program a 'scam.' I did a well-known program a long time ago and did not get the advertised results whatsoever. But I did learn a few effective exercises and was disciplined into exercising six days a week which propelled me into bodybuilding. I wasn't suddenly ripped, but I was motivated. If that plan gets you involved and physically active, whether it works as advertised or not is besides the point because, IMO, whatever it takes to take care of yourself is priceless.
The fact that they lie about results, use long-debunked concepts, and charge $200 notwithstanding?
No. We don't lie about our results. What are you talking about?
We don't use long-debunked concepts, either. Are you talking about the term "ectomorph?" It's just a word that skinny people use to talk about their bodies. We're not talking about William Sheldon's psychology research. And the only reason we use that word is that our readers use it. It's just a slang term among skinny people.
That's pretty much our method. I don't disagree with that at all. We just help people learn how to do it, coach them through the process, teach them how to adjust what they're doing based on their progress (or lack thereof).jseams1234 wrote: »7 years OP. 7 years of majoring in the minors. Imagine just eating at a slight surplus and killing it in the gym.
That runs in my family, too. Both my mother and father were underweight for most of their lives. And in my case, my doctor was the main one urging me to gain weight.brittanystebbins95 wrote: »
My mother is a prime example. 5'1" and 100 lbs soaking wet. Even pregnant, she couldn't gain weight. She wants curves so bad. She hates her body. She's even been prescribed, by a doctor, to move the absolute bare minimum and eat 3000 calories per day. She did this. And lost a pound. She's got a metabolism disorder and cannot gain weight. Its not always down to who's eating more or less.Scam.
Biggest red flag to me is the site uses somatypes to classify people and somatypes have been debunked for years. Also, skinny people do not have faster metabolisms than non-skinny people, they just tend to either eat less or move more.TO the OP: remember that you CAN'T HAVE **FAST** GAIN that is not mostly fat gain. These guys are selling shakes and their program. Some very well researched programs do exist. A number of low cost or free ones are in the 'sticky post" section.
We don't sell shakes or supplements. You might be thinking of Legion Athletics. Some of our clients do use supplements. Protein powder can be handy. Creatine works quite well. But we don't really emphasize supplements. We certainly don't sell them. We focus on training, diet, and lifestyle.
A lot of skinny guys can gain weight quite fast without gaining much fat. Especially as beginners and especially when underweight. (Genetics play into that, too, of course.)
That's one of our oldest articles. It's maybe eight years old, now. There are a lot of changes I want to make to it. It was incredibly helpful to us at the time. I remember being so frustrated that I couldn't bring the barbell down to my chest without my shoulders hurting. My arms were just so long, my rib cage was so narrow. Marco helped me solve that by doing a board press instead and then gradually removing the boards as I built more strength in my shoulder joints. That's a trick that strength coaches will often use with lanky athletes.I haven't read the program, but I will state that I personally wouldn't recommend reading the articles. I glanced over Why Ectomorphs Should Lift a Little Differently and it was mainly garbage filler. Plenty of nocebo content and basically marketing their content that isn't backed by scientific evidence.
More times than not when you see before and after photos, you are not getting the full story.
But is it better to bench press that way? Not really. The goal is to work towards a regular bench press. There's just a learning curve to it for some people, as there was for me.
As for our transformation photos, we've got our story here: https://bonytobeastly.com/the-tale-of-two-ectomorphs/
Nothing crazy, really, we just started hypertrophy training, eating a bulking diet, and adjusting as we went along.nighthawk584 wrote: »so many great free sources and videos online, it's silly to pay for these TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE marketing scams!
Some people like to get their information online for free. Other people like to follow a program and get help along the way. I'm the latter, so we made a program for that latter kind of person.
We also write a ton of free articles, though. We're trying to serve that first sort of person, too.asianambition wrote: »jseams1234 wrote: »7 years OP. 7 years of majoring in the minors. Imagine just eating at a slight surplus and killing it in the gym.
