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Why do people keep defending sugar?
Replies
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The only issue with refined added sugar is how easy it is to over consume. You just have to be aware and adjust your consumption accordingly. At the end of the day, if you feel it's bad for you then don't eat it, no one cares. Just don't make it out to be something it is not.
Remember, too much of anything is bad, even water...7 -
My personal issue with sugar is that is seems to create cravings for more sugar in me. I definitely feel better when I am limiting its use - but I am also trying to operate of a calorie deficit, so that I don't have that same calorie requirement so some others do. Limiting my sugar makes it easier for me to keep my calories down and cravings under control.
I do, however, love my fruit. I tend to have a rather large plate of it (cherries, strawberries, blueberries, some grapes) after dinner....I am not sure if this is actually a bad idea or not. Is it particularly detrimental at night? Or is the natural sugar okay? I think I am overdoing it on the fruit, probably. How much is too much?0 -
tradercourt1 wrote: »My personal issue with sugar is that is seems to create cravings for more sugar in me. I definitely feel better when I am limiting its use - but I am also trying to operate of a calorie deficit, so that I don't have that same calorie requirement so some others do. Limiting my sugar makes it easier for me to keep my calories down and cravings under control.
I do, however, love my fruit. I tend to have a rather large plate of it (cherries, strawberries, blueberries, some grapes) after dinner....I am not sure if this is actually a bad idea or not. Is it particularly detrimental at night? Or is the natural sugar okay? I think I am overdoing it on the fruit, probably. How much is too much?
Do you find yourself unable to hit your protein goal or stay within your calorie goal specifically because of fruits? If so, that's too much, if not, no food is too much (including sugar) unless it's affecting your health or interfering with a goal.6 -
tradercourt1 wrote: »My personal issue with sugar is that is seems to create cravings for more sugar in me. I definitely feel better when I am limiting its use - but I am also trying to operate of a calorie deficit, so that I don't have that same calorie requirement so some others do. Limiting my sugar makes it easier for me to keep my calories down and cravings under control.
I do, however, love my fruit. I tend to have a rather large plate of it (cherries, strawberries, blueberries, some grapes) after dinner....I am not sure if this is actually a bad idea or not. Is it particularly detrimental at night? Or is the natural sugar okay? I think I am overdoing it on the fruit, probably. How much is too much?
Out of curiosity, which foods in particular create the sugar cravings?
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tradercourt1 wrote: »My personal issue with sugar is that is seems to create cravings for more sugar in me. I definitely feel better when I am limiting its use - but I am also trying to operate of a calorie deficit, so that I don't have that same calorie requirement so some others do. Limiting my sugar makes it easier for me to keep my calories down and cravings under control.
I do, however, love my fruit. I tend to have a rather large plate of it (cherries, strawberries, blueberries, some grapes) after dinner....I am not sure if this is actually a bad idea or not. Is it particularly detrimental at night? Or is the natural sugar okay? I think I am overdoing it on the fruit, probably. How much is too much?
If you are able to hit your calorie, protein, fat, and fiber goals and aren't struggling with hunger, then it's not too much.
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Out of curiosity, which foods in particular create the sugar cravings?
I'm gonna answer for her so she doesn't get jumped on.
I'm guessing added sugars lead to compulsive eating - like with so many people. Yes, sometimes there is fat involved, but not always. I'll just get that out of the way.2 -
cmriverside wrote: »
I'm gonna answer for her so she doesn't get jumped on.
I'm guessing added sugars lead to compulsive eating - like with so many people. Yes, sometimes there is fat involved, but not always. I'll just get that out of the way.
If I had a science crystal ball, one of the things I would love to study would be the science of cravings. While I believe the magical combo of carbs/fat/low-fiber is as close to a holy grail of cravings-causer as there is (because it was literally designed to do that), on a personal level cravings seem to me to be a bizarre combination of biology, psychology, and habit. Some people say sweetened drinks make them hungry, others say they actually satisfy a snack craving and keep them from eating too much. I eat one peanut and something triggers in my brain to eat anything not nailed down in my apartment, others say a handful of nuts will satisfy them so much they might forget to eat their next meal.