I've been running StrongLifts 5x5 with accessory work since November 2019. When the quarantine hit, I bought a pair of adjustable dumbbells and continued the same workout, just with more reps. Went from 140 lbs to 147 lbs since I started lifting... However, most of it seems to be body fat, as I don't look any more muscular.
Congrats on those seven pounds, man! That's awesome!
I know you're gaining more fat than you'd like, and there's probably something that could be adjusted to solve that—we could look at your protein intake, your sleep, your rate of gain, your consistency, how close to failure you're lifting, and so on—but it sounds like you're off to a really good start
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@ShaneDuquette, I appreciate that you've taken the time to come here and explain some of the material from your site. As an aside, I see that you also have a program for women, "Bony to Bombshell".
I will apologize for saying that there were lies on you site - that was hyperbolic, and an extreme statement I should not make after reading only the teaser marketing material. I remain skeptical of the timelines for some of your before and afters (not your photos personally, but some of the others), but skepticism doesn't merit that extreme a statement (and I do see the "results not necessarily typical" kind of language on the site, which is standard for nearly all such sites).
I still feel the same way, though, about the concepts. When someone is selling an expensive program, I expect a level of accuracy and transparency, including at the teaser/advertising level.
I understand what you're saying about the term "ectomorph" being a slang term that your intended audience uses. But I think that a site focused on educating people should be more precise about terminology, ("some people call us ectomorphs" or "the slang is ectomorph" for example), rather than just using such a deprecated term prominently without qualification.
I feel similarly about the term "metabolism" in your post, with respect to having a fast/slow metabolism. That's an unclarity, an inaccuracy, from a scientific stanpoint: In standard definitions, metabolism would be the life-sustaining biochemical process (most commonly BMR/RMR), not the movement or activity on top of that. Again, I assume you'd say you're using the term the way your intended audience understands it, but I don't think that's the best standard.
As to my last comment, on price: Your program is an expensive program. We could argue whether it's worth it, or not. I won't. Your pricing is your pricing. If someone responds to your teasers/marketing, and purchases it, it's their judgement whether that was a value purchase, or not.
Again: I apologize for the word "lie", I respect that you've come here to calmly and rationally defend your site and program. I still wouldn't recommend it to someone over free or lower-cost resources, until they've at least tried those methods; but that's their decision, not mine.7 -
I lost a much longer reply earlier - so I'll preemptively TL;DR it.
@ShaneDuquette - I have no issues with your program or the results you advertise. I think many people here really don't understand that very underweight men gain exponentially faster at first than normal weight or heavier individuals. I gained over 60# in my first long bulk and a total of 95# in the last five years. Anyhow, I agree with with Ann that some of the language is a bit suspect (somatotypes and use of metabolism) but you do realize that this forum is full of a bunch of pedantic health nerds? lol
My criticism wasn't about your program but of the OP. Maybe something like your program would actually help him as he doesn't seem to be able to prioritize what's important. He's been on here about 8 years now and has made squat for progress as he's been hyper-focused on everything but the basics.6 -
@ShaneDuquette, I appreciate that you've taken the time to come here and explain some of the material from your site. As an aside, I see that you also have a program for women, "Bony to Bombshell".
My pleasure, AnnPT77! And likewise, thank you for your response. Yeah, we doI remain skeptical of the timelines for some of your before and afters (not your photos personally, but some of the others), but skepticism doesn't merit that extreme a statement (and I do see the "results not necessarily typical" kind of language on the site, which is standard for nearly all such sites).
Our program includes coaching in our member community, so what we have people do is post before photos and measurements, they post updates as they go through the program, we give feedback and coaching, and then they post after photos. Some people let us share those after photos. In all cases, though, we're seeing them progress in real-time, from multiple angles, and accumulating over several months. It's not just people emailing us progress photos. These are people we've guided through the program. We're very confident they're real.
Plus, because members gain access to our community, they can all browse through these threads. If someone buys our program inspired by, say, EddiB's progress photos, they can go check out his progress thread and see how he progressed from week to week, month to month, what struggles and questions he had, and so on.