Anyway, I'm fascinated by it
And that posters large plate of fruit habit is making me crave the nectarines and cherries I bought yesterday that are sitting in the fridge!11 -
If I had a science crystal ball, one of the things I would love to study would be the science of cravings. While I believe the magical combo of carbs/fat/low-fiber is as close to a holy grail of cravings-causer as there is (because it was literally designed to do that), on a personal level cravings seem to me to be a bizarre combination of biology, psychology, and habit. Some people say sweetened drinks make them hungry, others say they actually satisfy a snack craving and keep them from eating too much. I eat one peanut and something triggers in my brain to eat anything not nailed down in my apartment, others say a handful of nuts will satisfy them so much they might forget to eat their next meal.
Anyway, I'm fascinated by it
And that posters large plate of fruit habit is making me crave the nectarines and cherries I bought yesterday that are sitting in the fridge!
Funny you should say that.
Yesterday my "dinner" was habenero lime pistachios and Raisinettes. 700 calories, or the entire pack of both. Pretty good macros, and it didn't put me over on anything except fat. I had already had a monster salad and some protein oatmeal with a banana so my day ended just fine. I haven't done that since the middle of June, so it was a little mini-vacay.
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If I had a science crystal ball, one of the things I would love to study would be the science of cravings. While I believe the magical combo of carbs/fat/low-fiber is as close to a holy grail of cravings-causer as there is (because it was literally designed to do that), on a personal level cravings seem to me to be a bizarre combination of biology, psychology, and habit. Some people say sweetened drinks make them hungry, others say they actually satisfy a snack craving and keep them from eating too much. I eat one peanut and something triggers in my brain to eat anything not nailed down in my apartment, others say a handful of nuts will satisfy them so much they might forget to eat their next meal.
Anyway, I'm fascinated by it
And that posters large plate of fruit habit is making me crave the nectarines and cherries I bought yesterday that are sitting in the fridge!
I have this same issue with peanut butter - I eat one spoonful and it's open season on the rest of the jar... fruit and other sweets, meh. An occasional piece of candy, a handful of blueberries or a banana and I'm good. As I have said before in the thread, sweets (read sugar), are not my downfall... savory foods on the other hand...3 -
I have this same issue with peanut butter - I eat one spoonful and it's open season on the rest of the jar... fruit and other sweets, meh. An occasional piece of candy, a handful of blueberries or a banana and I'm good. As I have said before in the thread, sweets (read sugar), are not my downfall... savory foods on the other hand...
Any kind of savory cracker is my kryptonite. I can eat a piece of candy and be fine. If I buy a pint of ice cream, I can have a serving and sometimes forget the rest of it for weeks. I regularly eat one ounce of potato or tortilla chips and feel happy and satisfied.
If I open a box of Wheat Thins or Triscuits, I'm either eating the whole thing or literally throwing the box away so that I don't eat them all. There's no in-between. I recently gave myself another chance after about a year of not having crackers, thinking maybe I'd gained more control. Nope. I would even tell you that I like potato chips more than crackers, but my behavior makes it clear that isn't truly the case!1 -
If I had a science crystal ball, one of the things I would love to study would be the science of cravings. While I believe the magical combo of carbs/fat/low-fiber is as close to a holy grail of cravings-causer as there is (because it was literally designed to do that), on a personal level cravings seem to me to be a bizarre combination of biology, psychology, and habit. Some people say sweetened drinks make them hungry, others say they actually satisfy a snack craving and keep them from eating too much. I eat one peanut and something triggers in my brain to eat anything not nailed down in my apartment, others say a handful of nuts will satisfy them so much they might forget to eat their next meal.
Anyway, I'm fascinated by it
And that posters large plate of fruit habit is making me crave the nectarines and cherries I bought yesterday that are sitting in the fridge!
I have this same issue with peanut butter - I eat one spoonful and it's open season on the rest of the jar... fruit and other sweets, meh. An occasional piece of candy, a handful of blueberries or a banana and I'm good. As I have said before in the thread, sweets (read sugar), are not my downfall... savory foods on the other hand...
I'm that weird person who knows a 3000 calorie day eminent at the sight of any type of whole nuts but can calmly have a small peanut butter jar in the fridge for an entire month. Ice cream? I've had a family tub in the freezer for so long it's starting to get icy, and it's a flavor I really like, but give me dates and I won't rest until they're gone. Can't have Nutella in the house, but a 35 piece mini truffle bag has been sitting on my desk for 3 weeks.