We try to go slightly beyond the standard disclaimer to make it obvious that it's not a legal disclaimer, it's something that we actually want people to know and factor into their decisions and expectations. Instead of saying "results not necessarily typical," we try to say stuff more along the lines of, "keep in mind that everyone's results will look a little different. These are just some examples."
I know it might seem exaggerated, but it's not. I gained twenty pounds during my first three months of bulking. I then helped my skinny roommate gain 33 pounds in three months. We promise twenty pounds in five months. We're promising less than we've personally experienced in our own lives.I still feel the same way, though, about the concepts. When someone is selling an expensive program, I expect a level of accuracy and transparency, including at the teaser/advertising level.
After ten years of coaching naturally skinny people, with around 10,000 members so far, we promise what we truly think is realistic for the average member. We also offer a full refund policy, no conditions. If someone feels like we've exaggerated anything, they're free to get a refund at any point.
Our specialty is helping skinny, underweight people who are still fairly new to lifting. Under those circumstances, people can build muscle quite quickly. And, of course, not all of the weight we gain is muscle—there's also gut contents, fat, extra bone density, and so on.
I agree. That's what we do. For instance, in our hardgainer article (last updated on May 20th), we define ectomorph as "someone with a thin bone structure … It’s also worth noting that “ectomorph” isn’t a scientific term, it’s just used colloquially to describe a skinny body type."I understand what you're saying about the term "ectomorph" being a slang term that your intended audience uses. But I think that a site focused on educating people should be more precise about terminology, ("some people call us ectomorphs" or "the slang is ectomorph" for example), rather than just using such a deprecated term prominently without qualification.I feel similarly about the term "metabolism" in your post, with respect to having a fast/slow metabolism. That's an unclarity, an inaccuracy, from a scientific stanpoint: In standard definitions, metabolism would be the life-sustaining biochemical process (most commonly BMR/RMR), not the movement or activity on top of that. Again, I assume you'd say you're using the term the way your intended audience understands it, but I don't think that's the best standard.
I disagree with you here. The definition I think of with metabolism is: "the chemical processes that occur within a living organism in order to maintain life."
BMR only makes up around 60–70% of our metabolism. There's also NEAT, TEF, EAT. Here's a study showing that breakdown:
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Components-of-total-daily-energy-expenditure-TDEEBMRbasal-metabolic-rate_fig1_260397860
Non-exercise activity thermogenesis (NEAT) is a part of our metabolism, it's a scientific term with a clear definition, and it's been heavily studied. When we say that some hardgainers have an adaptive metabolism that makes it harder to gain weight, that's accurate. And when we talk about it in more depth, we do use the precise term: NEAT.
I hear ya. I'm not asking you to recommend us. It's certainly more than a lot of people want to spend.As to my last comment, on price: Your program is an expensive program. We could argue whether it's worth it, or not. I won't. Your pricing is your pricing. If someone responds to your teasers/marketing, and purchases it, it's their judgement whether that was a value purchase, or not.
Again: I apologize for the word "lie", I respect that you've come here to calmly and rationally defend your site and program. I still wouldn't recommend it to someone over free or lower-cost resources, until they've at least tried those methods; but that's their decision, not mine.
I'd just add that it's not just an eBook. The price is higher because we spend a lot of time coaching people through the program. It's not full online coaching, but we do coach people through the program in the member community. Not everyone wants to post their progress photos, not everyone has questions, but we invest a tremendous amount of time into making sure that no question goes unanswered, no member is failing to make progress, and everyone has the help and support they need to achieve the results that we promise.
It's an expensive program because we take customer support extremely seriously, and that takes a lot of our time. That's not worth it to everyone, but it's what I would have wanted, and it's the part of our program that we get the most positive feedback on.
Again, I really appreciate your response 2 -
jseams1234 wrote: »@ShaneDuquette - I have no issues with your program or the results you advertise. I think many people here really don't understand that very underweight men gain exponentially faster at first than normal weight or heavier individuals. I gained over 60# in my first long bulk and a total of 95# in the last five years.