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If I had a science crystal ball, one of the things I would love to study would be the science of cravings. While I believe the magical combo of carbs/fat/low-fiber is as close to a holy grail of cravings-causer as there is (because it was literally designed to do that), on a personal level cravings seem to me to be a bizarre combination of biology, psychology, and habit. Some people say sweetened drinks make them hungry, others say they actually satisfy a snack craving and keep them from eating too much. I eat one peanut and something triggers in my brain to eat anything not nailed down in my apartment, others say a handful of nuts will satisfy them so much they might forget to eat their next meal.
Anyway, I'm fascinated by it
And that posters large plate of fruit habit is making me crave the nectarines and cherries I bought yesterday that are sitting in the fridge!
My guess on the bolded is that it's largely (though not all) 1 of 2 things: [1] It occupies the hands, mouth in possible times of 'boredom snacking' (you're not otherwise actively doing something and food is there in front of you), and/or [2] some people will get hunger cues when they are actually just thirsty.1 -
If I had a science crystal ball, one of the things I would love to study would be the science of cravings. While I believe the magical combo of carbs/fat/low-fiber is as close to a holy grail of cravings-causer as there is (because it was literally designed to do that), on a personal level cravings seem to me to be a bizarre combination of biology, psychology, and habit. Some people say sweetened drinks make them hungry, others say they actually satisfy a snack craving and keep them from eating too much. I eat one peanut and something triggers in my brain to eat anything not nailed down in my apartment, others say a handful of nuts will satisfy them so much they might forget to eat their next meal.
Anyway, I'm fascinated by it
And that posters large plate of fruit habit is making me crave the nectarines and cherries I bought yesterday that are sitting in the fridge!
Possible addition to that: salt. Especially at times when elecrolytes are needed (pork rinds, for instance: protein/fat/salt). and nuts, as often packaged. Cheese, a weakness of mine, is in the fat-salt-protein grouping, as well. And many crackers tend to be salty.0 -
Even ice cream.. for me it is totally not the same without the cone. (I'll skip an ice cream shop if no cones when I'm craving an ice cream cone).0
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Possible addition to that: salt. Especially at times when elecrolytes are needed (pork rinds, for instance: protein/fat/salt). and nuts, as often packaged. Cheese, a weakness of mine, is in the fat-salt-protein grouping, as well. And many crackers tend to be salty.
Yes, salt is a biggie for me, cravings-wise. (Occasionally in the past, it's set up a sensory-specific craving cycle alternating salty/sweet/salty/sweet, but that's not really a problem anymore - not sure why.)
Salt in large quantities is not fabulous health-wise, but there's not so much extreme demonization of it here (that I've seen) for some reason. Not as common a craving? Not as profitable a target for demonization by internet marketers, because one can't claim it packs on the fat? Dunno.
Happily for me, there are a bunch of low-calorie treats that are salty, like pickles, sauerkraut, cucumber slices with herb salt, etc. On occasion, I've even just eaten a shake or two of salt, straight from the salt shaker . . . I haven't seen many people say the analogous thing about a sugar bowl, though I'm sure it's true for some.2 -
pickled beets are favorite of mine.5
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If I had a science crystal ball, one of the things I would love to study would be the science of cravings. While I believe the magical combo of carbs/fat/low-fiber is as close to a holy grail of cravings-causer as there is (because it was literally designed to do that), on a personal level cravings seem to me to be a bizarre combination of biology, psychology, and habit. Some people say sweetened drinks make them hungry, others say they actually satisfy a snack craving and keep them from eating too much. I eat one peanut and something triggers in my brain to eat anything not nailed down in my apartment, others say a handful of nuts will satisfy them so much they might forget to eat their next meal.
Anyway, I'm fascinated by it
And that posters large plate of fruit habit is making me crave the nectarines and cherries I bought yesterday that are sitting in the fridge!
https://www.amazon.com/Hungry-Brain-Outsmarting-Instincts-Overeat/dp/125008119X
https://www.amazon.com/Salt-Sugar-Fat-Michael-Moss-audiobook/dp/B00B4G0MMK
Those two are pretty good about it.2 -
My husband and I lost our first baby to a heart condition so when we had our miracle baby they wanted to do all sorts of tests. The so called "cardiologist" did not know what trans fat was....it came up in conversation about my husbands weight loss.