That's awesome, man! 95 pounds!!!!
I know. It can definitely sound crazy. We try to hedge it whenever possible. "We can probably help you build muscle this fast IF you're a skinny guy, underweight, under-muscled." We have programs for intermediate lifters too, and with them, we don't make any promises about rates of weight/muscle gain whatsoever. We just promise that we'll do our best to help them make steady and measurable progress, you know?jseams1234 wrote: »@ShaneDuquette - I have no issues with your program or the results you advertise. I think many people here really don't understand that very underweight men gain exponentially faster at first than normal weight or heavier individuals. I gained over 60# in my first long bulk and a total of 95# in the last five years. Anyhow, I agree with with Ann that some of the language is a bit suspect (somatotypes and use of metabolism) but you do realize that this forum is full of a bunch of pedantic health nerds? lol
I'm a pedantic health nerd myself, so I definitely hear ya on that. "Ectomorph" was the first term I learned that helped me find information tailored to skinny people who were trying to gain weight. I finally found information that was more than "Oh, you're having trouble gaining weight? Just eat more!"
But yeah, I realize it's not a scientific term. We try to mention that as often as possible. For instance, as mentioned above, in a recent article we do say "It’s also worth noting that 'ectomorph' isn’t a scientific term, it’s just used colloquially to describe a skinny body type."
We're trying to meet people where they are and help them progress, you know? Part of that means using terms that skinny guys use colloquially and then teaching them the correct ones. Plus, I don't think using the term ectomorph to describe a naturally thin body type is incorrect. The debunked part of somatotypes is the psychology part, not the part about some people being naturally thin.
And, as mentioned in my response to AnnPT77, I do defend our use of the word metabolism, though. We aren't just using slang. NEAT is highly adaptive, varies from person to person, and can make up a large part of our daily energy expenditure—a large part of our metabolism.
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Components-of-total-daily-energy-expenditure-TDEEBMRbasal-metabolic-rate_fig1_260397860
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15681386/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12468415/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11101470/2 -
ShaneDuquette wrote: »jseams1234 wrote: »@ShaneDuquette - I have no issues with your program or the results you advertise. I think many people here really don't understand that very underweight men gain exponentially faster at first than normal weight or heavier individuals. I gained over 60# in my first long bulk and a total of 95# in the last five years.
That's awesome, man! 95 pounds!!!!
I know. It can definitely sound crazy. We try to hedge it whenever possible. "We can probably help you build muscle this fast IF you're a skinny guy, underweight, under-muscled." We have programs for intermediate lifters too, and with them, we don't make any promises about rates of weight/muscle gain whatsoever. We just promise that we'll do our best to help them make steady and measurable progress, you know?
Thanks, I'll admit that me getting down to 130 (I'm 6'1) was because of a long illness and the subsequent treatment. I had been much bigger previous to that so a bit of my gains were probably muscle memory. However, I spent all of my teen years and into my thirties extremely thin so I fully understand the struggle.
Anyhow, I really like that you showed up and responded to this thread. I really did enjoy the story here: https://bonytobeastly.com/the-tale-of-two-ectomorphs/ and I didn't see anything unreasonable with the progress photos or the information. Nice realistic transformations... much more realistic than what a lot of people around here seem to expect. You would be surprised by how many people new to lifting think that a few years in the gym = the Rock.
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jseams1234 wrote: »I lost a much longer reply earlier - so I'll preemptively TL;DR it.
@ShaneDuquette - I have no issues with your program or the results you advertise. I think many people here really don't understand that very underweight men gain exponentially faster at first than normal weight or heavier individuals. I gained over 60# in my first long bulk and a total of 95# in the last five years. Anyhow, I agree with with Ann that some of the language is a bit suspect (somatotypes and use of metabolism) but you do realize that this forum is full of a bunch of pedantic health nerds? lol
My criticism wasn't about your program but of the OP. Maybe something like your program would actually help him as he doesn't seem to be able to prioritize what's important. He's been on here about 8 years now and has made squat for progress as he's been hyper-focused on everything but the basics.