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If I had a science crystal ball, one of the things I would love to study would be the science of cravings. While I believe the magical combo of carbs/fat/low-fiber is as close to a holy grail of cravings-causer as there is (because it was literally designed to do that), on a personal level cravings seem to me to be a bizarre combination of biology, psychology, and habit. Some people say sweetened drinks make them hungry, others say they actually satisfy a snack craving and keep them from eating too much. I eat one peanut and something triggers in my brain to eat anything not nailed down in my apartment, others say a handful of nuts will satisfy them so much they might forget to eat their next meal.
Anyway, I'm fascinated by it
And that posters large plate of fruit habit is making me crave the nectarines and cherries I bought yesterday that are sitting in the fridge!
You said, "a handful of nuts." Sorry, I'm chuckling like a 12 year old... I guess some of us guys never grow up.
Onto the serious topic. I think what "cravings" we have are very cultural. Such as: A person from France may think Chinese Pepper Chicken is disgusting, just as a person from China may think French Stinky cheese is horrid. I have little doubt that our preferences are made in childhood to a point. I also think that the longer SOME of us stay away of these "binge" foods, the less of a hold it has on us.3 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »
Actually read them both sir. Ok, Audible. Dr. Guyenet is brilliant. I would also suggest https://www.amazon.com/End-Overeating-Insatiable-American-Appetite-ebook/dp/B0025VKJNA
Dr. Guyenet actually uses some of this book as a basis for his. I am actually a member of the HumanOS.me platform. They have a program called the Ideal Weight Program. It was designed by Stephan Guyenet.0 -
Realistically, what is someone supposed to do, in circumstances like yours, according to those who feel added sugar should always be avoided?
Activity needs to be fueled, or weight loss will occur, and not everyone is overweight. (Even overweight people aren't best served by always *maximimizng* deficit.) The fueling point is acute, for long-endurance exercise, since fuel will be needed en route, given limitations on muscle glycogen, and such.
Most people find protein rather filling. Eating a couple of thousand calories of extra protein . . . well, it could be done, but I don't think it would be comfortable in an exercise context. Wouldn't that be like 5 pounds of cooked chicken breast? Whole fruit or vegetables, ditto, except more volume to get that number of calories, since the fiber doesn't contribute to fueling. Fats are calorie dense, but the combination of high fat intake with hearty exercise is a really bad one for many people (most would need a lot of porta-potties on the route). A couple thousand calories of fat would be nearly *half a pound* of fat (coconut oil, or whatever), if I did the math right. I grant that one could go with partly fat, partly whole-food carbs, partly protein . . . but it's still a lot of food volume, potentially with bad consequences for digestive ease.
Non-filling, non-digestion-challenging carbs seem like an obvious solution for long-endurance activities. And sugar is kind of the ultimate non-filling, non-digestion-challenging carb.
So, to the folks who argue we should avoid added sugar religiously: What should an endurance athlete eat, during an endurance activity, to get a couple of thousand extra calories, in a practical way? Do you (sugar avoider) do long endurance activity (multi-hour, fairly intense)? What do you do en route for calorie intake?
These are 100% sincere questions.
Unless you are keto adapted I would think you would bonk hard eventually, since digestion of fat and protein isn’t fast enough to fuel a run. Keto endurance athletes don’t need to consume fats during a run, their bodies break down their existing fat, which people have plenty of unless they are literally starving.
Interesting side note, a study on ultra runners found that their brain mass temporarily dropped after a multi-day ultra. The brain is mostly fat and water.0 -
What's ironic to me is when ketoers talk so much about the evil of sugar and inflammation when KETONES are acidic.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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It would be interesting to have some structured attitude/habit data about "sugar defenders" and "sugar demonizers", if one could pick out representatives from these extremes of the attitudinal continuum, as represented here on MFP. (Note that last clause, and please don't respond as if I didn't include it.
)
I'm thinking about questions - subjective questions - like "do your trigger foods or hard-to-moderate foods include cookies, chocolate bars, cake, potato chips, pizza, cheese" - long list of common challenging foods. Also, questions like "what was your diet like before making changes that relate to your using MFP" (if any such changes), which obviously is self-report so also effectively subjectiv - maybe multiple choice styles, or estimation of how often various foods eaten. Plus, some more objective things, for those who log on MFP, like daily sugar, carb, protein, fiber gram counts; maybe rough count of average daily fruit/veg/whole grain servings; calorie goal; actual net/gross calories consumed on average; BMI; body fat percent if known; maybe some data about how long using MFP, how long at current bodyweight, highest previous bodyweight, etc..