I actually bought the program a week ago, after you guys told me that it was a scam.
Unfortunately, I spent most of those 8 years trying to figure out what was wrong with my body (would experience pain in my left arm and leg after working out). It wasn't until I went through like 100 physiotherapists that I saw an osteopath who told me that I had a rotated pelvis and scapular dyskinesis. With the help of his prescribed exercises, I was able to alleviate the pain that I experienced after working out.
So in November 2019, I started running StrongLifts + accessory work, but wasn't happy with the results after 6 months of eating and lifting heavy (7 lbs weight gain but little to no muscle gain).
I figured that I wasn't eating enough, wasn't eating right, or wasn't running the right program.
Now that I started the Bony to Beastly program, I'm going to stick with it. Probably going to stop posting on here for the most part as well, since I now have access to a forum with former skinny guys as mentors.3 -
asianambition wrote: »jseams1234 wrote: »I lost a much longer reply earlier - so I'll preemptively TL;DR it.
@ShaneDuquette - I have no issues with your program or the results you advertise. I think many people here really don't understand that very underweight men gain exponentially faster at first than normal weight or heavier individuals. I gained over 60# in my first long bulk and a total of 95# in the last five years. Anyhow, I agree with with Ann that some of the language is a bit suspect (somatotypes and use of metabolism) but you do realize that this forum is full of a bunch of pedantic health nerds? lol
My criticism wasn't about your program but of the OP. Maybe something like your program would actually help him as he doesn't seem to be able to prioritize what's important. He's been on here about 8 years now and has made squat for progress as he's been hyper-focused on everything but the basics.
I actually bought the program a week ago, after you guys told me that it was a scam.
Unfortunately, I spent most of those 8 years trying to figure out what was wrong with my body (would experience pain in my left arm and leg after working out). It wasn't until I went through like 100 physiotherapists that I saw an osteopath who told me that I had a rotated pelvis and scapular dyskinesis. With the help of his prescribed exercises, I was able to alleviate the pain that I experienced after working out.
So in November 2019, I started running StrongLifts + accessory work, but wasn't happy with the results after 6 months of eating and lifting heavy (7 lbs weight gain but little to no muscle gain).
I figured that I wasn't eating enough, wasn't eating right, or wasn't running the right program.
Now that I started the Bony to Beastly program, I'm going to stick with it. Probably going to stop posting on here for the most part as well, since I now have access to a forum with former skinny guys as mentors.
I'd observe that it would be helpful for others if you'd report back, eventually, on this thread. That's true whether you have good results, or not so good results, after several months to years.
Sincerely, I wish you nothing but good results. I hope the program give you everything you're looking for, and I look forward to seeing your review. I love to see people find the path they need, and achieve their goals. Best of wishes!2 -
I have to say that I am positively impressed with @ShaneDuquette 's explanation of his program and of the fact that his material has evolved over time.
People do change their view points as they learn. And that's good. I once believed, for about 4 hours, that Scooby's site was full of bro-science. And while Scooby may be a bro (in a good way); his site is way closer to science than bro science!
So I am glad to hear that your site is evolving even if all the material has yet to be updated to reflect your current views.
That said, when I see a shake and a somatotype (or equivalent info) on page one of a site, I personally choose to move on.
As per your testimony, it appears that doing so is sometimes at my loss! But there is only so much time, and some of the baby does get dumped out together with the bathwater!
Since you appear to be curious, I was partially thinking of rp, but their offerings are substantially more expensive than yours.
That said I would be remiss not to mention that @psuLemon on this site has written a couple of excellent "sticky" posts directly addressing both "hard-gainers" and "programming".
The OP, in previous conversations, appears to have just stuck to 5x5 and to have over-done his surplus. Both of these could be addressed if that's what he wanted.
That said, there is NOTHING wrong with purchasing qualified advice if one can afford to do so and in aid to one's reasonable goals.
I am glad that in spite of my concerns about your offerings based on the initial read of your site, your "in person" discourse offers the likelihood that your actual offering will exceed the expectations established by that first read!3 -
I have to say that I am positively impressed with @ShaneDuquette 's explanation of his program and of the fact that his material has evolved over time.
People do change their view points as they learn. And that's good. I once believed, for about 4 hours, that Scooby's site was full of bro-science. And while Scooby may be a bro (in a good way); his site is way closer to science than bro science!
So I am glad to hear that your site is evolving even if all the material has yet to be updated to reflect your current views.
That said, when I see a shake and a somatotype (or equivalent info) on page one of a site, I personally choose to move on.
As per your testimony, it appears that doing so is sometimes at my loss! But there is only so much time, and some of the baby does get dumped out together with the bathwater!
Since you appear to be curious, I was partially thinking of rp, but their offerings are substantially more expensive than yours.
That said I would be remiss not to mention that @psuLemon on this site has written a couple of excellent "sticky" posts directly addressing both "hard-gainers" and "programming".
The OP, in previous conversations, appears to have just stuck to 5x5 and to have over-done his surplus. Both of these could be addressed if that's what he wanted.
That said, there is NOTHING wrong with purchasing qualified advice if one can afford to do so and in aid to one's reasonable goals.
I am glad that in spite of my concerns about your offerings based on the initial read of your site, your "in person" discourse offers the likelihood that your actual offering will exceed the expectations established by that first read!
I only gained 7 lbs in 6 months of doing 5x5, most of it body fat, so I definitely didn't overdo my surplus. I think where I went wrong was consuming too much fat. Like I'm reading Shane's e-book right now and he says that fat is more likely than carbs to be stored as body fat, so you shouldn't exceed 30% fat a day. However, there were some days where I was eating close to 45% in fat (despite consuming enough protein).2 -
What was your macro breakdown over the whole time period, not just an occasional day?
How many grams per lb of protein were you eating? Total grams of carbs?
How did you conclude that most of your gain was body fat?0 -
asianambition wrote: »I only gained 7 lbs in 6 months of doing 5x5, most of it body fat, so I definitely didn't overdo my surplus. I think where I went wrong was consuming too much fat. Like I'm reading Shane's e-book right now and he says that fat is more likely than carbs to be stored as body fat, so you shouldn't exceed 30% fat a day. However, there were some days where I was eating close to 45% in fat (despite consuming enough protein).
I'm not sure that simple getting carb and fat macros wrong would result in gaining seven pounds of mostly fat. It might be the difference between gaining 80% muscle vs 75% muscle, and that can matter, but I think there's something else going on there, too.
I'd look at protein intake long before looking at carb and fat macros, but since you've already done that, I'd want to run through a list of more important first though: were you lifting hard enough (e.g. enough volume, going close enough to failure), were you consistent with your surplus (did you gain 0 pounds one week, 2 pounds the next?), and were you getting enough good sleep?
We also want to make sure that the training stimulus is sufficient. Is StrongLifts the one that starts with lifting just the barbell? That might not have been enough to stimulate a robust amount of muscle growth. After all, stopping a set five reps shy of failure instead of two reps shy of failure can produce a rather different growth stimulus. So if the weight isn't heavy enough to challenge you, that might cause a problem with muscle growth. I'm not sure how you were approaching it, but even just having a more rigorous training routine geared specifically towards gaining muscle size might solve it. (Although adding accessory lifts to StrongLifts sounds like a reasonable approach.)
If you want to take some videos and post them in the community, we can also take a look at your lifting technique and make sure that you're doing the big compound lifts properlyasianambition wrote: »jseams1234 wrote: »I actually bought the program a week ago, after you guys told me that it was a scam.
That's awesome! We can help you troubleshoot in the community
Let me go check out your thread and we can get to the bottom of it there.2
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