I'm not asking anyone to answer these things, BTW - that's kind of pointless. But it would be interesting to have a structured survey.
You may believe that I have a presumed outcome, which I really don't . . . other than a presumption that "defenders" don't, as some few "demonizers" seem to presume, universally consume large amounts of sugar, carbs, highly processed foods, etc. And I have to admit that some of my assumption we wouldn't see that "sugar defender = high sugar/processed food consumer" thing is because I've been here long enough to have a general understanding of how some of the "defenders" eat, access to some of their food logs here. etc.
Purely anecdotally, there have been a few threads (not this one) in the past, where someone pretty much starts a thread demonizing sugar or highly processed foods or some similar dietary cause, and who turns out to have an open diary. It's only been a tiny number of cases - could count on the fingers of one hand - but so far those "demonizers" I've looked at were not eating dramatically differently, and not dramatically better, than the "defenders". No way to know how much of a change the current way of eating is for anyone, vs. previous, though, except when they offered anecdotal evidence.
In that limited number of cases, the differences seem more to be differences of attitude/rhetoric, not huge differences in current eating style. It's tempting to believe that the defender/demonizer continuum is more about habits of mind - I say that without prejudice against either set of such habits, BTW - than about habits of eating. But I don't really have enough information to know. (I don't like drawing big conclusions without at least some limited data, and preferably more basis than that.)
Just musing.8 -
My personal observation is that humans as a whole are contrarians, and that's all I have to say about that.7
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cmriverside wrote: »My personal observation is that humans as a whole are contrarians, and that's all I have to say about that.
Am not..... 6 -
rheddmobile wrote: »
Keto endurance athletes don’t need to consume fats during a run, their bodies break down their existing fat, which people have plenty of unless they are literally starving.
Non-keto endurance athletes are breaking down existing fat too - and if endurance probably a greater than 50% supply of it.
But are you thinking there is no muscle-stored glycogen being used at all, just fat and ketones, for keto endurance athlete?
You do have me wondering though, I've not read up on how ketone fuel source would show up on normal vo2max test for instance. I'm guessing it would be as fat since that is the metabolized source.
But lactic acid usage doesn't show up either except through blood analysis.2 -
rheddmobile wrote: »
Unless you are keto adapted I would think you would bonk hard eventually, since digestion of fat and protein isn’t fast enough to fuel a run. Keto endurance athletes don’t need to consume fats during a run, their bodies break down their existing fat, which people have plenty of unless they are literally starving.
Interesting side note, a study on ultra runners found that their brain mass temporarily dropped after a multi-day ultra. The brain is mostly fat and water.
Sure. That's pretty much why I'm asking.
If someone is a long-endurance athlete, and doesn't want to bonk, vomit, or get diarrhea during long events . . . what do people who are very anti-sugar (but not keto) use as a fueling strategy? Or, if they're not themselves long-endurance athletes, what fueling strategy do they suggest for people who are, so as to avoid consuming added sugar?
I suspect that there are relatively few non-keto, very anti-sugar long-endurance athletes, but that's speculation on my part, not knowledge. And even if those who consider added sugar absolutely to be avoided aren't themselves long-endurance athletes, I'd still like to hear what they'd suggest, even though hearing from people who do do long endurance activities while avoiding added sugar would be even better.
(For truth in advertising: I'm not a long-endurance athlete, never have been. I've been a short-endurance athlete - yeah, that's a thing - but am a little more lackadaisical now. My only longer-endurance activities (such as endurance trainng sessions) haven't really been a bonking risk for a variety of reasons. I'm still interested in how people think about this, and how their results have played out, if they have applied experience.)0 -
My trigger food is... (sorry)... raw carrots. Can take or leave every other food including chocolate (which I love), cakes, biscuits, ice cream, crisps etc. But put a bowl of raw carrots in front of me and I cannot stop 🤷♂️3
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claireychn074 wrote: »My trigger food is... (sorry)... raw carrots. Can take or leave every other food including chocolate (which I love), cakes, biscuits, ice cream, crisps etc. But put a bowl of raw carrots in front of me and I cannot stop 🤷♂️
Well, yeah. They're loaded with sugar.3
This discussion has been closed.
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